Ev 26 Justice Committee: EvidenceTuesday 29 January 2013Members present:Sir Alan Beith (Chair)Steve BrineRehman ChishtiJeremy CorbynNick de BoisMr Elfyn LlwydAndy McDonaldGraham StringerYasmin Qureshi________________Examination of WitnessesWitnesses: Juliet Lyon CBE, Director, Prison Reform Trust, Frances Crook OBE, Director, The HowardLeague for Penal Reform, and Clive Martin, Director, Clinks, gave evidence.Chair: Ms Lyon from <strong>the</strong> Prison Reform Trust, MsCrook from <strong>the</strong> Howard League and Mr Martin fromClinks, welcome. At least two of you are quite regularvisitors to us, but you are as welcome as ever for <strong>the</strong>help you can give us in our inquiry on women <strong>offenders</strong>.I am just going to see if <strong>the</strong>re are any interests to bedeclared.Mr Llwyd: I should declare that I am a member of <strong>the</strong>Howard League.Q138 Chair: Unless anyone else has anything toadd, that is probably <strong>the</strong> only relevant interest to bedeclared.To start us off, could you give us a concise view of<strong>the</strong> progress that has been made in implementing <strong>the</strong><strong>Corston</strong> recommendations?Frances Crook: Perhaps I could give an overview aboutmy concerns as to what is happening at <strong>the</strong> moment.There was a great push towards trying to implement<strong>the</strong> <strong>Corston</strong> recommendations, particularly with <strong>the</strong>funding for <strong>the</strong> women’s centres, <strong>the</strong> establishment ofwomen’s centres in <strong>the</strong> community and <strong>the</strong> politicalsupport for <strong>the</strong> women’s centres, both at a local leveland national level, and <strong>the</strong> organisation that was set upto co‐ordinate <strong>the</strong>m. That was all good grounding but ithas stalled recently. My concern is that <strong>the</strong>re is supportat ministerial level, but I am less convinced that <strong>the</strong>re issupport at Secretary of State level. We are particularlyworried, of course, about <strong>the</strong> funding. If women are tomanage in <strong>the</strong> community, helped to change and livelaw‐abiding lives and not come into contact with <strong>the</strong>criminal justice system, we need to put that supportnetwork in at a local level, where <strong>the</strong>y can get accessto <strong>the</strong> range of services that <strong>the</strong>y need to deal with <strong>the</strong>irfamilies, debt, mental health, drug addiction, alcoholaddiction and <strong>the</strong>ir homelessness. That is where <strong>the</strong>women’s centres come in. If we do not have supportfor <strong>the</strong>se centres, we are in real trouble.We can see that over <strong>the</strong> past year or so that, <strong>the</strong> prisonpopulation has dropped by around 3,000—which ismuch to be welcomed and saves <strong>the</strong> public a lot ofmoney, unnecessary money. This allows <strong>the</strong> Secretaryof State to close prisons, which will of course savequite a lot of money—however <strong>the</strong> women’s prisonpopulation has not fallen at <strong>the</strong> same rate as <strong>the</strong> men’s.Unless <strong>the</strong>re is real leadership given at a national level,we will fail to see <strong>the</strong> real changes in practice affectingso many women and <strong>the</strong>ir families across <strong>the</strong> country.Juliet Lyon: I was pleased to be a member of <strong>the</strong><strong>Corston</strong> review, following <strong>the</strong> deaths of <strong>the</strong> six youngwomen at Styal. I had high hopes at that point that<strong>the</strong> <strong>Corston</strong> review would be <strong>the</strong> pivotal route tochanging what had been a very disappointing responseto previous inquiries. Just briefly, in 2000, <strong>the</strong> PrisonReform Trust published <strong>the</strong> independent Wedderburnreview, which had similar recommendations to thoseof Baroness <strong>Corston</strong>. Following that, <strong>the</strong>re wasFawcett; <strong>the</strong>re was a Cabinet Office review and a jointinspectorate <strong>the</strong>matic report. There were a number ofreviews, all of which said pretty much <strong>the</strong> same thing,that it would be perfectly possible in relation to publicsafety to reduce <strong>the</strong> number of women going to prison,that <strong>the</strong> emphasis should be on proportionality insentencing and fairness and <strong>the</strong>re should be options in<strong>the</strong> community, bearing in mind that most women werenon‐violent, petty persistent <strong>offenders</strong> in <strong>the</strong> main andthat many had primary care responsibilities for <strong>the</strong>irchildren.As Frances has said already, myriad needs had to bemet, o<strong>the</strong>rwise <strong>the</strong> offending was likely to continue.So when Baroness <strong>Corston</strong> undertook