Volume 8 - KwaZulu-Natal Legislature
Volume 8 - KwaZulu-Natal Legislature
Volume 8 - KwaZulu-Natal Legislature
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CONTENTSM Indicates Notices of Motion that were Ruled Out of Orderin Terms of Rule 136(1)Monday, 23 June 2003OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERSThe Premier - Passing Away of Mr K D Matanzima...................... 2181The Premier - Passing Away of Leader of UDM's Daughter ............... 2181ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKERThe Deputy Speaker - Absence of the Speaker......................... 2181The Deputy Speaker - Congratulates Staff on Running the Comrades ...... 2181ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE PREMIERThe Premier - No Announcements ................................... 2182NOTICES OF MOTIONMr B V Edwards - Create a Climate for Economic Development ........... 2182Mr K Krog - Steps against Rapists ................................... 2183Mr A Christians - NNP Action in Cloetesville By-Election ................. 2183Mr R E Keys - SABC to be Unbiased ................................. 2184Miss G N Swartbooi - Congratulates Bafana Bafana ..................... 2184Mr M Mabuyakhulu - Consolidate the Coalition Government ............. 2185Mr M B Gwala - Political Parties no to be Misled........................ 2185Dr B M Radebe - Mr T Leon not to Head KZN Dept of Housing ............ 2187M Mrs B Scott - ANC's Victories in By-Elections ........................ 2187Mrs S Thakur-Rajbansi - Review Composition of KZN Youth Commission . . . 2188Mrs M Ambler-Moore - Dr Sutcliffe to Adhere to Legislation .............. 2189Mrs L G Ngcobo - Removal of Indian Languages from Syllabi ............. 2189Mr H L Combrinck - IFP Upholds Good Governance ..................... 2190Mr S Qoma - Thanks Parties on Behalf of Mr Holomisa .................. 2190Mr A Rajbansi - Reinstate Indian Language Educators ................... 2191Mr D H Makhaye - Desist from Dirty Campaign Electioneering ............ 2192The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2192REPORT: THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT IN TERMS OF RULE 10(2)Mr J S Ndebele .................................................. 2192The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2203DEBATE: SPECIAL DEBATE TO CELEBRATE YOUTH MONTHMiss G N Swartbooi .............................................. 2204The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2206Mrs J M Downs .................................................. 2206The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2208Mr J Slabbert .................................................... 2208Mrs S Thakur-Rajbansi ............................................ 2210Mr A Christians .................................................. 2212Mr A Rajbansi - Question .......................................... 2215The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2216iiMr B H Cele - Point of Order ........................................2216The Deputy Speaker - Mr Christians to Withdraw Statement ..............2216Mr A Christians - Withdraws Statement ...............................2216Mr A Rajbansi - Point of Order ......................................2216The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2217Mr A Christians...................................................2217Prof M N Khubisa .................................................2218Mr M A Kubheka .................................................2223The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2228The Business of the House Suspended at 12:53Resumed at 14:14The Deputy Speaker - Apologises for Early Start........................2228DEBATE: TRANSPORT PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE REPORT -OVERSEAS STUDY TOURMr S N Mtetwa ...................................................2228Mr T D Ntombela .................................................2233The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2235Mr B H Cele - Point of Order ........................................2235Mr B V Edwards ..................................................2238Mr A Rajbansi ....................................................2240Mrs J M Downs ..................................................2242Mr R E Keys .....................................................2243Mr A Rajbansi - Point of Order ......................................2245Mr M S Malakoana ................................................2246Mr A Singh ......................................................2251The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2254MOTION: IFP UPHOLDS GOOD GOVERNANCEMr H L Combrinck ................................................2254Mrs B Scott......................................................2254Mr R E Keys - Point of Order ........................................2255Mr A Rajbansi - Point of Order ......................................2256The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2256Mr R E Keys - Rule 97(2) ...........................................2256The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2256Mrs B Scott......................................................2256The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2257Mr R E Keys - Question ............................................2257The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2257Mr B H Cele - Point of Order ........................................2261The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2261Mr M R Mzobe ...................................................2261The Deputy Speaker - Order in the House .............................2261Mrs F X Gasa ....................................................2262The Deputy Speaker - Order in the House .............................2266Mr B V Edwards ..................................................2266
iiiMr A Rajbansi ................................................... 2268Mr R E Keys - Point of Order........................................ 2269The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2269Mrs L G Ngcobo ................................................. 2270Mrs J M Downs .................................................. 2273Mr J Krog ....................................................... 2274Dr B M Radebe - Point of Order ..................................... 2274The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2275Mr B H Cele - Point of Order ........................................ 2277Mr V C Xaba - Point of Order ....................................... 2277The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2277Mr A Rajbansi - Point of Order ...................................... 2278The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2278Mr A Rajbansi - Point of Order ...................................... 2278Mrs B Scott - Point of Order ........................................ 2279Mr S B Ngidi .................................................... 2279Mrs C M Cronje - Point of Order..................................... 2279The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2280Mrs C M Cronje - Point of Order..................................... 2280The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2280Mrs C M Cronje - Point of Order..................................... 2281The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2281Mr S B Ngidi .................................................... 2281Mrs C M Cronje - Question ......................................... 2282The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2282Mr Y S Bhamjee.................................................. 2284Mr R E Keys - Question ............................................ 2286The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2286Mr H L Combrinck ................................................ 2287The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2287ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE PREMIERRev C J Mtetwa - No Announcements ................................ 2288ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKERThe Deputy Speaker - Uthulu Community Foundation Briefing ............ 2288ADJOURNMENT ................................................. 2288Tuesday, 24 June 2003OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERSThe Premier - Passing Away of Mr S Shabalala's Father ................. 2289ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKERThe Speaker - No Announcements .................................. 