Ticketing and Concessionary Travel on Public Transport - United ...

Ev 8 Transport Committee: Evidence
14 November 2007 Mr Chris Austin, Mr David Mapp <strong>and</strong> Mr Richard Malins
retired market, the young persons’ market <strong>and</strong> the
family market, <strong>and</strong> those railcards have been
remarkably successful, <strong>and</strong> they continue to be
remarkably successful to the extent that there are
now 2.2 million people in the country who have
railcards that can take advantage of the discounts
which they oVer.
Q59 Mrs Ellman: Would you be opposed to a
proposal to extend the concessionary bus schemes
to rail?
Mr Mapp: It is a matter for government. It is really
a matter of public policy. If the Government believes
that that is a policy objective which they wish to
pursue then, as Mr Austin has made clear, providing
the necessary financial arrangements are put in place
then of course in principle we would not oppose that,
but there are practical issues in terms of
overcrowding that would need to be addressed <strong>and</strong>
I think the implications of those issues should not be
under-estimated.
Q60 Mr Hollobone: A number of your members
allow police oYcers oV duty to travel free of charge
on rail services on the underst<strong>and</strong>ing that if there is
trouble on the train they can assist the ticket
inspector or the other rail staV to deal with that. To
what extent do your members oVer that service?
Mr Mapp: Are you referring to the agreement that
we have with the Metropolitan <strong>and</strong> City of London
Police Forces in the London area?
Mr Hollobone: I represent a constituency in
Northamptonshire <strong>and</strong> I underst<strong>and</strong> that the rail
operator there allows oV-duty police oYcers to
travel free of charge.
Q61 Chairman: I think Mr Hollobone is referring to
a custom <strong>and</strong> practice which has always been in most
transport systems. Nobody specifies it but I think it
is accepted, it is one of those nod-<strong>and</strong>-a-wink jobs.
Mr Mapp: Right, okay. Well, in the schemes that I
am aware of there is certainly an agreement with
police forces in Greater London <strong>and</strong> there are also
some schemes around the country that I am aware of
where police oYcers receive free travel. In the case of
London there is a financial arrangement in place. In
other areas it is on the basis that the police oYcers
provide support <strong>and</strong> assistance.
Chairman: We are getting a bit tight for time now so
Mr Simpson.
Q62 David Simpson: I think, Mr Austin, you
mentioned earlier on that customers had the right of
appeal <strong>and</strong> I underst<strong>and</strong> also that train operators
appoint their own appeals panels. How can
customers be sure that they are getting a fair deal?
Mr Austin: There are two companies that oVer an
appeals service, one of which is owned by one of our
members <strong>and</strong> the other of which is independent.
Independence is guaranteed by the fact that they do
not exercise a personal discretion in that they are
administering a code of practice set by the
Department for Transport, which audit them, so
that is the guarantee of independence. The other is
perhaps the financial point, that the funding is on the
basis that it is paid for by the train operators who
participate in the scheme but on the basis of a flat
payment for each appeal, regardless of whether it is
accepted or not, so there is no financial incentive one
way or the other; it is a straight payment.
Q63 Chairman: Can I ask you very briefly now,
gentlemen, is it true that revenue protection staV
have got too much power <strong>and</strong> occasionally are a bit
heavy-h<strong>and</strong>ed?
Mr Austin: I do not think they have too much power.
I think they have the powers they need to implement
their responsibilities <strong>and</strong> duties. In the event of any
of them being, or appearing to be, heavy-h<strong>and</strong>ed
there is an appeals procedure.
Q64 Chairman: This appeals procedure Mr Simpson
mentioned, you are quite convinced it is suYciently
transparent <strong>and</strong> people will be quite reassured
because they will know that it is separate from the
people who have appointed those to run the system?
Mr Austin: I think so, Chairman, <strong>and</strong> they are set up
to be independent.
Q65 Chairman: Yes I underst<strong>and</strong> that but does the
passenger underst<strong>and</strong> that they are totally separate?
Mr Austin: They are audited by the Department for
Transport <strong>and</strong> Passenger Focus is also involved, <strong>and</strong>
I think if there were any concerns over the way the
code was being applied there is a right of appeal to
Passenger Focus as well.
Q66 Chairman: So you think the passenger can be
assured that this is a satisfactory appeals procedure?
Mr Austin: Yes I do.
Q67 Chairman: You have not talked about PlusBus
in relation to buses.
Mr Mapp: PlusBus is a scheme that eight 1 train
operating companies have supported since its
inception. It is a scheme that has been developed
entirely by private sector bus <strong>and</strong> train operators
without any central government funding. Over the
course of the past three or four years it has grown to
the extent that there are now 227 PlusBus schemes
across the country with more planned, including
Crewe to be added during the course of 2008. Whilst
initially numbers were small they have grown
significantly, over the last year in particular, in
response to the first national promotional campaign
for PlusBus, <strong>and</strong> this year we are expecting there to
be over 100,000 issues of PlusBus tickets. I think it
demonstrates the ability of the private sector to work
co-operatively together. There is, we believe, further
potential <strong>and</strong> further opportunity in PlusBus <strong>and</strong> the
PlusBus product lends itself very well to delivery
through smartcards.
Q68 Chairman: You have spoken quite a lot about
Internet sales <strong>and</strong> how the trend is upwards, but it is
not possible if you have a cycle, to book the right of
passage, is it, on the Internet? PlusBus is not
available on the Internet, cycle carriage bookings are
1 Note by witness: Remove the word “eight”