Ticketing and Concessionary Travel on Public Transport - United ...

Ev 6 Transport Committee: Evidence
14 November 2007 Mr Chris Austin, Mr David Mapp <strong>and</strong> Mr Richard Malins
used are those designed for the Underground. I
think they are eVective where you have got high
volumes of short-distance business where it is
diYcult to check by other means <strong>and</strong> also when
people are not encumbered by bags <strong>and</strong> are familiar
with the system. What alarms me—<strong>and</strong> I would like
the Committee to think about this—the spreading of
this to inter-city business where I think it is a)
unnecessary <strong>and</strong> b) wholly inappropriate in terms of
customer service. I do not think it is necessary
because once people are on your system for longer,
the on-train check is far the most eVective, <strong>and</strong> that
is what people should concentrate on. Ticket gates
where you have got a serious short-distance
problem, yes, but on long-distance business the train
is much the best place to do it.
Q43 Mr Hollobone: I underst<strong>and</strong> the legal
framework for ticket inspection on railways is
diVerent to that which operates on buses. Would
there be support for making that legal framework
the same? And then to Mr Mapp: I believe in your
evidence you say that guidelines could be given on
both prosecution <strong>and</strong> on sentencing which better
reflect the serious nature of fare dodging.
Mr Malins: I said in my note that because in my
business we do this as an agency activity for a
number of rail operators—not all of them TOCs I
might say, one of them is Dockl<strong>and</strong>s Light
Railway—we find that the legislation is fit for
purpose. It goes back a very long way to the 19th
Century <strong>and</strong> the Regulation of Railways Act. That
is the one we normally use <strong>and</strong> we do not want any
change in that, it is fine for railways. I really could
not speak for buses but clearly they could not use
that Act because it only applies to railways <strong>and</strong> is
authorised by Acts of Parliament or other similar
means.
Mr Austin: Maybe I could answer that one. The
other piece of legislation is the Penalty Fares Act <strong>and</strong>
the Penalty Fares Rules which apply to certain areas
of certain train operating companies, principally in
the London area but not entirely; it operates in
Leeds <strong>and</strong> Birmingham for example. Again the rules
there are written around the requirements of the
railway rather than a bus where the driver is
inspecting every ticket as you get on the bus. We put
the bit in our evidence about sentencing because
there was (admittedly anecdotal) evidence from
train operating companies around the country that
sentencing of oVenders who have deliberately set out
to travel without a ticket is pretty patchy, <strong>and</strong> some
seem to consider it a more serious oVence than
others <strong>and</strong> sometimes that sends the wrong messages
generally to people who are thinking about trying
it on.
Q44 David Simpson: Given the links between fare
dodging <strong>and</strong> anti-social behaviour, do you think
that enough is being done by the train operators to
protect the honest passengers that are travelling <strong>and</strong>
using their facilities?
Mr Austin: I think you are right to raise that. It is a
very serious issue <strong>and</strong> it is one of the reasons that
makes on-train ticket inspection in urban areas at
certain times of day more expensive because you
cannot do that with a single person or even two
people, it has to be a team of people, very often
supported by a rail enforcement oYcer or the British
Transport Police. That is part of a wider societal
problem, it is not just limited to the railways, <strong>and</strong>
that is a problem. We do try, I think assiduously, to
protect passengers who do try to pay their fares. I
know there are a number of anecdotal experiences
where, as we discussed earlier this afternoon, people
have found it diYcult to buy tickets, <strong>and</strong> I think
smartcard ticketing <strong>and</strong> Oyster will help that
because of the amount of prepay that will be going
on. We try to do that with an increased number of
ticket machines around the system. Mr Mapp has
already mentioned over the last three years 900
additional machines have gone in across the
network. Then there is an appeals procedure for
people who feel they have not been treated fairly.
Q45 Clive EVord: Can I just follow up that point
about safety. Is it not a fact though that you can
eradicate the problem by stopping people who are
obviously intent on causing problems from getting
on trains in the first place, <strong>and</strong> then does it not
become a problem because you do not have stations
manned particularly in oV-peak periods?
Mr Austin: Up to a point in the sense that there is
evidence that gating of stations has helped in
keeping the railway for people who are passengers
not who are just using it as an area to congregate, but
it is not always the complete answer.
Q46 Clive EVord: In this age where people have got a
heightened sense of security on our public transport
system, is having any stations unmanned on the
network a sensible way forward?
Mr Austin: I think it is inevitable. There is a large
number of quite small stations with relatively light
usage all around the country, principally in rural
areas but also in some suburban areas as well, where
the costs <strong>and</strong> the benefits of having staV on the
station are just miles apart.
Mr Malins: Could I add to that Chairman, I
mentioned earlier on that I do some work for the
Dockl<strong>and</strong>s Light Railway <strong>and</strong> I think many of the
Committee will know that is basically an unstaVed
railway as far as stations are concerned. We would
say that in fact they do not have the problem that
you are describing to any great extent, although they
do to a small extent but it is kept under control.
Partly of course that was a system designed to be like
that from the outset, so you can design out some of
the problems by building the thing correctly in the
first place <strong>and</strong> that is more diYcult on an the
established rail network. I would say, yes, you can
have an unstaVed railway that is safe <strong>and</strong> the
Dockl<strong>and</strong>s Light Railway proves it.
Q47 Chairman: Is not a lot of that because it was
specifically built <strong>and</strong> tailored in a particular way?
Does it not have automatic coverage by security
cameras, it is a very restricted railway anyway <strong>and</strong> it
tends, if I may say so without sounding pejorative,