Ticketing and Concessionary Travel on Public Transport - United ...

Ev 54 Transport Committee: Evidence
12 December 2007 Mr Tom Harris MP <strong>and</strong> Mr Bob Linnard
changes we might want to make, we will base that
decision on the experience of running the scheme up
to a certain point. I do underst<strong>and</strong> the argument for
widening the scheme.
Q442 Graham Stringer: What the Commission for
Integrated Transport was saying was not widening
it, it was using the same amount of money to have a
diVerent scheme which would be wider but would
not be free.
Mr Harris: Yes, I was going to say widening some
areas perhaps <strong>and</strong> narrowing other areas. I think
that is a perfectly legitimate approach to take.
Within the current legislation there is flexibility for
individual local authorities to add increments to the
baseline national scheme.
Q443 Graham Stringer: I underst<strong>and</strong> that but what
I am trying to get at is whether there is an evidence
base or not behind the Government’s choice
between the free scheme for pensioners <strong>and</strong>, as you
described it, the more extended scheme.
Mr Harris: To be honest, Mr Stringer, that is
something I would have to write to the Committee
about, unless Mr Linnard has extra information
which I am not privy to.
Mr Linnard: We know the costs of extending the
concessions from half price to free <strong>and</strong> then from
within the local area to national. We have not tried
to do an assessment in economic terms of the
benefits of it. As the Minister has said, it is essentially
a political decision for wider reasons.
Q444 Graham Stringer: We had some witnesses
earlier on who were talking about the perverse
consequences of the current concessionary fares in
the south west in particular (this is before the scheme
goes national). The way the concessionary fare
scheme has been implemented has meant that
services have been withdrawn, dealing with larger
companies who are looking for subsidy, who will
look at the change in dem<strong>and</strong>s <strong>and</strong> change their
services. Are you aware of any evidence or have you
done any analysis of what is likely to happen,
whether there will be any perverse consequences
when the scheme is nationalised?
Mr Harris: I am not aware of examples like that, but
what I can tell you is that the actual number, the net
number of bus services that are operating outside the
major conurbations has actually increased more in
those areas than in conurbations since the 2004
scheme was actually introduced. I do not see this as
some kind of disincentive to running services at all;
I just do not accept that.
Q445 Graham Stringer: So you do not accept the
anecdotal evidence we heard earlier today.
Mr Harris: I was not present.
Q446 Graham Stringer: Will you look at that?
Mr Harris: Yes, of course I will.
Q447 Graham Stringer: Going to the nationalised
scheme, I have just done a quick count round this
table <strong>and</strong> I think there are six of us who represent
constituencies near either the Welsh or the Scottish
border. Does the Government have any plans to
come to agreements with Wales <strong>and</strong> Scotl<strong>and</strong> so that
our constituents, when they go on holiday to Wales
or Scotl<strong>and</strong>, can have the same facilities as if they go
to the south west of Engl<strong>and</strong>?
Mr Harris: The short answer is no, although I
underst<strong>and</strong> there are some local arrangements in
Cumbria <strong>and</strong> in Chester so far as cross-borders
services there are concerned. The reason I say no is
because the scheme in Scotl<strong>and</strong> for instance allows
free travel for concessionaires at all times of the day
but on weekdays the one in Engl<strong>and</strong> will only be
from half-past nine onwards. There are major
technical diYculties to be overcome if you are going
to allow that scheme to be Great Britain wide purely
<strong>and</strong> simply because the baseline schemes are not
exactly the same. That makes it very diYcult to
actually roll out the same scheme throughout
Great Britain.
Mr Linnard: There are powers within the
<strong>Concessionary</strong> <strong>Travel</strong> Act to put in place reciprocal
arrangements between Engl<strong>and</strong>, Scotl<strong>and</strong>, Wales
<strong>and</strong> Northern Irel<strong>and</strong> should that be agreed with the
devolved administrations in the future.
Q448 Graham Stringer: What you are saying is that
there are no current negotiations underway.
Mr Linnard: That is right.
Q449 Graham Stringer: Do you not think it would a
good idea to try to overcome some of these technical
diYculties with the devolved administrations?
Certainly my constituents would rather like it.
Mr Harris: I absolutely agree with you. I would love
to see a Great Britain-wide scheme. I am a Scottish
Unionist; I think people in Scotl<strong>and</strong> <strong>and</strong> Engl<strong>and</strong>
should swap locations as often as possible. If there
is technically feasible <strong>and</strong> cost eVective way of doing
that then I think the Government should be doing
that.
Q450 Mr Leech: Mr Linnard, you said that you
knew how much it was going to cost going to a
national scheme, but is it not the case that the
Government does not have a clue how much it is
going to cost; it is your best guess. In fact, the only
way of ensuring that local authorities do actually get
the money to pay for the concessionary travel in
their area is for the Government to actually pay the
costs of each concessionary journey directly to the
operators. Can the Minister explain why the
Government is so opposed to this idea of direct
payment to operators to ensure that every local
authority area gets a fair deal?
Mr Harris: I am very confident in the financial
settlement that has been agreed that local authorities
are not being short changed over the concessionary
scheme. There is, as I said before, flexibility in the
current Act to allow a change of administration,
probably initially to county level rather than district
level <strong>and</strong>, if necessary, to a national level. You asked
about reimbursement arrangements <strong>and</strong> although it
is m<strong>and</strong>ated at a national level by the UK
Parliament, this particular concessionary scheme is