hainrih biolis fondSi 2010 wlis 2 ivniss gamarTuli sajaro diskusia ...
hainrih biolis fondSi 2010 wlis 2 ivniss gamarTuli sajaro diskusia ...
hainrih biolis fondSi 2010 wlis 2 ivniss gamarTuli sajaro diskusia ...
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<strong>hainrih</strong> <strong>biolis</strong> <strong>fondSi</strong> <strong>2010</strong> <strong>wlis</strong><br />
2 <strong>ivniss</strong> <strong>gamarTuli</strong> <strong>sajaro</strong> <strong>diskusia</strong> Temaze:<br />
`saqarTvelo-ruseTis urTierTobebi: dialogis<br />
aRdgenis perspeqtivebi ~<br />
ZiriTadi momxseneblebi:<br />
irakli menaRariSvili _ strategiul<br />
gamokvlevaTa centri, direqtori<br />
daviT zurabiSvili _ `respublikuri partiis~<br />
wevri<br />
ramaz sayvareliZe _ politologi<br />
moderacia: zviad qoriZe
zviad qoriZe _ mogesalmebiT. dRes <strong>biolis</strong> <strong>fondSi</strong> tradiciuli sadiskusio<br />
dRea. Tema, romelic sadiskusiod SeirCa, sakmaod aqtualuria, yovel SemTxvevaSi,<br />
ase miaCniaT mis organizatorebs, Tumca radgan gvewvieT, es imaze metyvelebs, rom es<br />
Tema TqvenTvisac sainteresoa. SesaZloa igi mTlad ar Seesatyviseba postsaarCevno<br />
ganwyobebs, Tumca SesaZloa am konteqstSic davinaxoT saqarTvelo-ruseTis<br />
urTierTobebi. aris Tu ara am urTierTobebis Secvlis, gaumjobesebis resursi, an ra<br />
perspeqtivebi gaaCnia saqarTvelosa da ruseTis Semdgom TanamSromlobas da<br />
Tanaarsebobas.<br />
warmogidgenT Cvens momxseneblebs: irakli menaRariSvili gaxlavT strategiul<br />
gamokvlevaTa centris direqtori, ramaz sayvareliZe _ politologi da daviT<br />
zurabiSvili _ `respublikuri partiis~ wevri. jer momxseneblebs movuminoT da<br />
Semdeg davsvaT SekiTxvebi.<br />
ivliane xaindrava, `respublikuri partiis~ wevri _ dRevandeli diskusiis<br />
organizatorebisgan Tu iyo mcdeloba, dakavSirebodiT da mogewviaT xelisuflebis<br />
warmomadgenlebi, iqneb aexsnaT ra mosazrebebiT xelmZRvanelobdnen, rodesac saqme<br />
aqamde miiyvanes. da meore mxriv, Tu gicdiaT dakavSireba magaliTad, zurab<br />
noRaidelTan, romelic uSualo monawilea imisi, rac miviReT da axla aqvs<br />
saidumlo, rogor moagvaros ruseTTan urTierToba.<br />
zviad qoriZe _ xelisuflebis warmomadgenlebTan iyo molaparakebebi, zurab<br />
noRaidels, rogorc vici, organizatorebi ar dakavSirebian.<br />
xaTuna murRulia _ Cven dRes gvsurda eqspertTa mosazrebebi mogvesmina. ar<br />
gvindoda <strong>diskusia</strong>s mwvave politikuri elferi hqonoda.<br />
zviad qoriZe _ es aris Tema, romelzec piradad mec Zalian bevr sadiskusio<br />
sivrceSi mimiRia uari xelisuflebis warmomadgenlebisagan, imitom rom erTi mxriv,<br />
es ar aris Tema, romelzec SeiZleba visaubroT <strong>sajaro</strong>d, da meore _ visaubroT<br />
axla, imitom rom es Tema ar aris aqtualuri. Tumca, aris Tu ara aqtualuri, es<br />
kidev sakamaToa.<br />
movusminoT Cvens momxseneblebs.<br />
irakli menaRariSvili _ Tema imdenad mravalferovania, rom Cveni dRevandeli<br />
Sexvedra, albaT yvela moTxovnas da survils verc daakmayofilebs. erTi SexvedriT<br />
am Temis amowurva SeuZlebeli iqneba, magram Cvens sazogadoebas da qveyanas aseTi<br />
saxis diskusiebi aklia. amitom dRevandeli Sexvedra mniSvnelovnad mimaCnia.<br />
neba momeciT gagaxsenoT zogierTi mosazreba am problemasTan dakavSirebiT. am<br />
mosazrebaTagan bevri SesaZloa, TqvenTvis cnobilic iyos. me mogaxsenebT im<br />
mosazrebebs, romlebsac Tavad viziareb da romlebsac Cemi kolegebi da partniorebi<br />
iziareben. Semdeg, imedi maqvs, gveqneba azrTa gacvla-gamocvlis SesaZlebloba, raTa<br />
zogierT sakiTxTan dakavSirebiT gaviRrmavoT Cveni Sexedulebebi.<br />
2
asTan gvqonda saqme 2008 <strong>wlis</strong> agvistoSi, ras warmoadgenda qarTul-rusuli<br />
urTierTobis dinamika ukanaskneli wlebis ganmavlobaSi _ am sakiTxebis koreqtulad<br />
gaazreba, Cemi azriT, kategoriulad aucilebelia imisaTvis, rom movifiqroT rogor<br />
gamovideT Seqmnili mdgomareobidan. is, rom es situacia ara marto mwvave<br />
krizisulia da Seicavs regionuli destabilizaciis Zalian Zlier muxts,<br />
absoluturad destruqciulia qarTuli saxelmwifoebriobisaTvis. imitom rom iseTi<br />
tipis saxelmwifoebisaTvis, rogoric saqarTveloa, didi xnis ganmavlobaSi<br />
daubalansebeli urTierToba mezoblebTan seriozuli riskebis Semcvelia. da es<br />
riskebi yoveldRiurad SeiZleba iqces safrTxed da realizdes mZime SedegebiT.<br />
pirveli _ kargad unda gaviazroT, rom es ar gaxlavT qarTul-rusuli<br />
urTierTobis gansakuTrebuli fenomeni. is avlens im dinamikas, romelsac<br />
postsabWoTa transformacias vuwodebdi. bevrs ar moswons es mosazreba da cdilobs<br />
amis miRma sxva mizezebi dainaxos. SesaZloa, maT logikas safuZveli aqvs kidec,<br />
magram es procesi mizezia am dinamikisa da amave dros, TviTonac aris msxverpli am<br />
omis. omis Semdeg am transformaciam aseTi specifiuri saxe miiRo da es, me mgoni,<br />
eWvs ar unda iwvevdes.<br />
meore _ rasTan gvqonda saqme 2008 <strong>wlis</strong> agvistoSi _ eqstremalur<br />
gamovlenasTan im dapirispirebisa, romelic didi xania arsebobs Cvens regionSic. es<br />
aris kolizia ori nacionaluri proeqtisa, qarTuli da rusuli _ rusuli elitis<br />
mier ruseTis moazrebuli ganviTarebis nacionaluri proeqtisa, romelmac 2008<br />
<strong>wlis</strong> agvistos wina periodSi ukiduresad mwvave da agresiuli forma miiRo, da<br />
meore mxriv, nacionaluri proeqtisa, romlis realizaciasac saqarTvelo cdilobs,<br />
anu im arCevanis realizaciisa, romelic saqarTvelom saukuneebis mijnaze gaakeTa.<br />
mesame _ es gaxlavT axali realoba postsabWoTa sivrceSi, romelsac<br />
gaTvaliswineba sWirdeba. ruseTma gadalaxa is zRvari, romlis iqiT iwyeba<br />
movlenebis sxvagvari dinamika, da mas sWirdeba gansxvavebuli Sefaseba da<br />
damokidebuleba rogorc moTamaSeTa, ruseTis partniorTa, romelTa mimarTac<br />
ruseTma SeiZleba igive gaakeTos, ise saerTaSoriso Tanamegobrobis mier. samwuxaroa<br />
is, rom Tuki pirvel etapze am konfliqtisa aseTi gageba konfliqtisa sakmaod<br />
mwvaved iyo dasavleTSi, dReisTvis is saTanado simwvaves ver inarCunebs.<br />
agvistos movlena, rasakvirvelia, ar yofila saqarTvelo-ruseTis<br />
konfrontacia. aq ruseTi saqarTvelos saxiT dasavleTs ebrZoda. ebrZoda kavkasiaSi<br />
dasavleTs da metsac getyviT, ara erTi rusi eqspertis monacemebiT, romlebic maT<br />
gaaCniaT ufro sando wyaroebidan, ruseTis politikuri da samxedro istebliSmentis<br />
maRali eSelonebidan, am movlenebis pirvel dReebSi iq azric ki trialdebda, rom<br />
dasavluri, kerZod, amerikuli monawileoba bevrad ufro aqtiuri iyo, vidre es iyo<br />
realurad.<br />
da kidev erTi mosazreba, romelic, vfiqrob, aucilebelia momavlis<br />
dagegmvisaTvis _ agvistos omi gaxldaT logikuri gagrZeleba samSvidobo procesis<br />
kolafsisa, romelic Tavidanve ganwiruli iyo aseTi finalisaTvis, ramdenadac mTeli<br />
im wlebis ganmavlobaSi, rodesac es movlenebi viTardeboda, praqtikulad araferi<br />
gakeTebula saerTaSoriso Tanamegobrobis mier. qarTuli mxaris politika ki<br />
araTanmimdevruli iyo da aman sabolood migviyvana iqamde, rom konfrontaciis<br />
3
amgvari gamovlinebis pirobebi Seiqmna. es kidev erTxel gviCvenebs, rom status-kvo<br />
ar niSnavs mowesrigebisaTvis swrafvas, da mniSvnelovani gaxlavT is, rom es<br />
konfliqtebi arsad ar gamqrala. rodesac vambobT, rom ar arsebobs qarTulafxazuri<br />
da qarTul-osuri konfliqtebi da aris mxolod qarTul-rusuli<br />
konfliqti, Tavs vityuebT. ra Tqma unda, aravin icis, rogor ganviTardeba movlenebi,<br />
magram ra scenariTac ar unda ganviTardes, es amocana Cvens winaSe dgas. ar aris<br />
cudi, rom xelisuflebaSi ukanasknel periodSi gaCnda rigi nabijebisa, romlebic am<br />
mimarTulebiT aris orientirebuli, magram konfliqtebis mowesrigebis politikis<br />
formirebisas saWiroa am sakiTxis fundamenturad dasma. es ar aris mxolod<br />
qarTul-rusuli konfliqti, miuxedavad im gavlenisa, rac dRes aqvs ruseTis<br />
xelmZRvanelobas afxazur an samxreT oseTis regionSi mimdinare procesebze.<br />
ra mdgomareoba gvaqvs dRes. SeiZleba iTqvas, rom omi ar dasrulebula,<br />
imitom rom ar arsebobs omis dasrulebis damadasturebeli dokumenti. aris mxolod<br />
cecxlis Sewyvetis Sesaxeb SeTanxmeba, romelic ar sruldeba. da meore mxriv, ar<br />
Camoyalibebula meqanizmi, romelic axal samxedro konfrontacias Tavidan<br />
agvacilebda. mxolod ori dadebiTi momenti SeiZleba mTel am istoriaSi gamoCndes,<br />
pirvelia evrokavSiris gamoCena metnaklebad aqtiur rolSi samxreT kavkasiaSi,<br />
magram es ar aris sakmarisi Zaladobis Tavidan asacileblad, meorea taliavianis<br />
komisiis mier Catarebuli gamokvleva, sadac pirvelad, oficialur dokumentSi,<br />
