2009 Newsletter 1 of 4

FREE TO MEMBERS
CHAIRMAN’S MESSAGE;
£1 TO NON MEMBERS
CARDIFF TRANSPORT
PRESERVATION GROUP
NEWSLETTER
WWW.CTPG.CO.UK
REGISTERED CHARITY No. 1063157
ISSUE No.1 of 4 – 2010
A taste of summer!
The National Welsh Bristol VR, VHB 678S, proceeds past Barry Depot
watched by depot staff. The depot engineer, Brian Blakemore’s disco
equipment was blaring out from the bus during the 1989 Carnival Parade.
This bus is due to return to Barry later this year.
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A new arrival at Barry Depot is P164 TNY, a Mercedes711D kindly donated by Stagecoach.
In due course it is hoped to return this bus to its original Rhondda Buses livery. Also due at
Barry this year is PAX 466F the former Bedwas & Machen Leyland owned by Julian Peddle
of Uttoxeter. This bus will be available for the group to use to travel to rallies etc. (CTPG)
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CHAIRMAN’S MESSAGE;
Welcome to the first CTPG newsletter of 2010. It has certainly been a
bit chilly at Barry since I last wrote to you. However, this has not
stopped our intrepid band of volunteers progressing on the buses and the
building. Caerphilly 32 and Pontypridd 8 have both had a lot of attention,
the aim being to get them on the road this year. Several other buses such
as 434, 497, 143 and the tow bus have recently been serviced. The
difference is quite marked after a full service showing the benefits of our
pit area. This year we hope to have a few more buses on the road,
however more drivers are needed especially those able to drive manual
gear change buses. We have had two recent additions at Barry, the first is
a donation from Stagecoach. P164 TNY is a Mercedes Benz new to
Rhondda Buses. This was purchased during Julian Peddle’s tenure and it
seems fitting we should have a representative of the time between
National Welsh and Stagecoach. Speaking of Mr Peddle, he has
generously offered PAX 466F on long term loan for us to use and store at
Barry. The second arrival is Western Welsh Tiger Cub FUH 370D, this is
a well known local bus and fits in well into one of its former owners’
facilities. One last piece of vehicle news is that our AEC Swift is
currently receiving some electrical attention in preparation for an MOT
and return to us.
In relation to finances we are in need of an accountant; please can any
member that can assist contact me directly. I am trying to provide buses
for the road runs that we have not used previously but this is getting
harder as the roadworthy Welsh bus stock is limited.
I have received confirmation that the Barry Rally will be on Sunday 6 th
June, the Vale of Glamorgan Council have again kindly offered to
financially support the event which will include a depot open day. This
year should see the return of a train service between Barry Island and the
rally site at Hood Road. Cambrian Railway, the new operator of the line,
is hoping to run either a steam or diesel service.
For those of you that enjoy your internet we now have a Facebook site.
I will try to keep this up to date with photos of the happenings at Barry.
The site is open to all have a look and add your own photos.
Mike; Tel: 01443 862144
Email : mikeystrad73@btinternet.com
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DECEMBER MEETING;
This annual quiz night presented once again by Mr. Chris Taylor assisted
by Mr. Taylor Jnr. We were joined on this occasion by our friends from
the PSV Circle and Omnibus Society and the room was divided into four
teams
Most of the questions were easy. It was the answers that presented the
difficulty. One participant failed to answer a question on a subject that he
had actually written a book about. Maybe it was too many mince pies!
The illustrious victors were a team led by John Jones who somehow
managed to collect double clubcard points.
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This framed sketch of Barry Depot in the 1950’s is now on display with
our memorabilia in the Brinkworth Room. It was commissioned and
presented to the group by Glyn Bowen on his move to Shropshire. The
sketch was completed by Mr. John Phillips of Hengoed.
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CTPG Annual General Meeting 2010 – Wednesday 20 th January
19:40 hrs. Held at County Hall, Atlantic Wharf, Cardiff.
Present – 23 members
1. Apologies for absence
Nicky Reason, Glyn Bowen, Julian Parker
2. Minutes of last AGM
2009 AGM Minutes accepted
3. Chairman’s Report
The group now has a higher profile including appearances in the local
media during 2009.
Thanks were offered to Viv Corbin for the newsletters issued.
The membership has now topped 100 members, with an increase in
membership noted following the Barry rally and Depot open day.