her review,particularly given <strong>the</strong> reason that it was brought intobeing, we had hopes. After it was submitted to <strong>the</strong>Government, <strong>the</strong>re was a very long period of timebefore <strong>the</strong>re was any formal response. There<strong>after</strong>, <strong>the</strong>Government said that, in principle, <strong>the</strong>y accepted—Ithink it was—41 of <strong>the</strong> 43 recommendations. Butapart from some very distinct changes, which I drawattention to, <strong>the</strong> response has been slow. One changewas stopping routine strip searching, in recognition of<strong>the</strong> number of women who had been sexually abusedor experienced domestic violence. Routine stripsearching was seen to be no longer acceptable. Thatwas a reform that was possible because of <strong>the</strong> <strong>Corston</strong>review and that was important.We <strong>the</strong>n thought that Government would move on tosome of <strong>the</strong> wider recommendations, in particular <strong>the</strong>blueprint for reform, which is included in Baroness<strong>Corston</strong>’s review, which made it absolutely clearthat you needed leadership and accountability, apreparedness to work across Government Departments,and that <strong>the</strong> solutions would not all be found within <strong>the</strong>prison system, or indeed even within <strong>the</strong> Ministry ofJustice. In particular, she drew attention to <strong>the</strong> healthneeds of women, which we would say are paramountin relation to mental health need, substance misuse andso forth. The response has been disappointingly slow,<strong>the</strong> leadership has been largely absent and <strong>the</strong>re is <strong>the</strong>kind of feeling of, “Accountability—so what?”
Justice Committee: Evidence Ev 2729 January 2013 Juliet Lyon CBE, Frances Crook OBE and Clive MartinThere was a commitment last year by Lord McNallyto introduce a strategy on women <strong>offenders</strong>, which wewelcomed. That is still awaited. I understand that <strong>the</strong>Government want to get it right, but at <strong>the</strong> same timeit is very disappointing because with each month orday that passes more women go to prison who do notneed to. Compare it briefly to <strong>the</strong> Scottish report byElish Angiolini, <strong>the</strong> former Lord Advocate in Scotland,who has led a Commission on <strong>Women</strong> Offenders inScotland. She reported that <strong>the</strong> Justice Secretaryresponded immediately. If I could just read <strong>the</strong> lastrecommendation under “Making it work”, what sherequired and what actually happened was that “TheCabinet Secretary for Justice reports to <strong>the</strong> ScottishParliament within six months of <strong>the</strong> publication of thisreport, and annually <strong>the</strong>re<strong>after</strong>, on <strong>the</strong> steps taken toimplement <strong>the</strong> recommendations in this report.” Thatis indeed what is happening in Scotland.Chair: Thank you very much. Mr Martin.Clive Martin: I would agree with both my colleaguesbut would add that I think <strong>Corston</strong> achieved threethings in addition to <strong>the</strong> focus on women. One was<strong>the</strong> <strong>Corston</strong> Independent Funders Coalition, which issymbolic of a civic and Government coalition to tacklea wide social problem. That included investment,buy‐in and a will to look jointly at an issue. That wasa huge success of <strong>Corston</strong> and that has gone verywobbly. In some ways—without wanting to use toostrong a word—it could be seen as almost a breachof trust between Government and civic society, whereyou had an agreement on something and how we couldprogress.The second is about <strong>the</strong> women’s centres <strong>the</strong>mselvesin terms of what <strong>the</strong> criminal justice system was tryingto do, which was almost to stop <strong>the</strong> flow of peopleinto <strong>the</strong> criminal justice system. The women’s centreswere <strong>the</strong> best bet we have of doing that so far. That isnow, of course, in jeopardy with <strong>the</strong> combination of areduction in funding and confusion about <strong>the</strong> fundingmechanisms by which <strong>the</strong>y will exist.The third thing I would say is that <strong>the</strong> whole role of<strong>the</strong> voluntary sector which <strong>Corston</strong> promoted andencouraged was, in our view, absolutely essential.Many women <strong>offenders</strong> have a bad and negativeexperience of statutory services—that is part of <strong>the</strong>reason <strong>the</strong>y are not really engaged with <strong>the</strong>m—andthis offered a chance for <strong>the</strong>re to be decent services,decency for women. Those three factors seem to havedissipated over <strong>the</strong> last 18 months. Our feeling is thatprogress is certainly stalling very