pirdapir iTqva, Tu ra rols asrulebda ruseTi am konfliqtTan mimarTebaSi. es<br />
aris CemTvis cnobili pirveli SemTxveva, rodesac oficialuri piri acxadebs, rom<br />
am konfliqtebSi procesebs marTavs ruseTi da is ar aris iseTi monawile, rogorc<br />
iyo warmoCenili mTeli am wlebis ganmavlobaSi miRebul dokumentebSi.<br />
ra SeiZleba iyos amis Semdeg? pirvel rigSi unda gaviTvaliswinoT rogor<br />
uyurebs perspeqtivas orive mxare. samwuxarod, ar gvaqvs safuZveli vifiqroT, rom<br />
romelime mxare eZebs gamosavals. SeiZleva iTqvas, rom omi grZeldeba sxva saxiT.<br />
ruseTma omis dros ver miaRwia Tavis erT-erT yvelaze sasurvel mizans da amJamad<br />
mimdinare procesebis am miznisTvis gamoyenebas cdilobs. qarTuli mxarec sakmarisad<br />
arakonstruqciulia, imitom rom mxolod da mxolod status-kvos SenarCunebas<br />
uwyobs xels, romelic Tavis mxriv Zalian pirobiTia, iluzorulia, imitom rom<br />
situaciis totaluri kontrolis saSualeba ubralod ar SeiZleba hqondes qarTul<br />
mxares. meores mxriv, paraleluri procesebi mxolod qarTuli saxelmwifoebriobis<br />
winaaRmdeg SeiZleba ganviTardes. maT Soris, Sida politikuri dinamika, is motivebi,<br />
romlebic Cndeba Sida politikur ZalebSi da a.S.<br />
saWiroa dialogi, kontaqti imisaTvis, raTa veZeboT gamosavali am<br />
mdgomareobidan. dialogis saWiroebaze saubars aRar gavagrZeleb, Sevecdebi<br />
mogaxsenoT Cemi mosazreba imis Sesaxeb, ra uSlis xels dRes dialogs. da ra<br />
SeiZleba gakeTdes am winaaRmdegobis mosaxsnelad. dialogisadmi midgoma orive<br />
mxridan naklebproduqtiulia. moskovi ambobs, rom ar daelaparakeba saqarTvelos<br />
xelisuflebis arc erT warmomadgenels, vidre qveynis saTaveSi saakaSvilis<br />
xelisuflebaa, cdilobs moZebnos alternativebi, da xdeba is, rasac yvelani Tvals<br />
vadevnebT. qarTulma mxarem, oficiozma, yovel SemTxvevaSi, Tavis mxriv gamoacxada,<br />
rom dialogi ar daiwyeba, vidre ar moxdeba teritoriebis deokupacia. deokupacia ki<br />
4
ver moxdeba dialogis da Sesabamisi politikuri procesebis gareSe, ase rom Seikra<br />
mojadoebuli wre da dRes am wris tyveebi varT. Sedegad gvaqvs umarTavi procesebi,<br />
iniciativas xelSi iReben garkveuli politikuri Zalebi, qveynis SigniT Tu gareT,<br />
an scenaze gamodian saerTaSoriso aqtorebi, romlebic mxareebis sxvadasxva jgufebis<br />
warmomadgenelebs sTavazoben kontaqtebs. rogorc vxedavT, dabal doneze raRac<br />
procesebi mainc midis. amas xels ver SeuSlis xelisufleba, ase rom Cven ki ase<br />
realurad arasworad gagebuli strategiuli moTminebis reJimSi varT, magram<br />
realurad procesi ukontrolod, koordinaciis gareSe mimdinareobs da aravin icis,<br />
ra Sedegs gamoiRebs, Tuki es midgoma didxans gagrZeldeba.<br />
am mdgomareobis daZlevisTvis, Cemi azriT, aucilebelia ramdenime piroba.<br />
pirveli _ dialogis dasawyebad orive mxaris mier saWiroa politikuri neba.<br />
saWiroa imis gageba, rom aRniSnuli status-kvo orive mxaris sazianod muSaobs.<br />
amisTvis saWiroa dialogis procesi gatanil iqnes Sida politikuri<br />
dapirispirebebis zonidan, ar xdebodes am Temis hipertrofireba. es cduneba<br />
xelisuflebasTan erTad mTelma sazogadoebam unda daZlios. amis gakeTeba ar iqneba<br />
advili arc ruseTis, arc saqarTvelos mier, imitom rom wlebis ganmavlobaSi<br />
ganxorcielebuli agresiuli propaganda uSedegod ver Caivlida. ra Tqma unda<br />
platforma Zalian negatiuri da damuxtulia, magram politikosis rogorc<br />
ostatoba, ise politikuri nebis aucilebloba swored am sirTulis daZlevaSi<br />
gamoixateba.<br />
meore _ ruseTTan dialogis formirebisTvis aucilebelia qarTul mxares<br />
hqondes kargad gaazrebuli strategia. dRes aseTi strategia qarTul mxares ar<br />
gaaCnia. mxareSi vgulisxmob rogorc saxelmwifo xelisuflebas, ise mTel Cvens<br />
sazogadoebas. moZraobebis arCevani, politikuri nabijebis arCevani Tavisuflad aris<br />
miSvebuli imaT nebaze, vis rogor esmis es saqme da vin rogor xedavs amas saWirod<br />
sakuTari politikuri Tu qveynis interesebisaTvis.<br />
mesame _ strategia, ra Tqma unda, unda daefuZnos farTo <strong>diskusia</strong>s<br />
sazogadoebaSi, imitom rom es ar gaxlavT erTi politikuri jgufis gadasawyveti<br />
sakiTxi. swored amitomac mimaCnia, rom Cveni dRevandeli Sexvedra Zalian<br />
mniSvnelovania. aseTi Sexvedra albaT ukve 2008 <strong>wlis</strong> miwurulidan iyo saWiro<br />
dawyebuliyo farTo masStabiT, rodesac pirveli emociebi ganelda. samwuxarod,<br />
dRemde aseTi samuSao mxolod calkeuli iniciativebis saxiT xorcieldeba.<br />
strategiis mizani, ra Tqma unda, unda iyos TanamSromlobis pozitiuri dRis<br />
wesrigis perspeqtivebis Zieba, im SesaZleblobebis, sferoebis Zieba, sadac im<br />
situaciaSic ki, romelSic dRes qarTul-rusuli urTierTobebia, SesaZlebeli iqneba<br />
saubari TanamSromlobaze Tu ara, urTierTgagebaze mainc. aq, ra Tqma unda,<br />
situaciis Semdgomi damZimebisa da gamwvavebisgan dacvis mizniT maqsimaluri<br />
TavSekavebaa saWiro. moqmedeba ar gulisxmobs aucileblad umaRlesi donis<br />
Sexvedrebs. es saqme rogorc wesi, ase ar keTdeba. pirvel etapze, piriqiT,<br />
damatebiTi arxebiT unda damyardes kontaqtebi. aseTi damatebiTi diplomatiuri<br />
instrumentebis Camoyalibebis mcdeloba aris. aris survili Cveni dasavleli<br />
partniorebisa, xeli Seuwyon amas, magram jerjerobiT raime xelSesaxebi warmateba<br />
am mimarTulebiT ar Cans.<br />
5
da bolos, Cveni politika ruseTTan mimarTebaSi, Cveni strategia ruseTTan<br />
saqarTvelos interesebis Sesabamisi samezoblo mowyobisa, unda daefuZnos ruseTis,<br />
rogorc partnioris, Rrma da profesiul codnas, romelic dRes saqarTvelos<br />
sazogadoebas da mis akademiur elitas aRar gaaCnia. gamocdilebis is narCenebi, rac<br />
sabWoTa periodidan da 90-iani wlebidan SemogvrCa, arasakmarisia. ruseTi dRes<br />
sruliad sxva fenomenia da mas, praqtikulad, ar SeviswavliT. ramdenime<br />
gamonaklisis garda ver dagisaxelebT aseT magaliTebs. maTi nawilic, ver muSaobs<br />
imitom rom saamisod arc saxsari aqvT da arc mxardaWera, zogierTi ki Seqmnilia<br />
konkretuli motiviT da Sesabamisad, maTi muSaobis efeqti naklebia. ase rom dRes<br />
saqarTveloSi arc saxelisuflebo, arc samoqalaqo struqturebsa Tu akademiur<br />
wreebSi ruseTs ar Seiswavlian. pirvel rigSi albaT swored es problema unda<br />
daiZlios da SesaZloa dRevandelma saubarmac xeli Seuwyos am mimarTulebiT<br />
garkveuli nabijebis gadadgmas. me amiT davasruleb Tezisebis CamoTvlas. dRevandeli<br />
formati ufro Rrma gansjis saSualebas ar iZleva, siamovnebiT vupasuxeb dasmul<br />
SekiTxvebs.<br />
zviad qoriZe _ darwmunebuli var, SekiTxvebi marTlac daismeba, magram manamde<br />
momxseblebs movusminoT. axla baton daviTs gadavcem sityvas.<br />
daviT zurabiSvili _ am Temas Zalian bevri aspeqti aqvs. cota Soridan<br />
daviwyeb, imitom rom imis gasaazreblad, Tu ra unda gakeTdes qarTul-rusuli<br />
urTierTobebis mimarTulebiT, Tundac qarTuli mxridan, kargad unda gaverkveT<br />
imaSi, ras efuZneba ruseTis politika. yuradRebas gavamaxvilebdi geopolitikur<br />
aspeqtze, imaze, Tu raSi mdgomareobs geopolitikurad ruseTis interesi. sapasuxod<br />
uamisod warmoudgenelia gonivruli da racionaluri politikis ageba. erTi,<br />
zogadad rac SeiZleba iTqvas da es yvela saxelmwifosTvis aris damaxasiaTebeli,<br />
iqneba is demokratiuli Tu arademokratiuli, aris sagareo politikaSi sakuTari<br />
gavlenis gaZliereba da gavrceleba. es aris yvela saxelmwifos mizani. yvela<br />
cdilobs sakuTari gavlenis gafarToebas. Cven rom Zlieri saxelmwifo viyoT, Cvenc<br />
SevecdebodiT amas. Tu am konteqstiT SevxedavT ruseTs, wminda geografiulad rom<br />
mivadevnoT Tvali, SeuZlebelia ar hqondes Zalian didi da farTo interesebi. es<br />
aris qveyana, romelic erTis mxriv ebjineba evropas, meore mxriv ki, iaponias da<br />
amerikis SeerTebul Statebs aliaskis saxiT. samxreTiT aseve emijneba centralur<br />
azias, CineTs da islamur samyaros. Cvenc varT misi mosazRvre qveyana. ubralod<br />
SeuZlebelia ruseTi ar iyos imperia Tundac am gagebiT. imperiaSi am SemTxvevaSi<br />
imas vgulisxmob, rom misi sagareo veqtori ufro mniSvnelovania, vidre iqneboda es<br />
nebismieri patara qveynisaTvis. ruseTis sagareo politika didwilad aris<br />
damokidebuli imaze, TviTon ruseTi rogori qveyana iqneba. am konteqstSi Tu<br />
visaubrebT, ruseTisTvis Zalian mniSvnelovania, gavlena hqondes samxreT kavkasiaSi.<br />
ara marto imitom, rom samxreT kavkasia CrdiloeT kavkasiis mosazRvrea, romelic<br />
ruseTisTvis gasagebi istoriuli mizezebis gamo tradiciulad aris Zalian cxeli<br />
regioni. am SemTxvevaSi Tu saqarTvelo ar aris ruseTis eqskluziuri gavlenis qveS,<br />