Two Rallies were organised during 2009 at Barry and Merthyr Tydfil, both
being very well attended. Thanks were proffered to Glyn Bowen for his
work regarding the Merthyr Tydfil Rally. The Chairman offered thanks to
all drivers who assisted on both days. A plea was issued to all members
for more volunteers to assist with the rallies and public events planned for
the upcoming year. A slideshow of photographs were shown from the
Barry Depot opening by the Mayor & Mayoress of Barry in June 2009.
Other highlights in 2009 were;
The dedication of the Depot collection room by Roy Noble to the
memory of Julian Brinkworth, the first chairman of the CTPG.
11 evening meetings were held throughout the year – all well
attended.
Continued membership of NARTM & WCVA places CTPG in the
Annual Busses Restored book previously published by Ian Allan.
The CTPG Website has registered 56,057 hits/visits over its 4
years of existence. The Chairman offered thanks to Mac Winfield
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and Alex Jeenes/Matt Turner for their work on the CTPG and
Barry Depot websites.
Good publicity for the Group was received from articles in Bus &
Coach Preservation, Buses, Bus Weekly and the local press.
5 Rallies attended with the main income generated from the
charity stall remains photographs. An appeal was made by the
Chairman for new photos and collections to be added to the
exiting collection to enable a turnover of stock for regular
customers.
The Chairman gave an update on the CTPG fleet. (A full update will
appear in the next newsletter.)
Possible group events for 2010 proposed from the floor and by Mike
Taylor:
Transport swap meet at Barry Depot
Depot open day with ‘Gavin & Stacey’ themed tours of Barry &
Barry Island
Dr Who themed tours of Cardiff with Dr Who memorabilia stalls
at the Depot
Halloween and Christmas events for the local community –
suggested liaising with the Round Table for the Barry and Penarth
areas
School visits to Barry depot.
Questions were raised from the floor regarding Health & Safety issues and
CRB security checks. It was suggested that contact be made with Wythall
bus museum to see how they addressed these issues in regards to their
education centre. The Chairman highlighted that projects of this kind
would receive a positive reception from the Vale of Glamorgan Council
and would benefit liaisons with the Local Authority, assisting future
funding and grant applications for the group.
The Chairman asked for suggestions for a logo design for the CTPG. The
logo must include the name of the group. A suggestion was made for the
purchase of CTPG logo merchandise which could be sold throughout the
year to provide revenue for the group.
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4. Treasurers Financial Statement
Opening Balance 01/01/2009 3402.69
Closing Balance 31/12/2009 4675.55
= 1272.86
The Chairman asked if any member of the group was aware of an
accountant who would be able to assist the group with the Group
accounts.
Questions were raised regarding the breakdown of the percentage that
donations made to the on-going income of the group. Paul Hamley
confirmed that donations were not detailed as individual items on the
financial report but were listed as a lump sum within the income section.
Questions were raised from the floor reference whether the current
income from rental costs for the storage of member’s vehicles was
sufficient. Paul confirmed that current rental costs being paid by members
were sufficient to cover rent charges paid out for Barry Depot, Barry
Docks and Hereford storage sites. It was confirmed that it is more
economically viable comparing towing costs and rents paid to continue to
store the 2 CTPG vehicles in Hereford at their present site rather than
relocate them to South Wales.
After no further questions the acceptance of the accounts was proposed
by Chris Taylor, seconded by Viv Corbin.
5. Election of Committee Officers
Mike Taylor confirmed that there had been no resignations or
expressions of interest to join the committee:
Chairman Mike Taylor Proposed and seconded
Deputy Chairman Chris Taylor Proposed and seconded
Secretary Gayle Alder Proposed and seconded
Treasurer Paul Hamley Proposed and seconded
Membership Sec. Derek Perry Proposed and seconded
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6. Newsletter
The newsletter editor, Viv Corbin reported that the improved quality
December 2009 newsletter had cost £1 per copy to produce plus postage
costs.
He reported that a local printer has been sourced who has quoted as
follows to print & assemble a newsletter to the same quality as the last
issue at 75 p per copy for 20 pages or 85p per copy for 24 pages, to be
reproduced in black & white with a colour card cover. Postage costs are
not included.
