Women offenders: after the Corston Report - United Kingdom ...
Women offenders: after the Corston Report - United Kingdom ...
Women offenders: after the Corston Report - United Kingdom ...
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Ev 2 Justice Committee: Evidence18 December 2012 Rt Hon Baroness <strong>Corston</strong> and Liz Hogarth OBEofficials were suddenly required to be <strong>the</strong>re and tomake change happen. It was a huge difference. That,coupled with <strong>the</strong> support of <strong>the</strong> Gender Equality Dutyas well, just meant <strong>the</strong> whole profile took off in a hugeway.Q3 Chair: What about NOMS as an organisation?Was that brought into this effectively or not?Liz Hogarth: It was. I have to be honest and say that,originally, I was part of NOMS within <strong>the</strong> <strong>Women</strong>’sPolicy Team and moved from NOMS to MOJ. Ithink NOMS did struggle because <strong>the</strong>y were veryconscious of, and in those days were very focused on,imprisonment, and that is where <strong>the</strong> 5% mantra camefrom. There was a big shift. The difficulty for NOMS,though, is that <strong>the</strong>ir remit is <strong>offenders</strong>. Therefore,it was not within <strong>the</strong>ir remit to take on board andunderstand <strong>the</strong> agenda where we were trying to workwith Jean’s approach, which was to try and cut offwomen at risk of offending getting sucked into <strong>the</strong>criminal justice system. Then and now, <strong>the</strong>re are stilldifficulties around that for <strong>the</strong>m because it is not within<strong>the</strong>ir normal day‐to‐day work.Q4 Chair: What was disappointing?Baroness <strong>Corston</strong>: The biggest disappointment for mewas <strong>the</strong> failure to accept <strong>the</strong> argument that I advancedfor small custodial units for women. There are only 13women’s prisons in England; <strong>the</strong>re aren’t any in Wales,fortunately. If a woman lives in Truro and is sent toprison, <strong>the</strong> nearest prison is north of Bristol. The notionthat her children could be taken to visit her, given <strong>the</strong>profile of women <strong>offenders</strong>, who are generally poor, islaughable. That break is catastrophic, and a significantnumber of <strong>the</strong> children of women prisoners end up inprison. A woman whom I met in Styal had just givenbirth. She herself had been born <strong>the</strong>re.In view of <strong>the</strong> huge emotional and, indeed, publicsector cost of <strong>the</strong>se 13 big prisons, I thought thatsmall local custodial units, which could be serviced bypeople who were not necessarily fixed on site but <strong>the</strong>ycould service two in adjoining counties, for example,would work. I had seen it work when I went to Dublin.There is a centre in Dublin called Dóchas, which isIrish for “hope”. It is in Dublin, in <strong>the</strong> city centre, andit turns women’s lives around, as indeed does <strong>the</strong> 218Centre in Glasgow, funded by <strong>the</strong> Scottish Executive.They have a similar arrangement <strong>the</strong>re.Q5 Chair: We found similar arrangements in Nor<strong>the</strong>rnIreland as well.Baroness <strong>Corston</strong>: Yes. I remember giving evidenceto <strong>the</strong> Nor<strong>the</strong>rn Ireland Committee during <strong>the</strong> lastParliament about this. Liz may know more about thisthan I do because she was at <strong>the</strong> sharp end. I was toldthat <strong>the</strong> reason why <strong>the</strong> previous Government were notgoing to have <strong>the</strong> small custodial units was becausewomen <strong>the</strong>mselves did not want <strong>the</strong>m. On <strong>the</strong> faceof it, I could accept why that was. In men’s prisons,if <strong>the</strong>re is a dispute, it probably ends in violence. Inwomen’s prisons, if <strong>the</strong>re is a dispute, it usually resultsin bullying; it is verbal abuse. <strong>Women</strong> can become veryfrightened of people who are bullying, but you canrun a prison on <strong>the</strong> basis of human rights, reciprocalrespect and no bullying.When I was at Cornton Vale prison in Scotland, <strong>the</strong><strong>the</strong>n governor Sue Brookes, who was an absolutelywonderful public servant, when she went to that prison,did this DVD, which everybody had to see, staff andall. It would be reciprocal respect, no shouting and nobullying; and it works. So I felt that this business of,“<strong>Women</strong> don’t want it” was, in a way, just a reason notto do it. For me, it was not a good enough reason toinvalidate <strong>the</strong> argument. That, for me, was <strong>the</strong> biggestdisappointment. The o<strong>the</strong>r less serious disappointmentwas that, in <strong>the</strong> unit about which Liz was talking andwhich she led, <strong>the</strong> slow response of <strong>the</strong> Department ofHealth was not helpful.Chair: It is an unusual argument in <strong>the</strong> criminal justicesystem to say that those being sentenced don’t wantit. It is not an argument that normally prevails in anyo<strong>the</strong>r context than this.Q6 Steve Brine: Good morning. I seem to be sittingra<strong>the</strong>r close to you. I don’t know what is wrong withme today; I am sorry about that. It is very nice to seeyou so closely anyway. Do you believe that <strong>the</strong> currentGovernment accept that <strong>the</strong> majority of women inprisons should not be <strong>the</strong>re, from what you have readand what you have heard?Baroness <strong>Corston</strong>: In a debate in <strong>the</strong> House of Lordsearlier this year, Lord McNally said—I presume thiswas on <strong>the</strong> basis of personal knowledge; I do not know,but he did say this on <strong>the</strong> record—that he knew that alarge number of women who were in prison should notbe <strong>the</strong>re, so certainly that has been said.Q7 Steve Brine: Then, on <strong>the</strong> o<strong>the</strong>r side of it, do youthink <strong>the</strong>y believe that women‐only community-basedorganisations work best?Baroness <strong>Corston</strong>: I don’t know whe<strong>the</strong>r <strong>the</strong>y believethat. I believe it passionately because I have seen itwork. I worked as a women’s organiser 35 years agoand I saw that women‐only organisations were a verygood way of getting women involved in whateverenterprise you are trying to set up or sustain. As to <strong>the</strong>rest, I could not tell you.Q8 Steve Brine: To Liz Hogarth, if I may, from yourperspective as a former head of a women’s strategyteam, how would you best describe <strong>the</strong> strategy of <strong>the</strong>current Government?Liz Hogarth: If I am very honest—Steve Brine: Please be.Liz Hogarth: —I would have to say <strong>the</strong>re is no visiblestrategy as far as I can see. There is no written strategy.That is not to say things are not happening for women.I do think <strong>the</strong>re are some commitments still to <strong>the</strong>women’s projects, and <strong>the</strong> fact that NOMS have beenfunding <strong>the</strong>m for this year is a good indication However,I fear that, without <strong>the</strong> overarching framework of astrategy that sets out, “This is where we want to go andthis is how we are going to get <strong>the</strong>re”—unless <strong>the</strong>re is<strong>the</strong> strategy that offers a framework to people out in <strong>the</strong>real world, in <strong>the</strong> field—<strong>the</strong> Government are missinga trick <strong>the</strong>re. We hear from some probation trusts thatare saying, “I no longer know what is a priority forwomen. I have guidelines that give me suggestions, butI don’t know <strong>the</strong> direction of travel.”