Ticketing and Concessionary Travel on Public Transport - United ...

Ev 52 Transport Committee: Evidence
12 December 2007 Mr Tom Harris MP <strong>and</strong> Mr Bob Linnard
Q425 Mrs Ellman: You spoke about cashless
transport, what about the people who want to use
cash <strong>and</strong> just go <strong>and</strong> buy tickets? Is there going to be
any room for them in the future?
Mr Harris: Yes, absolutely, as there is at the moment
in London, if you do not want to use an Oyster card.
Q426 Chairman: It will cost you a hell of a lot if you
want to stick with your commitment to cash. Some
of us have this strange, old fashioned commitment to
the pound, shilling <strong>and</strong> pence as were.
Mr Harris: Indeed.
Q427 Chairman: We like the feel of it.
Mr Harris: To answer Mrs Ellman’s question, I do
not foresee a position in the future where it will not
be possible to use local transport without a
smartcard. There will be an opportunity to use cash.
Obviously in London, as you say Mrs Dunwoody,
there seems to be a premium on using cash. I do not
want to make predictions about how that situation
might be rolled out for the rest of the country <strong>and</strong> I
would not want to set any hares running or
newspaper reports that say that the Government
supports a scheme where you spend far more money
using cash than smartcards. That is what has
happened in London, but I just do not see the
situation arising where you would not be allowed to
use cash.
Q428 Mrs Ellman: What is the Government going to
do to ensure that that is the case? We have had
evidence that operators might find it cheaper not to
have cash <strong>and</strong> want to make booking facilities more
diYcult? Is the Government going to do anything to
restrain that?
Mr Harris: On trains the Government has a lot more
influence, as you know, than as far as buses are
concerned. Buses are completely deregulated
outside London.
Q429 Chairman: “Piratical” is the word you are
finding diYcult to find, Minister.
Mr Harris: That may be a word you are comfortable
using, Mrs Dunwoody; I will stick to “deregulated”.
The Government has little or very little influence on
the level of fares charged by bus companies outside
the capital. In terms of guarantees that I can oVer, I
could not, with h<strong>and</strong> on heart, tell you that we can
oVer a cast iron guarantee that that would not
happen in terms of bus operators. The Local
Transport Bill which I probably should have
mentioned in my introductory comments will allow
new structures in place where local authorities will
have to a certain degree more influence over local
bus operations <strong>and</strong> that may well include fares in a
quality contract context. As far as trains are
concerned, obviously we do not foresee any change
to the regulation of train tickets that currently exists
up to the end of the next control period in 2014;
decisions beyond that will obviously be taken in the
next few years.
Q430 Mrs Ellman: Will the Government maintain
any instructions on the availability of ticketing for
people who want to pay cash or pay on the day?
Would the Government put any regulations on that?
Mr Harris: I do not want to perjure myself in front
of the Committee by saying that we can oVer that
guarantee. At this stage, although I do not foresee a
situation where people will be forced to use a
smartcard, I am not aware of any mechanism that
the Government actually has to enforce that.
Q431 Chairman: Mr Linnard, you always get the
diYcult ones.
Mr Linnard: There is on the railway something
called the <strong>Ticketing</strong> <strong>and</strong> Settlement Agreement
which governs a number of technical issues about
the availability of tickets, including things like the
opening of ticket oYces. One of the things that the
Government would not agree to would be changes in
that that reduced the availability of the ability to pay
cash for tickets unless it was quite clear that that was
not going to disadvantage people.
Q432 Mrs Ellman: We have had evidence from local
authorities <strong>and</strong> the PTEs saying that it is diYcult to
introduce integrated ticketing <strong>and</strong> smartcards in the
deregulated environment. What diVerence do you
think the Local Transport Bill is going to make to
that?
Mr Harris: The Local Transport Bill will eliminate
some of the obstacles that local authorities <strong>and</strong> PTEs
across the country are having to navigate at the
moment if they want to move to quality contract.
This Committee will know far better than I some of
the complaints <strong>and</strong> problems that local authorities
have had trying to move towards quality contracts.
The Local Transport Bill grew out of an awareness
in Government that that situation should not go on.
Obviously we have never said <strong>and</strong> we do not intend
to go back to the situation pre-1986; I do not think
anyone wants us to go back to that particular era.
However, I do hope, not just in quality contracts,
that the fact that local authorities <strong>and</strong> PTEs will be
able to get a quality contract more easily than at the
moment will serve as an incentive to some bus
operating companies to cooperate more fully with
local authorities. Even before the Local Transport
Bill comes into eVect <strong>and</strong> becomes an act there is
quite a lot of movement among the bus operating
companies in terms of cooperating with local
authorities, with Passenger Transport Executives to
produce more integrated ticketing. Obviously that
has to be done in cooperation with the Competition
Commission because it is illegal for bus companies
to talk to each other <strong>and</strong> set fares together; that is
why we have the block exemption from the
Competition Commission, but where that happens
there is actually quite a lot of cooperation between
bus companies <strong>and</strong> between those bus companies
<strong>and</strong> Passenger Transport Executives. However, you
are right, things will improve I hope with the Local
Transport Bill.
Q433 Mrs Ellman: How much do you expect them to
improve?