A proposal for 20 page or 24 page newsletters was put to the group; the
vote was carried for newsletter to be extended to 24 pages at a
production cost of 85p per copy. A request was made for sponsorship of
some issues to assist in reducing newsletters costs.
A query was raised reference whether the newsletter would be available
for issue in an electronic format if members wished. This option is to be
investigated further.
7. 2010 Rally & Meetings Programme
Future events are listed at the back of this newsletter and on our website
A request was made by the Chairman for meeting speakers, vehicles and
possible road run locations/venues for the 2010 programme. Suggestions
were made for an open night at Barry depot, proposed visits to the Ex
Bedwas & Machen depot and Swansea. Several vehicles were suggested,
availability of which is to be confirmed.
Suggested speakers were Roger Simms, Bryon Gage, Clayton Jones, Stuart
Cole, John Jones & Peter Heath. Mike Taylor & Mac Winfield to enquire
as to willingness & availability.
8. 2010 Annual Subscription Fees
The Chairman proposed to keep subscription fees at existing level:
£15 Single and £25 Joint partner/Family
Motion agreed by group members present.
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The Chairman proposed for evening road run fees to revert back to £3,
after some discussion it was proposed that the minimum cost be £3 but
members have the option of donating £5 if so wished.
Majority vote for a £3 minimum cost per person for Road runs was
carried.
9. Any Other Business
Berwyn Jones requested if he could table the suggestion of a visit being
made to Barry depot for his club. This was agreed by the members
present.
A request was made for a CTPG events itinerary to be provided to the
Ian Allan bookshop for display. This was agreed.
Proposal raised by Derek Perry that the possibility of an improved form
of heating such as an electric fan heater for the canteen at Barry Depot be
reviewed. It was agreed by members present that this would be reviewed.
Meeting concluded at 21:30 hrs.
Gayle Alder (Secretary)
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FEBRUARY MEETING
Berwyn Prys Jones kicked off our 2010 season of presentations with a
movie show featuring not only buses but railways and boats.
We were treated to a tour of the British Isles following Berwyn’s
expeditions around various road and rail museums. Among the museums
we viewed were Wythall in the Midlands, South Yorkshire, Cumbria and
Lathalmond in Scotland.
Among the railways featured were at Shildon, Llangollen, Mallaig and
Cork. There were also several views of the new ‘Tornado’ locomotive.
Boats were featured in a fascinating film of the ‘Falkirk Wheel’ and the
visit of the paddle steamer ‘Waverley’ to Cardiff Docks.
Unfortunately there was a poor attendance at this meeting. We hope
that more members will support future meetings. Don’t forget, it’s the 3 rd
Wednesday of the month at County Hall, usually at 19.30.
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CARDIFF’S TD2’s AND THE CROSVILLE CONNECTION
by Anthony Brewer with additional information by Chris Taylor.
Cardiff Corporation Transport’s need for double deckers first arose in
1922 following the purchase of the route to Whitchurch from the Cardiff
Tramways Company. This route had used double deckers since 1907,
but as no vehicles were involved with the purchase, C.C.T. bought 6 new
Dennis- Stevens 40hp, petrol electric chassis with Dodson open top
bodies in 1922.
Further new petrol engine double deckers were purchased over the next
few years, including 18 Dennis 4 ton (1924-6), 20 Dennis HS (1929) and 4
Thornycroft LC (1930). These were supplemented in 1927 by 3 Palladium
and 3 Commer double deckers purchased from J.A. Rich along with the
Rhiwbina route. Between 1929 and 1934 a range of ex. demonstration
double deckers were trialled and then purchased including Dennis H,
Crossley Condor, Thornycroft BC, Daimler CH6, Leyland Titan and AEC
Regent, not forgetting the rare Morris Commercial Imperial which is
believed never actually ran in Cardiff.
The AEC Regent and Leyland Titan were to set the standard for front
engine double deck design over the next 40 years, and as a result of the
trials, these two models formed the basis of the Cardiff double deck fleet
during the 1930’s and 1940’s. All the Regents, except the ex. demo MV
529, were oil engine but the first batch of Titans were powered by petrol,
although one of the Titan demonstrators arrived in Cardiff with an early
8.1 litre oil engine (TF 6821). Most were converted to 8.6 litre oil
engines in 1935. When during the war Cardiff decided to re-body its
batch of ten Leyland TD2’s, the surplus N.C.M.E. bodies were acquired by
Bristol Tramways for £110 each in 1944. These were used to re-body
second-hand chassis between 1944 and 1946 to cover wartime vehicle
shortage.
