Ticketing and Concessionary Travel on Public Transport - United ...

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Ev 56 Transport Committee: Evidence 12 December 2007 Mr Tom Harris MP <strong>and</strong> Mr Bob Linnard by somebody else. There is always a danger that even if you get a name <strong>and</strong> address it is not actually the right person. I am actually quite concerned about the safety of train staV in that situation. If somebody is employed to collect <strong>and</strong> inspect tickets I do not think it would be fair, certainly not on every occasion, to expect them to start to tackle anti-social behaviour. I met a delegation yesterday from GMB union who are very concerned about perceived increases in very violent <strong>and</strong> sexual crime on the Nottingham tram. These are people who are not on terrific wages in order to protect <strong>and</strong> collect revenue. I do not think we should be putting people unnecessarily in harm’s way by asking them to do more than simply collect tickets <strong>and</strong> identify where is safe <strong>and</strong> the people who are evading the fares. I think it is a very diYcult issue but I think the actual apprehension of people who are creating anti-social behaviour has to be left to British Transport Police rather than to staV who are trained in checking tickets who are not trained <strong>and</strong> should not be expected to tackle sometimes quite violent people. Q458 Graham Stringer: Do you think that there should be more funding for British Transport Police? Mr Harris: I am always in favour of more funding for the British Transport Police but the one caveat I have on that is that British Transport Police should continue to be funded by the train operating companies. Q459 Graham Stringer: With all respect your answer is saying that there is a problem; you are accepting there is a problem, particularly on the south London network, but actually there is nothing the Government can do about what is at least a threatening situation. Incidentally, the estimate given by previous witnesses was £400 million lost in fare dodging. There are two questions there, do you not think that the public authorities should do more to protect people, it is not just a private sector problem? Secondly, you are the train minister, will you be having discussions with the train operating companies to ask them what action they are taking to protect their shareholders <strong>and</strong> their bottom line as it were to collect tickets which will have a beneficial eVect? Mr Harris: Yes, I will be raising this with the Association of Train Operating Companies next time I meet them. Train operating companies have a commitment in their franchise for revenue protection but they are also, I think, under an obligation to make sure that the service they provide which, after all is paid for <strong>and</strong> specified by the Government, is a service that is of a certain minimal quality <strong>and</strong> that is not just in terms of how punctual they are, it is also about how safe people feel on board a train. We are progressing very successfully with the Secure Station Initiative; certain stations are certified by the British Transport Police as secure stations if there is a certain level <strong>and</strong> type of lighting, presence of close circuit television cameras et cetera. That has proved very successful in reassuring people. I think that is what it is about, people should not think that travel by train is a particularly dangerous activity. It is not, but I do underst<strong>and</strong> that people do feel vulnerable so it is very important not just on trains but at stations as well. I mentioned gating earlier on. I accept there is only anecdotal evidence but there is evidence that gating at a station can make people on the other side of the gates feel quite secure because they then know that nobody without a ticket is going to join them <strong>and</strong> a lot of the diYculties <strong>and</strong> trouble caused at stations, especially at night, are by people who do not have tickets <strong>and</strong> who are just using stations to congregate at. Q460 Chairman: Can I ask you about ITSO? Are you quite confident that it is fit for purpose, if it actually is evolved right the way across the United Kingdom? Mr Harris: Yes, is the short answer to that. I think ITSO has many advantages. The comparison is always made between ITSO <strong>and</strong> Oyster for obvious reasons—I am a big fan of Oyster; I have two Oyster cards—but I think the ITSO st<strong>and</strong>ard allows us to do more with an ITSO card than will ever be possible with Oyster. Q461 Chairman: I should explain to you that we had evidence that it is a slow system, that it is not very businesslike, it is two years behind programme because it has not been fully tested in-house. TranSys have made it clear that someone really has to take control of this programme. How eVective is ITSO as an organisation? Mr Harris: The DfT has committed to funding ITSO over the next year by £750,000. A condition of that funding is that we are going to carry out a full review of the organisation to make sure that they have proper resources, expertise, personnel to make sure it is eVective. Q462 Chairman: How likely is it that all these new technologies such as contactless bank cards <strong>and</strong> mobile phones are going to make ITSO obsolete? Mr Harris: ITSO is not