mas mudmivad aqvs safrTxe, igive CrdiloeT kavkasiis afeTqebis saxiT. saqarTvelo,<br />
6
miuxedavad Cveni mZime politikuri mdgomareobisa, samxreT kavkasiaSi geografiulad<br />
da geopolitikurad wamyvani regionia, Tundac imiT, rom zRvas vesazRvrebiT, es<br />
nebismier SemTxvevaSi aris samxreT kavkasiis geopolitikuri gasaRebi. ruseTis<br />
gavlenisgan Tavisufali samxreT kavkasia warmoSobs safrTxes, rom Tundac<br />
energomatareblebiT mdidari islamuri samyaro centraluri aziis saxiT, ruseTis<br />
gverdis avliT SeiZleba daukavSirdes evropas. es ruseTisTvis miuRebelia.<br />
SeuZlebelia ruseTis politika ar iyos mimarTuli iqiT, rom saqarTveloSi<br />
damkvidrdes maTi eqskluziuri gavlena, ara aqvs mniSvneloba, vinc ar unda movides<br />
qveynis saTaveSi. ruseTis nebismieri xelmZRvaneloba, romelic amaze uars ityvis da<br />
Seecdeba, rom aq dauSvas amerikis SeerTebuli Statebis Tu sxva qveynis gavlena,<br />
aucileblad imuSavebs ruseTis saxelmwifos winaaRmdeg da daasustebs ruseTis<br />
gavlenas ara marto am konkretul regionSi, aramed evropaSic. amitom es sakiTxi<br />
ruseTisTvis sasicocxlod mniSvnelovania. ar miyvars iseTi emociuri Sefasebebi,<br />
rogoric aris ,,mteri~, magram is, rom ruseTis saxelmwifoebriv interesebSi ar<br />
Sedis qarTuli saxelmwifos Zliereba, es aris geopolitikuri realoba. ubralod,<br />
ar SeiZleba iyos sxvanairad. Zlieri saxelmwifo niSnavs damoukidebeli politikis<br />
gatarebas, Tavisi arCevani gaakeTos da ar gaiTvaliswinos misi interesebi, ar<br />
daemorCilos mis gavlenas. amitom iseTi saxelmwifo, romelic ar eqvemdebareba mis<br />
gavlenas, cxadia, ruseTis interesebSi ar Sedis, amitom misi politika aseTi iqneba.<br />
es Cans praqtikaSic da amaSi verafers iracionalurs ver vxedav. SeiZleba<br />
nawilobriv daeTanxmo imas, rom ruseTs saqarTvelos mimarT gansakuTrebuli<br />
damokidebuleba aqvs, magram esec rom ar iyos, wminda geopolitikuri<br />
mdgomareobidan gamomdinare, ruseTs sxvanairi politika ver eqneba. afxazeTi da<br />
cxinvalis regionic nebismier SemTxvevaSi berketad iqneboda gamoyenebuli. mas<br />
sWirdeba berketi samxreT kavkasiaSi dasamkvidreblad, saqarTveloze gavleniT mas<br />
meti gavlena eqneba somxeTsa da azerbaijanzec, esec realuria geopolitikuri<br />
realobidan gamodinare. aseTia ruseTis politikis geopolitikuri arsi.<br />
axla Cveni poziciidan SevxedoT am situacias. aq yvelaze ufro araswori<br />
iqneboda da aris aseTi tendencia, rom radgan ruseTs aseTi politika aqvs Cvens<br />
mimarT, maqsimalurad unda SevecadoT gasvlas rusuli kulturuli arealidan, misi<br />
yvelanairi gavlenisgan gaTavisuflebas, magram me mgoni, piriqiT aris. imitom rom<br />
batonma iraklim swori brZana, rodesac ici, rom saxelmwifos geopolitikuri da<br />
geostrategiuli amocana Seni saxelmwifoebriobis winaaRmdeg aris momarTuli,<br />
aucilebelia kargad icnobde am qveyanas, kargad gqondes Seswavlili da rac ufro<br />
meti iseTi adamiani geyoleba iq, visac kargad ecodineba ruseTis politikuri<br />
elitis mdgomareoba, rac meti lobisti geyoleba, aseT situaciaSi miT ukeTesi<br />
iqneba. megobruli qveyana rom yofiliyo, es problema ar iqneboda, magram swored<br />
aseTi radgan aris, miT ufro gWirdeba misi kargad Seswavla. garda amisa, rusuli<br />
ena, azerbaijanTan urTierToba ginda, ukrainasTan Tu centralur aziasTan,<br />
saerTaSoriso enaa am qveynebisTvis. amitom ruseTTan mWidro urTierTobas verc erT<br />
variantSi ver avcdebiT. yovelive amis gaTvaliswinebiT qarTuli politikis,<br />
strategiis gamomuSaveba ar aris advili saqme. imitom rom erTis mxriv kargad unda<br />
vacnobierebdeT imas, rom ruseTis geostrategiul interesebSi ar Sedis Zlieri<br />
7
qarTuli saxelmwifo, meores mxriv, aseve aucilebelia rac SeiZleba kargad<br />
vicnobdeT am qveyanas, rom rogorme gavaneitraloT es geopolitikuri faqtori.<br />
rogoria realoba? 1994 <strong>wlis</strong> mere, rodesac saqarTvelo umZimes<br />
mdgomareobaSi imyofeboda, aranakleb mZime mdgomareobaSi, vidre axlaa, axali<br />
damTavrebuli iyo afxazeTis omi, saqarTvelo praqtikulad iyo ganadgurebuli<br />
qveyana, yvela Zalovani struqturis xelmZRvaneli iyo ruseTis armiis oficeri,<br />
TviTon ruseTis Sida koniunqturam Seuwyo xeli imas, rom ufro ar garTulda<br />
viTareba, es elcinis politika iyo. meore mxriv, SesaZloa SevardnaZesTan bevri<br />
pretenzia gvaqvs, magram unda vaRiaroT isic, rom man Zalian Wkvianurad warmarTa<br />
procesebi, rodesac saqarTveloSi gaCnda navTobsadenis idea da qveyanam<br />
geostrategiuli funqcia SeiZina. SevardnaZis dros gadawyda stambulis<br />
xelSekrulebiT ruseTis samxedro bazebis gayvanis sakiTxic. saqarTvelo nel-nela<br />
iZenda im konturebs, romelic Cven am mtruli da agresiuli zegavlenisgan<br />
gvaTavisuflebda, magram am xazs gagrZeleba sWirdeboda.<br />
2003 <strong>wlis</strong> Semdeg, gansakuTrebiT buSis administraciis meore vadiT mosvlis<br />
Semdeg situacia Seicvala da aman Cemi azriT, gadamwyvetad uaryofiTi roli iTamaSa<br />
qarTuli saxelmwifosTvis. Tuki qarTuli saxelmwifo manamde ganixileboda<br />
dasavleTis da amerikis SeerTebuli Statebis mimarTac, upirveles yovlisa, rogorc<br />
tranzituli saxelmwifo evropaSi centraluri aziis energoresursebisTvis, amave<br />
konteqstSi qarTuli saxelmwifos mTavar kapitalad moiazreboda demokratia, da<br />
rogorc lideri demokratiisa regionSi, es iyo Cveni ,,safirmo niSani~ ucxoeTSi, da<br />
maT gamo gvqonda mxardaWera, es ki iyo ruseTis Semakavebeli faqtori. Zneli<br />
saTqmelia, rogor moxda, magram igive amerikis SeerTebul StatebTan konteqstSi,<br />
CamoTvlilma faqtorebma gadaiwia ukana planze da win wamovida sul sxva _ amerikis<br />
SeerTebuli Statebis samxedro-politikuri forpostis funqcia, gasamxedroebuli<br />
qveyana, romelic Zlieri mxardaWeriT sargeblobs amerikis SeerTebuli Statebis<br />
mxridan da romelic antirusuli samxedro-politikuri bastionia regionSi. bolo<br />
wlebis politikas Tu davukvirdebiT, 2005 wlidan moyolebuli, asec aris. gaxsovT,<br />
ramxela yuradReba eqceoda samxedro rezervs, uzarmazari xarjebi midioda samxedro<br />
sferoSi, da amas amerikis SeerTebuli Statebis mxridan kritika ar mohyolia.<br />
saqarTvelo warmodgenil iqna axlo aRmosavleTis tipis qveynad, romelsac raRac<br />
axali funqciebi unda ekisra da am funqciebiT ufro mniSvnelovani unda yofiliyo,<br />
vidre im tradiciuli funqciiT, rac mas manamde hqonda. es ramdenad<br />
ganxorcielebadi iyo, calke sakiTxia, magram agvistos omma yvelaferi daangria.<br />
agvistos omi iyo umZimesi Secdoma. rac ar unda momxdariyo, am omSi Cabma ar<br />
SeiZleboda. bevrs saubroben imis Sesaxeb, rom is gardauvali iyo, magram ase ar<br />
yofila. yvelaferi unda gakeTebuliyo am omis Tavidan asacileblad, imitom rom am<br />
omSi gamarjveba SeuZlebeli iyo. mesame msoflio omi rom ar daiwyeboda, yvelasTvis<br />
cxadia, romc dawyebuliyo, kargi arc iqidan gamovidoda araferi. radgan omi ver<br />
avicileT, Tundac ruseTis geostrategiuli funqciidan gamomdinare, aseT<br />
situaciaSi aRmovCndiT. safrTxis qveS dadga yvelaferi. isic ki, ramdenad<br />
warmoadgens dRes saqarTvelo kavkasiis regionSi geopolitikur liders, kiTxvis<br />
niSnis qveS dadga. amis gamosworeba Zalian Znelia.<br />
8
adre Tu ruseTis jari iyo gayvanili saqarTvelos farglebidan da mas<br />
gudauTaze vedavebodiT, dRes gvyavs ruseTis jari cxinvalis regionsa da afxazeTSi,<br />
miviReT ruseTis da kidev oriod qveynis mier aRiarebuli separatistuli regionebi,<br />
marTalia, es procesi ar gaRrmavda, magram gacilebiT ufro mZime situaciaa, vidre<br />
adre iyo. amas emateba is, rom ruseTi acxadebs, rom ar daelaparakeba am<br />
xelisuflebas, vidre saakaSvilia xelisuflebis saTaveSi. es pozicia ruseTisTvis<br />
xelsayrelia. mas ar eqmneba didi problemebi amis gamo arc amerikis SeerTebul<br />
StatebTan, arc evrokavSirTan urTierTobaSi. amitom, vfiqrob, is Zalian mSvidad<br />
elodeba 2013 wels, manamde SesaZloa Sida politikuri situaciac saTavisod<br />
moamzados. yvelanairad Seecdeba moaxerxos, rom 2013 <strong>wlis</strong> mere aq Tavisi<br />
eqskluziuri gavlena sabolood daimkvidros, rac aris Cemi azriT misi mizani.<br />
rogori SeiZleba iyos am situaciaSi Cveni xelisuflebis politika? didi<br />
arCevani ar gvaqvs. Cvengan romc iyos aqtiuroba, ruseTi ar gamoTqvams dialogis<br />
survils, imitom rom misTvis es xelsayreli poziciaa. me vici, rom Cvens<br />
xelisuflebaSi aris am dialogis mcdelobebi, SesaZloa kuluarul doneze, uamravi<br />
despani da elCia iq araformalurad gagzavnili, magram araferi gamodis. aris<br />
erTaderTi varianti, Tumca me mas skeptikurad vuyureb. am situaciaSi erTaderTi,<br />
rasac qarTuli politika SeiZleba daeyrdnos, iqneboda is, rom imdenad ,,kargad<br />