The Crosville Connection.
Seven of the B.T.C.C. double deckers carrying ex. Cardiff bodies
subsequently saw further service with Crosville between 1949 and 1954.
The bodies concerned related to No’s 53-4, 56-8/60/62 (KG1146-7,49-
51/53/55). Four of these bodies were fitted to chassis DB9398, CK4222,
KR6392 and WH3304 that ran for Crosville in as acquired condition until
1952, when they were withdrawn and sold.
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Two of the Leyland TD2’s with their original Northern Counties bodies. KG1146
No.113 later 53 (top), when new and KG1155 (62) complete with wartime white
painted mudguards. (C.J. Taylor & W.J. Haynes)
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Despite C.C.T. deciding the original bodies (from KG 1146-55) were life
expired by 1944, three of these remarkable survivors were matched up
with their third chassis whilst in service with Crosville.
By 1950 it was decided that due to either the poor condition of the body
or chassis of some of the pre-war vehicles, that it would be advantageous
for Crosville to combine the best chassis/body combinations in a new rebodying
exercise. Three of the former Cardiff N.C.M.E. bodies (by then
mounted on UF 7413/DB9399/WH3309) were deemed worthy of re-use.
Also in 1950 Crosville decided to re-body CK4411 with the 18 year old
N.C.M.E. body from DB9399 (originally on KG1146) and EK8106 with the
body from WH3309 (originally on KG1149). These new combinations saw
service until 1953.
T
KG1148 (M580) in service with Crosville showing E.C.W. body and the lower cov-rad radiator
fitted in 1948. Alongside is DR9635 (M235). (C.J. Taylor)
Three further Cardiff TD2 chassis had been purchased in 1948 by
Crosville for £175 each (KG1148,51-2). Crosville had offered to buy the
remainder of the TD2 chassis but these were still not immediately
available and were still for sale two years later. KG 1148/1151 were then
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fitted with new E.C.W. lowbridge bodies allowing an extended service life
of 8 years, both being withdrawn in 1956. Remarkably the N.C.M.E. body
originally fitted to KG1151 was also in service with Crosville between
1949 and 1953, mounted on the chassis of CK4222. Therefore it was
possible for the original body and chassis of KG1151 to pass each other
while in service. (Reader, are you keeping up?)
In 1950 the most remarkable re-body of all at Crosville took place when
KG1152 received the serviceable body from UF7413, whose chassis was
considered life expired. This resulted in a former Cardiff TD2 chassis
being re-united with a former Cardiff N.C.M.E. body from the batch new
18 years before. This bus remained with Crosville until 1954.
The Cardiff East Lancs bodied TD2’s.
The bodies that Cardiff fitted to their ten TD2’s in 1944-6 were not utility
type but steel framed East Lancs bodies of substantial construction of 56
seat highbridge type as against the former lowbridge N.C.M.E. 48 seats.
The increase in height and weight caused operational problems straight
away. The worst effect was insufficient braking. The heavy steering also
had to be dealt with by lowering the ratio of the steering cams.
KG1146 again, this time with the 1946 East Lancs body (C.J. Taylor)
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This chassis/body combination was short lived as in 1948 it was decided
to fit the East Lancs bodies to new chassis. The only chassis immediately
available and suitable for these bodies was the Daimler CVD6 of which
ten chassis were purchased. This still left much modification to the body
before fitting and, despite the urgency for new vehicles, took from 1948
to 1950. The Daimlers were numbered 52-61 (EBO1-10). Again these
chassis/body combinations were short lived as the ten Daimlers were sent
to Longwell Green at Bristol in 1957 to be fitted with new 8 feet wide
bodies.
The story of Cardiff Leyland TD1’s and their Southern Vectis connection
will appear in a future edition.
14

St. David’s Travel in the 1840’s.
Maybe an ancestor of C.J. is holding the reins !
Did he have an offer from STAGECOACH ?
