Narcotics research, rehabilitation, and treatment. Hearings, Ninety ...
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Narcotics research, rehabilitation, and treatment. Hearings, Ninety ...

Narcotics research, rehabilitation, and treatment. Hearings, Ninety ... Narcotics research, rehabilitation, and treatment. Hearings, Ninety ...

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94Jaffe. Well, there would be some immediate results or very earlyresults, and they would be distributed.Mr. Brasco. I know you said 5 years, but are you saying it is 5 yearsbefore any of the equipment could be used ?Mr. Jaffe. I use tlie 5 years only as a way of averaging cost.There is no significance in the 5 years, in terms of when resultswould be available. I would expect there to be a stream of resultsover a longer period of time, too. Just as a way of averaging the costI say I think that the program might run something like $10 millionover a 5-year period. If you like, say an average of $2 million a yearor something like that.Mr. Brasco. I wasn't inquiring so much about the money. I was concernedabout when it might be operational.I am trying to find out when you would have a system that you aretalking about? I am not trying to pin you down, just trying to getan idea.Mr. Jaffe. I think it might be as early as a year before we can spotpoppyfields from the air, or a fraction of a year, within a year.Some of the other techniques, the establishment of a model forexample, and the operation of that, generally takes longer becausethere are long periods .of validation necessary while you test the thingout and make sure you got the right model.So there are differences. I think that sensors, for example, mightrun 1 to 2 years, something in that period, or even less.Chairman Pepper. Dr. Yondorf ?Dr. YoNDORF. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.I would suggest that sensing from satellites would require muchmore development. It is easier with our pjresent technology to identifypoppyfiields with airborne sensing equipment; that is, with minoradaptations of sensor equipment now existing on aircraft. On thepolitical problems of flying over foreign territory with aircraft, youare more expert than I am, but technically this is where one shouldstart. Sensors aren't sufficiently discriminating now to identify cropsfrom very great altitudes. Research and development money initiallyshould be spent to develop more sensitive sensors and test them out.Mr. Brasco. Thank you.Chairman Pepper. Mr. Wigsins.Mr. Wiggins. I have no ouestions, Mr. Chairman.Chairman Pepper. Mr. Mann.Mr. Maxn. You imply that the governmental efforts beins: madenow in these areas are minimal. Are they doing anything with referenceto opium crop detection capabilities, sensor devices?Mr. Jaffe. Yes; they are. In fact, with the exception of the databank on which I was not able to uncover anything, something is beingdone in each of the other areas. There is something being done on thequestion of surveillance from the air, and some of the others—thesensors and tracers, too. There is some very limited modeling going on.Mr. Mann. Dr. Yondorf, you sujrgested that aircraft surveillanceto develon the techniques is a preliminary step to developing a satellitecapability.Do you think a satellite capability is possible ?Dr. Yondorf. We do think it is possible. It is just a matter of refiningexisting techniques. Of course, one can ai-gue Ihon from which