iqceodes~ saqarTvelo, rom gazardos faqtori, imisaTvis raTa evrokavSiri, amerikis<br />
SeerTebuli Statebi daelaparakos ruseTs moalaprakebebis Sesaxeb. es iqneboda<br />
erTis mxriv, seriozuli orientacia evrokavSirisken, rac gamoixateba demokratiuli<br />
procesebis realurad gatarebasa da kanonmdeblobis mimarTulebiT seriozuli<br />
nabijebis gadadgmaSi. saubaria axali sagadasaxado kodeqsis miRebaze. esec ki<br />
ukavSirdeba qarTul-rusul urTierTobebs, imitom rom aseTi kodeqsi absoluturad<br />
ewinaaRmdegeba evrokavSiris sagadasaxado kodeqss. anu, is ultraliberalizmi, rac<br />
Cvens ekonomikur politikaSia, ar aris evrokavSiris politika. Cven maqsimalurad<br />
unda SevecadoT davuaxlovdeT evropas, maqsimalurad unda davanaxoT, rom swored<br />
iq gveguleba Cveni Tavi. ver vityvi, rom es Zalian did Sanss mogvcemda, magram<br />
raRac berkets saimisod, rom evrokavSirs gauCndes motivacia ruseTs urCios<br />
wamovides dialogze, gaaCenda. ra Tqma unda, SeuZlebelia, mxolod xelisufleba<br />
gamodiodes rogorc eqskluziuri mxare molaparakebebis. ra Tqma unda, saxelmwifos<br />
saxeliT unda imarTebodes dialogi, opoziciis Casvla ara mgonia swori iyos da es<br />
arsad xdeba. magram im potencials, rac aris dagrovili, Tundac sxva politikur<br />
partiebSi, saxelmwifo unda iyenebdes. amiTac unda daanaxos ruseTsac da evropasac,<br />
rom ruseTTan urTierTobis normalizeba aris Cvens interesebSi. samwuxarod, aris<br />
araTanmimdevruloba da zogjer Zalian radikaluri gancxadebebic. Cveni mZime<br />
mdgomareobidan gamomdinare, ruseTTan urTierTobebis daregulirebas Cven TviTon<br />
unda veswrafodeT. cxadia, absoluturi iluziaa is, rom Tu ruseTs raRacas<br />
davuTmobT, amiT raimes mivaRwevT. amiT araferi gamova. imitom rom rogorc<br />
giTxariT, mis interesebSi mxolod Cvenze eqskluziuri gavlenaa. ase rom daTmobiT<br />
verafers sasikeTos Cveni qveynisTvis ver gamovrCebiT. iseve rogorc verafers<br />
sasikeTos ver gamovrCebiT Zalian xisti da miuRebeli politikiT. Zalian<br />
seriozuli dafiqrebaa saWiro. rusul-qarTuli urTierTobebis ambavi umeteswilad<br />
9
wydeba ara imdenad rusul-qarTul urTierTobaSi, aramed Sida qarTul<br />
urTierTobebSi. mniSvnelovania aRdgena im mTavari kapitalisa, romelic demokratiis<br />
saxiT gvqonda mTel msoflioSi. evropaSi jerjerobiT ver xedaven, rom Cven aseTi<br />
qveyana varT da aseTi saxelmwifoebrioba gvinda namdvilad. Tumca ar maqvs didi<br />
imedi, rom amis saTanado gaazreba Cvens xelisuflebaSi moxdeba. Tu moxdeboda, es<br />
qveyanas waadgeboda.<br />
zviad qoriZe _ axla baton ramaz sayvareliZes movusminoT.<br />
ramaz sayvareliZe _ mesame gamomsvlels erTi pliusi aqvs, wina<br />
gamomsvlelebi xSirad amboben did nawils imisas, rac saTqmeli iyo, da me mxolod<br />
Cemi wili SemiZlia mivamato. mcire kamaTi SeiZleba gamomivides baton daviTTan. man<br />
Tavis saubarSi Cado ramdenime politikuri elementi, romelic Cemi azriT, aris<br />
kliSe da ara realoba. is, rom ruseTi yovelRame fiqrobs imaze, rogor ,,gakoWos~<br />
saqarTvelo, cota ararealuri meCveneba. imitom rom mas garSemo bevri aseTi qveyana<br />
aqvs. ratom ar fiqrobs is rogor daangrios saxelmwifoebrioba sxva qveynebSi?<br />
amitom imis Tqma, rom ruseTs surs Cveni saxemwifoebriobis dangreva da amiT misi<br />
poziciis axsna, martivi diagnozi mgonia. realoba bevrad ufro rTulia.<br />
xelisuflebis propagandam albaT mainc Tavisi gaitana. es ZiriTadad xelisuflebis<br />
kliSea.<br />
meore kliSed mimaCnia daviTisa da goliaTis brZolis modeli, romelic<br />
xSirad aris gaTamaSebuli saqarTvelo-ruseTis urTierTobebis aRwerisas. es modeli<br />
prezidentma erTxel Riadac axsena. xSirad igrZnoba es modeli, rodesac saubaria<br />
imaze, rom patara saqarTvelo ibrZvis, didi ruseTi ki `Wams~ mas. me ar vici,<br />
vibrZviT Tu ara imisaTvis, rom ar SemovuSvaT ruseTis gavlena. raRa saWiroa<br />
brZola, roca is ukve SemoSvebulia. mTeli ZiriTadi obieqtebi ruseTis xelSia,<br />
ruseTis tankebic dgas saqarTveloSi. rac Seexeba politikas, awyobs ruseTs Tu ara<br />
es saomari ritorika, es kidev damafiqrebelia. iqneb swored rusuli politikis<br />
nawilia is, rom iyos es agresiuli ritorika da daZabuloba? ruseTi sisxlze<br />
advilad midis. pirvelma prezidentma, gamsaxurdiam rogorc ki daamyara dudaevTan<br />
kavkasiuri saxlis ideis safuZvelze urTierToba, erTi kviris intervaliT mokles<br />
dudaevic da gamsaxurdiac. anu es gza dauSvebeli iyo. rogorc ki moawera xeli<br />
navTobsadenze SevardnaZem, aafeTqes, magram iRbali aqvs da gadarCa. Semdeg kidev<br />
aafeTqes. Tu aseTi konfrontaciulia dRevandeli qarTuli politika, erTi<br />
teroristuli aqti saakaSvilze ratom ar moxda. erTi muqara ratom ar moxda?<br />
imitom rom antirusuli ritorikis qveS realurad rusuli interesis dafuZneba<br />
midis. mainteresebs, rodemde ar unda davarqvaT saxelebi movlenebs. Tuki midis<br />
rusuli interesis dafuZneba antirusuli ritorikis qveS, gamodis rom antirusuli<br />
ritorikac rusuli politikis nawilia.<br />
mesame stereotipi _ gavagebinoT evropas da is ruseTs ,,amas uzams da imas<br />
uzams~. SevxedoT evropas, risi maqnisia. agvistos omi amis SesaniSnavi ilustracia<br />
iyo. gavixsenoT, ra momentSi moxda omi, roca ruseTs yelSi amouvida kosovos<br />
problema da misTvis angariSgauwevlobis kidev ramdenime aqti, gadawyvita gadaedga<br />
10
nabiji, romliTac Wkuas aswavlida, veTanxmebi orive momxsenebels, dasavleTs. amitom<br />
rodesac mere eqspertebs ekiTxebodnen, ra Sedegebi moitana saqarTvelosTan omma,<br />
sityva `saqarTvelos~ aravin axsenebda, ar ainteresebdaT. saubrobdnen imaze, ra<br />
dainaxa amerikam, evropam. imitom rom es maTi dasanaxi da maTTan urTierTobisTvis<br />
dagegmili omi iyo. vis awyobda es omi? erTdroulad awyobda amerikasac da<br />
ruseTsac. gavixsenoT buSis maSindeli replikebi. es meCveneba im politikur<br />
realobad, romelSic vcxovrobT. am realobisTvis maqvs erTi logikuri axsna. Tuki<br />
miviCnevT, rom gamosavali evropasa da amerikaSi aRar aris, imitom rom amerikam<br />
kardinalurad Secvala konfrontaciuli politika da dRes partniors eZaxis<br />
ruseTs, vis xarjze viwyebT konfrontacias, gaugebaria, etyoba, iranis. Tuki es<br />
potenciali, rom viRac dagicavs, Cxubis dros ar aris, unda ganagrZo Cxubi?<br />
meorec, unda davakvirdeT, TviTon ruseTi ganagrZobs Cxubs? noRaidelisa da<br />
burjanaZis damokidebuleba ruseTis mimarT Tu SemTxveviTia, ratom ar dadga ufro<br />
adre? axla ratom gauCndaT siyvaruli ruseTis mimarT? meCveneba, rom amis ukan<br />
dgas erTi logika _ Tuki miviCnevT, rom ruseTma yvela mizani aisrula, me ara<br />
mgonia, rom misi mizani xelisuflebis damxoba iyos da sxva yvela mizani<br />
asrulebuli aqvs. mas Zalianac awyobs is xelisufleba, romelic aris. Tuki<br />
xelisuflebis damxoba ar aris mizani, gamodis, rom agvistos omis yvela mizani<br />
miRweulia. putini rom viyoT nebismieri Cvengani, ganvagrZobdiT afxazeTis da oseTis<br />
dafinansebas, romelsac ukve aRaraferi moaqvs CvenTvis? es milionebi jdeba, miT<br />
umetes oseTSi, sadac kokoiTs erTi didi ormo aqvs gaTxrili da uSvebs SigniT<br />
nebismier daxmarebas. anu es aris xarji ruseTisTvis, romlidanac mas xeiri aRara<br />
aqvs. am pirobebSi, rodesac ruseTi ukve fuls iTvlis (amis gamo ar SeierTa<br />
belorusia), misTvis momgebiania konfrontaciuli politikis gagrZeleba da<br />
saqarTvelos daSlis politika? am pirobebSi misTvis nuTu ufro momgebiani ar aris<br />
raRac formiT gaaerTianos saqarTvelo, mSvidobismyofelis mantiac moisxas da<br />
politikuri pretenziebi misdami Caketos, da am regionebis fuli axdevinos<br />
saqarTvelos. imitom rom Tavis gavlenas im regionebSi Tavisi tankebiTa da<br />
zarbaznebiT mainc SeinarCunebs. ase rom is arafers dakargavs saqarTvelos<br />
teritoriuli mTlianobiT. am logikis fonze, gansakuTrebiT gautkba putins<br />
qarTvelebis mimarT siyvaruli. oRond jer adrea, imitom rom Tu es logika<br />
realuria, da me ver vxedav masSi daeWvebis safuZvels, maSin putinma unda daicados<br />
kidev ramdenime weliwadi, vidre TviTon gaxdeba prezidenti, da medvedevis, rogorc<br />
prezidentis mier mowyobil oms mSvidobianad ar daamTavrebs. am fonze meCveneba, rom<br />
ruseTi ufro advilad midis obamas mier SeTavazebul partniorobaze, mas awyobs<br />
kidec ukve es partnioroba, da meCveneba, rom obamas fraza, rom saqarTvelo aRar<br />
aris maTi konfliqtis sagani, gulisxmobs ara imas, rom TviTon miatova saqarTvelo,<br />
aramed imas, rom realurad ruseTisgan miiRo Tanxmoba saqarTvelos mitovebisa. ase<br />
rom Cven mTavaria xeli ar SevuSaloT procesebs. magram Tu es arakonfrontaciuli<br />
