Ev 36 Justice Committee: Evidence29 January 2013 Jacqueline McKenzie, Deborah Cowley, Rachel Halford and Sherry Ashfieldeducation in <strong>the</strong> UK and, because <strong>the</strong>y were withoutstatus, used a false identity to undertake this training.They served very lengthy prison sentences as a resultof this. So I think, if we are looking at reducing <strong>the</strong>overall female prison population, what people go toprison for is one of <strong>the</strong> contributing things that we canlook at.Q173 Nick de Bois: Can I take that example up? Yousaid for a “fairly lengthy” time. Some people mayargue—and some of my constituents may believe—that it is quite hard to get sent to prison <strong>the</strong>se days.So you are saying, basically, that people are going tojail for documentation fraud. What sort of length ofsentences are <strong>the</strong>y getting?Jacqueline McKenzie: We have come across oneperson who was sentenced to 24 months, but usually itis nine to 18 months.Q174 Nick de Bois: But this must be prettysubstantive. Was it on a commercial basis? Were <strong>the</strong>yprofiteering from it?Jacqueline McKenzie: No. I suppose one would saythat perhaps <strong>the</strong>y were deemed to be profiteeringbecause <strong>the</strong>y have got an education at <strong>the</strong> expense of<strong>the</strong> British taxpayer. So <strong>the</strong>re are issues—no one issaying that <strong>the</strong>re aren’t—but <strong>the</strong> main one is: is thisan issue that needs to be dealt with through a custodialsentence?Q175 Nick de Bois: Can I ask you a process question,if I may? Someone who is a foreign national in prisonis likely to be removed from <strong>the</strong> country at <strong>the</strong> end of<strong>the</strong>ir sentence. At what stage does immigration getinvolved and could you see any improvements aroundthat?Jacqueline McKenzie: It varies really. Sometimes, assoon as <strong>the</strong> person goes into prison, <strong>the</strong>y are servedwith a deportation order because, as you know, ifsomeone is sentenced to more than 12 months, an orderfor deportation is automatic, so <strong>the</strong>y start engagingwith immigration lawyers and <strong>the</strong>y are in <strong>the</strong> process.But very often <strong>the</strong>re is confusion about <strong>the</strong> person’sstatus. We have had people served with deportationorders who are actually British nationals, so <strong>the</strong>re areall sorts of confusions, and sometimes it is not until <strong>the</strong>very end of a sentence that somebody is served withimmigration papers.Q176 Nick de Bois: In truth, that is a UK border issuewith men, women and all sorts of people. How doesit impact on women in prison so seriously? Why is itsuch an issue with women in prison?Jacqueline McKenzie: It is a big issue because, first,a lot of those women are eventually released. Veryusually—<strong>the</strong> thing that most people don’t like to hearabout, but usually—<strong>the</strong>y are able to assert <strong>the</strong>ir humanrights and go on to win <strong>the</strong>ir cases. We certainly findthis with <strong>the</strong> cohort we work with. Whe<strong>the</strong>r that is<strong>the</strong> case generally, I don’t know. We probably workwith about 35% to 40% of foreign national women,but we do find a lot of <strong>the</strong>m go on to win <strong>the</strong>ir cases.What you have in <strong>the</strong> process, because <strong>the</strong> system isso lengthy and so complicated, is stress factors. Nacrorecently published a report which showed that <strong>the</strong>rewas increased suicidal ideation with foreign nationalwomen, increased depression and low mood. A lot ofthat is attributed to <strong>the</strong> problems of trying to establishwhe<strong>the</strong>r you are going to be put on a plane back tosomewhere and your children are going to remain incare in <strong>the</strong> UK.Q177 Nick de Bois: I am struggling to understand—and I will not press this any more, but I haveconstituents who have been fighting cases like thiswho are not in prison and I am trying to understand—why this is something of great concern to <strong>the</strong> femaleprison population. It is a concern to lots of peoplewho undergo those stresses. What am I missing herethat makes it such a different problem for someoneincarcerated?Jacqueline McKenzie: They have additional stressesbecause <strong>the</strong>y are incarcerated, I would have thought,and often <strong>the</strong>ir children are put in care as a result of <strong>the</strong>incarceration and <strong>the</strong>y have lost <strong>the</strong>ir homes as a resultof <strong>the</strong>ir incarceration.Nick de Bois: Which are all credible.Jacqueline McKenzie: So <strong>the</strong>re are all sorts ofadditional factors, but your question was specificallyabout foreign national prisoners, so of course thisis multiplied in <strong>the</strong> general population of foreignnationals, but a foreign national prisoner is going tohave <strong>the</strong> additional stress if <strong>the</strong>y have