Ticketing and Concessionary Travel on Public Transport - United ...

which comes out of the usage of the Oyster card. One
of the things to keep in mind about relying upon the
Oyster card data is that it is not m<strong>and</strong>atory to tap in
<strong>and</strong> out on National Rail <strong>and</strong> that is part of the cost
that comes through of the users of the Freedom Pass.
So there is a number of ways in which we cannot rely
entirely upon the Oyster data for travelcards,
Freedom Passes, or concessionary passes.
Q298 Clive EVord: I am still not clear. How in the
future are you going to calculate how you are going
to recharge local authorities for use of the Freedom
Pass in the future?
Mr Verma: In the near future that will remain
something which we do with surveys until we start
getting the bits of data directly counted through
the system.
Q299 Clive EVord: So are local authorities which are
likely to attract a high level of tourists who could be
using the Freedom Pass right to be concerned?
Mr Verma: Well, they are right to be concerned in
that they need to make sure that they have enough
funding from central government to pay for that.
Q300 Mr Hollobone: When is Oyster going to be
extended to the overground lines from south <strong>and</strong>
south-east London?
Mr Verma: We extended the Oyster to London
Overground on 11 November. We are extending it to
three train operating companies, Chiltern, c2c <strong>and</strong>
the West Anglian services on the One railway in
January 2008. The remainder will come in at some
point in 2009.
Q301 Mr Hollobone: What has been the problem
with getting those rail companies to be part of the
scheme?
Mr Verma: This has been under discussion since
before Oyster was launched <strong>and</strong> at successive stages
the Mayor has had to sweeten his oVer to the train
operating companies to come on board. Last year
the Mayor <strong>and</strong> the Secretary of State agreed a deal
where the Mayor will pay for all the equipment
which needs to be installed when the train operating
companies start accepting Oyster, <strong>and</strong> likewise the
Secretary of State will pay for the acceptance of all
the equipment which is required for the acceptance
of ITSO on Transport for London services. We have
now spent, since May of last year, eighteen months
in commercial negotiations with the TOCs to make
sure that they can agree to the scheme, they can agree
to the revenue apportionment coming out of the
scheme, <strong>and</strong> I am pleased to say we are near the end
but we are not quite at the end yet. There is a lot of
technical discussion also going on in parallel, but
there is a very intense phase of installing new
equipment. It is worth just reminding everyone here
that there are 275 stations on the London
Underground network, which is what we launched
Oyster on four years ago. We have 250 stations on
the national rail network as well, so this is a
challenge of a similar proportion in extending
Oyster over National Rail.
5 December 2007 Mr Shashi Verma <strong>and</strong> Mr Steve Burton
Transport Committee: Evidence Ev 35
Q302 Mr Hollobone: Coming back to enforcement,
presumably Transport for London is responsible
now for enforcement on London Overground. Are
there disparities in the rules <strong>and</strong> regulations between
bus passengers, Tube passengers <strong>and</strong> Overground
rail passengers with regard to enforcing conditions
of travel?
Mr Burton: Yes, there are. They are subject to
diVerent by-laws <strong>and</strong> diVerent regulations <strong>and</strong> that
is one of the issues which going forward we would
look at to rationalise, because our view is that it is
confusing for passengers to have diVerent rules <strong>and</strong>
regulations applying to diVerent parts of the
network where you are using the same ticketing
product.
Q303 Mr Hollobone: Are those the rules <strong>and</strong>
regulations you were talking about being covered by
this Transport for London Bill which is going
forward?
Mr Burton: Partially, but not entirely. Without
going into too much arcane legislation, there is a
number of rules <strong>and</strong> regulations which apply to
diVerent modes of transport. So there is a national
set of regulations for public service vehicles, which
are buses <strong>and</strong> coaches. There are rail regulations,
there are London Underground regulations, the
trams in London have their own regulations, so
there is a number of diVerent pieces of guidance <strong>and</strong>
regulation that we need to look at to rationalise that.
So it is quite a complex job to do. It is one of the
things we are very keen to look at, particularly for
TfL’s own network because, as I say, I think it is very
confusing for passengers if you have diVerential
activities around revenue <strong>and</strong> enforcement.
Q304 Mr Hollobone: Is it for the Mayor to sort that
out, or is it for Her Majesty’s Government to sort
that out?
Mr Burton: I think it is for the Mayor <strong>and</strong> TfL to put
together a coherent package of things that need to
happen to regulate it in an even way, <strong>and</strong> then there
is a number of agencies within the Government,
including the DfT, <strong>and</strong> other agencies in the
Government to enact the changes that will make
that happen.
Q305 Chairman: Do you think the contactless bank
cards <strong>and</strong> mobile phones are going to make ITSO
obsolete?
Mr Verma: I would not go so far as to say they will
make ITSO obsolete. Again, I think we are
considering the use of contactless bank cards <strong>and</strong>
mobile phones for a very specific reason, which is
that our system, what we call a ticket, is just a means
of payment. What we are trying to do is collect a
payment when people travel through our system.
They do not get a reserved seat, they do not get any
of the other attributes that you would normally
associate with a ticket. So what is important to us is
to be able to collect the required payment from the
customer in a fast <strong>and</strong> eYcient way every single time
they travel, but at the same time to make that process
of collecting that revenue as unintrusive as possible.
Despite all the advances we have made with Oyster