Ticketing and Concessionary Travel on Public Transport - United ...

Ev 56 Transport Committee: Evidence
12 December 2007 Mr Tom Harris MP <strong>and</strong> Mr Bob Linnard
by somebody else. There is always a danger that even
if you get a name <strong>and</strong> address it is not actually the
right person. I am actually quite concerned about
the safety of train staV in that situation. If somebody
is employed to collect <strong>and</strong> inspect tickets I do not
think it would be fair, certainly not on every
occasion, to expect them to start to tackle anti-social
behaviour. I met a delegation yesterday from GMB
union who are very concerned about perceived
increases in very violent <strong>and</strong> sexual crime on the
Nottingham tram. These are people who are not on
terrific wages in order to protect <strong>and</strong> collect revenue.
I do not think we should be putting people
unnecessarily in harm’s way by asking them to do
more than simply collect tickets <strong>and</strong> identify where
is safe <strong>and</strong> the people who are evading the fares. I
think it is a very diYcult issue but I think the actual
apprehension of people who are creating anti-social
behaviour has to be left to British Transport Police
rather than to staV who are trained in checking
tickets who are not trained <strong>and</strong> should not be
expected to tackle sometimes quite violent people.
Q458 Graham Stringer: Do you think that there
should be more funding for British Transport
Police?
Mr Harris: I am always in favour of more funding
for the British Transport Police but the one caveat I
have on that is that British Transport Police should
continue to be funded by the train operating
companies.
Q459 Graham Stringer: With all respect your answer
is saying that there is a problem; you are accepting
there is a problem, particularly on the south London
network, but actually there is nothing the
Government can do about what is at least a
threatening situation. Incidentally, the estimate
given by previous witnesses was £400 million lost in
fare dodging. There are two questions there, do you
not think that the public authorities should do more
to protect people, it is not just a private sector
problem? Secondly, you are the train minister, will
you be having discussions with the train operating
companies to ask them what action they are taking
to protect their shareholders <strong>and</strong> their bottom line as
it were to collect tickets which will have a
beneficial eVect?
Mr Harris: Yes, I will be raising this with the
Association of Train Operating Companies next
time I meet them. Train operating companies have a
commitment in their franchise for revenue
protection but they are also, I think, under an
obligation to make sure that the service they provide
which, after all is paid for <strong>and</strong> specified by the
Government, is a service that is of a certain minimal
quality <strong>and</strong> that is not just in terms of how punctual
they are, it is also about how safe people feel on
board a train. We are progressing very successfully
with the Secure Station Initiative; certain stations
are certified by the British Transport Police as secure
stations if there is a certain level <strong>and</strong> type of lighting,
presence of close circuit television cameras et cetera.
That has proved very successful in reassuring
people. I think that is what it is about, people should
not think that travel by train is a particularly
dangerous activity. It is not, but I do underst<strong>and</strong>
that people do feel vulnerable so it is very important
not just on trains but at stations as well. I mentioned
gating earlier on. I accept there is only anecdotal
evidence but there is evidence that gating at a station
can make people on the other side of the gates feel
quite secure because they then know that nobody
without a ticket is going to join them <strong>and</strong> a lot of the
diYculties <strong>and</strong> trouble caused at stations, especially
at night, are by people who do not have tickets <strong>and</strong>
who are just using stations to congregate at.
Q460 Chairman: Can I ask you about ITSO? Are
you quite confident that it is fit for purpose, if it
actually is evolved right the way across the United
Kingdom?
Mr Harris: Yes, is the short answer to that. I think
ITSO has many advantages. The comparison is
always made between ITSO <strong>and</strong> Oyster for obvious
reasons—I am a big fan of Oyster; I have two Oyster
cards—but I think the ITSO st<strong>and</strong>ard allows us to
do more with an ITSO card than will ever be possible
with Oyster.
Q461 Chairman: I should explain to you that we had
evidence that it is a slow system, that it is not very
businesslike, it is two years behind programme
because it has not been fully tested in-house.
TranSys have made it clear that someone really has
to take control of this programme. How eVective is
ITSO as an organisation?
Mr Harris: The DfT has committed to funding ITSO
over the next year by £750,000. A condition of that
funding is that we are going to carry out a full review
of the organisation to make sure that they have
proper resources, expertise, personnel to make sure
it is eVective.
Q462 Chairman: How likely is it that all these new
technologies such as contactless bank cards <strong>and</strong>
mobile phones are going to make ITSO obsolete?
Mr Harris: ITSO is not a smartcard, it is a st<strong>and</strong>ard.
Q463 Chairman: A st<strong>and</strong>ard that we are told has
been overtaken by all sorts of other new bits of
technology which can do the job better <strong>and</strong> faster
<strong>and</strong> perhaps more eYciently. You know yourself,
Minister, from your own oYce that when you came
in here originally you must have had one level of
computer, we are now waiting on diVerent
technology, faster, smarter, easier to use for people
like me. It is not beyond belief that this st<strong>and</strong>ard has
now been past by other people going faster <strong>and</strong>
better.
Mr Harris: The big selling point of ITSO is that it is
very flexible. For example, although it has been
rolled out as part of the concessionary scheme next
April, it is currently possible, if the commercial will
is there, to put ITSO information on your mobile
phone <strong>and</strong> use that as a smartcard. ITSO is not
simply a credit card sized card with a chip in it, it is
a st<strong>and</strong>ard which can be applied to all sorts of things
that in future will become far more normal to
consider using.