Women offenders: after the Corston Report - United Kingdom ...

Ev 2 Justice Committee: Evidence18 December 2012 Rt Hon Baroness Corston and Liz Hogarth OBEofficials were suddenly required to be there and tomake change happen. It was a huge difference. That,coupled with the support of the Gender Equality Dutyas well, just meant the whole profile took off in a hugeway.Q3 Chair: What about NOMS as an organisation?Was that brought into this effectively or not?Liz Hogarth: It was. I have to be honest and say that,originally, I was part of NOMS within the Women’sPolicy Team and moved from NOMS to MOJ. Ithink NOMS did struggle because they were veryconscious of, and in those days were very focused on,imprisonment, and that is where the 5% mantra camefrom. There was a big shift. The difficulty for NOMS,though, is that their remit is offenders. Therefore,it was not within their remit to take on board andunderstand the agenda where we were trying to workwith Jean’s approach, which was to try and cut offwomen at risk of offending getting sucked into thecriminal justice system. Then and now, there are stilldifficulties around that for them because it is not withintheir normal day‐to‐day work.Q4 Chair: What was disappointing?Baroness Corston: The biggest disappointment for mewas the failure to accept the argument that I advancedfor small custodial units for women. There are only 13women’s prisons in England; there aren’t any in Wales,fortunately. If a woman lives in Truro and is sent toprison, the nearest prison is north of Bristol. The notionthat her children could be taken to visit her, given theprofile of women offenders, who are generally poor, islaughable. That break is catastrophic, and a significantnumber of the children of women prisoners end up inprison. A woman whom I met in Styal had just givenbirth. She herself had been born there.In view of the huge emotional and, indeed, publicsector cost of these 13 big prisons, I thought thatsmall local custodial units, which could be serviced bypeople who were not necessarily fixed on site but theycould service two in adjoining counties, for example,would work. I had seen it work when I went to Dublin.There is a centre in Dublin called Dóchas, which isIrish for “hope”. It is in Dublin, in the city centre, andit turns women’s lives around, as indeed does the 218Centre in Glasgow, funded by the Scottish Executive.They have a similar arrangement there.Q5 Chair: We found similar arrangements in NorthernIreland as well.Baroness Corston: Yes. I remember giving evidenceto the Northern Ireland Committee during the lastParliament about this. Liz may know more about thisthan I do because she was at the sharp end. I was toldthat the reason why the previous Government were notgoing to have the small custodial units was becausewomen themselves did not want them. On the faceof it, I could accept why that was. In men’s prisons,if there is a dispute, it probably ends in violence. Inwomen’s prisons, if there is a dispute, it usually resultsin bullying; it is verbal abuse. Women can become veryfrightened of people who are bullying, but you canrun a prison on the basis of human rights, reciprocalrespect and no bullying.When I was at Cornton Vale prison in Scotland, thethen governor Sue Brookes, who was an absolutelywonderful public servant, when she went to that prison,did this DVD, which everybody had to see, staff andall. It would be reciprocal respect, no shouting and nobullying; and it works. So I felt that this business of,“Women don’t want it” was, in a way, just a reason notto do it. For me, it was not a good enough reason toinvalidate the argument. That, for me, was the biggestdisappointment. The other less serious disappointmentwas that, in the unit about which Liz was talking andwhich she led, the slow response of the Department ofHealth was not helpful.Chair: It is an unusual argument in the criminal justicesystem to say that those being sentenced don’t wantit. It is not an argument that normally prevails in anyother context than this.Q6 Steve Brine: Good morning. I seem to be sittingrather close to you. I don’t know what is wrong withme today; I am sorry about that. It is very nice to seeyou so closely anyway. Do you believe that the currentGovernment accept that the majority of women inprisons should not be there, from what you have readand what you have heard?Baroness Corston: In a debate in the House of Lordsearlier this year, Lord McNally said—I presume thiswas on the basis of personal knowledge; I do not know,but he did say this on the record—that he knew that alarge number of women who were in prison should notbe there, so certainly that has been said.Q7 Steve Brine: Then, on the other side of it, do youthink they believe that women‐only community-basedorganisations work best?Baroness Corston: I don’t know whether they believethat. I believe it passionately because I have seen itwork. I worked as a women’s organiser 35 years agoand I saw that women‐only organisations were a verygood way of getting women involved in whateverenterprise you are trying to set up or sustain. As to therest, I could not tell you.Q8 Steve Brine: To Liz Hogarth, if I may, from yourperspective as a former head of a women’s strategyteam, how would you best describe the strategy of thecurrent Government?Liz Hogarth: If I am very honest—Steve Brine: Please be.Liz Hogarth: —I would have to say there is no visiblestrategy as far as I can see. There is no written strategy.That is not to say things are not happening for women.I do think there are some commitments still to thewomen’s projects, and the fact that NOMS have beenfunding them for this year is a good indication However,I fear that, without the overarching framework of astrategy that sets out, “This is where we want to go andthis is how we are going to get there”—unless there isthe strategy that offers a framework to people out in thereal world, in the field—the Government are missinga trick there. We hear from some probation trusts thatare saying, “I no longer know what is a priority forwomen. I have guidelines that give me suggestions, butI don’t know the direction of travel.”