politika gagrZelda am did saxelmwifoebs Soris, me mgonia arc SegvekiTxebian, ise<br />
moagvareben Cvens problemebs. aseTia Cemi azri.<br />
11
zviad qoriZe _ <strong>diskusia</strong>s gaxsnilad vacxadebT, veliT Tqvens mosazrebebs da<br />
kiTxvebs.<br />
giorgi xorbalaZe, `respublikuri partiis~ iuristi _ Zalian saintereso<br />
<strong>diskusia</strong>a. Cemi azriT, am sakiTxze mTlian speqtrSia saWiro fiqri da ara<br />
xelisuflebis an calkeuli opoziciuri partiebis mxridan.<br />
baton ramazTan maqvs SekiTxva. rogorc Tqven brZaneT, obamam saqarTvelos<br />
mitovebaze ruseTisgan miiRo Tanxmoba. logikurad igulisxmeboda ara is, rom obamam<br />
miatova, aramed is, rom ruseTi miatovebs. ras niSnavs es, gavlenis daTmobas Tu<br />
imas, rom aRar apirebs brZolas kidev ufro meti gavlenis mopovebisTvis<br />
saqarTveloze.<br />
ramaz sayvareliZe _ ruseTis mxridan es iqneba deokupacia da afxazeTis da<br />
samxreT oseTis statusis Secvla.<br />
raJden Cixoria _ gasagebia, rom dialogi aucilebelia, magram ra saxis<br />
dialogs gulisxmobT. partnioroba orive mxridan pasuxismgeblobas niSnavs. rodesac<br />
erT-erTi Zalis warmomadgenlebi moskovidan TbilisSi dabrundnen, ruseTis meore<br />
pirma gaakeTa gancxadeba, rom isini saTxovnelad iyvnen Casulebi, imitom rom<br />
qarTvelebma cekvisa da simReris meti araferi viciT. aseTi midgomis pirobebSi<br />
rogor warmogidgeniaT dialogi Tanabar Zalebs Soris.<br />
irakli menaRariSvili _ zogadi mizani am dialogisa unda iyos SesaZlo<br />
TanamSromlobis pozitiuri dRis wesrigis Camoyalibeba. es ra Tqma unda, Zalian<br />
farTo cnebaa. me mwams, rom saqarTvelos gaaCnia ruseTTan urTierTobis<br />
sasicocxlod mniSvnelovani interesebi, iseve rogorc ruseTs gaaCnia interesebi<br />
saqarTvelosTan mimarTebaSi. unda Sejerdes es interesebi. zogierTi piroba,<br />
romelic saWiroa am procesis koreqtulad warmarTvisTvis, ukve CamovTvale. Tumca<br />
diskusiis pirobebSi SesaZloa kidev gaCndes axali ideebi. minda giTxraT, rom es ar<br />
aris mxolod Cemi mosazrebebi, es aris profesionalTa wreSi Camoyalibebuli<br />
mosazrebebis nakrebi. Tumca, vimeoreb, SesaZloa kidev iyos komponentebi, romlebic<br />
aranakleb efeqturi SeiZleba aRmoCndes. amisaTvis sazogadoebaSi unda ganixilebodes<br />
es sakiTxebi.<br />
raJden Cixoria _ ruseTisTvis Cven mainc patara qveyana varT. es ar mogvwons<br />
da misgan rogorc TanasworTan, iseT urTierTobas moviTxovT.<br />
irakli menaRariSvili _ aq xedavT dauZlevel winaaRmdegobas?<br />
raJden Cixoria _ Tu davanaxeT mas, rom yvelam gagvyida da martoebi davrCiT,<br />
mixvdeba, rom sxva gza ara gvaqvs, sustebi varT da SiSis gamo isev mas vexutebiT.<br />
ruseTi ki aris qveyana, romelsac esmis mxolod Zala.<br />
12
irakli menaRariSvili _ nu warmovidgenT dialogs momentalur procesad. es<br />
xangrZlivi procesia da Tavisi logika gaaCnia. is, rogorc wesi, ar iwyeba<br />
maqsimaluri moTxovnebis wayenebiT, ise rogorc JenevaSi xdeba. JenevaSi, rogorc<br />
CemTvis cnobilia, orive mxarem Camoayaliba erTmaneTisTvis sruliad miuRebeli<br />
pozicia, amitom es Sexvedrebi uSedegod mTavrdeba. aseT Sexvedrebs ar aqvs<br />
perspeqtiva, erTaderTi mniSvnelovani funqcia, rac mas aqvs is aris, rom es aris<br />
Ria platforma, romelzec SemdgomSi, rodesac kulisebSi miiRweva SeTanxmeba, unda<br />
dafuZndes dialogis meqanizmis procesi. namdvili dialogi minimaluri nabijebidan<br />
iwyeba. am pirveli nabijebiT SeiZleba swored misvla SeTanxmebamde, romelsac<br />
pirobiTad SeiZleba ewodos qarTul-rusuli TanamSromlobis pozitiuri dRis<br />
wesrigi. es aris mizani. vambobT, rom dialogis dawyebis pirveli nabiji aris<br />
deokupacia, vidre ukanaskneli okupanti ar datovebs saqarTvelos, dialogs ar<br />
daviwyebT. amiT dasawyisSive vxuravT kars da did boqloms vkidebT masze. ase<br />
dialogi, ra Tqma unda, ver daiwyeba. saqarTvelo unda elaparakos ruseTs rogorc<br />
partniori. Semdgom etapze, vin rogor Sexedavs mas zomisa da sxva potencialidan<br />
gamomdinare, es Sedegi unda iyos da ara winapiroba.<br />
gvanca alfeniZe _ geTanmxebiT, batono irakli, rom ruseTs ar vicnobT. magram<br />
vTqvaT, gadavwyvite Seswavla, rogor unda gavakeTo es. Zalian mcire saSualebaa<br />
amisTvis. amerikaSi ufro kargad gavicani ruseTi, vidre mas saqarTvelodan vicnobdi.<br />
irakli menaRariSvili _ geTanxmebiT, rom rTulia, magram mainc arsebobs<br />
komunikaciis bevrad ufro farTo saSualebebi wina wlebTan SedarebiT. magram qveynis<br />
Seswavla gulisxmobs bevr sxva moments, magaliTad imas, rom gqondeT kontaqti, iq<br />
Casvlis, iqaur eqspertebTan Sexvedris saSualeba.<br />
gvanca alfeniZe _ batono ramaz, geTanxmebiT, rom ruseTi namdvilad ar<br />
fiqrobs, rogor daangrios qarTuli saxelmwifo, magram Cemi azriT es imiT aris<br />
ganpirobebuli, rom saerTod ar aRgviqvams rogorc saxelmwifos. is fiqrobs imaze,<br />
rogor ar dauSvas qveynis Semdgomi aSeneba. rac Seexeba evrokavSirs, is sustia ara<br />
imitom, rom evropa gazarmacda an daberda, es ubralod ar Sedis mis interesebSi.<br />
Cemi azriT, bolo ori saukunis ganmavlobaSi pirvelad, ruseTs aRar aqvs imdeni<br />
Zala da ambicia, rom SeaSinos evropa, amerika, mTeli msoflio. me ver vxedav, rom<br />
evropas misi eSinia.<br />
imaSic geTanxmebiT, rom es procesi raRac xanSi TavisiT gadawydeba, magram<br />
rogor, deokupaciiT Tu sruli okupaciiT?<br />
ramaz sayvareliZe _ okupacia Zalian Zviri ujdeba saxelmwifos. ruseTs ukve<br />
aqvs saqarTveloSi gavlenis sfero. dauwieT xma televizors da ise uyureT<br />
saqarTvelos. SexedeT realur procesebs. rac dasWirda ruseTs, yvelaferi<br />
mivarTviT, maT Soris omi, obieqtebi. meti aRaraferi unda. ufro metic, afxazeTi da<br />
samxreT oseTic ki aRar unda. dRes ruseTi erT-erTi yvelaze pragmatuli qveyanaa.<br />
ratom Sevida is evropaSi Tavisi gaziT. mTeli dasavleTi amaze laparakobs, rom<br />
13
useTma mTeli evropa gazis nemsze dasva. dRes yvelaze metad saSiSia ruseTi.<br />
ruseTma moaxdina kontroli evropaze da Tqven fiqrobT, rom dRe da Rame fiqrobs,<br />
rogor gaakontrolos saqarTvelo?<br />
daviT zurabiSvili _ baton ramazs vupasuxeb. ar miTqvams, rom ruseTis<br />
saxelmwifos mizania qarTuli saxelmwifos dangreva. mxolod is vTqvi, rom ruseTis<br />
mizania eqskluziuri gavlenis mopoveba samxreT kavkasiaSi da aqedan gamomdinare,<br />
saqarTveloSic. amis gamo ar aris ruseTisTvis xelsayreli Zlieri qarTuli<br />
saxelmwifoebrioba. imitom rom Zlieri qarTuli saxelmwifoebrioba niSnavs bevr<br />
damoukidebel berkets. imaSi dageTanxmebiT, rom am miznis didi wili ukve<br />
Sesrulebuli aqvs. magram miznis sabolood misaRwevad mas aq sWirdeba sruliad<br />
morCili xelisufleba. es mas 2013 wlamde namdvilad ar eCqareba. imaSic<br />
geTanxmebiT, rom ruseTs axla sulac ar surs CvenTan separatistuli tendenciebis<br />
gaZliereba da Cveni daSla-daqucmaceba. mas sWirdeba mTeli regioni, mTeli qveyana da<br />
ara misi erTi nawili. afxazeTsa da samxreT oseTis yofil respublikaSic gavlena<br />
imisTvis ki ar sWirdeboda, rom Zalian uyvars es xalxi, mas es berketebisTvis,<br />
zemoqmedebisTvis sWirdeboda. Tu mTel saqarTveloze gavlenas moipovebs, SesaZloa<br />
am regionebis raRac doneze reintegraciisken danarCen saqarTvelosTan nabijebi<br />
gadadgas. sakiTxi ase unda daisvas, ramdenad waadgeba es qarTul<br />
saxelmwifoebriobas.<br />
ruseTis mizans ar Seadgens iseTi reintegracia, rom ruseTs ar darCes<br />
nebismier SemTxvevaSi berketebi Cvens dasaSlelad. mas unda eWiros xelSi yvela<br />
gasaRebi da mxolod am SemTxvevaSi SeiZleba wavides raRac daTmobebze. saerTo<br />
interesebi SeiZleba gamoinaxos, magram samwuxarod, Cven axla iseT situaciaSi<br />
vimyofebiT, rac ar unda moxdes, verafers vizamT. amisTvis xels arc saerTaSoriso<br />
koniunqtura gviwyobs, arc Sina resursebi. Cven ara varT CeCnebi, romlebic<br />
Seawydebian mas. kulturuladac ara varT aseTi eri.<br />
eka qristesaSvili _ Zalian minda gaviziaro batoni ramazis imedebi, magram<br />
vidre es moxdebodes, baton iraklisTan maqvs kiTxva. dialogi, geTanxmebiT, nebismier<br />
pirobebSi aucilebelia da diplomatiac albaT swored amisTvis arsebobs. Tqveni<br />
azriT, ra saerTo interesebi SeiZleba gvqondes ruseTTan da risi daTmoba SeuZlia<br />
kidev saqarTvelos imis gaTvaliswinebiT, rom bevri ram ukve daTmo.<br />
batono daviT, geopolitikuri azrovneba kargia, magram unda gvaxsovdes, rom<br />
is aris me-20 saukunis 60-80-iani wlebis movlena. imedi maqvs saqarTvelo ufro<br />
adre gamova geopolitikuri xedvebidan, vidre ruseTi.<br />
giorgi babalaSvili, studenti _ samwuxarod batoni ramazis sityvebSi me<br />
pesimizmi davinaxe. gamodis, rom saakaSvilic ruseTis mxarea, opoziciis bevri<br />