badly. The engine isstalling.Q139 Steve Brine: As to <strong>the</strong> “TransformingRehabilitation” paper—and I am guessing everyonehas read it and keeps it under <strong>the</strong>ir pillows at night—what is your view, and we will start with Juliet Lyon,of <strong>the</strong> implications of <strong>the</strong> proposals in that paper forany forthcoming strategy on women <strong>offenders</strong>? Thereis at least one paragraph in <strong>the</strong> document that relates tofemale <strong>offenders</strong>, which you could say is a bad thing,but you could also say is a good thing because maybe<strong>the</strong>y are keeping <strong>the</strong>ir powder dry. What is your viewon <strong>the</strong> document?Juliet Lyon: I think <strong>the</strong> document itself is mixed.What we do welcome is an emphasis on rehabilitation.That is hugely important. In particular in relationto women <strong>offenders</strong>, I think <strong>the</strong>re are one or twounintended consequences that <strong>the</strong> Government needto be mindful of before <strong>the</strong>y bring anything intoplace. The proposal, for example, to have supervisionand support for people, even those serving shortsentences, will disproportionately apply to womenbecause, disproportionately, <strong>the</strong>y do serve very shortsentences. I suppose, because all <strong>the</strong> major reports andwork that has been done that I have referred to earliersignificantly say that <strong>the</strong> solutions do not all lie withinprison, <strong>the</strong>re are two risks. One is that <strong>the</strong> courts willfeel encouraged that <strong>the</strong>y can send women to prisonknowing that, even though <strong>the</strong>y are serving a veryshort time and <strong>the</strong>re will be massive disruption andseparation from family, <strong>the</strong>y will <strong>the</strong>n get <strong>the</strong> supportand supervision <strong>the</strong>y need. That is essentially usingcriminal justice as a gateway to <strong>the</strong> kind of treatmentand support <strong>the</strong>y have needed in <strong>the</strong> past. That is a riskthat needs to be mitigated in some way.The o<strong>the</strong>r thing is that, in terms of <strong>the</strong> support andsupervision, it comes with a bit of a price in that <strong>the</strong>rewill be an issue about compliance so that, if womenbreach a particular requirement, <strong>the</strong>n <strong>the</strong>y may befur<strong>the</strong>r taken through <strong>the</strong> justice system and end upserving more time behind bars. I think it is a mixedblessing, although, in principle, for anyone who needsto go to prison for whatever length of time because<strong>the</strong> courts deem it essential, having support andsupervision <strong>after</strong>wards is good. So that is one area thatis potentially a bit problematic.The o<strong>the</strong>r area is probation itself and <strong>the</strong> proposal tofragment <strong>the</strong> service. At lot of <strong>the</strong> women’s centresI have seen—and I was at one last week with <strong>the</strong>Minister, Helen Grant, and her officials, <strong>the</strong> ISISCentre in Gloucester—<strong>the</strong> contribution of probation isreally significant. The very good centre in Bristol isrun by probation. There is probation in <strong>the</strong> Calderdalecentre. Again, <strong>the</strong> partnership between probation and<strong>the</strong> women’s centre is what makes it so strong andeffective. I do not think sufficient thought has beengiven to <strong>the</strong> particular role that different probationtrusts have been playing in relation to <strong>the</strong> developmentof <strong>the</strong> most effective women’s centres. There arespecific things that are going to need attention.Q140 Steve Brine: From what you have said, doI take it that you say “fragment” but o<strong>the</strong>rs may say“introduce new providers with new ideas that can getdifferent results” because <strong>the</strong> status quo is clearly notgreat? With probation leading, if two probation trustsdecide to work toge<strong>the</strong>r, pool resources and introducenew providers into it, why is that “fragment” and not“improve”?Juliet Lyon: It is always important to look to innovateand you should not just accept that things are as <strong>the</strong>y are,but community sentences in general are outperformingshort prison sentences by a factor of 8.3%, so nearly10% better already. It always seems to me that if <strong>the</strong>Government has a success on its hands it should lookto build on that success ra<strong>the</strong>r than try and dismantlesomething. So why not try and make sure that all <strong>the</strong>probation trusts and services are up to <strong>the</strong> highestpossible standard of <strong>the</strong> very best ones? Of course I amnot saying do not introduce providers, but <strong>the</strong>re is <strong>the</strong>