Ticketing and Concessionary Travel on Public Transport - United ...

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Ev 10 Transport Committee: Evidence 14 November 2007 Mrs Elaine Holt, Mr Martin Dean, Mr Les Warneford <strong>and</strong> Mr Ian Dobbs Mr Warneford: As far as I know, Chairman, where we know that there is some dem<strong>and</strong> we are very happy to provide that. Q77 Chairman: Where you know—? Mr Warneford: —There is a dem<strong>and</strong> for it then we are happy to provide through ticketing. I am not conscious that there is a huge gap there. Q78 Chairman: You are not conscious, so we are not looking for customers, we are going wait for them to come to us, are we? Mr Warneford: No, we have already promoted schemes, we have joint ticketing. Q79 Chairman: Mr Dean, are you happy with everything you are doing? Mr Dean: Yes, Chairman, if you look at a lot of locations throughout the United Kingdom where we operate in an area <strong>and</strong> another operator runs in that area as well, then there are examples of joint ticketing schemes <strong>and</strong> we have implemented quite a few, as Mr Warneford said, where there is the dem<strong>and</strong> to do that. Mrs Holt: I think when you are looking at customer requirements <strong>and</strong> particularly the environment focus going forward, there is an increasing dem<strong>and</strong> for integrated transport, whether it be cycling or bus integration, <strong>and</strong> I think as train operators we are doing quite a lot of work in this area to see how we can better respond to customer needs. I think customer focus is changing particularly around the environment <strong>and</strong> access to rail stations is becoming more important to them, so I think that there is more that we can do, <strong>and</strong> certainly First Group rail operators are working very closely with the local bus companies <strong>and</strong> indeed cycle groups <strong>and</strong> other bodies to make sure that we do respond to customer dem<strong>and</strong>. Q80 Chairman: Can you give me oV-the-cuV—<strong>and</strong> I am not going to hold you to it—two or three things you think your company does. Mrs Holt: If we take First Capital Connect we are doing a lot with cycling. It is a particular issue for us because we serve Cambridge <strong>and</strong> Brighton <strong>and</strong> places like that, so we have invested quite a lot in cycle facilities, parking, security, <strong>and</strong> that kind of thing to promote diVerent travel to stations because car parking is an issue at stations. Q81 Chairman: I underst<strong>and</strong> that but before we get on to that, how do I get my bicycle on a train in Cambridge or to Cambridge? Do I have to book specifically by going to the station; can I use the Internet; how do I get my cycle on? Mrs Holt: If you are travelling from Cambridge you can leave your bike at the station. There are plenty of facilities there. Peak trains are very, very crowded so we do not allow bikes on the train in the peak but oV peak you can travel with your bike. You are not required on our services to book in advance, but the point was made earlier about booking with bicycles not being available on the Internet, <strong>and</strong> that is something we should all look at. Q82 Mrs Ellman: What is the industry doing to make sure that passengers get accurate information on the best deals at all times? Mr Dobbs: I did not quite catch the question. Q83 Mrs Ellman: What are you all doing to improve the situation for passengers to make sure they get the cheapest prices <strong>and</strong> best deals at all times? Mr Dobbs: I think the previous witnesses actually summarised very well some of the general schemes that are going on <strong>and</strong> the actual scale of the problem as well. One of the areas where I think we are making some major strides is in making better the customerfriendly nature of the ticket vending machines that we have got. That is one area where I think the first generation were not particularly friendly in that regard. Q84 Chairman: Vending machines? Mr Dobbs: Yes, the ticket vending machines, <strong>and</strong> really with experience <strong>and</strong> feedback from our customers we are now looking at ways with software where we can make those far more interactive <strong>and</strong> simpler to use as well. We are actually seeing quite a distinct movement to ticket vending machines. They are becoming increasingly popular <strong>and</strong> I think that is something we see in other industries as well. In some of our stations for instance we are getting up to 70% of ticket sales through the ticket vending machines. Waterloo is nearly 50% now, which is quite remarkable. Q85 Mrs Ellman: Does anyone else have anything to add to that? Mr Warneford: I think the question, Chairman, probably does not much apply to the buses where we have got very simple fare structures <strong>and</strong> scales that are posted on the vehicle. I am not conscious that there is a problem of awareness or information about them. Mr Dobbs: Could I possibly comment on your earlier question about the appropriateness of the Government’s approach on integrated ticketing. I think one of the things that we would very much applaud is the leadership the Government has taken with regard to defining ITSO as the common platform across all operators. It is an area where it is very diYcult to develop smartcard technology but it is certainly one that has enormous potential. I know between the rail <strong>and</strong> the bus divisions in our company we are looking very much at smartcards as the future. We have had PlusBus <strong>and</strong> other schemes in the past but I think we have been scratching the surface. We have to produce a product that customers, the people out there in the street, are very comfortable with, something that is very easy to use. I think a common smartcard platform is the way to go. Q86 Mrs Ellman: Is the PlusBus scheme undermined by frequent changes to bus timetables? Mr Dobbs: My personal experience is that is not necessarily the case. I think first of all although it is promoted it is not widely known about. That is number one. I think secondly in a lot of the stations