warmomadgenelic aseve ruseTis momxrea. me, rogorc axalgazrdas, qveynis momavali<br />
ver damanaxeT imis garda, rom raRac xnis Semdeg viqnebiT ruseTis daqvemdebarebaSi.<br />
CemTvis es imedi ar aris, bodiSs vixdi.<br />
14
irakli menaRariSvili _ am wuTas gamiWirdeba konkretuli CamonaTvalis<br />
gakeTeba, Tumca amaze uamravi mosazreba arsebobs. pirvel yovlisa, yvelam unda<br />
warmovidginoT, rom Cven erTsa da imave ganzomilebaSi vcxovrobT. aris Cveni<br />
arsebobis ganzomilebebi, sadac uerTmaneTod ubralod SeuZlebelia. magram is rom<br />
dRes Seqmnili situacia mdgomareobas yovlad auaresebs, es mgoni faqtia, dawyebuli<br />
garemos dacvidan, damTavrebuli regionuli usafrTxoebis ganzomilebiT. dRes<br />
praqtikulad paralizebulia TanamSromlobis yvela formati Savi zRvis farglebSi,<br />
aseve paralizebulia samxreT kavakasiis TanamSromloba ufro farTo CarCoSi.<br />
saqarTvelo-ruseTis am problemis gamo, is, rac xdeba CrdiloeT kavkasiaSi,<br />
darCenilia Cveni TanamSromlobis perspeqtivebis ganxilvis gareSe. ufro metic,<br />
dRis wesrigis iseTi negatiuri sakiTxebi Cndeba, romlebic kidev ufro arTulebs<br />
urTierTobas, gviCens samomavlo problemebs da meore mxriv, SesaZloa<br />
ruseTisTvisac warmoadgendes mZime gamocdas. am yvelafris Tavidan acileba<br />
aucilebelia.<br />
ruseTs marTlac Zalian Zviri ujdeba es gamarjveba. veTanxmebi baton ramazs,<br />
samxreT oseTi da afxazeTi misi biujetis xarjviTi nawilis seriozuli Tavia ukve.<br />
zusti ricxvis dasaxeleba gamiWirdeba, magram mogexsenebaT, kokoiTs e.w. mTavrobis<br />
Tavmjdomare hyavs, romelsac davalebuli aqvs am yvelafris gakontroleba.<br />
yvelafers rom Tavi davaneboT, seriozuli pretenziebi gamoiTqmis xelmZRvanelebis<br />
doneze, rom Seudareblad intensiurad finansdeba afxazeTi da samxreT oseTi, vidre<br />
Tundac igive CrdiloeT oseTi. am sakiTxebis dRis wesrigidan moxsna pirdapir Sedis<br />
ruseTis interesebSi. ra pirobebSi SeiZleba moixsnas es sakiTxebi, es ukve SeiZleba<br />
iyos saubris Tema.<br />
daviT zurabiSvili _ me ar vici, ra igulisxmeT geopolitikur xedvaSi,<br />
magram rogorc ar unda ganvviTardeT, geografiuli mdgomareoba mniSvnelovnad<br />
gansazRvravs politikas. is rom erTi mxridan Savi zRva gvaqvs, iqiT aris kaspiis<br />
zRva, CrdiloeT kavkasia da ruseTi, gansazRvravs Cvens politikur momentebs. gvinda<br />
Tu ara, asea. SeiZleba am sakiTxebs ufro didi mniSvneloba mivaniWoT, an piriqiT,<br />
magram es erT-erTi ganmsazRvreli faqtoria, Cemi azriT. geopolitikuri faqtori<br />
moqmedebs imis damoukideblad, Sen ra ginda.<br />
ramaz sayvareliZe _ patara qveynis strategia yovelTvis aris didi qveynebis<br />
SuaSi moqceuli. magram xSirad arc didi qveynebi arian monopolistebi. erTaderTi,<br />
raSic vkamaTobT me da batoni daviTi, is aris, unda Tu ara ruseTs eqskluzivi, Tu<br />
moilaparakebs amerikasTan imaze, rac saWiroa. niSandoblivia CemTvis is, rom<br />
yvelaferi gayida saqarTvelom milis garda da arc ruseTs daubomvavs es mili omis<br />
dros. ase rom Cven varT teritoriaze, sadac ruseTi da amerika erTmaneTs<br />
uTanxmdebian.<br />
daviT jiSkariani _ saqarTvelos mier CrdiloeT kavkasiis garkveuli eTnikuri<br />
jgufebis aRiareba, maTi genocidis aRiareba rogor imoqmedebs qarTul-rusul<br />
urTierTobebze perspeqtivaSi?<br />
15
daviT zurabiSvili _ SemiZlia Zalian mokled mogaxsenoT Cemi azri.<br />
uaryofiTad imoqmedebs.<br />
irakli menaRariSvili _ Tqven xedavT alternativas, rom SeiZleba sxvanairad<br />
imoqmedos? Sedegi mxolod destruqciuli iqneba. es ar niSnavs imas, rom<br />
zneobriobis momenti sagareo politikaSi daviviwyoT, magram aris pragmatuli<br />
midgoma, romelSic unda movaqcioT Cveni Sexedulebebi. saqarTvelos sazogadoeba<br />
dRes ar aris sakmarisad informirebuli imisTvis, rom aseT sakiTxebze imsjelos.<br />
ase rom zogierTi procesi, rac iqna wamowyebuli, rbilad rom vTqvaT, Zalian<br />
Tamamia, xolo Tu realistebi viqnebiT, Zalian saSiSi. am pirobebSi myof<br />
saxelmwifos aseT saSiS TamaSebSi Cabmis resursi dRes ar gaaCnia. amas vambob mTeli<br />
Cemi pativiscemis miuxedavad im adamianebis xsovnis mimarT, vinc aseTi saSineli<br />
politikis msxverpli gaxda Tavis droze.<br />
giorgi jangiani _ Zalian saintereso <strong>diskusia</strong>a. Cemi azriT, am Temebze<br />
<strong>diskusia</strong> Tundac imisTvis aris aucilebeli, rom sazogadoeba ukeTesad iyos<br />
informirebuli, Camoyalibebuli da rom Cveni pozicia ar gadawyvitos mxolod 2013<br />
<strong>wlis</strong> arCevnebma.<br />
baton daviTTan meqneba kiTxva. Tqven aRniSneT, rom aris mesame gza, romelic<br />
gulisxmobs molaparakebebis aucileblobas ara marto ruseTTan, aramed evropasTan<br />
da amerikasTan dialogis SenarCunebasac. me es SesaZlebloba idealisturad mesaxeba.<br />
ra praqtikul SesaZleblobas xedavT saamisod?<br />
baton ramazTanac maqvs SekiTxva. Tqven axseneT qveyana, romelic Zalian<br />
aqtualuri gaxda _ irani. ram ganapiroba Tqvens mier am qveynis xseneba. xom ar<br />
ukavSirdeba es gilauris momaval vizits, romelic ukve dagegmilia, Tu icnobT<br />
kidev sxva faqtebs?<br />
daviT zurabiSvili _ me sxva gzas ver vxedav. vgulisxmob evrokavSirTan<br />
miaxloebis tendenciaze ufro meti prioritetis miniWebas. evropa ramdenad mzad<br />
aris, es erTia, magram es gulisxmobs qveynis Sida mowyobas, demokratiulobis<br />
xarisxis gazrdas, sakanonmdeblo sivrcis misadagebas evrokavSiris sakanonmdeblo<br />
sivrcesTan, da mibma im saerTaSoriso urTierTobebSi, iniciativebSi, vidre es aqamde<br />
iyo. dRes Cven sawinaaRmdego gziT mivdivarT. es exeba ekonomikur politikasac.<br />
bunebrivia, igulisxmeba ruseTTan urTierTobac, amerikis SeerTebul StatebTan<br />
urTierTobac. demokratiulobis xarisxi CemTvis niSnavs met konsolidacias qveynis<br />
sazogadoebis SigniTac Tundac ruseTTan urTierTobasTan mimarTebaSic. viRac<br />
SeiZleba fiqrobs, rom unda SevaskdeT, magram es kargs arafers mogvitans, an<br />
piriqiT, viyoT pasiurebi, rogorc dRes varT, arc es mgonia damTavrdes kargi<br />
SedegiT. moqmedebis sxva gzas ver vxedav.<br />
ramaz sayvareliZe _ iranTan dakavSirebiT met informacias arc me vflob,<br />
magram, Cemi azriT, rac viciT, esec sakmarisia imisTvis, rom vifiqroT. imitom rom<br />
16
aSkarad gamococxlda qarTul-iranuli urTierToba mas mere, rac mTel rig qveynebSi<br />
gauWirda kontaqti umaRles pirebTan Cvens xelisuflebas. Tuki es gamococxleba<br />
orientaciis Secvlis Sedegia, aqac iZebneba logika. Tu xelisuflebas evropa da<br />
amerika sayvedurobs demokratias, mosaZebnia mxare, romelic am sayvedurs ar ityvis<br />
da Tan romelTan urTierTobac SesaZloa maprovocirebeli iyos didi qveynebisTvis.<br />
giorgi jangiani _ Tuki irans momaval zurgad davsaxavdiT, am SemTxvevaSi<br />
rogor ganawildeba ruseTis interesebi an amerikis iniciativa CvenTan dakavSirebiT.<br />
an ra pozicias daikavebs evropa.<br />
ramaz sayvareliZe _ sagulisxmoa is, rom paralelurad icvleba ruseTis da<br />
iranis urTierTobac. ar aris gamoricxuli, rom obamas mier SemoTavazebuli sistema<br />
ruseTTan, CineTTan da am qveynebTan partioroba raRac problemebis gadawyvetaSi<br />
gaaCens qveynebis iseT bloks, romelSic am didi qveynebis gavlena Semcirdeba.<br />
SesaZloa aseT blokSi aRmovCndeT. evropisken mimavali energiuli nabijiT SeiZleba<br />
mivideT iranamde.<br />
giorgi nusxelaZe _ iTqva, rom ruseTis gavlena saqarTveloze Sesustda. Cemi<br />
azriT, es gavlena ki ar Sesustda, ruseTi cdilobs saqarTvelos iseTi dapyroba<br />
iswavlos, rogorsac amerika axorcielebs Cvens qveyanaze. garda amisa, evropasac aqvs<br />
Tavisi susti mxareebi. bolo-bolo uari Tqvas gazze, dasxdnen cota xani siciveSi<br />
da Wkua aswavlon ruseTs.<br />
batono daviT, Tqven TqviT, rom 2013 wlamde ruseTis xelisufleba ar<br />
daelaparakeba saqarTvelos mxares, magram Tu gamarTlda Worebi, rom CvenTan<br />
momavali prezidenti SesaZloa gigi ugulava gaxdes, premier-ministri ki saakaSvili,<br />
ruseTSi ki, putini _ prezidenti da medvedevi _ premier-ministri, maSin ra azri<br />
aqvs 2013 <strong>wlis</strong> lodins? mivuSvaT opozicia da maTi daxmarebiT movagvaroT<br />
urTierToba.<br />
daviT zurabiSvili _ ruseTisTvis sasurvelia misTvis xelsayreli<br />
xelisuflebis mosvla. saprezidento arCevnebi ki mas amis Sanss aZlevs. amisTvis<br />
rogor moemzadeba da ra procesebs ganaxorcielebs qarTul Sida politikur<br />
cxovrebaSi, es calke Temaa. cxadia, is Seecdeba iseTi xelisuflebis moyvanas,<br />
romelic daasrulebs im process, romelic didwilad mas ukve ganxorcielebuli<br />
aqvs. vgulisxmob mis eqskluziuri gavlenis sferoSi qarTuli saxelmwifos moqcevas.<br />
konkretulad romel personaze gakeTdeba arCevani maT mier, es sxva sakiTxia.<br />
