Ev 40 Justice Committee: EvidenceTuesday 5 March 2013Members present:Sir Alan Beith (Chair)Steve BrineRehman ChishtiJeremy CorbynNick de BoisGareth Johnson________________Mr Elfyn LlwydSeema MalhotraGraham StringerMike Wea<strong>the</strong>rleyExamination of WitnessesWitnesses: Liz Calderbank, HM Chief Inspector of Probation (Acting), Val Castell, Magistrates’ AssociationSentencing Committee, and Liz Rijnenberg, Chief Executive, Wiltshire Probation Trust, and Probation Chiefs’Association Lead for <strong>Women</strong> Offenders, gave evidence.Chair: Welcome. We are very glad to have <strong>the</strong>help this morning of Liz Calderbank, <strong>the</strong> actingChief Inspector of Probation, Val Castell from <strong>the</strong>Magistrates Association Sentencing Committee, andLiz Rijnenberg from <strong>the</strong> Probation Chiefs Association,who are here to help us with <strong>the</strong> work that we aredoing on women <strong>offenders</strong>. I ask Mr Llwyd to open<strong>the</strong> questions.Q193 Mr Llwyd: Good morning. Would you pleasegive us your overall impression of <strong>the</strong> progress that hasbeen made in implementing <strong>the</strong> recommendations of<strong>the</strong> landmark <strong>Corston</strong> report?Val Castell: The word that I would use is variable.In some areas <strong>the</strong>re has been considerable progress,and in o<strong>the</strong>r areas not very much at all. I use <strong>the</strong>word “areas” in two senses, because <strong>the</strong>re havebeen differences geographically with what has beenimplemented, and <strong>the</strong>re are also some parts of <strong>the</strong><strong>Corston</strong> recommendations that have been implementedmuch more fully than o<strong>the</strong>r parts.Geographically, <strong>the</strong>re has been a lot of work on <strong>the</strong> partof NOMS to bring some existing women’s projectsunder <strong>the</strong> NOMS umbrella and to help o<strong>the</strong>r projectsstart. In some areas of <strong>the</strong> country, that has workedextremely well, but o<strong>the</strong>r areas of <strong>the</strong> country still donot have any specific women’s community sentenceprovision. The area where <strong>the</strong>re has probably beenvery little progress has been in trying to bring aboutsmaller custodial units for women.Q194 Mr Llwyd: In your evidence to us, you referto <strong>the</strong> <strong>Corston</strong> report’s highlighting of <strong>the</strong> fact that nofewer than 80% of women in prison have one or moremental health problems. There is a prevalence out in<strong>the</strong> community as well. Have you seen any evidencethat something is being done to tackle that?Val Castell: Yes. Certainly, in my area we have amuch better provision <strong>the</strong>se days; we have a mentalhealth worker at <strong>the</strong> court. We still have a problemwith borderline mental health cases, where <strong>the</strong> mentalhealth worker says, “Well, actually <strong>the</strong>re doesn’t seemto be any clinical problem.” Of course, a lot of <strong>the</strong>sethings can be exacerbated by things like custodialsentences, so it may be that some of <strong>the</strong>se problemswould not become apparent until later on in <strong>the</strong>process. Yes, <strong>the</strong>re have been improvements; and, yes,we do have a mental health worker in court. That doesnot necessarily mean that <strong>the</strong>se problems show up atthat stage, and I think that <strong>the</strong>re is more still to be done.Q195 Mr Llwyd: I take it that, overall, this is verypatchy; it depends where you are. It is a postcodelottery almost, isn’t it?Val Castell: Yes. Again, a lot of <strong>the</strong> women’s projectsdo work with mental health problems, but <strong>the</strong>y are noteverywhere. I know that when Baroness <strong>Corston</strong> gaveyou her evidence, she talked about Missing Link inBristol. It does a lot of work with women who havemental health difficulties. It only works with <strong>the</strong> Bristolmagistrates court; it does not work, for example, withour court, which is next door, in South Gloucestershire,so you have a clear difference in <strong>the</strong> assistance thatwomen are getting in one area and in ano<strong>the</strong>r.Liz Calderbank: My overall impression would beto say that probation trusts have had difficulty insustaining momentum following <strong>the</strong> publication of<strong>the</strong> <strong>Corston</strong> report. Certainly, what