d5altitude the satellites should operate. We have satellites that go upto 22,000 miles—synchronic altitude—and it probably is extremelydifficult to see poppies from that altitude.But low altitude satellites might well attain the discrimination onewould need for this purpose.Mr. Mann. Mr. Jaffe, are you aware of any aerial surveillance, aerialefforts made by the United States of poppyfields?Mr. Jafte. No;and those who are in a lot better position to haveheard of any such things tell me that they are 99 percent sure thatthere is no such thing in existence. To date, no aerial surveillance hasbeen made of poppyfields.Mr. Mann. Well, is my information correct that there are poppyfieldsin areas of this world. Southeast Asia, for example, where wehave a lot of aircraft operating ?Mr. Jaffe. That is true.Mr. Mann. No further questions.Chairman Pepper. Mr. Steiger.Mr. Steiger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.Just a couple of questions, Mr. Jaffe.Incidentally, I for one find your presentation very interesting asopposed to my colleagues' rather casual interest. I wonder if you haveheard of the work of Joe Zabitzi—and I can't tell you how to spell it,He works for the USGS and has developed infrared photography primarilyin the search of water resources and has developedMr. Jaffe. I have heard of the work they are doing, but the name isnot familiar.Mr. Steiger. I think it might be of interest for you gentlemen tocoordinate with him because he has done some very dramatic thingsI have seen, and obviously, it coincides completely with the type ofthing you are doing here. I know you are aware of this, but I thinkthe record should reflect your awareness, since your statement does not.In all your research and development I would assume you wouldsuggest the need for security, even in the research and developmentphase, so as to at least minimize the opportunity for the countermeasuresyou referred to ?Mr. Jaffe. Absolutely;yes. I certainly agree with that.Mr. Steiger. I say this because, interestingly enough, Mr. Zabitzirecited to me a proposal by a gentleman from the private sector, Ibelieve would be a friendly way of saying it, who asked him if hecould find poppyfields for him. He was on a United Nations missionin North Africa, and he was asked if his technique would show uppoppyfields.This fellow, who said he was a horticulturist, which I thought wasinteresting, indicated that he would be willing to pay for the informationas to the location of the poppyfield.So there is an awareness among the group.Mr. Wiggins. Horticulturists ?Mr. Steiger. Among the horticulturists.That is all, Mr. Chairman.Chairman Pepper. Mr. Rangel.Mr. Rangel. Mr. Jaffe, in the course of your studies, upon what doyou base the assumption that the United States does not know wherethese opium crops are located or where the laboratories are ?

94Jaffe. Well, there would be some immediate results or very earlyresults, <strong>and</strong> they would be distributed.Mr. Brasco. I know you said 5 years, but are you saying it is 5 yearsbefore any of the equipment could be used ?Mr. Jaffe. I use tlie 5 years only as a way of averaging cost.There is no significance in the 5 years, in terms of when resultswould be available. I would expect there to be a stream of resultsover a longer period of time, too. Just as a way of averaging the costI say I think that the program might run something like $10 millionover a 5-year period. If you like, say an average of $2 million a yearor something like that.Mr. Brasco. I wasn't inquiring so much about the money. I was concernedabout when it might be operational.I am trying to find out when you would have a system that you aretalking about? I am not trying to pin you down, just trying to getan idea.Mr. Jaffe. I think it might be as early as a year before we can spotpoppyfields from the air, or a fraction of a year, within a year.Some of the other techniques, the establishment of a model forexample, <strong>and</strong> the operation of that, generally takes longer becausethere are long periods .of validation necessary while you test the thingout <strong>and</strong> make sure you got the right model.So there are differences. I think that sensors, for example, mightrun 1 to 2 years, something in that period, or even less.Chairman Pepper. Dr. Yondorf ?Dr. YoNDORF. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.I would suggest that sensing from satellites would require muchmore development. It is easier with our pjresent technology to identifypoppyfiields with airborne sensing equipment; that is, with minoradaptations of sensor equipment now existing on aircraft. On thepolitical problems of flying over foreign territory with aircraft, youare more expert than I am, but technically this is where one shouldstart. Sensors aren't sufficiently discriminating now to identify cropsfrom very great altitudes. Research <strong>and</strong> development money initiallyshould be spent to develop more sensitive sensors <strong>and</strong> test them out.Mr. Brasco. Thank you.Chairman Pepper. Mr. Wigsins.Mr. Wiggins. I have no ouestions, Mr. Chairman.Chairman Pepper. Mr. Mann.Mr. Maxn. You imply that the governmental efforts beins: madenow in these areas are minimal. Are they doing anything with referenceto opium crop detection capabilities, sensor devices?Mr. Jaffe. Yes; they are. In fact, with the exception of the databank on which I was not able to uncover anything, something is beingdone in each of the other areas. There is something being done on thequestion of surveillance from the air, <strong>and</strong> some of the others—thesensors <strong>and</strong> tracers, too. There is some very limited modeling going on.Mr. Mann. Dr. Yondorf, you sujrgested that aircraft surveillanceto develon the techniques is a preliminary step to developing a satellitecapability.Do you think a satellite capability is possible ?Dr. Yondorf. We do think it is possible. It is just a matter of refiningexisting techniques. Of course, one can ai-gue Ihon from which

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