a smartcard, it is a st<strong>and</strong>ard. Q463 Chairman: A st<strong>and</strong>ard that we are told has been overtaken by all sorts of other new bits of technology which can do the job better <strong>and</strong> faster <strong>and</strong> perhaps more eYciently. You know yourself, Minister, from your own oYce that when you came in here originally you must have had one level of computer, we are now waiting on diVerent technology, faster, smarter, easier to use for people like me. It is not beyond belief that this st<strong>and</strong>ard has now been past by other people going faster <strong>and</strong> better. Mr Harris: The big selling point of ITSO is that it is very flexible. For example, although it has been rolled out as part of the concessionary scheme next April, it is currently possible, if the commercial will is there, to put ITSO information on your mobile phone <strong>and</strong> use that as a smartcard. ITSO is not simply a credit card sized card with a chip in it, it is a st<strong>and</strong>ard which can be applied to all sorts of things that in future will become far more normal to consider using.
Q464 Chairman: Is Transport Direct fully integrated with the system? Mr Harris: With ITSO? 12 December 2007 Mr Tom Harris MP <strong>and</strong> Mr Bob Linnard Q465 Chairman: With the travel information coming from local authorities <strong>and</strong> PTEs? Mr Harris: Transport Direct is a website which gives up to date information about, for example, carbon footprint of diVerent modes of transport, travel times et cetera. There have been 20 million visitors since it was launched. I am not aware of any direct interface with ITSO but in future whatever journey you are going to make I hope more <strong>and</strong> more people become aware that Transport Direct can absolutely contribute to making that journey seamless. Q466 Chairman: Your view is that ITSO is a good st<strong>and</strong>ard, it is flexible, it can be adapted to new increases in diVerent technology. That is your view. Mr Harris: Yes. Q467 Chairman: You intend to do a very full assessment of the workings of these systems. Mr Harris: There has been an on-going assessment of ITSO’s workability, if you like. Once we are into the new National <strong>Concessionary</strong> Scheme we will certainly do an analysis of that <strong>and</strong> that does use ITSO smartcard technology. Q468 Chairman: What about people who are not very happy with all the new gadgets <strong>and</strong> who like the old fashioned tickets <strong>and</strong> money <strong>and</strong> things like that? Are you going to look at the price diVerence between electronic tickets <strong>and</strong> conventional tickets? Mr Harris: Whether you choose to pay by cash or whether you choose to use a smartcard on trains your fare will continue to be capped if it is a regulated fare by 1% above the rate of inflation. If a train operator, however, wanted to reduce the cost of a regulated fare as much as through a smartcard then they would be perfectly entitled to do that provided that nobody choosing to pay by cash is going to pay above what the regulation states should be paid. That is the flexibility that train operating companies could use; whether they will or not is another matter. Q469 Chairman: Is Transport for London right when it says that the cost of adding ITSO to Oyster would be £50 million? Mr Harris: I do not have a figure. Mr Linnard: It is subject to the study we were describing earlier. It is only when we have seen that <strong>and</strong> when we have the negotiation with TfL informed by that study that we will know how much it is going to cost. Mr Harris: This takes us back to the question that Mr Stringer was asking just before the break about this diVerence between the time it takes for an ITSO card to be read through the reader <strong>and</strong> an Oyster card. I think the point here is that if we were simply going to change the information on the card so that an Oyster reader could read an ITSO card, that is where the delay comes in, that is where you have quite a big diVerential between an Oyster card <strong>and</strong> Transport Committee: Evidence Ev 57 an ITSO card. The £50 million or whatever the figure is of the capital cost is about changing the actual readers throughout London so that they will read ITSO <strong>and</strong> Oyster cards. When that happens that is when you get almost a negligible diVerence in the time it takes to read an Oyster <strong>and</strong> ITSO card. Q470 Chairman: Is all the personal information that is stored on this card going to be absolutely safe? Mr Harris: No personal information is stored on the chip. Q471 Chairman: Why are we being told that district councils are placing personal information like name, age <strong>and</strong> address on smartcard chips? Mr Harris: They certainly do not need to on ITSO. All the information on an ITSO card is held in the back oYce. The only information in total on the card is what is on the face of the card, your photograph <strong>and</strong> your name <strong>and</strong> that is for fraud purposes. All the other information about you should not be held on the chip, it should be in the back oYce. Q472 Clive EVord: Just before we broke for the vote I asked you about the information that is stored on the ITSO card that apparently, we were told, can be read by the pay as you go Oyster card which causes a delay when the card