2289ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE PREMIERivThe Premier - No Announcements ...................................2289NOTICES OF MOTIONSMr Y S Bhamjee - Illegal DA Posters..................................2290Mr S B Ngidi - Mr D H Makhaye to Withdraw Remarks re Premier..........2290Mrs J M Downs - ANC & IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings .........2291Mr R E Keys - Mngeni Water - Loss of Jobs ............................2292Mrs C M Cronje - DA's Abuse of the IFP ...............................2292Mr A J Hamilton - National Minister to Sign Global Fund Agreement .......2293Mr S Qoma - Suicides Committed in Butcheries ........................2294Mr J Krog - Employ more Policemen .................................2294Mr E S Mchunu - Racist Statements by the DA .........................2295Mr M S Malakoana - Commends IFPs Provincial Conference ..............2295Mr A Christians - Fast track Child Pornography Hotline...................2296M Mr A Rajbansi - Reward for Service Excellence - Etekhwini .............2296Mr A J Hamilton - Point of Order ....................................2297The Speaker .....................................................2297Dr B M Radebe - Point of Order .....................................2298The Speaker .....................................................2298Mr H L Combrinck - Speedtraps on Road to Game Auction ...............2299The Speaker .....................................................2300REPORT: THE MINISTER OF HOUSING IN TERMS OF RULE 10(2)Rev N W Ngcobo .................................................2300The Speaker .....................................................2308REPORT: THE MINISTER OF HEALTH IN TERMS OF RULE 10(2)Dr Z L Mkhize ....................................................2309DISCUSSION ON THE DISTRIBUTION OF SPEECHESThe Speaker .....................................................2311Mrs M Ambler-Moore .............................................2312The Speaker .....................................................2312Dr Z L Mkhize ....................................................2312Mrs C M Cronje ..................................................2313Mr R M Burrows ..................................................2313The Speaker .....................................................2313Inkosi S H Gumede ...............................................2314Mr A Rajbansi ....................................................2314Mr V A Volker ....................................................2314Mr J Slabbert ................................................... 2314The Speaker .....................................................2314RESUMED REPORT: THE MINISTER OF HEALTH IN TERMS OF RULE 10(2)Dr Z L Mkhize ....................................................2314The Speaker - Economic Development & Tourism PortfolioCommittee Meeting ...............................................2322The Speaker - Spectacles Found .....................................2322Mrs C M Cronje - Changes to the Order Paper..........................2323
vThe Speaker..................................................... 2323The Business of the House Suspended at 12:26Resumed at 14:15The Speaker - Spectacles Found .................................... 2324DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORTIN TERMS OF RULE 10(4)Mr M J Mthiyane ................................................. 2324Mr H L Combrinck - Point of Order................................... 2324The Speaker..................................................... 2324Miss V Tambo ................................................... 2325Mr B V Edwards.................................................. 2328Mr A Rajbansi ................................................... 2330The Speaker..................................................... 2331Mr J Slabbert .................................................... 2331Mr R E Keys ..................................................... 2333Dr B M Radebe .................................................. 2336The Speaker..................................................... 2338Mrs F X Gasa - Question ........................................... 2338The Speaker..................................................... 2338Mr S B Ngidi - Point of Order ....................................... 2339Mr M S Malakoana ............................................... 2342DISCUSSION ON COMMENT MADE BY MR MALAKOANAMr J S Ndebele .................................................. 2343The Speaker..................................................... 2343Mrs C M Cronje .................................................. 2344The Speaker..................................................... 2344Mr M S Malakoana ............................................... 2344The Speaker..................................................... 2344Mrs C M Cronje .................................................. 2344The Speaker..................................................... 2344Dr B M Radebe .................................................. 2345Mr J S Ndebele .................................................. 2345The Speaker..................................................... 2345Mr S B Ngidi .................................................... 2345Mrs C M Cronje .................................................. 2346The Speaker..................................................... 2346Mr S B Ngidi .................................................... 2346Mrs C M Cronje .................................................. 2346The Speaker..................................................... 2346Mr R E Keys ..................................................... 2346Mrs C M Cronje .................................................. 2346Mr H L Combrinck ................................................ 2347The Speaker - Mr Malakoana to Withdraw Statement ................... 2347Mr M S Malakoana ............................................... 2347Mr J S Ndebele .................................................. 2347viThe Speaker .....................................................2347Mr M S Malakoana ................................................2348The Speaker .....................................................2348Mrs C M Cronje ..................................................2348Inkosi S H Gumede ...............................................2349The Speaker .....................................................2350Mr J S Ndebele ..................................................2350The Speaker .....................................................2350Mr J S Ndebele ..................................................2350The Speaker .....................................................2351Mr J S Ndebele ..................................................2351The Speaker .....................................................2351Mr B S Mohlaka ..................................................2351The Speaker .....................................................2351Mr M S Malakoana ................................................2351Mr J S Ndebele ..................................................2352The Speaker .....................................................2352The House Adjourned at 15:17Resumed at 18:19The Speaker - Explains Adjournment .................................2352DISCUSSION ON NNP MOTIONThe Speaker .....................................................2353Mr B V Edwards ..................................................2354The Speaker .....................................................2354Mrs C M Cronje ..................................................2354Mr B V Edwards ..................................................2354Mr R E Keys .....................................................2354ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKERThe Speaker - Starting Time of Next Sitting............................2355The Speaker - Executive Board Meeting ..............................2355Mr R E Keys .....................................................2355The Speaker - Briefing by the Commissioner...........................2355ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE PREMIERThe Premier - No Announcements ...................................2355ADJOURNMENT .................................................2355Wednesday, 25 June 2003ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKERThe Speaker - Explanation in Terms of Rule 106(3) ......................2356Mr D H Makhaye - Explanation in Terms of Rule 106(3) ..................2356ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE PREMIER
