Ticketing and Concessionary Travel on Public Transport - United ...

Ev 60 Transport Committee: Evidence
12 December 2007 Mr Tom Harris MP <strong>and</strong> Mr Bob Linnard
Q493 Chairman: That is not total independence, is
it? If someone was criticising you <strong>and</strong> I was the one
who was sitting there, of course I would have your
best interests at heart.
Mr Harris: It is certainly industry run but I have to
tell you that I am not aware of any major serious
causes for concern in terms of its eVectiveness.
Q494 Mrs Ellman: If you do not know what the
extent of the increased patronage will be from the
National <strong>Concessionary</strong> Fare Scheme, how do you
know it is going to produce value for money? What
are its benefits actually going to be?
Mr Harris: I think the benefits are in terms of social
inclusion, in terms of extra mobility <strong>and</strong> extra
opportunity for people who qualify for the
concessionary card. I accept that those are benefits
that cannot be quantified; there is no cost benefit
ratio. What we are trying to achieve is something
you probably cannot measure in terms of giving
freedom to people who might previously have felt
that they cannot aVord that level of freedom.
Q495 Mrs Ellman: The Commission for Integrated
Transport suggested that better value would be
gained from extending low fares for young people
<strong>and</strong> for people on low incomes. Did you ever
consider that as an option?
Mr Harris: The act is flexible enough so that that
could be an add-on to the system at some point in the
future. We have made a deliberate policy decision
that older people <strong>and</strong> disabled people are, for the
moment, a priority. However, for a number of years
we have allowed local authorities to have their own
add-ons or increments. If they want to add
something on to the base scheme, whether it is young
people, whether it is the carers of disabled people,
then that is something that the local authorities have
the opportunity to add onto the scheme.
Q496 Mrs Ellman: Would there be any financial
support for that?
Mr Harris: No, that would be at the expense of the
local authority.
Q497 Mrs Ellman: Does the Government have a
view on that?
Mr Harris: Their view is that local authorities
should be able to have the freedom to decide how to
spend their own income. I do not think it would be
right for us, having set out the base scheme, to say
that if you want to have any increments at all we will
meet the costs of that. I think that would defeat
the purpose.
Q498 Chairman: One of the ways in which your
smartcard systems would work would of course be
making the whole system a closed system. That is
why London Underground is so eYcient because it
is easier to organise. Do you have any idea of the
implications for passengers of making stations
which at the present time are open stations closed
stations?
Mr Harris: We are never going to have a railway
system in this country that is completely closed.
Q499 Chairman: No, but with respect Minister,
many stations will be gated <strong>and</strong> this is going to
present a hazard for anyone with a disability or
young children or large bags or bicycles.
Mr Harris: I do not think that will be the case. The
Government will expect the station operators at any
station where there are gates to have staV available
to make sure that disabled people, people with
prams, people with bikes are able to access stations.
It is everyone’s right to access those stations. At
Waterloo, for example, there has been some
criticism along exactly the lines you have just
expressed, <strong>and</strong> that gating simply will not happen if
it results in significant numbers—or anyone—being
excluded physically from Waterloo Station.
Q500 Chairman: You will underst<strong>and</strong> that this is not
a question that can be lightly dealt with because
many people using railway systems will have
considerable amounts of baggage. I notice that
Virgin has put a notice on Crewe Station which says,
“Only travel with luggage which you can
conveniently carry” which is very kind of them, but
if I wanted to limit the amount of luggage I would
not go by train. As long as you can assure us that
companies will not be allowed to get away with
gating stations in such a way that somebody who is
disabled or someone with young children in prams
are going to find it very diYcult to use the station.
Mr Harris: I can give an absolute guarantee that
there will be very strict obligations on any station
operator to make sure that where a station is
currently accessible by people in those categories
that they will continue to have access after gating
comes in. The reason I phrase it like is because there
are a lot of stations around which are not accessible
already, but where they are already accessible when
new gating goes in there must be accommodation
made for those groups.
Q501 Chairman: Minister, it has been very
interesting listening to you, but we are very
concerned about the problems of integrating these
two very diVerent systems. Am I misinterpreting you
if I say that you are assuming that within the first
year of the operation of new schemes there will a
proper assessment not only of the risk element but
the benefits <strong>and</strong> general advances that are
represented by working with these new schemes?
Mr Harris: Do you mean the Bus <strong>Concessionary</strong>
Scheme?
Q502 Chairman: Yes.
Mr Harris: Yes, we will be doing our own
assessments on the eVectiveness <strong>and</strong> getting as much
information as we can about the success of the
scheme.
Q503 Chairman: Mr Linnard, how long do you
think it will be before ITSO <strong>and</strong> Oyster are
completely compatible?