we saw at <strong>the</strong>time of <strong>the</strong> field work undertaken two years ago wasconsiderable energy, particularly at a strategic level,in taking initiatives forward. That was led by <strong>the</strong>cross-government women’s group and a number ofchampions at national and local level.At <strong>the</strong> time, <strong>the</strong> criticism that we made of this wasthat, although <strong>the</strong>re was a lot of work happeningstrategically, it was only just beginning to cascadedown to an operational level. You will recollect from<strong>the</strong> report that we were quite critical of some elementsof practice that we saw. What we also saw, of course,was <strong>the</strong> growing emergence of women’s centres and<strong>the</strong> work that <strong>the</strong>y were doing, and <strong>the</strong> various o<strong>the</strong>rinitiatives that were coming along.I would very much agree with Val’s description that it ispatchy. It was patchy <strong>the</strong>n, and it is still patchy as far asI can see. The difficulty of maintaining this momentumat a time of considerable organisational change, and<strong>the</strong> prospect of considerable organisational change, isreally quite a challenge.Liz Rijnenberg: There has been a huge impetus toimproving awareness that women require a differentand distinct approach. The development of women’scommunity projects has been far-reaching, in terms ofproviding a range of pathways for women in one singleplace.The issue is that <strong>the</strong> funding for those projects is stillfairly limited; and <strong>the</strong>re are a few areas that still do
Justice Committee: Evidence Ev 415 March 2013 Liz Calderbank, Val Castell and Liz Rijnenbergnot have a women’s community project. That said,NOMS has provided some money for 2013–14 toextend women’s community projects to a few areas,particularly in <strong>the</strong> south-west—to Wiltshire and Dorset.I think that <strong>the</strong> absence of <strong>the</strong> national women’s team inNOMS has led to a standstill in <strong>the</strong> development of <strong>the</strong>strategy. It would be really helpful if representatives inDepartments across Government had a set of joined-uptargets to ensure that all <strong>the</strong> needs of women are met.One of <strong>the</strong> issues that causes me particular concern is<strong>the</strong> fact that we still do not have <strong>the</strong> resources necessaryto support women and <strong>the</strong>ir children to prevent <strong>the</strong>mfrom going into custody and to prevent those childrenbeing cared for by o<strong>the</strong>r people. Val mentioned <strong>the</strong>importance of residential alternatives for women, andthis is something that we should try to drive forward aspart of a wider strategy.Q196 Mr Llwyd: In several pieces of evidence thatwe have received in connection with this inquiry, <strong>the</strong>rehas been concern that this problem is not recognisedacross various Departments, as you rightly highlight.Liz Rijnenberg: That would be an excellent idea.Q197 Mr Llwyd: That’s a pretty succinct answer.Liz Rijnenberg: It’s not a complicated notion, is it?Q198 Chair: It is also an interesting answer, becauseI think that Mrs Grant would say that she was <strong>the</strong> leadMinister.Liz Rijnenberg: Well, yes.Val Castell: I think that she would also benefit frombeing backed up by people with a clear duty to lead in<strong>the</strong> various different Government Departments.Q199 Mr Llwyd: As a one-time practitioner myself,I am obviously interested in <strong>the</strong> sentencing process.May I ask, Ms Castell, whe<strong>the</strong>r <strong>the</strong>re has been adifference of approach by magistrates in <strong>the</strong> way that<strong>the</strong>y sentence women since <strong>Corston</strong>?Val Castell: There has, in those areas that have hadaccess to alternative sentences, especially in thoseareas that have had <strong>the</strong> intensive alternative to custodypilots running in <strong>the</strong>m. I shall refer to IACs insteadof trotting out <strong>the</strong> full name of intensive alternative tocustody all <strong>the</strong> time.Where you have had <strong>the</strong> IACs running, <strong>the</strong>re has beena very clear lead from <strong>the</strong> probation service to makesure that magistrates know <strong>the</strong> implications of usingcustodial sentences as opposed to alternatives, wherepossible. There