viiThe Premier - No Announcements ................................... 2357NOTICES OF MOTIONMr V A Volker - IFP & ANC to Govern Responsibly ...................... 2357Mr M B Gwala - Caution re Forums in Rural Communities ................ 2358M Mr Y S Bhamjee - DA's Illegal Posters .............................. 2359Mr R E Keys - Redraft the Terrorism Bill .............................. 2360Mrs S Thakur-Rajbansi - Implement Policing Programmes in the Province . . 2360Mrs F X Gasa - Supports the Premier and his Family .................... 2361Prof L B G Ndabandaba - Departments to Develop Anti-rape Projects ...... 2361Mr A Christians - Delays in Implementing AIDS Treatment ............... 2362Mr A Rajbansi - Equitable Allocation of Funds for Culture ................ 2363M Mr H Bekker - Investigate Affairs in the Department of Housing ......... 2363Dr B M Radebe - Transport Forum Programmes........................ 2364Mrs M Ambler-Moore - Providing More Police ......................... 2365M Mr J F Aulsebrook - Provincial Air Service .......................... 2365Miss L F Shabalala - DA not to Oppose the Terrorism Legislation .......... 2366Mr M A Kubheka - IFP not to be Abused by Right Wing Forces ............ 2367Prof M N Khubisa - Root out Evil in the Schools ....................... 2367Mr P Ngcobo - Corruption in the Western Cape ........................ 2368The Speaker..................................................... 2369QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS WILL APPEAR IN A SEPARATE VOLUMERESUMED DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORTIN TERMS OF RULE 10(4)The Speaker - Mr Malakoana to Withdraw Statement ................... 2369Mr M S Malakoana ............................................... 2370The Speaker - Mr Malakoana to Withdraw Statement ................... 2370Mr M S Malakoana ............................................... 2370Mr V A Volker - Point of Order ...................................... 2371The Speaker - Orders Mr Malakoana to Leave the House ................ 2371Mr E S Mbatha - Point of Order ..................................... 2371The Speaker - Order in the House ................................... 2371Mr E S Mbatha................................................... 2372The Speaker..................................................... 2372Mr E S Mchunu .................................................. 2372Inkosi N J Ngubane - Question...................................... 2372The Speaker..................................................... 2372Mr J Slabbert - Point of Order ...................................... 2373Mr J S Ndebele .................................................. 2373The Speaker..................................................... 2374REPORT: THE MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITYIN TERMS OF RULE 10(2)Inkosi N J Ngubane ............................................... 2374The Deputy Speaker - Explanation in Terms of Rule 106(3) ............... 2386Dr Z L Mkhize - Explanation in Terms of Rule 106(3) ..................... 2387viiiMOTION: ANC AND IFP TO RESOLVE OUTSTANDING UNDERTAKINGSThe Deputy Speaker ..............................................2387Mrs J M Downs ..................................................2388Mrs F X Gasa - Point of Order .......................................2391The Deputy Speaker - Order in the House .............................2391DISCUSSION ON SUB JUDICE ISSUES RAISED BY MRS DOWNSMr S B Ngidi .....................................................2391The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2391Mrs J M Downs ..................................................2392The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2392Mrs L G Ngcobo ..................................................2392The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2392Mrs L G Ngcobo ..................................................2393Inkosi S H Gumede ...............................................2393The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2393Mrs L G Ngcobo ..................................................2393The Deputy Speaker - Speaker not to be Interrupted ....................2394Mrs L G Ngcobo ..................................................2394The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2395Mrs J M Downs ..................................................2395Inkosi S H Gumede - Rule 103.......................................2395The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2395The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2396Mrs J M Downs ..................................................2396Inkosi S H Gumede ...............................................2397The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2397Mrs J M Downs ..................................................2398Mr S B Ngidi .....................................................2398The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2398RESUMED DEBATE: MOTION: ANC AND IFP TO RESOLVEOUTSTANDING UNDERTAKINGSMrs J M Downs ..................................................2399Mr B H Cele .....................................................2400Mrs F X Gasa ....................................................2403Mr V A Volker ....................................................2408The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2409Mr J Slabbert ....................................................2409Mrs M Ambler-Moore .............................................2410Inkosi B N Mdletshe (The Speaker) ...................................2412Mr V C Xaba - Point of Order........................................2412The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2413Mr E S Mchunu ..................................................2417Mr H Bekker - Question ............................................2418The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2418Mrs F X Gasa - Question ...........................................2419The Deputy Speaker ..............................................2419Mr M B Gwala - Point of Order ......................................2420
ixThe Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2420Mr E S Mchunu .................................................. 2420The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2420The Deputy Speaker - Order in the House............................. 2421Mrs J M Downs .................................................. 2424Mrs F X Gasa - Point of Order....................................... 2425The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2425Mrs J M Downs .................................................. 2426Inkosi B N Mdletshe (The Speaker) - Question ......................... 2426The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2426The Deputy Speaker - Order in the House............................. 2427Mrs L G Ngcobo - Point of Order .................................... 2427The Deputy Speaker - Order in the House............................. 2427Mrs J M Downs .................................................. 2427The Deputy Speaker - Order in the House............................. 2428Mrs A Mchunu - Point of Order ..................................... 2428The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2428Mr B H Cele - Point of Order ........................................ 2429The Deputy Speaker .............................................. 2429ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE PREMIERThe Premier - No Announcements ................................... 2429Mr J Slabbert - Commends the Speaker and Deputy Speaker............. 2429ADJOURNMENT ................................................. 2430
