Women offenders: after the Corston Report - United Kingdom ...

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Ev 8 Justice Committee: Evidence18 December 2012 Rt Hon Baroness Corston and Liz Hogarth OBEQ26 Jeremy Corbyn: Could you explain how itworks in Scotland?Baroness Corston: The Scottish Executive have fundedthe 218 Centre in Glasgow. It is a city centre premises.Women can self-refer or they can be referred by GPs,social workers, or schools, if girls start truanting. Theyhave one floor that is secure, so women who are notable to leave the centre, who are there by order of thecourt, can be held. Staff from the centre go into thecourt on a regular basis whenever a woman is comingbefore the sheriff court. They are entirely accepted bythe court as professionals, who can make judgmentsand recommendations about the most appropriate wayto deal with a woman who is coming before the court.The court now, as I understand it, accepts absolutelythe professionalism and integrity of the people who runthat centre—and uses it routinely.I don’t know whether the Scottish Executive have donean evaluation. Certainly, when I was there and I metthe women, I found the whole thing very impressiveand moving. It was not necessarily a cheap option interms of setting it up, but the recent report by DameElish Angiolini—which points in almost exactlythe same direction as the recommendations I madefive years ago—has been easier to make in Scotlandbecause of the experience they have had in places likethe 218 Centre, which has been entirely beneficial. Atthe moment Scotland are leading the way.Q27 Jeremy Corbyn: We had a brief visit to Denmarkand Norway, mainly in respect of youth justice, but theinteresting thing discussed with the prison authoritiesthere was that there were timed opportunities to go toprison, often delayed sentences. That meant that theprisoners concerned did not lose their jobs and didnot lose their homes. It seems one of the problems,particularly for women prisoners on short sentences,is what you described earlier, where they lose theirjob and their home, and life is a complete disaster asa result of an often quite minor misdemeanour. Wouldyou want a change in the whole process of securinghousing accommodation where possible so that womenprisoners did not lose their homes on short sentences?Baroness Corston: Absolutely. If you spend any timein a women’s prison, it is very difficult to have aconversation with women prisoners; they don’t reallyhave much in the way of life skills. But when youask them, “What is it that you want”, we know thatthe holy grail of the Prison Service, for prisoners, isemployability. For women, it is somewhere to live. Ialways ask the question, “What is your priority?” Timeand again, I heard the heartbreaking lament, “I justwant somewhere for me and my kids.” In Scotland,it is, “I just want somewhere for me and my wains.”They come out of prison and family reunification isimpossible, because only 5% of the children of womenprisoners are looked after in the family home by thefather or by the male of the household. When a mangoes to prison, there is usually a woman to keep thehome fires burning. If a man wants to switch off fromfamily, which he should not when he is in prison, it ispossible. But it is not for women; their children aredispersed and reunification is frequently impossible.Q28 Jeremy Corbyn: I have a very quick lastquestion. Do you have any hard evidence of the rateof reoffending for people who go to women’s centrescompared with prison?Baroness Corston: What I would like to see from thisstrategy is an indication of what should be commonindicators for all women centres for success, because atthe moment they are all gathering evidence but they areall gathering different evidence that they thought aboutthemselves, which makes comparison impossible. Thisis another thing that is crucial to the strategy. Set outwhat the common standards should be.If I can give you one example, there is the ISIS centre inGloucester. Ask them for the figures that they have aboutthe women who have come through that centre. Thereoffending rate is minuscule, but it would be impossibleto make that comparison with other centres because theyare all doing their own thing. Within this strategy, whatwould be useful—and we have been waiting for nearlya year or two years, I suppose—is an indication to thosecentres of the kind of evidence that they should gatherin order to show their effectiveness, to Parliament and tothe public, for the money that they spend. If that happens,we would realise that these people do extraordinary workin supporting these women and stopping their childrenspiralling into the kind of antisocial behaviour with whichwe are all too familiar.Q29 Chair: We are very grateful for your evidencethis morning. Can I just check with you whether youare being involved by Ministers currently, in the currentGovernment, in taking any of these things forward?Baroness Corston: No. Lord McNally asked to see meon Monday of last week, because last March I movedan amendment to the Legal Aid, Sentencing andPunishment of Offenders Bill in the House of Lords,calling for a women’s strategy, saying that, if we didhave one and there was reporting to Parliament, wecould judge the Government’s effectiveness. That hasgone, and there has never been a strategy since the lastgeneral election. The vote there was tied 217 to 217,unfortunately, and, given the House of Lords procedure,it meant it was lost. The Minister said to me afterwards,“Don’t worry, we will have a strategy.” That was lastMarch. Last Monday he said to me, “There is going tobe a strategy, Jean”, but, with respect, I am now notholding my breath. What I find distressing is the timethat has been wasted and the momentum that has beenlost. I do have some confidence that Helen Grant, whois the new Minister and, who like me, practised as afamily lawyer—Chair: And a former member of this Committee.Baroness Corston: Good. I am hoping that she will begiven the support, which, as a Parliamentary Under-Secretary, she is going to need from her Secretary ofState to put together, publish and implement a strategy,because, if that happens, then women who work inthese centres all over the country and, of course, theIndependent Funders’ Coalition, will have an ideawhere the Government want them to go.Chair: Thank you very much indeed. We have to gointo private session, although there are some peoplewho are going to join us in that session who I think arealready in the public seats. So thank you very much foryour evidence this morning.
