Women offenders: after the Corston Report - United Kingdom ...

Ev 36 Justice Committee: Evidence29 January 2013 Jacqueline McKenzie, Deborah Cowley, Rachel Halford and Sherry Ashfieldeducation in the UK and, because they were withoutstatus, used a false identity to undertake this training.They served very lengthy prison sentences as a resultof this. So I think, if we are looking at reducing theoverall female prison population, what people go toprison for is one of the contributing things that we canlook at.Q173 Nick de Bois: Can I take that example up? Yousaid for a “fairly lengthy” time. Some people mayargue—and some of my constituents may believe—that it is quite hard to get sent to prison these days.So you are saying, basically, that people are going tojail for documentation fraud. What sort of length ofsentences are they getting?Jacqueline McKenzie: We have come across oneperson who was sentenced to 24 months, but usually itis nine to 18 months.Q174 Nick de Bois: But this must be prettysubstantive. Was it on a commercial basis? Were theyprofiteering from it?Jacqueline McKenzie: No. I suppose one would saythat perhaps they were deemed to be profiteeringbecause they have got an education at the expense ofthe British taxpayer. So there are issues—no one issaying that there aren’t—but the main one is: is thisan issue that needs to be dealt with through a custodialsentence?Q175 Nick de Bois: Can I ask you a process question,if I may? Someone who is a foreign national in prisonis likely to be removed from the country at the end oftheir sentence. At what stage does immigration getinvolved and could you see any improvements aroundthat?Jacqueline McKenzie: It varies really. Sometimes, assoon as the person goes into prison, they are servedwith a deportation order because, as you know, ifsomeone is sentenced to more than 12 months, an orderfor deportation is automatic, so they start engagingwith immigration lawyers and they are in the process.But very often there is confusion about the person’sstatus. We have had people served with deportationorders who are actually British nationals, so there areall sorts of confusions, and sometimes it is not until thevery end of a sentence that somebody is served withimmigration papers.Q176 Nick de Bois: In truth, that is a UK border issuewith men, women and all sorts of people. How doesit impact on women in prison so seriously? Why is itsuch an issue with women in prison?Jacqueline McKenzie: It is a big issue because, first,a lot of those women are eventually released. Veryusually—the thing that most people don’t like to hearabout, but usually—they are able to assert their humanrights and go on to win their cases. We certainly findthis with the cohort we work with. Whether that isthe case generally, I don’t know. We probably workwith about 35% to 40% of foreign national women,but we do find a lot of them go on to win their cases.What you have in the process, because the system isso lengthy and so complicated, is stress factors. Nacrorecently published a report which showed that therewas increased suicidal ideation with foreign nationalwomen, increased depression and low mood. A lot ofthat is attributed to the problems of trying to establishwhether you are going to be put on a plane back tosomewhere and your children are going to remain incare in the UK.Q177 Nick de Bois: I am struggling to understand—and I will not press this any more, but I haveconstituents who have been fighting cases like thiswho are not in prison and I am trying to understand—why this is something of great concern to the femaleprison population. It is a concern to lots of peoplewho undergo those stresses. What am I missing herethat makes it such a different problem for someoneincarcerated?Jacqueline McKenzie: They have additional stressesbecause they are incarcerated, I would have thought,and often their children are put in care as a result of theincarceration and they have lost their homes as a resultof their incarceration.Nick de Bois: Which are all credible.Jacqueline McKenzie: So there are all sorts ofadditional factors, but your question was specificallyabout foreign national prisoners, so of course thisis multiplied in the general population of foreignnationals, but a foreign national prisoner is going tohave the additional stress if they have immigrationissues on top of having to serve a sentence for acriminal offence.Nick de Bois: Thank you.Q178 Jeremy Corbyn: This is a question to Jacqui.Thanks for coming to give evidence today. What sortof advice is available routinely for foreign nationalwomen in prison, and, related to that, how often willthey move between different prison estates, which canlead to complications on communication?Jacqueline McKenzie: Yes. In terms of the qualityof advice, it varies. If I had commented on thequestion about what worked arising out of theCorston report, I think it is the coming together ofthe Corston Independent Funders Coalition, whichenables the provision of services in the communityto organisations like Hibiscus and many others—we are not alone in this—who are able to providequality advice and sign‐posting to women in thatgroup. Generally speaking, most of that group arereliant on immigration solicitors and advisors—theOISC‐regulated people—and we see very poor qualityadvice indeed. The problems of staying in the prisonestate after you have served the sentence—that is,being held by the immigration service—are oftenprolonged because of poor immigration advice. Thereare instances where people really have reached the endof the road and perhaps ought to go, but, as a resultof immigration solicitors taking their money andgiving them false hope and putting in judicial reviewafter judicial review, their time in the prison estate isactually prolonged. There is also the case of peoplemoving around estates. We have lost touch with clients.I lost touch with clients in my previous incarnation asa lawyer and I have lost touch with clients now that Iam at Hibiscus, so the movement around estates is areal problem.