MREGISTERVOLUME PAGE - PAGE1 2003 1 3442 2003 345 6923 2003 693 9614 2003 963 13505 2003 1351 17536 2003 1755 19697 2003 1971 21798 2003 2181 2430Indicates Notices of Motion that were Ruled Out of Orderin Terms of Rule 136(1)Opening of Parliament by His Majesty the King: 65THE SPEAKER:Opening Address by His Majesty the King: 78Vote of Thanks to His Majesty the King: 80Obituaries and Other Ceremonial Matters:Passing Away of Mr M L Mgunu: 538Passing Away of Mr V B Ndlovu's Daughter: 1910Announcements: 2109Welcomes Mr S Qoma: 1Applause: 8, 11, 32Speaker's List: 8, 313Respect Decorum of the House: 11Order in the House: 24, 59, 62, 472, 508, 701, 1153, 2097, 2371Rule 98: 29, 37, 501, 671, 672, 1535Photo Session: 65No Announcements: 80, 81, 288, 345, 963, 1157, 1258, 1351, 1616, 1756,1910, 1971, 2110, 2152, 2289Briefing Trafficking of Children: 118Sub-Committee on Rules Meeting: 302Adjournment: 344Licence Conversions: 394Introduces New Members: 512Absence of the Deputy Speaker: 538Removal of Vehicle: 577, 596, 624, 1147Mr Makhaye to withdraw Statement re Mr Keys: 693Requests Prince Zulu to Apologise: 700Progress Report on Administration of <strong>Legislature</strong>: 848Welcomes Mr Mabona from Mpumalanga Province: 861Starting Time of Next Sitting: 961Extended Whips Meeting: 1257Funeral Service - Mr Malusi Mnguni: 1257Apologises to Members - Caucus Rooms Locked: 1257Length of Notices of Motion: 1266Cocktail Party: 1546Complaints: Mrs Nkonyeni and Mrs Blose: 15472Rule 136(1) (2) & (4): 1548, 1759, 1974Launch of the <strong>Legislature</strong> Website: 1909HIV/AIDS Workshop: 1910Letter of Apology from Mr T D Ntombela: 2108Members to Collect Driver's Licences: 2126Economic Development & Tourism Portfolio Committee Meeting: 2322Spectacles Found: 2322, 2324Mr Malakoana to Withdraw Statement: 2347, 2369, 2370Explains Adjournment: 2352Starting Time of Next Sitting: 2355Executive Board Meeting: 2355Briefing by the Commissioner: 2355Explanation in Terms of Rule 106(3): 2356Orders Mr Malakoana to Leave the House: 2371Announcement by the Premier: 5, 1259, 1263, 1969Premier not Present: 512, 1157, 1258, 1548, 1971, 2110Tabling of Reports: 346, 695, 1759, 1760, 2110KZT Report Referred to Joint Committees: 512Strategic Plan for the Provincial Parliament: 1911Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 551, 606, 610, 611, 613, 615, 636, 642, 663, 692Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 2172Vote 2: The Provincial <strong>Legislature</strong>: 1915, 1964, 1968, 1969, 2172Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1752, 1753, 2173Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1127, 2173Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2076, 2077, 2174Vote 6: Provincial Treasury: 1908, 2174, 2175Vote 7: Department of Health: 847, 2175Vote 8: Department of Housing: 2175, 2176Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1256, 2176Vote 10: The Royal Household: 2176Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1522, 2177Vote 12: Department of Transport: 960, 2177Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1350,2177, 2178Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1603, 2178, 2179The <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Withdrawal of the Bill: 2162The Amended <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003: 2167, 2168, 2171,2179Notices of Bills or Motion: 20, 21, 92, 301, 359, 517, 551, 703, 858, 860, 861,862, 1163, 1264, 1269, 1357, 1623, 1759, 1978, 2115, 2297, 2298, 2300,2369Amendment to Notice of Motion: 1623NCOP Delegates: 1603, 1606, 1607, 1608, 1610The Restriction of Access to Public Places for Safety and Security Purposes Bill,2002: 2111Motions:Order Paper Amended: 22,Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 343Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1128, 1131, 1134, 1147, 1148, 1149,1155, 1156Appointment of Adv D M Achtzen as Commissioner on Ethics and Members'Interests: 1912ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2412, 2426Debates:The Premier's Report in Terms of Rule 10(4): 29, 33, 36, 38, 63, 64State of the Province Address by the Premier: 118Report by the Minister of Health: 430, 2323
3Report by the Minister of Housing: 475, 478, 2308Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa FourthAmendment Bill (B69B-2002): 490, 497, 504, 509, 510Voting Mandate on the Constitution of South Africa Fourth Amendment Bill[B69B-2003]: 536, 537The Statement by the Premier: 1534, 1535, 1536, 1539, 1546The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2098, 2101, 2102, 2108Report by the Minister of Transport: 2324, 2331, 2338, 2372, 2374Discussions:Amendments to the Order Paper: 9Notice of Motion by Mr Gwala: 515, 519, 520, 521, 522Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 539, 540, 542Notice of Motion by Mrs Nkonyeni: 701, 702Notice of Motion by Mr Rajbansi: 705, 706Notice of Motion by Mr Burrows: 708Notice of Motion by Mr Hamilton: 709Tabling of Strategic Plans: 710, 711Comment by Mr Rajbansi: 712Extension of Time for Notices of Motion: 858, 859Mr Miller Apologises to Mr Rajbansi: 971On Adjournment: 1145, 1147On Rule 117: 1150, 1151Changes to the Order Paper: 1550, 1551, 1552, 1553Parliamentary Procedure: 1553Good Wishes for Easter: 1611, 1613Discussion on Procedure: 2160, 2161Distribution of Speeches: 2311, 2312, 2313, 2314Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2343, 2344, 2345, 2346, 2347, 2348,2350, 2351, 2352NNP Motion: 2353, 2354THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:Announcement:Order in the House: 47, 49, 2261, 2266, 2391, 2421, 2427, 2428Absence of the Speaker: 2181Congratulates Staff on Running the Comrades: 2181Mr Christians to Withdraw Statement: 2216Apologises for Early Start: 2228Uthulu Community Foundation Briefing: 2288Explanation in Terms of Rule 106(3): 2386Speaker not to be Interrupted: 2394Notice of Motion: 2192Motions:IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2256, 2257, 2261, 2269, 2275, 2277, 2278,2280, 2281, 2282, 2286, 2287ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2387, 2409, 2413, 2418,2419, 2420, 2425, 2426, 2428, 2429Debates:The Premier's Report in Terms of Rule 10(4): 42Report by the Minister of Transport in Terms of Rule 10(2): 2203Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2206, 2208, 2216, 2217, 2228Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2235, 2254Discussions:Rule 97: 42, 43Sub Judice Issues Raised by Mrs Downs: 2391, 2392, 2393, 2395, 2396,2397, 2398THE ACTING SPEAKER:Announcements:Absence of the Speaker and Deputy Speaker: 1194Members to Rise in Terms of the Rules: 127New Parliamentary Cards: 132Rule 17(a): 211, 212, 279Changes to the Order Paper: 221Explanation in Terms of Rule 106: 247Order in the House: 261Rule 98: 277Adjournment Time of Next Sitting Day: 286Removal of Vehicles: 336, 342Members to Keep Financial Documents: 391Speaker's List: 391Tabling of Report: 132Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:The Budget Debate: 390Notices of Motion: 126, 128Motions:Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 223Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 269, 271, 279Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 327, 328, 333, 343Debates:The Premier's State of the Province Address in Terms of Rule 10(4): 151, 165,203Report by the Minister of Education and Culture: 405, 413, 415, 417, 418,421Report by the Minister of Health: 456Report by the Minister of Housing: 458Discussions:Remark Made by Mr Mzobe: 246, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252, 253Speaker's List: 265, 266, 267Addressing the House: 272, 273, 274Remark made by Mrs Ambler-Moore: 339, 340, 341On Adjournment: 392, 393,THE CHAIRPERSON:Announcements:Rule 10 (3)(a) and (b): 719, 975Order in the House: 726, 766, 808, 910, 927, 997, 1015, 1033, 1304, 1428,1443, 1794, 1840, 1890, 1955, 2060, 2067Lost Car Keys: 762, 785, 1858, 1908Removal of Vehicle: 785, 1035, 1709, 2057Applause: 785, 790Reading of Newspapers: 816Rule 20: 899Sleeping in the House: 1031, 1071, 1316Lunch Adjournment: 1044, 1416Correct Terminology: 1044Use of Cellphone: 1047, 1279Mr Christians to Withdraw Statement: 1032Time Allocated to Members: 1068, 1346Addressing of the Chairperson: 1073Airconditioning to Remain Switched on: 1084Precincts of Parliament Non-Smoking Area: 1096, 1099Strangers in the House: 1098Ruling on Point of Order: 1105Members to Respect Rules: 1126Distribution of Speech: 1269Translation Service to be Provided: 1189Rule 101: 1326Rule 53: 1328
5House in Committee: 1357, 1915Traditional Affairs Debate: 1378Translation Service: 1455, 1457, 1458Mr Mthiyane to Withdraw Statement: 1479Rule 95: 1554Quorum Requirements: 1585, 1825Easter Recess: 1602Changes to the Speaker's List: 1624Strategic Plan Sub-Committee Meeting: 1624Executive Board Meeting: 1695Agriculture Portfolio Committee Meeting: 1695Crossing the Line: 1737, 2021Allocated Time Expired: 1898Mrs E E N kaNkosi-Shandu to Withdraw Statement: 1914Checking Timing Clock: 1922Rule 36(1): 1933, 1935Mr Keys to Withdraw Statement: 1937Parliamentary Liaison Officer: 2008Whips Meeting: 2036Welcomes Learners & Teachers in the House: 2042Orders Mr Ntombela to Leave the House: 2073Rule 33: 2076Thanks Members for the Budget Debate: 2076Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1760, 1779, 1792, 1816, 1840Vote 2: The Provincial <strong>Legislature</strong>: 1930, 1951, 1968Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1659, 1687, 1702Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1705, 1752Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1100, 1106,1107, 1115, 1124, 1127Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 1978, 2042, 2047, 2048, 2061,2062, 2068, 2077Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1842, 1843, 1864, 1879, 1886, 1891,1892, 1893, 1894, 1895, 1896, 1899, 1908Vote 7: Department of Health: 766, 798, 807, 809, 