Justice Committee: Evidence Ev 9Examination of WitnessesWitnesses: A, B, C, D 1 and Kate Johnson gave evidence.Chair: 1 Thank you very much for coming in to helpus today. As you have seen because most of you werehere through the previous session, we are just startingto look at how women are dealt with in the criminaljustice system. I will just explain who we are and thenperhaps you can tell us who you are. I will start on thatside of the room.Rehman Chishti: Certainly. I am a Member ofParliament for Gillingham in Kent.Jeremy Corbyn: Jeremy Corbyn, MP for IslingtonNorth and a member of this Committee doing thisinquiry into women in prison. Thank you for comingtoday.Seema Malhotra: I am Seema Malhotra. I am theMember of Parliament for Feltham and Heston, whichis in west London.Andy McDonald: I am Andy McDonald. I am a brandnewMP from Middlesbrough, so I find these places asdaunting as you do.Mr Llwyd: My name is Elfyn Llwyd. I am a Memberof Parliament from north Wales, and before I waselected in 1992 I did criminal and family work, both asa solicitor and for the Bar.Chair: I am Alan Beith. I am the Chairman of theCommittee. I am the Member of Parliament for aconstituency on the border of England and Scotland,Berwick‐upon‐Tweed.Nick Walker: I am Nick Walker. I am the Clerk orsecretary of the Committee.Gemma Buckland: I am Gemma Buckland. I am apolicy specialist on the Committee and I am supportingthe Committee in this inquiry.Mr Buckland: I am Robert Buckland, no relationto Gemma. I am MP for Swindon. Before I becameelected in 2010, I was a barrister, prosecuting anddefending in the Crown court and often representingwomen offenders. I also sit as a part‐time judge in theCrown court, usually in the Birmingham area.Steve Brine: Hello, I am Steve Brine. I am a Memberof Parliament for Winchester in Hampshire.Q30 Chair: Let us start from that end and work along.Kate Johnson: I am Kate Johnson. I work for Womenin Prison at the Women’s Support Centre in Surrey, asa specialist substance misuse worker.D: I am D from Women in Prison.C: I am C, and I have had two experiences of prison,one 10 years ago and one this year, for fairly minormisdemeanours associated with mental health issues.B: My name is B. I am coming here from RevolvingDoors and I have been in prison three times.A: I am A. I am from Kent and I have just got out ofprison after serving an 18-year sentence. I have onlybeen out two and a half weeks.Q31 Chair: Can I just tell you that the acoustics inthe room are not that good, so you will have to speakup a bit? A set a splendid example there; we could hearprecisely what she said. We will all need to do that aswell, just to make sure.1Names Redacted for publication. Redactions are also signifiedthus “[...]”Was any help offered to any of you with the things thatmay have led to you getting involved in crime, beforeyou got involved in the criminal justice system? Wasthere any point at which you were offered help thatcould make a difference?C: I started offending a long time ago, when I don’tthink mental health services were as widespread andas well funded as they perhaps are now. I certainlyhad no help and no support, and I was too afraid anddidn’t want to discuss some of the personal issues thatI had that were linked to my offending in public court,mainly for fear of getting in the local paper. So I didn’taccess any help.Q32 Chair: What sort of help might have made adifference to any of you, if you look back and think,“If only somebody had done this or said that”?B: With me, it would have been housing—then Iwouldn’t have moved in with drug dealers—andcounselling.C: Counselling and mentoring for me.Q33 Chair: Somebody said mentoring.C: Me.Q34 Chair: Does anybody else feel there is somethingthat would have made a difference and might havestopped you getting involved in crime, or continuing?A: Before I went to prison, I was actually seeing amental health worker at the outpatients’. I asked himfor help; he just gave me anti-depressants and sent meaway. Whether the system has changed outside now ornot I’m still quite unaware, to be honest.B: Also, drug treatment; better drug support aroundthat, because I am involved in groups now that reallydo a lot of peer support, and that has really helped me.Q35 Chair: You have been to a drug treatment centre.B: Yes; I have been in drug treatment for years.Q36 Mr Buckland: You said something about peersupport. Is that where people have been through thesame experience?B: Yes. That has really, really helped me a lot.Q37 Mr Buckland: Because they have walked inyour shoes, have they not?B: Definitely. That is what has helped me turn thingsaround, definitely.C: I am now engaged with the probation service. Thereis a big programme around peer mentoring, which isvery successful. For women it is fairly new, but it iscertainly very good.Q38 Mr Buckland: C, I read your biography, andI really liked it when you said that you were neitherquite mad nor altogether bad. That sums up, certainly,my experience of the criminal justice system. I havemet lots of people with mental health problems, somebad people, but often very sad people as well. Perhapstrying to get other people with those experiences towork more in the system will help people in all yourpositions to rehabilitate.
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