immigrationissues on top of having to serve a sentence for acriminal offence.Nick de Bois: Thank you.Q178 Jeremy Corbyn: This is a question to Jacqui.Thanks for coming to give evidence today. What sortof advice is available routinely for foreign nationalwomen in prison, and, related to that, how often will<strong>the</strong>y move between different prison estates, which canlead to complications on communication?Jacqueline McKenzie: Yes. In terms of <strong>the</strong> qualityof advice, it varies. If I had commented on <strong>the</strong>question about what worked arising out of <strong>the</strong><strong>Corston</strong> report, I think it is <strong>the</strong> coming toge<strong>the</strong>r of<strong>the</strong> <strong>Corston</strong> Independent Funders Coalition, whichenables <strong>the</strong> provision of services in <strong>the</strong> communityto organisations like Hibiscus and many o<strong>the</strong>rs—we are not alone in this—who are able to providequality advice and sign‐posting to women in thatgroup. Generally speaking, most of that group arereliant on immigration solicitors and advisors—<strong>the</strong>OISC‐regulated people—and we see very poor qualityadvice indeed. The problems of staying in <strong>the</strong> prisonestate <strong>after</strong> you have served <strong>the</strong> sentence—that is,being held by <strong>the</strong> immigration service—are oftenprolonged because of poor immigration advice. Thereare instances where people really have reached <strong>the</strong> endof <strong>the</strong> road and perhaps ought to go, but, as a resultof immigration solicitors taking <strong>the</strong>ir money andgiving <strong>the</strong>m false hope and putting in judicial review<strong>after</strong> judicial review, <strong>the</strong>ir time in <strong>the</strong> prison estate isactually prolonged. There is also <strong>the</strong> case of peoplemoving around estates. We have lost touch with clients.I lost touch with clients in my previous incarnation asa lawyer and I have lost touch with clients now that Iam at Hibiscus, so <strong>the</strong> movement around estates is areal problem.
Justice Committee: Evidence Ev 3729 January 2013 Jacqueline McKenzie, Deborah Cowley, Rachel Halford and Sherry AshfieldQ179 Jeremy Corbyn: When you are dealing withwomen who are convicted of drug‐mule offences, doyou have any evidence about how many of <strong>the</strong>m aresubsequently removed to a place of even greater dangerbecause of returning to <strong>the</strong> place <strong>the</strong>y have come from,not under threat necessarily from <strong>the</strong> authorities butunder threat from <strong>the</strong> people that coerced <strong>the</strong>m in <strong>the</strong>first place?Jacqueline McKenzie: We do not have lot of dataabout that. We are going to be collecting some. Weare going to Jamaica next month to look particularlyat Jamaican cohorts, but we have had anecdotal storiesof people under threat and we have heard of one death.But I have to put on record that we have not been ableto substantiate this and will not be able to do so untilnext month.Yasmin Qureshi: May I make a clarification about<strong>the</strong> issue my colleague over <strong>the</strong>re raised about <strong>the</strong>sentencing? It is in <strong>the</strong> sentencing guidelines that, ifyou are in possession of even a forged passport, sixmonths’ imprisonment is <strong>the</strong> starting tariff. It is quitecommon to get six to 12 months in prison for documentoffences.Chair: In that case, I think we can turn to Mr Chishti.Q180 Rehman Chishti: Good morning. Under <strong>the</strong>heading “women and children”, you will be aware that17,240 children were separated from <strong>the</strong>ir mo<strong>the</strong>rsin 2010. Linked to that background, what would afamily‐friendly female custodial estate and regimelook like? There we are—all yours.Deborah Cowley: I will start off with that. The firstthing is that family would not have far to travel. Thefamily would know from <strong>the</strong> beginning where to go andwhat to expect. They would also know that <strong>the</strong>y wereable to ask for help. So <strong>the</strong>re needs to be court‐basedinformation services for families so that <strong>the</strong>y can get<strong>the</strong> help <strong>the</strong>y need. One of <strong>the</strong> big things is that visitingwould be easier in a family‐friendly prison, and if yourfamily is fragmenting that is a difficult thing. Ano<strong>the</strong>rbig thing is that children should be able to visit, and ithas been touched on before. Children who are in caredo get accompanied visits but often <strong>the</strong>y are very few,so it might be twice a year. Children need to see <strong>the</strong>irfamilies often. Also, children have to be accompaniedby an adult right <strong>the</strong> way up to <strong>the</strong> age of 18, so <strong>the</strong>reare big issues in <strong>the</strong> way of children visiting and <strong>the</strong>ycould visit more often if that was taken away.Ano<strong>the</strong>r important