Transport Committee: Evidence Ev 11 14 November 2007 Mrs Elaine Holt, Mr Martin Dean, Mr Les Warneford <strong>and</strong> Mr Ian Dobbs we serve, certainly in the south east of Engl<strong>and</strong>, that the preferred mode of travel to the station is the car anyway. People have already got a car at home <strong>and</strong> what we have been trying to do is encourage them to leave it at the station <strong>and</strong> go forward from there, so we have been increasing car parking spaces. Maybe bus has been a little bit further down the priority in the Home Counties, but I think it is an area we have to look at in the future, <strong>and</strong> again we have to make it visible. Q87 Mrs Ellman: Are there any plans to improve the PlusBus scheme? Mrs Holt: Yes there are. More stations are being added all the time <strong>and</strong> I think there is a lot of work going on to make sure that bus timetables <strong>and</strong> train timetables are linked. Q88 Chairman: There is an original idea! Mrs Holt: Yes, startling, is it not! So I think we are seeing that. We have been running the franchise for 18 months <strong>and</strong> we have seen a 58% growth year-onyear on PlusBus sales because we are working a lot more closely with other bus companies, so I think where there is a will there is a way, <strong>and</strong> I think it is important that train companies do build relationships. It does work when it is there <strong>and</strong> advertised in the station. I think advertising <strong>and</strong> better liaison on timetables is something that is taking place <strong>and</strong> something that will improve. Q89 Mrs Ellman: Is fare dodging a problem? Mrs Holt: The previous witnesses talked a lot about the level of ticketless travel. I think we should remember that 95% of our customers do pay for their tickets. In First Capital Connect’s case it is about 5% of people that are fraudulent so, yes, it is a problem <strong>and</strong> we are making big investments into gate lines, additional staV, <strong>and</strong> a variety of other measures. The majority of people are honest <strong>and</strong> they pay their fare <strong>and</strong> it is the small percentage that we have to deal with. Q90 Mrs Ellman: Do you need any new powers to make fare dodging more diYcult? Mrs Holt: No, we do not believe we do on the rail side. Mr Dean: On the bus side outside London there is not the ability to levy a penalty fare. I think that is something that we would welcome the enabling power to do. Mr Dobbs: I think from our side I would agree with Mrs Holt that the issue is being far more professionally managed now than it was a few years ago. I think there has been a major tightening up on revenue protection. It is still a problem, of course it is a problem, <strong>and</strong> while there are people there not paying <strong>and</strong> can be seen by others not to pay, it is a major problem. It is, in the context of the overall picture, a very small minority of people <strong>and</strong> the actual number of people within that 5% that was quoted there, whatever the number is, the hard core of people who are deliberately dodging is very, very small. Q91 Mr Scott: The industry has been reluctant to make major investment in smartcards. Is the government putting the long term structure <strong>and</strong> incentives in place to make the business case more attractive? Mr Dean: The principle of ITSO is a good one because obviously if you create a common platform what it does mean is that you have the same st<strong>and</strong>ards <strong>and</strong> you can buy products en masse which has to be a good thing. Mr Dobbs: Within the rail industry, the government—I think as has already been mentioned—is going through a process of specifying smartcard technology to be implemented on all new rail franchises to either a large or to a small extent, depending on which franchises they are. We were certainly with South West Trains the first company to go through the process where we had to introduce a smartcard scheme across the entire train operating company. That is a huge challenge but I think it is moving in the right direction. We think there is a positive business case for it in our part of the home counties, probably because of the sheer volumes of people involved <strong>and</strong> it will allow us far more flexible ticketing in the future as well, particularly with the commuting market. In other parts of the country the business case is far weaker. Clearly in rural areas, where the volumes of people are much lower <strong>and</strong> the numbers of footfalls through each of the stations are very light in some cases, the business case is very, very diYcult to prove. Q92 Mr Scott: Oyster is to be extended to all rail stations in London by 2008. Do you think that is sensible, investing further in Oyster when it is not going to be compatible with ITSO? What is your view on this? Mr Dobbs: We are very happy to embrace Oyster technology on mainl<strong>and</strong> rail as long as we obviously get the commercial arrangements around it robust. I think it is sensible because extending Oyster across the mainl<strong>and</strong> rail system gives the consumer more choice. Q93 Chairman: I think we have to be clear about this because what Mr Scott was asking is, since there is a gap between the two systems, are you assuming that you will be able to move or are you saying no, you drop the ITSO st<strong>and</strong>ards <strong>and</strong> you go for the Oyster st<strong>and</strong>ards? I think there is a specific gap <strong>and</strong> a specific disagreement, is there not? Mr Dobbs: No, I do not believe there is a gap. We are cooperating with Transport for London to put Oyster pay as you go onto all of our stations. We have had some very fruitful discussions with them which we hope will lead to a resolution of that in the next few weeks. In the meantime, we are both within London <strong>and</strong> outside of London implementing the ITSO smartcard as well so we are putting two systems in. I do not believe that is a problem. Q94 Chairman: Why? Mr Dobbs: As has already been mentioned, they are going to be interoperable. As far as the customer is concerned, they will be able to use ITSO smartcard
Page 1 and 2: House of Commons Transport Committe
Page 3 and 4: Contents Report Page 1 Introduction
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Page 17 and 18: 16 Oyster on rail services in Londo
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Page 21 and 22: 20 Staff safety 61. Transport staff
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Page 27 and 28: 26 concession authorities that attr
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Page 31 and 32: 30 List of recommendations Integrat
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Page 35 and 36: 34 Formal Minutes Clive Efford Mrs
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Page 41 and 42: Oral evidence Taken before the Tran
Page 43 and 44: 14 November 2007 Mr Chris Austin, M
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3.2 Conclusion—Smartcard St<stron
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