Ticketing and Concessionary Travel on Public Transport - United ...

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Ev 42 Transport Committee: Evidence Wednesday 12 December 2007 Members present Mrs Gwyneth Dunwoody, in the Chair Mr David Clell<strong>and</strong> Mr John Leech Clive EVord Mr Eric Martlew Mrs Louise Ellman Mr Lee Scott Mr Philip Hollobone Graham Stringer Witnesses: Mr Stephen Joseph, Executive Director, Campaign for Better Transport, Mr Anthony Smith, Chief Executive, Passenger Focus, Mr Rufus Barnes, Chief Executive, London <strong>Travel</strong>Watch <strong>and</strong> Mr Gordon Edwards, Company Secretary, <strong>Travel</strong>Watch SouthWest, gave evidence. Chairman: Good afternoon to you, the Committee is now in session. Members with an interest to declare, Mr Clell<strong>and</strong>? Mr Clell<strong>and</strong>: Member of United. Clive EVord: Member of Unite. Graham Stringer: Member of Unite. Chairman: ASLEF. Mrs Ellman: Member of Unite. Q366 Chairman: Thank you very much. Gentlemen, you are most warmly welcome. I am sure several of you already know the House rules, if you agree with one another please do not repeat what somebody else has said. If you want to catch the Chairman’s eye it should not be too diYcult because the clerk will dig me in the ribs. If there is anything else you want to say we will ask you whether you want to say it. Would you like to identify yourselves for the record, please? Mr Edwards: Gordon Edwards, Company Secretary, <strong>Travel</strong>Watch SouthWest. Mr Barnes: Rufus Barnes, Chief Executive, London <strong>Travel</strong>Watch. Mr Smith: Anthony Smith, Chief Executive, Customer Focus. Mr Joseph: Stephen Joseph, Executive Director, Campaign for Better Transport. Q367 Chairman: Do any of you have anything you want to say briefly? Mr Barnes: I would just like to say that the paper was written nine months ago <strong>and</strong> certain things have moved forward since then. I think it is important to make sure that your members are aware of the changes that we wish you to take into account. We made reference towards the beginning of our report to ticket queues on the underground. We believe London Underground has made progress but things have got worse recently at King’s Cross St Pancras following the transfer of the Eurostar service <strong>and</strong> the opening of the First Capital Connect station there. We have noticed, rather worryingly, that there are queues for the ticket oYce <strong>and</strong> the ticket machines that are actually causing movement problems within the station. Secondly, we believe that there has been some very useful progress in relation to mobile phones <strong>and</strong> telephones. We referred to this in our report but we believe that Transport for London has recently announced that they will be experimenting with the use of mobile phones <strong>and</strong> Oyster acceptance. That, we believe, is good <strong>and</strong> welcome news. Q368 Chairman: Mr Barnes, I am going to stop you there. Do you think possibly as the questions come up you can answer the particular points <strong>and</strong> point out to us if there is a gap between what you said originally <strong>and</strong> what is happening now <strong>and</strong> why. If there is a diYculty <strong>and</strong> at the end of the time you feel we have missed something by all means raise it. Mr Smith? Mr Smith: I think the Committee’s investigation is extremely timely as the number of passengers going through Britain’s railway network increases day by day <strong>and</strong> in recent research we have done—which unfortunately was done prior to our report being submitted—reducing ticket queue time, something as simple as that, actually came out as the sixth priority among Britain’s rail passengers on a national survey. Subsequently we have also done some research on the passengers’ attitudes to the future of ticketing <strong>and</strong> future ticketing technology which I will refer to in the course of questions. Q369 Chairman: Mr Edwards? Mr Edwards: Our evidence was obviously submitted nine months ago <strong>and</strong> most of it remains relevant today. However, there has been one change, <strong>and</strong> we welcome the Government’s decision to pay the additional £212 million towards the cost of free concessionary travel from the first of April next year by specific grant using option four. Q370 Chairman: Thank you. Mr Joseph? Mr Joseph: I wanted to say that we would like to take this opportunity, if the Committee wishes, to update the Committee on something that it expressed interest in in its report on the draft Local Transport Bill in relation to the Competition Act <strong>and</strong> ticketing <strong>and</strong> bus services. If the Committee wants to explore that I am happy to update them on where we have got to on that. Q371 Chairman: That would be helpful. Let us see how we go <strong>and</strong> if you think we have missed bits out it is not above you to attract the Chairman’s attention. Do you all think that the Government has got a strategy on integrated ticketing?