thing I want to talk about is thata family‐friendly prison would be one that askedautomatically whe<strong>the</strong>r a prisoner was pregnant whenshe came in. That does not routinely happen at <strong>the</strong>moment. It does in some places, but it does not routinelyhappen. On finding out if a prisoner is pregnant, andalso when she has nearly had <strong>the</strong> baby, <strong>the</strong>re should bea particular provision made. At <strong>the</strong> moment, <strong>the</strong>re isno allowance made in budgets for additional food forpregnant prisoners. There is no arrangement for <strong>the</strong>mto be able to eat frequently. Also, once <strong>the</strong>y have had<strong>the</strong>ir babies, <strong>the</strong>y are expected to go back to work <strong>after</strong>six to eight weeks, which is not in accordance withwhat women who are not in prison would expect and itinterferes with attachment, and <strong>the</strong> whereabouts of thatwork might be very difficult. Actually, anybody whohas had a baby knows that <strong>the</strong>y do not get into a settledroutine till three months. It is a really hard thing. Theseare some of <strong>the</strong> most vulnerable mo<strong>the</strong>rs in <strong>the</strong> countryand I would want to make sure that <strong>the</strong>y were getting<strong>the</strong> equivalent care to very vulnerable mo<strong>the</strong>rs in <strong>the</strong>community.Q181 Rehman Chishti: Can I stop you on that? Ihave raised with <strong>the</strong> Minister <strong>the</strong> issue about whensomebody comes into prison and <strong>the</strong>y have checks formental health, dyslexia and o<strong>the</strong>r health issues, because,unless those issues are clarified, <strong>the</strong> person who is incustody may not be able to communicate as effectivelyas <strong>the</strong>y could, but also <strong>the</strong> issue of pregnancy. Aren’t<strong>the</strong>re any checks, like all <strong>the</strong> o<strong>the</strong>r health checks thatare taken as soon as you go into custody? Doesn’t thattake place at <strong>the</strong> moment?Deborah Cowley: No.Q182 Rehman Chishti: Would anyone else like tocomment, or should I move on to my second question?Sherry Ashfield: I would like to add to that by sayingthat, if we are going to have family‐friendly prisons, wealso have to accept perhaps <strong>the</strong> less palatable aspectsabout risk and safeguarding. One of <strong>the</strong> concerns thatI have—and I have seen it coming out in <strong>the</strong> 2011report on female <strong>offenders</strong> in <strong>the</strong> community—is <strong>the</strong>lack of attention that is being given to safeguardingissues right across <strong>the</strong> estate and an assumption thatmo<strong>the</strong>rs will be able to parent very effectively. A lot of<strong>the</strong>m can, but <strong>the</strong>re are some mo<strong>the</strong>rs who will presenta range of different risks to <strong>the</strong>ir children, both in <strong>the</strong>community and while in custody. That may mean<strong>the</strong>y need additional help to address some of thoseissues, but what we are generally seeing is that <strong>the</strong>reis a lack of awareness about <strong>the</strong> safeguarding dutythat all <strong>the</strong> agencies, not just <strong>the</strong> statutory agenciesbut <strong>the</strong> voluntary and third‐sector agencies, have inrelation to ensuring that all children are kept safe. Thatmeans looking at <strong>the</strong>ir emotional safety as well as <strong>the</strong>irphysical safety.Q183 Chair: You are dealing with female sex<strong>offenders</strong>, among o<strong>the</strong>rs, aren’t you?Sherry Ashfield: Yes.Q184 Chair: The numbers are not all that large as awhole, but <strong>the</strong>y do seem to get ra<strong>the</strong>r ignored in all <strong>the</strong>discussion about provision for women in prisons.Sherry Ashfield: Absolutely, and <strong>the</strong> safeguarding issueis not just about <strong>the</strong> female sex <strong>offenders</strong>. The 2011report by one of your colleagues, “Equal but different”,was just looking at female <strong>offenders</strong> per se and one of<strong>the</strong> things <strong>the</strong>y identified in <strong>the</strong>ir review of <strong>the</strong> prisons,<strong>the</strong> probation service and record keeping was that <strong>the</strong>rewas a distinct lack of detail paid to safeguarding issues.In almost half of <strong>the</strong> cases that <strong>the</strong>y looked at <strong>the</strong>rewere safeguarding issues in relation to children thatwere not being addressed, and some of those issuesrelated to <strong>the</strong> mo<strong>the</strong>rs <strong>the</strong>mselves. So, yes, <strong>the</strong>re areparticular issues we are very aware of because of <strong>the</strong>high‐risk category that we work with, but right across<strong>the</strong> female estate, working with female <strong>offenders</strong>, it isan issue that is quite unpalatable and very often one wedon’t want to think about.