Ticketing and Concessionary Travel on Public Transport - United ...

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Ev 60 Transport Committee: Evidence 12 December 2007 Mr Tom Harris MP <strong>and</strong> Mr Bob Linnard Q493 Chairman: That is not total independence, is it? If someone was criticising you <strong>and</strong> I was the one who was sitting there, of course I would have your best interests at heart. Mr Harris: It is certainly industry run but I have to tell you that I am not aware of any major serious causes for concern in terms of its eVectiveness. Q494 Mrs Ellman: If you do not know what the extent of the increased patronage will be from the National <strong>Concessionary</strong> Fare Scheme, how do you know it is going to produce value for money? What are its benefits actually going to be? Mr Harris: I think the benefits are in terms of social inclusion, in terms of extra mobility <strong>and</strong> extra opportunity for people who qualify for the concessionary card. I accept that those are benefits that cannot be quantified; there is no cost benefit ratio. What we are trying to achieve is something you probably cannot measure in terms of giving freedom to people who might previously have felt that they cannot aVord that level of freedom. Q495 Mrs Ellman: The Commission for Integrated Transport suggested that better value would be gained from extending low fares for young people <strong>and</strong> for people on low incomes. Did you ever consider that as an option? Mr Harris: The act is flexible enough so that that could be an add-on to the system at some point in the future. We have made a deliberate policy decision that older people <strong>and</strong> disabled people are, for the moment, a priority. However, for a number of years we have allowed local authorities to have their own add-ons or increments. If they want to add something on to the base scheme, whether it is young people, whether it is the carers of disabled people, then that is something that the local authorities have the opportunity to add onto the scheme. Q496 Mrs Ellman: Would there be any financial support for that? Mr Harris: No, that would be at the expense of the local authority. Q497 Mrs Ellman: Does the Government have a view on that? Mr Harris: Their view is that local authorities should be able to have the freedom to decide how to spend their own income. I do not think it would be right for us, having set out the base scheme, to say that if you want to have any increments at all we will meet the costs of that. I think that would defeat the purpose. Q498 Chairman: One of the ways in which your smartcard systems would work would of course be making the whole system a closed system. That is why London Underground is so eYcient because it is easier to organise. Do you have any idea of the implications for passengers of making stations which at the present time are open stations closed stations? Mr Harris: We are never going to have a railway system in this country that is completely closed. Q499 Chairman: No, but with respect Minister, many stations will be gated <strong>and</strong> this is going to present a hazard for anyone with a disability or young children or large bags or bicycles. Mr Harris: I do not think that will be the case. The Government will expect the station operators at any station where there are gates to have staV available to make sure that disabled people, people with prams, people with bikes are able to access stations. It is everyone’s right to access those stations. At Waterloo, for example, there has been some criticism along exactly the lines you have just expressed, <strong>and</strong> that gating simply will not happen if it results in significant numbers—or anyone—being excluded physically from Waterloo Station. Q500 Chairman: You will underst<strong>and</strong> that this is not a question that can be lightly dealt with because many people using railway systems will have considerable amounts of baggage. I notice that Virgin has put a notice on Crewe Station which says, “Only travel with luggage which you can conveniently carry” which is very kind of them, but if I wanted to limit the amount of luggage I would not go by train. As long as you can assure us that companies will not be allowed to get away with gating stations in such a way that somebody who is disabled or someone with young children in prams are going to find it very diYcult to use the station. Mr Harris: I can give an absolute guarantee that there will be very strict obligations on any station operator to make sure that where a station is currently accessible by people in those categories that they will continue to have access after gating comes in. The reason I phrase it like is because there are a lot of stations around which are not accessible already, but where they are already accessible when new gating goes in there must be accommodation made for those groups. Q501 Chairman: Minister, it has been very interesting listening to you, but we are very concerned about the problems of integrating these two very diVerent systems. Am I misinterpreting you if I say that you are assuming that within the first year of the operation of new schemes there will a proper assessment not only of the risk element but the benefits <strong>and</strong> general advances that are represented by working with these new schemes? Mr Harris: Do you mean the Bus <strong>Concessionary</strong> Scheme? Q502 Chairman: Yes. Mr Harris: Yes, we will be doing our own assessments on the eVectiveness <strong>and</strong> getting as much information as we can about the success of the scheme. Q503 Chairman: Mr Linnard, how long do you think it will be before ITSO <strong>and</strong> Oyster are completely compatible?
12 December 2007 Mr Tom Harris MP <strong>and</strong> Mr Bob Linnard Mr Linnard: I would not like to give a prediction of exactly when, but we would hope broadly within a couple of years. Q504 Clive EVord: Is that because of the roll out of the equipment or because train operating companies will not agree to it? Mr Linnard: First of all there has to be the completion of the study into the way we are integrating it. There then has to be negotiation between the department <strong>and</strong> TfL <strong>and</strong> its suppliers. That is obviously not entirely possible to predict. Q505 Clive EVord: Are you holding up the process by which Oyster could read the ITSO cards until ITSO is fully integrated on the rail network. Are you blocking it? Are you stopping it? I underst<strong>and</strong> that Transport Committee: Evidence Ev 61 Oyster could actually read ITSO cards right now if you wanted it to <strong>and</strong> that is just being held up because you want to roll out ITSO before you actually have them compatible. Mr Harris: I am afraid that is a new one on me; I am not aware of any deliberate action by the department in that respect. Q506 Chairman: Can you assure us, Mr Linnard, that there is a constant monitoring of the changes <strong>and</strong> any possible gaps that could develop between ITSO <strong>and</strong> any new technology. Mr Linnard: Yes. Q507 Chairman: Minister, you have been very helpful. We are delighted to have had you here this afternoon <strong>and</strong> doubtless you will come again. Mr Harris: I hope so.
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House of Commons Transport Committe
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Contents Report Page 1 Introduction
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4 5. Smartcards offer a range of ne
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6 Integrated bus ticketing 10. Thro
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8 Long distance coach services are
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10 strategy, including those in the
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12 long-distance rail passengers ma
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14 services have not been put in pl
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16 Oyster on rail services in Londo
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18 4 Revenue protection and
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20 Staff safety 61. Transport staff
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22 66. An integrated ticketing syst
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24 Transport should commission an e
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26 concession authorities that attr
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28 operators and a
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30 List of recommendations Integrat
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32 Concessionary t
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34 Formal Minutes Clive Efford Mrs
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36 List of written evidence 1 Dr Ro
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38 List of Reports from the Committ
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Oral evidence Taken before the Tran
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14 November 2007 Mr Chris Austin, M
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Transport Committee: Evidence Ev 11
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Lostwithiel to Liskeard Transport C
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Is the legal framework within which
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The Use of Smartcard Technologies I
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Executive Summary Memorand<
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Integration Nationally Transport Co
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— Ensure the confidentiality of d
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7. What appeal mechanisms exist for
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Concessionary Fare
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Concessionary Fare
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Ferry Transport Committee: Evidence
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Confusion over what local authoriti
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Question 68 Timings of Oyster <stro
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