Ticketing and Concessionary Travel on Public Transport - United ...

12 December 2007 Mr Tom Harris MP <strong>and</strong> Mr Bob Linnard
Mr Linnard: What we can look at is what has
happened to bus patronage in areas where there was
already free travel, some of the PTEs for example,
compared to what has happened to bus patronage
when free travel was introduced. Looking at the
diVerence between those gives you some idea of the
underlying trend in bus patronage compared to what
is happening as a consequence of more generous
concessionary travel being introduced.
Q483 Graham Stringer: It is an important point
because it is a matter of both political debate <strong>and</strong> of
government policy to increase patronage. We need
to underst<strong>and</strong> what is happening, so would you give
a commitment to at least look at preparing statistics
so that we can make those comparisons?
Mr Harris: Absolutely. I see no benefit in the
Government trying to make those kinds of statistics
less available or less transparent.
Q484 Clive EVord: Are you stipulating on the
smartcard technology for the concessionary fare
that it should identify where the card was issued
from?
Mr Harris: I think all the cards do actually contain
a mark about which authority issued them.
Q485 Clive EVord: In the long term, some local
authorities you will be aware of are concerned about
reciprocity, who is going to be paying for the journey
undertaken, so if somebody comes to a tourist area,
uses their concessionary fare card, goes back home,
that local authority gets billed for that journey. If
that could be recharged back to the local authority
where the card was issued then some of those fears
might not come about. Is there any plan in the long
term to have the smartcard technology able to
identify where the card was issued no matter where
it was used so that recharge can be made?
Mr Harris: Mr Linnard may wish to come in on this
after I have spoken. I am not aware of any plans to
change the funding regime but, as I said earlier on,
unless you have a working smartcard system you are
never going to be able to actually trace <strong>and</strong> calculate
what those passengers’ journeys are <strong>and</strong> where
people are travelling. I think the information we are
going to get from the use of the smartcard system
will actually make the funding regime more robust
because we will actually now who is using it <strong>and</strong>
what the numbers are, but I do not know whether
that is part of the act.
Mr Linnard: The way it will work is that the local
authority in which the journey takes place or starts
has to reimburse the bus operator; that is the basis
principle of it. To get a completely diVerent system
where the home local authority system pays for any
journey regardless of where in the country it was
made you would need readers in all the buses which
do not exist at the moment. You would need a
completely diVerent level of technology.
Q486 Clive EVord: If that is the way you want to end
up you should be planning for it now.
Transport Committee: Evidence Ev 59
Mr Linnard: It is not necessarily where we need to
end up. As long as we have got—<strong>and</strong> we think we
have—a fair system for distributing funding to the
local authorities that are going to meet the most
costs.
Q487 Clive EVord: Can we ever have a fully
operational smartcard or concessionary fare scheme
whilst we have a deregulated market out of London
or a fragmented market on the rail system?
Mr Harris: Yes, I think you can. Once you have that
system there may be avenues for improving the
whole scheme by changing that regulation, but I
think it is certainly possible to have an eVective
smartcard system that works throughout the
country that people underst<strong>and</strong> <strong>and</strong> which give
people the best deal for their particular journey. It
happens in Scotl<strong>and</strong> although the readers have not
yet been introduced on the buses there, but there is
a smartcard system, there is a concessionary bus
system which is nationwide. The buses are not any
more regulated there than they are here.
Q488 Clive EVord: Do you think we will ever get to
a position where either the train operating
companies or the bus operators will not act in their
own interests against the interests of through
ticketing scheme, whether it is smartcard or any
other form?
Mr Harris: I think there is a very good commercial
argument to say that the bus operators should
embrace this kind of technology. I do not think this
is a threat to bus operators’ revenues; quite the
opposite. I think there is a lot to be gained by bus
operators in introducing this kind of technology. I
do not accept the argument that bus operators will
not want to have some kind of integrated
smartcard system.
Q489 Chairman: I take it you do not know any bus
operators.
Mr Harris: I have met a few of them.
Q490 Chairman: Are you satisfied that people can
appeal satisfactorily against penalty fares?
Mr Harris: It is an independent appeals process.
Q491 Chairman: Forgive me, Minister, but it is not
exactly, is it? The railway companies themselves
actually appoint whoever is dealing with the penalty
fare system <strong>and</strong> it is not very clear how they operate
or what their criteria are.
Mr Harris: The criteria I think are quite clear.
Penalty fare systems have to be approved by the
secretary of state for transport.
Q492 Chairman: There is not an independent
appeals panel, is there?
Mr Harris: It is certainly arm’s length from the
company where the dispute has taken place <strong>and</strong>
anyone not satisfied with that can appeal.