irakli menaRariSvili _ iranis Temis irgvliv ukanasknel periodSi marTlac<br />
gaCnda informacia. bevri araferi viciT, magram esec sakmarisia imisTvis, rom<br />
SeSfoTeba gamoewvia sazogadoebis im nawilSi, visac esmis ra xdeba. reaqcia amas<br />
maSinve mohyva. prezidentis administraciam maSinve ganacxada, rom ahmadinejadi ar<br />
mouwveviaT. situacias ase Sevafasebdi, marTlac gadaidga calkeuli nabijebi,<br />
romlebmac ar datova dabalansebulis STabeWdileba. arada CvenTvis kategoriulad<br />
17
aucilebelia iranTan keTilmezobluri urTierTobis SenarCuneba, istoriuli<br />
TanamSromlobis gagrZeleba, dialogis SenarCuneba. amasTan erTad yovelive amis<br />
Zalian mkacri balansis reJimSi ganxorcieleba. gaCnda am balansis darRvevis eWvebi<br />
da mas mohyva reaqcia. miuxedavad imisa, rom saqarTvelo damoukidebeli saxelmwifoa,<br />
mogexsenebaT, absoluturad Tavisufali aravin da araferi ar aris, yvelafers aqvs<br />
Tavisi limitebi da Sesabamisad amitomac ar meCveneba, rom apokalipturi scena,<br />
romelic b-ma ramazma aRwera, realurad SeiZleba ganxorcieldes. Tumca nu<br />
gamovricxavT imas, rom viRacas SeiZleba marTlac mouvides TavSi aseTi arcTu<br />
racionaluri idea. SeiZleba mibaZon me-20 saukunis meore naxevris politikosebs,<br />
romlebic aseTi balansirebis politikiT marTlac aRwevdnen warmatebebs. gaixseneT<br />
iugoslaviis magaliTi. magram axla is dro aRar aris da arc saqarTveloa<br />
saxelmwifo, romelsac aseTi raRacis keTeba SeuZlia. iranTan Zalian delikaturi<br />
politikis gatareba gvmarTebs da amas aqvs Tavisi sazRvrebi. Zalian kargad unda<br />
grZnobdes am sazRvrebs is adamiani, vinc iranTan politikas gegmavs da axorcielebs.<br />
giorgi SubiTiZe, konfliqtologi _ batono irakli, Tqven axseneT, rom<br />
agvistos oms Tu mohyva pozitiuri Sedegebi, esenia haidi taliavinis komisiis<br />
daskvna, romelSic cxadad iTqva ruseTis rolze am konfliqtSi, da evrokavSiris<br />
gaaqtiureba am konfliqTTn mimarTebaSi.<br />
irakli menaRariSvili _ davazusteb, es ar aris omis Sedegi. es aris im<br />
movlenebis Sedegi, romlebic aq moxda. es iyo ara omis pozitiuri Sedegi, aramed<br />
ori pozitiuri niSani saqarTvelos interesebidan gamomdinare.<br />
ramaz sayvareliZe _ davumateb im Tanxas, romelic gamoiyo am omis Semdeg da<br />
es krizisi gadagvatanina.<br />
giorgi SubiZiZe _ guSin wavikiTxe informacia imis Sesaxeb, rom evrokavSirSi<br />
daiwyo <strong>diskusia</strong> samxreT kavkasiaSi sagangebo warmomadgenlis misiis gauqmebasTan<br />
dakavSirebiT. es pozicia SesaZloa gauqmdes mxolod samxreT kavkasiasa da<br />
moldoveTSi. ra reaqcia eqneba amaze ruseTs.<br />
irakli menaRariSvili _ Cems xelT arsebuli informaciiT, es dakavSirebulia<br />
lisabonis xelSekrulebis ZalaSi Sesvlis Semdeg Sida gadaadgilebebsa da<br />
biurokratiuli aparatis gadawyobasTan evrokavSirSi. es cvlileba politikuri<br />
datvirTvis matarebeli ar gaxlavT. Tumca SekiTxva koreqtulia, ruseTma is<br />
SeiZleba waikiTxos rogorc evrokavSiris aqtiurobis klebad regionSi da amisTvis,<br />
Cemi azriT, sagareo saqmeTa saministroSi aucilebelia saswrafod dialogi<br />
evrokavSirTan, rom msgavsi mesiji dabalansdes raime sxva gzavniliT. imedi maqvs<br />
amaze fiqroben. Tavis droze es Tanamdeboba ar Seqmnila aRmosavleT partniorobis<br />
programiT, uSualod mas ar ukavSirdeba.<br />
18
ciala qaTamaZe _ aq iTqva, rom aucilebelia osebTan da afxazebTan pirdapiri<br />
dialogi. ramdenad realurad migaCniaT Jenevis formatis gadaxedva, qarTvelebis da<br />
afxazebis uSualo dialogi.<br />
daviT zurabiSvili _ dRes es gacilebiT ufro rTulia, vidre adre, Tumca<br />
Cemi azriT, aucilebelia. saxalxo diplomatia iqneba Tu arasamTavrobo seqtori, am<br />
resursis gamoyenebas saxelmwifo xels unda uwyobdes. saxelmwifos nebis gareSe es<br />
SeuZlebelia.<br />
ciala qaTamaZe _ rogor fiqrobT, ra moyveba saqarTvelos mier xmamaRla<br />
gacxadebas, rom is uars ambobs ruseTTan dialogze da unda pirdapiri dialogi<br />
afxazebTan da osebTan.<br />
daviT zurabiSvili _ es Zalian miamituri gancxadeba iqneba da Sedegad imas<br />
miviRebT, rom arc is gamova da arc is.<br />
irakli menaRariSvili _ rogor warmogidgeniaT pirdapiri dialogi, vis unda<br />
elaparakos saqarTvelos saxelmwifo, samxreT oseTis an afxazeTis saxelmwifos?<br />
ciala qaTamaZe _ Tu marTla gvinda dialogi da problemis gadaWra, xom<br />
SeiZleba raRac davTmoT? yvelaze Zlieri Tmobs raRacas, raTa Tavisi siZliere<br />
daamtkicos.<br />
irakli menaRariSvili _ Tuki Tqvens mier SemoTavazebuli formati ar<br />
guslisxmobs imas, rogorc me gavige, maSin Cemi pasuxi calsaxa iqneba _ es<br />
aucilebelic aris da SesaZlebelic. nu gveqneba iluzia, rom sasurveli erT RameSi<br />
axdeba, es xSirad droSi gawelili procesia. magram unda arsebobdes mizani, romlis<br />
miRwevasac SevecdebiT.<br />
Tumca, unda gaviTvaliswinoT, rom saqarTvelos teritoriuli mTlianobis<br />
aRdgenis procesidan, konfliqtebis mowesrigebis procesidan ruseTis amogdeba misi<br />
ignorirebis gziT, Tavis motyuebaa. amitom ruseTTan dialogic saWiroa da<br />
saerTaSoriso Tanamegobrobis Zalisxmevis mobilizaciac imisaTvis, rom sabolood<br />
mivaRwioT imgvari pirobebis Seqmnas, rom Cveni Serigeba realuri gaxdes. am<br />
procesebSi yvela sityvas mniSvneloba aqvs, Cveni yvela moZraoba unda iyos erTiani<br />
strategiis nawili.<br />
diskusiis dasawyisSi vaxsene konfliqtebis mowesrigebis strategia, romelic<br />
gamoqveynebulia. miuxedavad im SeniSvnebisa, romlebic mis mimarT jer kidev arsebobs,<br />
es Zalian pozitiuri movlenaa. imitom rom aris koreqtuli ganacxadebis nakrebi.<br />
magram mas Sesrulebac sWirdeba. imitom rom aseTi fenomeni adrec iyo, jer kidev<br />
90-ian wlebSi, rodesac saqarTvelom saqveynod ganacxada da gaeros generalur<br />
asambleas warudgina memorandumi, sadac amtkicebda, rom igi mxolod mSvidobiani<br />
gziT gadawyvetda Tavisi teritoriuli konfliqtebis problemas. Tumca, Semdeg<br />
gilaevis razmi gamoCnda afxazeTSi. Tu aseTi araTanmimdevrulebi viqnebiT, es<br />
19
strategia ki ara, civi omis periodis stilze morgebuli diplomatiuri fari iqneba<br />
raRac TamaSebisTvis da ara gulwrfeli survili Serigebisa.<br />
giorgi keJeraSvili, Tsu studenti _ batono ramaz, Tu Tqveni varaudi<br />
sworad gavige, ruseTs sakmaod Zviri ujdeba afxazeTis da samxreT oseTis okupacia,<br />
rodesac maTgan sargebels veRar naxavs, Tu is pragmatuli saxelmwifoa, misgan<br />
racionaluri gadawyvetileba iqneba am regionebis mitoveba. xom ar iqneba es<br />
negatiuri precedenti imisa, rom man gamoiyena da miatova sakuTari partniori. ra<br />
reaqcia eqnebaT amaze Tundac centralur aziaSi.<br />
ramaz sayvareliZe _ wertili kiTxvisa kargad aris napovni, magram me mgoni eg<br />
varianti wina kiTxvebTan aris kavSirSi. kerZod imasTan, molaparakeba moxerxdeba Tu<br />
ara. ruseTi Sedis am regionebSi da Sedis sakmaod mZimed. osebi ar vici rogor<br />
afaseben am process, magram afxazeTSi garusebis process Zalian mtkivneulad<br />
ganicdian. es procesi Tu gaZlierda, afxazebi mwvaved aRar ganicdian mere ruseTis<br />
Ralats, piriqiT, da SenTan molaparakebazec ufro wamovlen. imitom rom misTvis<br />
SeiZleba ara aqvs didi gansxvaveba, magram kidev ufro uaresia ruseTma gaukeTos<br />
asimilacia, vidre saqarTvelom. perspeqtivaSi es sakiTxi dadgeba.<br />
vaxtang wowonava _ unda daveTanxmo baton ramazs, saubari imis Sesaxeb, rom<br />
kidev raime uaress unda movelodeT ruseTisgan, fantastikis nawils warmoadgens.<br />
maSin rodesac biznesis yvela sfero ruseTis xelSia, rodesac maTi regularuli<br />
armia Tbilisidan 40 km-Si imyofeba. sxva amaze uaress ras unda movelodeT. mimaCnia,<br />
rom ruseTis SeswavlisTvis didi dro iqna dakarguli. gagaxsenebT, 2008 <strong>wlis</strong><br />
agvistos omis Semswavleli saparlamento komisiis sxdomas, rodesac sagareo<br />
dazvervis xelmZRvanelma gela beJuaSvilma kiTxvaze, hqondaT Tu ara informacia<br />
imis Sesaxeb, rom ruseTi Caebmeboda aseT farTomasStabian saomar moqmedebebSi,<br />
upasuxa, rom isini ar elodnen amas. me warmomedgina, rom specsamsaxurebi cota<br />
ufro racionalur monacemebze dayrdnobiT muSaobdnen da ara marCielobdnen, raRac<br />
moxdeboda Tu ara.<br />
ramdenad perspeqtiulad migaCniaT batono irakli, ruseTisgan im daTmobebis<br />
miReba, rac CvenTvis sasicocxlod mniSvnelovania. pirvel rigSi vgulisxmob<br />
usafrTxoebis garantias, rom aRar ganmeordeba omi, da teritoriuli mTlianobis<br />
aRdgenas.<br />
irakli menaRariSvili _ is praqtika, romelic gvaqvs ukanasknel periodSi<br />
msoflioSi, vgulisxmob me-20 saukunis meore naxevars, gvaZlevs Cemi azriT imis<br />