15

A LOOK AT CARDIFF BUS STATION;
by Viv Corbin
The area between the Cardiff General Station and Park Street, including
the site of the present Central Bus Station, was formerly an area of small
houses and narrow streets known as Temperance Town. It was so called
because of a stipulation made in 1858 by the landowner, Colonel Edward
Robert Wood, in the lease to Jacob Scott Matthews that certain trades
could not be carried out in the area. These included ‘tavern keeper, ale
house keeper or retailer of beer’.
It was not surprising that the largest building on the site was the
Temperance Hall which later became the Wood Street Congregational
Church. To the west of the hall were the roads named Havelock, Scott,
Raven, Gough and Eisteddfod Streets.
Plan of Central Square in the 1930’s (Stewart Williams)
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As far back as 1897, the Council were considering schemes to improve
the area by erecting large public buildings in front of the railway station.
Nothing much happened until the mid 1930’s when the old housing was
cleared, leaving just the roads and pavements in place. Further plans
emerged for a Sports Hall, Concert Hall, Ballroom, and Swimming Pool.
And crucially in view of the increasing road traffic, a Central Bus Station.
Again nothing came of these grand plans, and by the early post-war years
severe building restrictions meant that only the new Park Street
Telephone exchange had been built on the edge of the site.
Wood Street and Central Square looking west c. 1951
(Stewart Williams)
The war years saw underground air raid shelters provided to the south of
Wood Street and an American Army Camp on the site of the future
Empire Pool. By the end of the war Raven Street and the adjoining
derelict streets on the north side of Wood Street were in use by the
Western Welsh and other bus companies as a bus terminus. Red &
White Services operated from open ground where Marland House now
stands.
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Other out of town bus services departed from Gorsedd gardens, Park
Place and Fitzalan Road. It became increasingly obvious that a bus station
was urgently required as the Raven Street terminus in particular was
exposed to all weathers with passengers often queuing in pools of water
and buses lurching across the broken pavements and cambered roads.
With the widening of Wood Street, access to these streets was blocked
off leaving buses to arrive and depart via Havelock Street and Park Street.
In 1950 it was suggested that the private bus companies finance the
building of a modern bus terminus. This would be situated to the south
of Wood Street, the terminal building of which would feature a flat roof
that could be used by a helicopter taxi service. Needless to say neither
the private scheme nor the helicopters got off the ground.
Cardiff Bus Station from the west in 1954 prior to opening.
(Stewart Williams)
A few years later the City Council agreed to build a bus station at a cost
of £22,000. The new Central Bus Station opened on 6 th December 1954
and was soon used by up to 13 different bus companies who paid a fee to
the Council.
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The Terminal Buildings were completed by June 1957 at a cost of £46,000
and were part rented to the Western Welsh at £4,000 p.a. This
accommodated the General Manager and traffic office staff over the next
8 years.
Over the next few years, the rest of Temperance Town was developed.
Firstly the Empire Pool opened for the 1958 Empire Games, then
Thomson House, St. David’s House and Marland House.
Jacob Scott Matthews was commemorated once again with the opening of
Scott Road. In the early 1970’s St Dyfrig’s Church and Wood Street
School were demolished to make way for new offices for the Cardiff
Transport and City Planning offices. Stadium House was erected in Park
Street followed by Southgate House on the site of the former
Temperance Hall.
Central Bus Station in 1981
(Stewart Williams)
In the 1990’s the Wales Empire Pool, Telephone Exchange and the
Territorial Army Centre all disappeared with the building of the
Millennium Centre.
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The narrow curved roads and concrete bus shelters of the original bus
station survived until the station was rebuilt in 1982-83. So the present
brown domed shelters are approaching thirty years of age.
Some ten years ago a scheme was announced to put a roof over the bus
station, but again nothing happened. Then there was the plan to move
the bus station slightly eastwards to Marland House where buses would
use end on loading as at Newport & Swansea bus stations.
Early in 2008 the demolition of Terminal Buildings and the adjacent bus
stands began without any clear indication what was to replace it. It
appears that the Council is considering alternatives that may see the bus
station disappear completely.
In October 2009 the ill conceived ‘bus box’ in the city centre was
introduced. This meant that many of the city bus services were not
accessible from the railway station. In fact, similar to what is was like 60
years ago. This is amazing in view of the need to integrate transport
services. Heavy traffic leading up to last Christmas tested this plan to the
full, in particular in the area of the new St. David’s 2 Centre.
What’s the betting that not too far in the future it will all change again?
Everything goes in circles! What goes around – comes around!