812, 815, 847Vote 8: Department of Housing: 972, 991, 997, 1004, 1006, 1013, 1016,1029, 1031, 1032, 1034, 1041, 1042, 1044, 1049Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1163, 1189, 1205, 1207, 1217,1218, 1225, 1226, 1230, 1232, 1236, 1238, 1239, 1256Vote 10: Royal Household: 713, 722, 723, 725, 726, 732, 742, 744, 749,751, 752, 753, 754, 761Vote 11: Department of Traditional and Local Government Affairs: 1397,1425, 1438, 1439, 1442, 1458, 1460, 1467, 1479, 1486, 1488, 1512,1514, 1515, 1516, 1521, 1522Vote 12: Department of Transport: 862, 896, 900, 905, 906, 907, 908,909, 915, 932, 940, 941, 959, 960Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1291,1299, 1301, 1312, 1329, 1331, 1343, 1350Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1566, 1584, 1588, 1589, 1603Discussions:Distribution of Speeches: 978, 979, 1358Remark made by Mr Christians: 1033Discussion in Terms of Rule 99(a)(i): 1892, 1893THE PREMIER:Vote of Thanks to His Majesty the King: 78Obituaries and Other Ceremonial Matters:Bus Accident at Emalangeni: 1615Passing Away of Mr K D Matanzima: 2181Passing Away of Leader of UDM's Daughter: 2181Passing Away of Mr S Shabalala's Father: 2289Announcements:No Announcements: 64, 80, 81, 118, 343, 511, 537, 538, 694, 963, 1156,1351, 1546, 1616, 1756, 1910, 2152, 2179, 2182, 2289, 2355, 2357,2429New Members of the KZN Gambling Board: 119Withdraws Statement made on 28 November 2002: 288Democracy in <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>: 850Composition of the Cabinet: 1259Announces New Members of Cabinet: 1613Tabling of Reports or Papers:Strategic Plan - Dept of the Royal Household: 852Strategic Plan for the Office of the Premier: 1616Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 601Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1760, 1835Vote 10: Royal Household: 713, 759Debates:The Premier's Report: 1, 60State of the Province Address: 92, 200The Statement by the Premier: 1543Discussion:Tabling of Strategic Plans: 711THE SECRETARY:Announcement:Lunch Arrangements: 806AMBLER-MOORE, Mrs M:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1803Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1625, 1684Vote 7: Department of Health: 798, 828Vote 10: Royal Household: 731Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1394Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1304,1338Notices of Motion:Further Research into Fluoridation: 15Agency for Social Security: 86Illegal Developments on KZN Coast: 129Airports to Cater for the Disabled: 351Investigate Allegations against Mr Jacob Zuma: 523National Minister of Health to Resign: 549Validity of Drivers Licences: 695Educate People re Waste Management: 1160Signing of Global Fund Agreement: 1266Pregnant Mothers to Establish their HIV Status: 1354Improve Government Service to the People: 1622M Welfare Grants to Refugees and Asylum Seekers: 2117Congratulates Mr Sibusiso Vilane: 2157Dr Sutcliffe to Adhere to Legislation: 2189Providing More Police: 2365Motions:Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 337, 341ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2410Debates:
Report by the Minister of Health: 431The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2084, 2098The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2137Discussions:Notice of Motion by Mr Hamilton: 709Distribution of Speeches: 1358, 2312AULSEBROOK, J F:Tabling of Reports or Papers:Emandleni-Matleng Youth Training Centre Report: 1759, 1760Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1780, 1821Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1093Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1864Vote 10: Royal Household: 719, 729Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1416Notices of Motion:Wishes the South African Cricket Team Well: 20Arms Deal Payouts: 89M Provincial Air Service: 2365Debates:State of the Province Address by the Premier: 165The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2131BALOYI, Dr O S:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 7: Department of Health: 790, 834Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1458Notices of Motion:The Gale Street Mortuary: 357Agreement with the Global Fund to be Finalised: 1158Debate:Report by the Minister of Health: 446BEKKER, H:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 628Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1074Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1879Notices of Motion:Re-instatement of Ministers: 699Point of Order: 704, 1265Assess <strong>Legislature</strong> Requirements: 1975M Investigate Affairs in the Department of Housing: 2363Motion:ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2418BHAMJEE, Y S:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1124Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1038, 1042Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1378, 1440Announcement by the Speaker:Point of Order: 1257Notices of Motion:7The ANC Leads: 861Recognise all Religious Groups: 2121Illegal DA Posters: 2290M DA's Illegal Posters: 2359Motion:IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2284Debate:Report by the Minister of Housing: 476Discussion:Distribution of Speeches: 978, 979BHENGU, G B:[Whip]Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1741Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1891Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1403Notices of Motion:Opening of Parliament on 28/02/03: 84Rule 136: Notice of Motion by Mr Rajbansi: 703Point of Order: 1357Motion:Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 333Debate:The Statement by the Premier: 1539Discussions:Remark made by Mr Mzobe: 250, 251, 252Addressing the House: 273Discussion in Terms of Rule 99(a)(i): 18928BLOSE, Mrs H M:[Whip]Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1438, 1439Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1482, 1514, 1516Notice of Motion:Members to be Provided with Bodyguards: 358Debate:Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa FourthAmendment Bill (B69B-2002): 508BURROWS, R M:[Minister of Economic Development and Tourism]Tabling of Reports or Papers:Strategic Plan for the Dept of Economic Development and Tourism: 963Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 642, 658Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1050, 1114The Amended <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003: 2171Notices of Motion:Threat of War in Iraq: 82Resolution of Israeli & Palestinian Conflict: 347Action by the Minister of Housing: 513Support South Africa's Peace Initiatives: 544
9Purchase of Four Seasons Hotel: 707President to Apologise to the DA: 860Concern about Traffic Accidents: 1616Commends DAs Campaign to Stop Crime: 2152Motions:Order Paper Amended: 22Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 327Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1147, 1152NCOP Delegates: 1607, 1608Debates:Report by the Premier: 32, 33, 51State of the Province Address by the Premier: 149, 189Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa FourthAmendment Bill (B69B-2002): 503, 504Voting Mandate on the Constitution of South Africa Fourth Amendment Bill[B69B-2003]: 533The Statement by the Premier: 1531Discussions:Remark made by Mrs Ambler-Moore: 339, 340On Adjournment: 393Notice of Motion by Mr Burrows: 708Comment by Mr Rajbansi: 712Extension of Time for Notices of Motion: 858Distribution of Speeches: 978Remark made by Mr Christians: 1032On Rule 117: 1151Changes to the Order Paper: 1550Parliamentary Procedure: 1553Good Wishes for Easter: 1612Distribution of Speeches: 2313CELE, B H:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 610, 627Vote 2: The Provincial <strong>Legislature</strong>: 1960Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1234Motions:Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 240IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2261, 2277ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2400, 2429Debates:The Premier's Report: 63The Premier's State of the Province Address: 185Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2216Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2235Discussions:Remark made by Mr Mzobe: 249, 251Notice of Motion by Mr Gwala: 520, 521, 522Changes to the Order Paper: 1552Discussion on Procedure: 2161CHRISTIANS, A:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1792, 1820Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1733Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1009, 1031, 1033Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1191, 1226Vote 10: Royal Household: 749Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1472, 