is swiped. Are you aware of this problem? Mr Harris: There are two ways of making ITSO <strong>and</strong> Oyster compatible in London. One way is to allow the Oyster reader to read both cards. That is where you hit the delays <strong>and</strong> nobody wants that. I underst<strong>and</strong> why Transport for London do not want that because you end up with having a lot of people backing up on the turnstiles <strong>and</strong> causing a lot of delays <strong>and</strong> probably some safety issues as well. What we foresee happening in the next few years is the actual readers being replaced so that they will read ITSO <strong>and</strong> Oyster cards <strong>and</strong> you do not have to choose which reader to go; you can go to any reader whether you have an ITSO or an Oyster card. The time taken to read that, because we are actually upgrading the hardware <strong>and</strong> not just the software, will be negligible; there will be no noticeable diVerences. There is a diVerence, as I said earlier on, between 200 <strong>and</strong> 300 milliseconds. Q473 Clive EVord: Are you aware that one of the online ticket sales companies believes that it can provide an ITSO type smartcard that will work with the current Oyster system without requiring any new gates or readers? Mr Harris: I am not aware of that but I would be very interested to read what they have on oVer. Let me make it clear, I do not have an interest in making any of these processes either longer or more expensive than they have to be. Q474 Clive EVord: We have introduced the zones in London to make through ticketing easier to underst<strong>and</strong> between diVerent modes of transport <strong>and</strong> we have allowed huge fare increases on the basis of that from which train companies are currently benefiting, is that fair on the travelling public to
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House of Commons Transport Committe
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Contents Report Page 1 Introduction
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4 5. Smartcards offer a range of ne
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6 Integrated bus ticketing 10. Thro
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8 Long distance coach services are
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10 strategy, including those in the
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12 long-distance rail passengers ma
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14 services have not been put in pl
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16 Oyster on rail services in Londo
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18 4 Revenue protection and
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20 Staff safety 61. Transport staff
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22 66. An integrated ticketing syst
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24 Transport should commission an e
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26 concession authorities that attr
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28 operators and a
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30 List of recommendations Integrat
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32 Concessionary t
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34 Formal Minutes Clive Efford Mrs
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36 List of written evidence 1 Dr Ro
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38 List of Reports from the Committ
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Oral evidence Taken before the Tran
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14 November 2007 Mr Chris Austin, M
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Page 103 and 104: 3.2 Conclusion—Smartcard St<stron
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Transport Committee: Evidence Ev 10
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Lostwithiel to Liskeard Transport C
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Is the legal framework within which
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The Use of Smartcard Technologies I
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Executive Summary Memorand<
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Integration Nationally Transport Co
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— Ensure the confidentiality of d
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7. What appeal mechanisms exist for
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8. Are the rights of passengers <st
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Concessionary Fare
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Introduction Memorand</stro
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4. Does the ITSO System cater for t
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March 2007 1. Summary Transport Com
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9. Do operators of public transport
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Concessionary Fare
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Ferry Transport Committee: Evidence
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Confusion over what local authoriti
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Question 68 Timings of Oyster <stro
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