safuZvels, rom imedi viqonioT, rom amocanis aseTi dasma koreqtulia. faqtorebi,<br />
romlebic aseT varauds dagvaSvebinebs, aris ruseTis interesebi, globaluri<br />
tendenciebi, ris gamoc uSualo samezobloSi msgavsi daZabuli situacia nebismieri<br />
saxelmwifos, maT Soris yvelaze didi saxelmwifos interesebs ewinaaRmdegeba. aseTi<br />
perspeqtiva mxolod xangrZliv periodSi SeiZleba iyos navaraudevi, imitom rom<br />
aseTi sakiTxis swrafad gadawyvetis magaliTi jer ar gvqonia. iyo momentebi, roca<br />
20
SeiZleboda sakiTxis mogvareba swori gziT wasuliyo, magram samwuxarod es<br />
momentebi xelidan gavuSviT. amitom axla meti moTmineba gvWirdeba. magram es ar<br />
niSnavs ruseTis ignorirebas, es niSnavs aqtiur muSaobas. dialogi sulac ar niSnavs<br />
daTmobas da calmxrivi kompromisebis keTebas. es unda iyos swored im dRis<br />
wesrigisken svla, romelic orive qveynis interesebs unda pasuxobdes.<br />
xaTuna murRulia _ SeiZleba Tu ara, rom dialogze uaris Tqma iyos<br />
situaciidan erT-erTi gamosavali. magaliTad, saqarTvelo ganviTardes ruseTTan<br />
dialogis gareSe da davelodoT CvenTvis xelsayrel istoriul momentebs, rogorc<br />
germania gaerTianda 50 <strong>wlis</strong> Semdeg. SeiZleba es meTodi iyos erT-erTi gamosavali?<br />
_ rogor fiqrobT, raze unda gavakeToT aqcenti, teritoriul mTlianobaze<br />
Tu imaze, rom gavzardoT Cveni suvereniteti da SevqmnaT ekonomikurad<br />
damoukidebeli saxelmwifo?<br />
irakli menaRariSvili _ Tu qveyanaSi misi Sida stabiluroba ar daefuZneba<br />
demokratiul institutebs, Zlier saxelmwifoze saubari zedmeti iqneba. efeqturi<br />
partnioroba siZlieris poziciidan ki ar aris saWiro, aramed im poziciebidan,<br />
rodesac SegiZlia xma miawvdino partniors, rogorc Semdgarma saxelmwifom. sxvaTa<br />
Soris, mcire saxelmwifoebisaTvis, iseTi, rogoric saqarTveloa, usafrTxoebis<br />
uzrunvelyofis erT-erTi yvelaze gavrcelebuli modeli aris usafrTxoebis<br />
koleqtiur sistemaSi monawileoba. amitomac gvindoda Cven natoSi Sesvla. aseT<br />
struqturas rom earseba dsT-s sivrceSi, arc misi sawinaaRmdego unda gvqonoda<br />
rame, Tuki is daicavda Cveni qveynis suverenitets da mosaxleobis keTildReobisTvis<br />
bazisur pirobebs uzrunvelyofda. magram dsT-Si aseTi struqturis Seqmna<br />
warmoudgeneli iyo im Rirebulebebidan gamomdinare, rac iq iyo.<br />
rac Seexeba dialogze uaris Tqmas, Znelad warmomidgenia aman problema<br />
gadawyvitos. imitom rom dialogSi mxolod saubars xom ar vgulisxmobT. ruseTTan<br />
aseTi urTierTobis yoveli dRe Cveni saxelmwifos interesebis winaaRmdeg muSaobs.<br />
es ar gaxlavT mxolod ekonomikuri danakargi, romlis kompensirebac SesaZlebelia,<br />
aq uamravi sxva ganzomilebaa.<br />
magda guruli, xelovnebaTmcodne _ mainteresebs Tqveni azri, ra moxdeboda<br />
saqarTvelos rom Tavad eRiarebina samxreT oseTi da afxazeTi? da mere migvexeda<br />
sakuTari qveynis ganviTrebisTvis. Tqven fiqrobT, rom am SemTxvevaSi ruseTi ufro<br />
metad SemoiWreboda? mrCeba STabeWdileba, rom konfliqti awyobs yvelas, rogorc<br />
Cvens prezidentobis kandidatebs, ise ruseTs. yvela kargad iyenebs am situacias da<br />
ara mgonia, vinmes hqondes am konfliqtebis mowesrigebis motivacia.<br />
minda kidev erTi ram gavixseno, `vardebis revoluciis~ Semdeg Sevxvdi<br />
soxumidan naTesavebTan Camosul ramdenime adamians, maSin jer kidev iyo kontaqtis<br />
saSualeba. iyo saubari qarTuli bankebis filialebis gaxsnaze, es xalxi Zalian<br />
mondomebuli iyo. maSin Zalian bevri ramis gakeTeba SeiZleboda Cemi azriT, magram<br />
21
atomRac konfrontaciuli gza avirCieT. amitom, rodesac ruseTze vlaparakobT,<br />
arc sakuTari Secdomebi unda daviviwyoT, rom momavalSi aRar gavimeoroT.<br />
daviT zurabiSvili _ jer erTi, ar yofila amis saWiroeba, afxazebTanac da<br />
osebTanac gonivruli politikis meSveobiT Tavisuflad SeiZleboda sxvagvari<br />
urTierTobis awyoba. Cveni mxridan iniciativis gamoCena, rom damoukidebloba<br />
eRiarebinaT, swori ar iqneboda. omis merec iyo aseTi SesaZleblobebi. maTi<br />
damoukideblobis aRiareba Cven damatebiT sxva problemebsac Segviqmnida, magaliTad<br />
javaxeTSi. saxelmwifo interesebidan gamomdinare es ubralod gamoricxuli iyo. Cems<br />
gamosvlaSi vTqvi, rom qveynis demokratiul da ekonomikur ganviTarebas unda mieqces<br />
prioritetuli yuradReba, Tumca ruseTis ignorireba da dakarguli teritoriebis<br />
daviwyeba SeuZlebelia. qveynis Sida ganviTarebas ver gamovyofT am situaciidan. Sida<br />
ganviTareba gamoricxavs erTi mxriv konfrontacias ruseTTan da meore mxriv,<br />
Cabarebis politikas.<br />
ramaz sayvareliZe _ veTanxmebi orive momxsenebels, rom izolacia<br />
SeuZlebelia. batoni iraklis CamonaTvals davumatebdi imas, rom ruseTSi erTi<br />
milioni qarTveli cxovrobs, romelic gzavnis saqarTveloSi finansebs. meorec, ras<br />
iZleva es strategia, ras gvaZlevs gabutvis politika, ra logikas efuZneba? Tuki<br />
aRmoCndeba, rom partnioruli politikuri klimati dgeba, maSin sul gaugebari<br />
xdeba gabutvis stili.<br />
rac Seexeba aRiarebas, aqac vewinaaRmdegebiT logikas. Tuki ruseTs es<br />
regionebi zewolisTvis sWirdeba, maTi Cvens mier aRiareba ruseTis interesebSi ar<br />
Sedioda da is sxva rames mogiwyobda. Tan sad dagaxvedrebda am aRiarebas, aravin<br />
icis.<br />
ivliane xaindrava, `respublikuri partiis~ wevri _ dRevandel <strong>diskusia</strong>s<br />
fonad gasdevda, rom ruseTi cudia, evropam gagvyida da ar dagvicva. evropisTvis<br />
cota Zneli iqneboda Cveni dacva Cvenive ugunurebisgan. Tvali gadavavloT<br />
ukanaskneli oci <strong>wlis</strong> istorias. sul raRac ubedureba xdeba Cvens Tavs, mudmivad<br />
Cndeba inspiratori, agresori. 80-90-iani wlebis mijnaze oseTSi lokaluri omi<br />
albaT marTlac ruseTis inspirirebuli iyo, magram masSi qarTvelebi ibrZodnen,<br />
afxazeTSic, albaT esec ruseTis inspirirebuli iyo, magram Cven SeviyvaneT jari. iyo<br />
kodoris movlenebi, gilaevis reidi. 2004 wels farTomasStabiani omidan erT<br />
nabijSi gavCerdiT. 2008 wels moxda omi, isic cxadia viRacis inspirirebuli iyo,<br />
magram ratomRac yvelaferi qarTvelebis xeliT keTdeboda. cota davfiqrdeT da<br />
movlenebs am kuTxidanac SevxedoT. mxolod ruseTi ar aris cudi, mxolod evropa<br />
ar aris gamyidveli, mxolod obamas ar gadauxvevia kursidan. iqneb Cvens<br />
sazogadoebaSi ar aris raRac ise, rogorc unda iyos. iqneb gavaanalizoT es<br />
yvelaferi da aviRoT Cveni wili pasuxismgebloba sakuTar Tavze.<br />
irakli menaRariSvili _ Znelia ar daeTanxmo ivlianes. marTlac ukeTesi<br />
iqneba, Tu Cvens wil pasuxismgeblobas vitvirTavT, imisTvis raTa aRar gavimeoroT<br />
22
Secdomebi. imitom ara, rom yvelaferSi Cven varT damnaSaveebi. yvelafer amas<br />
sWirdeba koreqtuli midgoma da ufro meti codna, Tu ra xdeba Cvens irgvliv da<br />
Cveni politikis ageba swored amaze. da bolos, rodesac dialogze da rusulqarTuli<br />
urTierTobis perspeqtivebze vsaubrobT, unda amovideT sruliad banaluri<br />
WeSmaritebidan, rom keTilmezoblur dabalansebul urTierTobas mezoblebTan<br />
alternativa ara aqvs. es Cveni amocana unda iyos da misgan Tavs ver daviZvrenT.<br />
SeuZlebelia qveynis ganviTareba daubalanseblad. amitom minda yvelam davijeroT,<br />
rom es amocana gadasawyvetia, oRond ise, rom qveynis interesebs Seesabamebodes.<br />
daviT zurabiSvili _ rasakvirvelia, CvenSia yvela problema da es Sida<br />
sakiTxia, magram qarTuli kulturisTvis damaxasiaTebelia erTi ucnauri fenomeni,<br />
romelic scildeba dRevandeli diskusiis Temas, magram SeiZleba iTqvas, rom TiTqmis<br />
ar mogvepoveba sakuTari warsulis kritikulad gaazrebis precedenti. es exeba ara<br />
marto uaxles, aramed saqarTvelos istorias saukuneebis ganmavlobaSi. erTaderTi<br />
precedentia daviT aRmaSeneblis `galobani sinanulisani~, da amazec yvela ambobs, ra<br />
hqonda mosananiebeli. ratomRac ara varT orientirebulebi imaze, rom kargad<br />
gavaanalizoT momxdari. ar gviyvars Secdomebis aRiareba arc politikaSi, arc sxva<br />
sferoSi. es Zalian arTulebs imis gaazrebas, momavalSi ra unda gavakeToT. amitom<br />
mudmivad vuSvebT erTsa da imave Secdomebs.<br />
zviad qoriZe _ albaT bolo oci <strong>wlis</strong> istoria amyarebs im argumentebs, rac<br />
bolos movismineT. faqtia, rom aseTi realobis winaSe dgas Cveni sazogadoebac da<br />
saxelmwifoc. interesi am Temis mimarT marTlac didi iyo. SeiZleba raRac<br />
monakveTebSi avcdiT diskusiis mTavar xazs, magram darwmunebuli var, rom<br />
mTlianobaSi mainc SevecadeT, rom gvesaubra imaze, Tu ras warmoadgens saqarTveloruseTis<br />
urTierTobebi dRevandel viTarebaSi da aqvs Tu ara mas dinamiur reJimSi<br />
gadasvlis perspeqtiva.<br />
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