1490Vote 12: Department of Transport: 906, 907, 909Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1576, 1588Notices of Motion:Muslims Stranded at Airport: 12Condemns Action of Teacher at Bulwer: 89Plight of the Youth: 121Privatise Security at Courts: 524Constitution Caters for Religious Observance: 550Residents to help Eliminate Crime: 696Intimidation of Copesville Residents: 853Ellis Park Tragedy: 1161Interception and Monitoring Act: 1355Disband National Youth Commission: 1549Launch of the <strong>Legislature</strong> Website: 1913Behaviour of Students at Stellenbosch University: 1975Condemn Conduct of Certain Taxi Operators: 2119Thanks to Plessislaer Police Commissioner: 2159NNP Action in Cloetesville By-Election: 2183Fast track Child Pornography Hotline: 2296Delays in Implementing AIDS Treatment: 2362Motion:Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 227Debates:The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2141Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2212, 2216, 2217Discussion:Remark made by Mr Christians: 103210COLEMAN, E O:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1714Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1340Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1587Notices of Motion:Reserve Bank to Review Interest Rate Policy: 299Congratulates Toni Yengeni: 358COMBRINCK, H L:[Deputy Chief Whip]Notice of Motion:Speedtraps on Road to Game Auction: 2299Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1655Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1727Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1331Motions:NCOP Delegates: 1607IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2190, 2254, 2287Debate:Report by the Minister of Transport: 2324Discussions:On Speaker's List: 265, 266Extension of Time for Notices of Motion: 858Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2347CRONJE, Mrs C M:[Chief Whip]
11Announcement by the Premier:Point of Order: 1258Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 610, 611, 612Vote 2: The Provincial <strong>Legislature</strong>: 1922Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1842, 1858, 1891, 1894, 1895, 1898,1899Vote 12: Department of Transport: 908Notice of Motion:Respect the Constitution of the RSA: 970DA's Abuse of the IFP: 2292Motions:NCOP Delegates: 1603, 1610Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1128, 1151IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2279, 2280, 2281, 2282Debates:The Premier's State of the Province Address: 151Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa FourthAmendment Bill (B69B-2002): 494, 503, 509Voting Mandate on the Constitution of South Africa Fourth Amendment Bill[B69B-2003]: 526, 536Discussions:On Speaker's List: 265, 266, 267Remark made by Mrs Ambler-Moore: 339On Adjournment: 392, 1145Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 540Notice of Motion by Mr Rajbansi: 706Speaker to Attend to Outstanding Rulings: 706On Rule 117: 1150Changes to the Order Paper: 1550, 2323Discussion in Terms of Rule 99(a)(i): 1892Distribution of Speeches: 2313Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2344, 2346, 2348NNP Motion: 2354Point of Order: 344DOWNS, Mrs J M:Announcement by the Premier:Point of Order: 1263Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 620Vote 2: The Provincial <strong>Legislature</strong>: 1938Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1725Vote 7: Department of Health: 820Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1019Vote 10: Royal Household: 738Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1410Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1319Notices of Motion:Review the Building of the Prospecton Toll: 294MEC of Welfare to Re-prioritise Budget: 1268Possible Removal of Christian Holidays: 2116Motions:Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 236Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 313, 325Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1130, 1142, 1154IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2273ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2291, 2388, 2399, 2424,122426, 2427Debates:State of the Province Address by the Premier: 160Report by the Minister of Education and Culture: 408Report by the Minister of Health: 440Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa FourthAmendment Bill (B69B-2002): 508The Statement by the Premier: 1540The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2136Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2206Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2242Discussions:On Adjournment: 393, 1146Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 540, 541, 542Extension of Time for Notices of Motion: 859Changes to the Order Paper: 1551Sub Judice Issues Raised by Mrs Downs: 2392, 2395, 2396, 2398EDWARDS, B V:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 654Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1816Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1664Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1080Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2024Vote 7: Department of Health: 802Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1189Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1425Vote 12: Department of Transport: 899Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1304,1336Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1579Notices of Motion:Promote Democracy in African Countries: 14Investigate Commodity Price Increases: 297End the War in Iraq: 545State of Mens Toilets: 856M School Feeding Schemes to be Managed Efficiently: 2114M Questions the DA Leadership: 2155Create a Climate for Economic Development: 2182Motions:Order Paper Amended: 22Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 222Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 320NCOP Delegates: 1608IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2266Debates:State of the Province Address by the Premier: 178Report by the Minister of Education and Culture: 402Report by the Minister of Health: 435Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2238Report by the Minister of Transport: 2328Discussions:Speaker's List: 265On Adjournment: 393Extension of Time for Notices of Motion: 858NNP Motion: 2354GABELA, L S:
13Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1826Vote 10: Royal Household: 755Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1384GASA, Mrs F X:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 7: Department of Health: 809, 816Vote 10: Royal Household: 725, 726Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1313Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1573Notices of Motion:Congratulates the Premier: 131Investigate Retail Pricing Policies: 351Point of Order: 359Bus Accident at eMalangeni: 1972Supports the Premier and his Family: 2361Motions:IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2262ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2391, 2403, 2419, 2425Debates:The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2093Report by the Minister of Transport: 2338Discussion:Remark made by Mr Mzobe: 248GCABASHE, Mrs L A:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1104Vote 8: Department of Housing: 998Notice of Motion:Stop the Trafficking of Children and Women: 296Debate:Report by the Minister of Housing: 456, 459GUMEDE, Inkosi S H:[Chief Whip]Motions:Order Paper Amended: 22Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1128, 1134, 1148, 1155Discussions:On Adjournment: 392, 1145Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 541On Rule 117: 1150Changes to the Order Paper: 1550Distribution of Speeches: 2314Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2349Sub Judice Issues Raised by Mrs Downs: 2393, 2395, 2397GWALA, M B:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1796Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1196Vote 10: Royal Household: 740Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1491Vote 12: Department of Transport: 884Notices of Motion:Presence of Amabutho at Opening of Parliament: 124Eradicate Fraud in the Dept of Housing: 513, 515Funerals not to be Used as Political Forums: 1353IFPs Victory in Eshowe & Mooi River: 1977IFPs Victory in Hlabisa: 2113Political Parties no to be Misled: 2185Caution re Forums in Rural Communities: 2358Motions:Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 82, 237ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2420Debate:The Statement by the Premier: 153614HAMILTON, A J:Tabling of Reports:Auditor-General Reports:South African Housing Fund, 1999: 81Annual Financial