Transport Committee: Evidence Ev 43 12 December 2007 Mr Stephen Joseph, Mr Anthony Smith, Mr Rufus Barnes <strong>and</strong> Mr Gordon Edwards Mr Smith: In terms of the national railways the integrated ticketing works quite well inside the railway network; it works less well when you try to use rail <strong>and</strong> bus or a combination of some other form of public transport. There are schemes which are now being promoted, the PlusBus scheme whereby you can buy a bus ticket relatively easily on top of your rail ticket but we simply do not think that the promotion is high profile enough at present. Q372 Chairman: What about smartcards? Mr Barnes: I think the smartcard is good in principle <strong>and</strong> we are delighted that the Government has pressed national rail to accept Oyster in the London area. We are worried about the implementation arrangements for that. Q373 Chairman: In what sense? Mr Barnes: We are very aware that the Government’s concern is that the ITSO product should not be undermined by Oyster. We are pleased that the Government has said that Oyster has to be accepted on all national rail stations in its pay as you go concept but we are aware that there are going to be diVerences across London that are going to be really problematic <strong>and</strong> confusing for passengers. Q374 Chairman: You have presumably drawn that to the attention of the Government; what response have you received? Mr Barnes: The Government appears to be saying that if some companies oVer one thing <strong>and</strong> another company oVers another thing, then that is the commercial world. Q375 Chairman: That is what I am asking you: is there a strategy behind this. Mr Joseph? Mr Joseph: In answer to that precise question we have not identified a strategy. In particular what we have not identified is a strategy which would fit with the current transport secretary’s express wish to focus on door to door transport. There is, as my colleague to my right said, a strategy for integration within the railway; there is no strategy for integration between rail <strong>and</strong> bus or between creating a smartcard that will allow door to door transport such as you find in many other European countries. Q376 Chairman: Is that your view, Mr Edwards? Mr Edwards: Yes, there is no strategy whatsoever <strong>and</strong> we have made representations to the Department for Transport when they have been letting new rail franchises, that we wanted to see some commitments in there around integrated, multi-model ticketing. Nothing has happened whatsoever. Q377 Mrs Ellman: Are smartcards important or do you think improvements could be made by existing payment systems? Mr Smith: The research we have done with passengers shows that the smartcard is instantly recognisable, people can see the benefits, they want it, they would like it to be more available especially in the London area with the pay as you go concept on the national rail network. The diYculty with smartcards on the national railway network is that where you get longer distance journeys, where the price is high <strong>and</strong> variable, there is a great reluctance to store large amounts of money onto a smartcard. It works very well for urban areas <strong>and</strong>, as my colleagues have said, it would be great if those urban areas <strong>and</strong> smartcards could talk to each other so you could use them in Manchester, London or SheYeld, but for longer distance journeys it is much harder to see quite what the benefit is. Q378 Mrs Ellman: What about outside the London area? Mr Smith: There are plenty of examples outside of London—the <strong>Travel</strong>master card in South Yorkshire, the Trio in Merseyside, System One in Manchester—where smartcards work. People like them; they are underst<strong>and</strong>able. As long as you have a clear pricing structure, a zonal fair structure, <strong>and</strong> people know what they are going to pay. Q379 Mrs Ellman: Do you think that enough attention is given to the views of travellers outside London <strong>and</strong> there is not too much focus on travelling within London? Mr Smith: I think the existence of these other smartcards indicates that it is a popular product in all types of area <strong>and</strong> could be extended outside urban areas. The fact is that the Oyster card is a very prolific product in London; people have seen it <strong>and</strong> a lot of people use it. In many ways it is leading perceptions. Mr Barnes: I think the issue about London is that Oyster works <strong>and</strong> Oyster has been seen to work <strong>and</strong> Oyster has been popular with users. It is first generation. It is obviously the case that people need to be able to have a product that is useable elsewhere <strong>and</strong> I underst<strong>and</strong> your question, but we do not want to lose the benefit we have seen of Oyster in London because people want to have the ITSO product that has a national benefit. Mr Edwards: To go back to your original question, there needs to be more done now, yes. In the south west of Engl<strong>and</strong> there are 102 destinations without railway stations where you can buy a through ticket to. You can only book on the internet to 20 of those 102. For the other 82 you actually have to go to the station <strong>and</strong> buy it. You cannot buy the add-on fare with any advantage purchase ticket. Why cannot the railway industry, with the technology that is available today, just deliver that? Q380 Mrs Ellman: Mr Smith, can I ask you from Passenger Focus, do you think enough work is done on looking at the needs of people who want simply to be able to go to a station <strong>and</strong> buy a ticket on the day? Is there not a drive to everything being through Smartcards <strong>and</strong> other technologies to the exclusion of passengers—I do not know how many—who want to be able to buy tickets <strong>and</strong> travel? Mr Smith: I think it is a fact that the move on the railways is very much towards pre-purchase for all types of travel whether it is through Smartcard or through booking ahead. As we have seen in the
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House of Commons Transport Committe
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Contents Report Page 1 Introduction
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18 4 Revenue protection and
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20 Staff safety 61. Transport staff
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28 operators and a
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