Women offenders: after the Corston Report - United Kingdom ...

Justice Committee: Evidence Ev 2929 January 2013 Juliet Lyon CBE, Frances Crook OBE and Clive MartinJuliet said, the Government misconstrued the Corstonrecommendations as having have to build extraunits on top of the prisons they already had, withoutrecognising that the idea was to close the and end upwith small units, rather like we currently have forchildren. The local authority-run units for children—are indeed expensive, but if we replicated that structurefor women we would probably only need places for50 to 80, maximum 100, women in those units andthe other 3,900 could be released and managed in thecommunity perfectly safely.Q145 Chair: With 50 to 100, were you talkingabout—Frances Crook: I meant women in custody.Q146 Chair: Places or units?Frances Crook: Places. For public safety reasons,you would only need 50 to 100 places for women incustody in England and Wales.The other reason that the last Government failed toact, on these recommendations and this change waslack of political courage. I think they were afraid of apolitical backlash. It does not have to be the case; youdo not have to get a political backlash. If you look atwhat is happening in parts of America at the moment,where the Republican party is leading on radical prisonreform programmes, closing prisons and investing incommunity—and it has been led by the Republicanright—it is possible to lead the public and talk aboutprison reduction in quite different terms and take thepublic with you. I am hoping that there will be strongerleadership given by this Government about reductionsin the use of prison, which is already happening withthe men but not with the women. I hope it is going tohappen with the women as well.Q147 Mr Llwyd: Ms Lyon, you referred tointernational comparators in terms of smaller units.Would you like to expand on that?Juliet Lyon: I think you have Women in Prison givingevidence to you later this morning and because theyhave done this review of the small custodial units itwould be best if they were able to respond becausetheir document covers a number of examples. But,essentially, what we know is that we here in Englandand Wales are particularly keen on locking up womencompared to our international neighbours, especiallyour European neighbours, and there have been anumber of examples over the years. For example, therewas a unit in Germany that was visited by Woman’sHour, I remember, where prison staff worked alongsidewelfare staff. The women were curfewed to return tothat centre in the evening. The children could livethere, so they were able to attend school. It was kind ofa transitional place, a halfway house, between a prisonand being wholly out in the community. It appeared tobe working very well. It was profiled by Woman’s Houryears ago in 2001. So there have been efforts to try andshow a different way of managing women, not makingexcuses for crimes, not dismissing crimes, but a way ofreducing reoffending.Q148 Mr Llwyd: I think it is common ground thatthe current situation is not appropriate in terms of thefemale prison estate, but do you accept there have beensome improvements of late?Juliet Lyon: I accept that, as things stand, womensometimes have their lives saved by going to prison.We could step from here into Holloway now and wewould see women arriving in the most terrible state,women who have been sleeping on the streets, womenwho have been trafficked into offending, women whoare so rattling with drugs, or for whom binge drinkinghas become something that is so habitual and theyare in such a terrible state, that that period of time inprison will stabilise and sometimes save their lives andimprove their health. It is a terrible indictment that forsome women prison is a safer place than any optionsthey have in the community. Often, when I talk towomen in prison they are talking about whether theycan escape domestic violence. There was a self‐helpgroup set up at Styal prison, for example, by thewomen to try to discuss ways they could escape goingback into violent relationships.I would not ever underestimate either what prison cando in the current circumstances or indeed what staff tryand do. The defining difference between what happensin a large, closed women’s prison and a women’scentre, which you can see if you visit a women’scentre, is that women in a women’s centre have to takeresponsibility for their lives. They are given supportand encouragement and often probation supervision ifthey are on a court order, but the whole requirementis on them to change their lives. They have to get outof debt, have to look after their children and have toaddress addictions or get the mental healthcare theyneed. As I said, all of that is with support, but theyare taking responsibility; it is in their hands. Womenin prison are infantilised. They often behave like girls,and they are often treated like children or young girls.Q149 Mr Llwyd: What discussions have you hadwith the Ministry of Justice in relation to the ongoingreview recently announced of the female custodialestate?Juliet Lyon: We have had a brief discussion and we arehoping that next week, when we are seeing the officialwho is leading for women, who is coming to thePrison Reform Trust offices, that we will have furtherdiscussion. We are not clear who is leading that review.We are clear that it is intended to be radical, that weare not just talking about, “Let’s look at the women’sprisons and where they are situated,” but rathergeographically what is needed across the country,which I think would involve re-roleing or closingestablishments, so that there would be a more sensiblepicture in terms of location. It is very important thatthat review is joined up with the potential for and theactual provision of women’s centres and other facilitiesfor women that are provided by Health.Q150 Mr Llwyd: Location is a crucial issue, isn’t it,because of the proximity to family and so on?Juliet Lyon: Absolutely. You are right, but the otherthing, which is a very sad truth, is that women will trekacross the country to take children to see their dads—they will go miles—and you meet them in visitorcentres and many have travelled all day. You can visita women’s prison and be in a visitor centre and it is