Statements re Local Authorities in KZN, 2001-2002: 82Financial Statements on the South African Housing Board: 120Status Outstanding Financial Statements of Local Authorities: 120Public Accounts Committee Report: 1756Delays in the Tabling of Annual Reports for the Financial Year 2001/02: 2110Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1789Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1100Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1043Notices of Motion:Condemns Reported Threats by Mr Makhaye: 19New Port for Durban: 87Re-imburse Saambou Bond-holders: 131Political Parties to Disclose Source of Donations: 290Control Steel, Aluminium & Plastic Pricing: 354Reserve Bank and KPMG Report on Saambou: 543Calls for Dismissal of National Minister of Health: 704KPMG Report on Procurement Procedures - SITA: 853Wishes the People of Iraq Well: 1158Calls on National Minister of Health to Resign: 1263Concern over the Mining Royalty Bill: 1355National Minister to Sign Global Fund Agreement: 2293Point of Order: 2297Motion:Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 317Debate:The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2126, 2149Discussion:Comment by Mr Rajbansi: 712JOHNSON, Mrs L:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 7: Department of Health: 786, 831Notice of Motion:Welcomes Prof R Feacham: 544Debate:Report by the Minister of Health: 442KANKOSI-SHANDU, Mrs E E N:[Whip]
15Announcements by the Chairperson:Mrs kaNkosi-Shandu Withdraws Statement: 1915Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1875, 1893Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1217Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1512Notice of Motion:<strong>Natal</strong> Students at University of Stellenbosch: 19Motion:Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 257, 272Debates:The Premier's Report: 38Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa FourthAmendment Bill (B69B-2002): 510Voting Mandate on the Constitution of South Africa Fourth Amendment Bill[B69B-2003]: 537Discussion:Addressing the House: 274KEYS, R E:[Chief Whip]Announcements by the Speaker: 2355Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 551, 633, 643Vote 2: The Provincial <strong>Legislature</strong>: 1930, 1937, 1954Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2019, 2055Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1882Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1040, 1041, 1044Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1205, 1225Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1428, 1442Vote 12: Department of Transport: 893, 905, 908, 927Notices of Motion:ANC's 91st Birthday: 9Condemns Increase in Toll Fees: 123Point of Order: 127Alleged Assault by SAPS: 350Rights of Cuban Doctors: 518South Africa not to Become a One-Party State: 546Government to deal with AIDS Epidemic: 694Violation of the Judiciary in Neighbouring Countries: 857Is PDP a Front Party for the ANC?: 965Mr Volker to Withdraw Veiled Threats: 1160Defuse Tension in the Taxi Industry: 1352Compensation to Liberation Fighters: 1548End the Reign of Mr Mugabe: 1618Private Members' Bill in terms of Rule 185(4): 1623, 1759, 1969Condolences to the Sisulu Family: 1757DA's Victory in Grassy Park & Moffet Park: 1971Increase Compensation to Victims of Apartheid: 2112SABC to be Unbiased: 2184Mngeni Water - Loss of Jobs: 2292Redraft the Terrorism Bill: 2360Motions:Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 90, 313Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1127, 1139Appointment of Adv D M Achtzen as Commissioner on Ethics and Members'Interests: 1911IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2255, 2256, 2257, 2269, 228616Debates:The Premier's State of the Province Address: 139Report by the Minister of Education and Culture: 411Report by the Minister of Health: 430Report by the Minister of Housing: 458, 478Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa FourthAmendment Bill (B69B-2002): 497Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2243Report by the Minister of Transport: 2333Discussions:Rule 97: 42, 43Speaker's List: 265, 266Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 541Notice of Motion by Mr Rajbansi: 705Extension of Time for Notices of Motion: 858On Adjournment: 1146Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2346NNP Motion: 2354KHUBISA, Prof M N:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 637Vote 2: The Provincial <strong>Legislature</strong>: 1956Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2014Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1589Notices of Motion:Concern that SA has become World Drug Destination: 130Abolish Exchange Control: 356Parties not to Isolate IFP Leadership: 966The Book "Indoda Emadodeni": 2120Root out Evil in the Schools: 2367Debates:Report by the Minister of Education and Culture: 399Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa FourthAmendment Bill (B69B-2002): 491Voting Mandate on the Constitution of South Africa Fourth Amendment Bill[B69B-2003]: 528Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2218Discussion:Notice of Motion by Mrs Nkonyeni: 701KROG, J:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 596Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1661Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1705, 1709Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1078, 1100Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1866Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1042Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1481Notices of Motion:eThekwini Metro Water Accounts Arrears: 354Durban Transport Routes to be put to Tender: 546The Threat of SARS in KZN: 967Reduction of Interest Rates: 1758Concern about Development in Ethekwini: 1976Protect the Independence of the Auditor-General: 2159Steps against Rapists: 2183
17Employ more Policemen: 2294Motions:Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 277IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2274Debate:The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2134Discussion:Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 539KUBHEKA M A:Notice of Motion:IFP not to be Abused by Right Wing Forces: 2367Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1412Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1343Debate:Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2223LUDIDI, Miss Z M:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1310Debate:The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2091MABUYAKHULU, M:[Minister of Public Works - as from 23 April 2003]Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1110Notices of Motion:Congratulates ANC on its 91st Anniversary: 10Political Harassment of Public Servants: 517Consolidate the Coalition Government: 2185Motions:Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 253, 284Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1133Debate:The Statement by the Premier: 1522Discussion:Remark made by Mrs Ambler-Moore: 340MACKENZIE, M M:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1806Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1672Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1715Vote 10: Royal Household: 745MAKHAYE, D H:[Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs - as from 23 April 2003]Announcements by the Speaker:Withdraws Statement re Mr Keys: 693Explanation in Terms of Rule 106(3): 2356Tabling of Reports or Papers:Strategic Plan for the Dept of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs: 1616Bill:18<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 642Vote 3: Department of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs: 1625, 1695,1744, 1753Notices of Motion:New Jacket for Mr Hamilton: 21, 29Measures against the Israeli Military Camarilla: 85Seating of the DP and NNP: 125Parties not to Accept DJs: 299Executive to Reflect Composition of the <strong>Legislature</strong>: 856Honours the Late Chris Hani: 964Passing Away of Nina Simone: 1757M Right Wing Elements: 2153Desist from Dirty Campaign Electioneering: 2192Motion:Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 327Debate:The Premier's State of the Province Address: 169MALAKOANA, M S:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2043Vote 10: Royal Household: 723Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1432Vote 12: Department of Transport: 879, 941Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1328Notices of Motion:Investigation into Imperial Car Rentals: 130Parties to Concentrate on Development: 296Rehabilitate Victims of Poor Upbringing: 352Investigate Fraud in the Dept of Housing: 522Rejects Allegation by the ANC: 705ANC to Respect Amakhosi: 2124Commends IFPs Provincial Conference: 2295Debates:Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2246Report by the Minister of Transport: 2342, 2370Discussion:Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2344, 2347, 2348, 2351MBATHA, E S:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1692Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1068, 1102Vote 12: Department of Transport: 931Notices of Motion:King Shaka Airport not to be Owned by ACSA: 91Price Fixing in the Transportation Industry: 357Commends Treatment Action Campaign: 696Condolences to the Luvuno Family: 2122Motion:Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 280Debate:The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2142Report by the Minister of Transport: 2371, 2372MCHUNU, Mrs ABill:
19<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 7: Department of Health: 822Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1014Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1582Notices of Motion:House to be Responsible & Accountable: 355Youth to Refrain from Drug and Alcohol Abuse: 859Over-emphasis of Party Prominence: 969Congratulates Prince Zulu on Biography: 2125Motions:Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 343ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2428Debate:The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2100, 2101MCHUNU, E S:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 2: The Provincial <strong>Legislature</strong>: 1941Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1735Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2064Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1295Notice of Motion:Racist Statements by the DA: 2295Motion:ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2417, 2420Debates:Report by the Minister of Education and Culture: 419Report by the Minister of Transport: 2372MILLER P M:[Minister of Finance]Tabling of Reports:Aggregated Annual Financial Statements, 31 March 2002: 288Strategic Plan - Provincial Treasury: 853Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:The Budget Debate: 359, 391, 681Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1840, 1842, 1899The <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Withdrawal of the Bill: 2161The Amended <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003: 2162, 2167Debate:The Premier's Report: 29Discussions:Mr Miller Apologises to Mr Rajbansi: 971Discussion on Procedure: 2160, 2161MKHIZE, Prince S:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 10: Royal Household: 721, 726Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1460, 1467Notice of Motion:Respect His Majesty The King: 516Motion:Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 230Debates:Report by the Minister of Housing: 465Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa FourthAmendment Bill (B69B-2002): 50720MKHIZE, Dr Z L:[Minister of Health]Announcements by the Speaker:Explanation in Terms of Rule 106(3): 2387Tabling of Reports or Papers:Strategic Plan for the Dept of Health: 695Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 675Vote 7: Department of Health: 762, 836Notices of Motion:Point of Order: 860Commends the ANC for its Perspective on Zimbabwe: 969Debates:State of the Province Address by the Premier: 196Report by the Minister of Health in terms of Rule 10(2): 212, 449, 2309, 2314Discussions:Notice of Motion by Mr Hamilton: 708, 709Tabling of Strategic Plans: 711Good Wishes for Easter: 1611Distribution of Speeches: 2312MLABA, Inkosi Z M:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1023Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1496MOHLAKA, Mrs B S:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 2: The Provincial <strong>Legislature</strong>: 1927Vote 7: Department of Health: 808Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1301,2178Notices of Motion:Death of Babies at King Edward VIII Hospital: 89Investigate KZN Ambulance Service: 1619, 1623Crime at Pension Pay Points: 2119Media Concern re Trafficking of Women: 2160Motion:Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1148Debates:Report by the Minister of Health: 425The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2081Discussion:Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2351MTETWA, Rev C J:[Minister of Public Works - until 14 April 2003]Announcement by the Premier:No Announcements: 287, 847, 961, 1257, 2288Tabling of Report:Strategic Plan for the Department of Works: 1157Notice of Motion:Parties to Form a Joint Caucus: 1976Debate:State of the Province Address by the Premier: 142
MTETWA, S N:[Deputy Chief Whip]Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 12: Department of Transport: 915Debate:Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2228Discussion:Extension of Time for Notices of Motion: 85821MTHIMKHULU, M E:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2008, 2047Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1872, 1886, 1889Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1231Vote 10: Royal Household: 742, 752Notices of Motion:Best Wishes for the 91st Celebrations of the ANC: 13Investigation: The Mayor of Amajuba District Council: 87IFP/DA Alliance: 298Kingdom of <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> on Letterheads: 854Point of Order: 861Ukhozi FM Incident: 11611999 Electoral Mandate: 1264M Tension in the KwaHlomendlini Area: 2116Debate:Report by the Minister of Education and Culture: 394, 415, 417Discussions:Remark made by Mr Mzobe: 252Notice of Motion by Mr Gwala: 519MTHIYANE, M J:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1238Vote 10: Royal Household: 754Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1477, 1479, 1486Vote 12: Department of Transport: 911Debate:Report by the Minister of Transport: 2324MZIZI, M A:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1034Vote 12: Department of Transport: 940Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1321Notice of Motion:Condemns Abuse of a Child in Kempton Park: 1356MZOBE, M R:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 615Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1087Vote 7: Department of Health: 766Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1179, 1228Notices of Motion:Non-disclosure of Reports on the Arms Deal: 91Corruption in the Civil Service: 121Denigration of National Leaders: 350Motions:Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 246, 250IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2261Discussions:Remark made by Mr Mzobe: 247, 249, 252Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 539NAHARA, Miss F M:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill:Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1660Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1702Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1182Debate:The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2105NAICKER, S V:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill:Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1669Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1705Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1004, 1013Notices of Motion:Provide Tax Incentives for Export Trade: 131Illegal Squatters on Benoni Farm: 298Debate:Report by the Minister of Housing: 45922NDABANDABA, Prof L B G:[Minister of Education and Culture - until 24 March 2003]Notice of Motion:Departments to Develop Anti-rape Projects: 2361Debate:Report by the Minister of Education and Culture in Terms of Rule 10(2): 203,421NDEBELE, J S:[Minister of Transport]Obituaries and Other Ceremonial Matters:Passing Away of Walter Sisulu: 1755Tabling of Report:Strategic Plan: Dept of Transport 2003/4 to 2005/6: 543Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 577Vote 12: Department of Transport: 862, 949, 960Announcement by the Premier: 1613Notices of Motion:Members to Renew Drivers Licences: 132Amendment to Notice of Motion: 1624Debates:Report by the Premier: 23, 56State of the Province Address by the Premier: 133Report by the Minister in Terms of Rule 10(2): 2192, 2373
Discussions:Licence Conversions: 392Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2343, 2345, 2347, 2350, 2351, 235223NDLOVU, V B:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 666Vote 8: Department of Housing: 995Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1209Notices of Motion:Discipline Executive Producer of Current Affairs: 293SABC not to Distort Motion: 1162SABC to Investigate Mr Jabulani Sithole: 1351Debate:State of the Province Address by the Premier: 192Discussions:