has been a great deal of very good workon putting toge<strong>the</strong>r robust alternatives, and magistrateshave had faith in those alternatives and have used<strong>the</strong>m. Where you have not had IACs running, <strong>the</strong>rehas been some use of community sentences instead ofcustodial ones, but that has been limited by <strong>the</strong> fact that<strong>the</strong> community sentences have only been alternativecommunity sentences for women; <strong>the</strong>y have not beencustodial alternatives.We tend to approach sentencing in quite a linear way,and our sentencing guidelines tend to lead us downthis route. It’s low-level risk; it’s final discharge; it’smedium-level; it’s community sentence; it’s over <strong>the</strong>custody threshold. If you have come to <strong>the</strong> point in <strong>the</strong>sentencing guidelines where it says, “This offence isso serious, you’re over <strong>the</strong> custody threshold,” <strong>the</strong>n,when looking for community alternatives, you tend tobe looking for something that is more robust than astandard community option. By and large, even wherewomen’s sentences exist, if all <strong>the</strong>y are offering is astandard community option, that still does not reallygive us all <strong>the</strong> options that we need to look at custodialalternatives.Q200 Mr Llwyd: Would I be right in thinking, forexample—this is something that I have raised before in<strong>the</strong> House—that people who are drug addicted who goon a community sentence will breach, unless <strong>the</strong>y aretaken off drugs to begin with, because of <strong>the</strong>ir chaoticlifestyle. That is inevitable, is it not?Val Castell: I would not say completely inevitable,but it is quite likely. If somebody breaches, it doesnot necessarily mean that <strong>the</strong>y would automaticallygo into custody, because we look very carefully,when somebody comes into court for breach, atwhat probation is telling us on <strong>the</strong> breach report. Ifsomebody is trying but finding it difficult, that is avery different story from somebody who is not tryingat all. If somebody is trying and finding it difficult,we will look to see whe<strong>the</strong>r we can let <strong>the</strong> sentencerun and whe<strong>the</strong>r we can get it completed, and to seewhe<strong>the</strong>r <strong>the</strong>re are ways that we can help with getting itcompleted. Custody very much tends to be a last ditch,if somebody really is not complying.Q201 Nick de Bois: I would like to turn, if I may,to <strong>the</strong> current approach to women <strong>offenders</strong>. Myquestion is directed first to Ms Calderbank—and to MsRijnenberg, if you wish to follow up on this.Can you explain what sort of provision is made by trustsfor women <strong>offenders</strong> serving community sentences inareas without a women’s centre? Is <strong>the</strong>re a notabledifference in levels of performance—or should I sayoutcome?—between areas that have gender-specificservices and those that do not?Liz Calderbank: The answer to that question is <strong>the</strong>same as <strong>the</strong> one before. It is actually very variable, asyou would probably anticipate.Q202 Nick de Bois: May I help? I was sensing thatwe were coming on to that ground. I suppose that <strong>the</strong>question is whe<strong>the</strong>r <strong>the</strong>re is a discernible general shiftbetween <strong>the</strong> two—where <strong>the</strong>re are services or not. Isuspect that you will point out that each area is verydifferent. I suppose that I am looking for a pattern.Liz Rijnenberg: I do not think that we have anystatistical evidence of notable differences in areasthat do not have women’s community centres. Wehave national data in relation to reoffending and shortcustodial sentences, but it is questionable whe<strong>the</strong>r thatwould be comparable across trusts. The importantthing is <strong>the</strong> added value that you get from a women’scommunity centre, because you have a number ofservices all in one place, which is very important.In areas where <strong>the</strong>re are no community centres, <strong>the</strong>probation trusts and local partnerships have donewhat <strong>the</strong>y can to provide <strong>the</strong> best possible service. Forexample, in Swindon in Wiltshire, where <strong>the</strong>re is nowomen’s community project, Barnardo’s runs a serviceat one of <strong>the</strong> family centres, where women can go and