Western Mail 3 rd December 1954
A similar article first appeared in the Cardiff Bus ‘Omnibuzz’ magazine in
2002. Thanks again to Stewart Williams for permission to use material
from the ‘Cardiff Yesterday’ series.
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20

OOPS (1)
The first in a series of accident photographs from the Western Welsh
archives.
We know that Bridgemasters rocked and rolled a bit but lying down on
the job is just being silly. This happened to 699 in October 1964 on the
814 service from Haverfordwest to Milford Haven. It was out of service
for some six months.
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21

DATES FOR YOUR 2010 DIARY;
17 th March; Slide show presented by John Jones
28 th March; Bristol VBG Mini Running Day.
21 st April; ‘Travel in the Valleys’ presented by Bob McCoy.
16 th May; Bristol Harbourside Rally
19 th May; Evening Road Run 19.00 at County Hall. (T.B.C.)
6 th June; Barry Festival of Transport & Open Day.
16 th June; Evening Road Run (T.B.C.)
20 th June; National Transport Festival, Swansea
21 st July; Evening Road Run (T.B.C.)
15 th Aug. Bristol VBG Rally & Running Day.
18 th Aug; Evening Road Run (T.B.C.)
5 th Sept; Bus & Coach Wales Rally, Merthyr Tydfil
15 th Sept; Evening Meeting 19.30 at County Hall (T.B.C.)
19 th Sept; WHOTT Rally, Exeter.
20 th Oct; Evening Meeting 19.30 at County Hall (T.B.C.)
17 th Nov; Peter Heath continues his World Tour of the U.K.
15 th Dec; Quiz Night hosted by Chris Taylor.
(T.B.C.) To be confirmed. Please check for updates on our website
www.ctpg.co.uk
EDITOR’S NOTES:
Well that’s the first issue of 2010, with some changes in layout this time.
Thanks to Gayle for the AGM report and to Anthony and Chris for the
Leyland article. We hope this is the type of stuff you want to read. Other
similar articles are lined up for future issues, perhaps along with your own
rally reports or articles. If you wish to submit items or comments post
them to 8 Springfield Rise, Barry CF63 1RE or email me at
viv.corbin@ntlworld.com.
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About the CTPG
The CTPG lease the former Western Welsh Depot on Broad Street, Barry from the Vale
of Glamorgan Council. The CTPG organises two vehicle rallies each year and holds a
monthly meeting on the third Wednesday of each month. Members receive a quarterly
newsletter and if they wish they can help to restore the Group’s buses, ride on them and
travel to rallies.
The Group aims to preserve representative samples of the buses that ran in South East
Wales and the Valleys, as well as memorabilia and records of the operating companies.
Annual membership of the Group is £15, which runs from the date of joining. Joint
membership is also available for £25.
CTPG Committee
Chairman
Deputy Chairman
Secretary
Mike Taylor, 10 Ger Nant Ystrad Mynach, Hengoed
CF82 7FE Phone: 01443 862144
email: mikeystrad73@btinternet.com
Chris Taylor, 31 Heol Wen, Rhiwbina Cardiff CF14 6EG
Phone: 029 20693734
Gayle Alder, 16 Carter Place, Fairwater, Cardiff
CF5 3NP
Treasurer Paul Hamley email: squash33@btinternet.com
Membership Secretary
Derek Perry, 11 Countess Place, Penarth CF64 3UJ
Other Non Committee Post Holders
Editor Viv Corbin email: viv.corbin@ntlworld.com
Webmaster CTPG Mac Winfield email: postmaster@ctpg.co.uk
Webmaster Bus Depot Matt Turner email: tmatt95@gmail.com
Publicity Officer Nicky Reason email: nickyreason@hotmail.com
www.ctpg.co.uk & www.the-busdepot-barry.org
Published by the Cardiff Transport Preservation Group
(Registered as a Charity No. 1063157)
The opinions and views expressed in this publication are not necessarily those of the
Group, its Committee or the Editor. Every effort is made to give due credit for all
photographs and material used in this newsletter. Should there be any unintended breach
of copyright; the Editor must be informed to enable a correcting acknowledgement to be
made.
23

No apologies for including this 60 year old advert as it recalls the fine Guy Arab of our friends
Ken and Shirley Morgan who regularly enter the CTPG rallies.
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