Ticketing and Concessionary Travel on Public Transport - United ...

Transport Committee: Evidence Ev 13
14 November 2007 Mrs Elaine Holt, Mr Martin Dean, Mr Les Warneford <strong>and</strong> Mr Ian Dobbs
Mr Warneford: Where we can easily access the
station, we can probably overcome the parking
problem because we can get space for a bus stop or
two.
Mr Dobbs: It is down to us. We have to get those
issues sorted out. They are not rocket science issues.
Sometimes we have not been good at doing those
things in the past. TraYc management at the fronts
of stations is one of those things. We get a lot of
illegal parking around the fronts of stations as well
<strong>and</strong> we sometimes do not do a lot about it. We need
to work with local authorities as well. It is fair to say
that there are many places around the country where
local authorities have been very generous in the help
they have given us in solving some of those traYc
management problems. Some counties, some cities,
are more generous than others of course, but it is up
to us to go <strong>and</strong> seek funds <strong>and</strong> sort things out <strong>and</strong>
make sure that I can get the buses in the front,
whether they belong to Stagecoach or First Group.
We do not discriminate in that sense because we
know it is good for both our companies.
Chairman: We would all like buses <strong>and</strong> trains to have
some kind of coordination <strong>and</strong> we would like you to
think of trying to get your passengers to the railway
stations. That would be very revolutionary.
Q104 Mr Martlew: Mr Dean, do you see major
problems when the national concessionary fare
scheme starts?
Mr Dean: When the national scheme starts, I think
a lot of the issues are already out in the open from
when the scheme became a free scheme in 2006/7.
The biggest issue with the national scheme is going
to be whether there might be some tourist hotspots
which might become overwhelmed with older people
using their ability to use their pass. For example, a
London pensioner could go to Weymouth <strong>and</strong> use
his pass on a bus service in Weymouth <strong>and</strong>, if they all
decide to do that at the same time, then clearly there
could be some capacity issues. That is something we
will have to monitor very carefully.
Q105 Chairman: Is Weymouth Council aware of this
impending invasion of London pensioners?
Mr Dean: I am sure they would welcome it.
Q106 Clive EVord: Extending concessionary fares to
rail needs some careful thought. Have you any
thoughts on how we can extend the concessionary
fare scheme to include some rail journeys without
incurring high costs or overloading already busy
trains?
Mr Dobbs: It is diYcult for me to add much to what
has already been said. As railway companies, we
want to encourage passenger growth. Of course we
do. We do need to have robust financial
arrangements in place to make sure that it does not
in any way work against us of course. Those are the
kinds of arrangements that government decides as
policy, as to whether it is prepared to support that
kind of travel. Capacity is an issue, as has already
been mentioned. It is a critical issue in some areas. It
is less critical in others. Applying national st<strong>and</strong>ards
to the system in this regard is very diYcult. There is
clearly more capacity available oVpeak than there is
in peak, but I think as has already been alluded to on
the buses, the diYculty is once you start to apply
diVerent rules in diVerent places it becomes very
complicated.
Q107 Clive EVord: That is the second time that has
been referred to. I take it what you would be
advocating is a single st<strong>and</strong>ard for concessionary
fares so that it can operate nationally.
Mr Dobbs: I am not advocating that. I am just
pointing out that I think there are many
complications, both practical <strong>and</strong> financial. If
government wishes to move ahead with it as policy,
I think fine. We will address that <strong>and</strong> we will see if
we can work something out. At the moment I do not
believe that it is being put forward as a suggestion by
government.
Q108 Clive EVord: When you say that there are
problems, practical <strong>and</strong> financial, do you mean in
administering it because it can be complex if it
applies in diVerent ways in diVerent paths that
people use?
Mr Dobbs: It is more about the volumes of people.
Mrs Holt: I do not think the rail industry has
thought enough about it <strong>and</strong> that is what we need
to do.
Q109 Clive EVord: Is there any experience of these
schemes in Scotl<strong>and</strong> <strong>and</strong> Wales that you could bring
to light that may assist people in trying to organise
for extending concessionary fares to rail?
Mrs Holt: There is going to be some learning from
the Scottish scheme which is just getting up <strong>and</strong>
running. Once that has been up <strong>and</strong> running, there
will be lessons we can learn from that. That is a
significant network <strong>and</strong> there are very diVerent
services across the patch, so I think there will be
some learning points from that.
Q110 Clive EVord: Given that there could be
diVerent schemes operating in diVerent areas,
diVerent cards coming from diVerent areas, do you
see the problems that we have seen in terms of the
disputes between operators <strong>and</strong> concessionary travel
authorities getting worse, continuing or being
resolved by the use of a national scheme?
Mr Warneford: They are not getting any better.
They are a big problem.
Q111 Clive EVord: Would you like to elaborate on
that?
Mr Warneford: Yes. In Scotl<strong>and</strong> <strong>and</strong> Wales we have
a uniform payment scheme funded through the
Scottish Executive <strong>and</strong> the Welsh Assembly. The
operators know where they st<strong>and</strong>. The authorities
know where they st<strong>and</strong> <strong>and</strong> there are no disputes. I
think the result in both countries has been passenger
growth <strong>and</strong> investment. In Engl<strong>and</strong>, the government
or the DfT—I know not which—chose to distribute
the payments to the operators through all the district
<strong>and</strong> unitary councils without any st<strong>and</strong>ard payment
mechanism for the operators. Some local authorities
were not given enough. Some were given the right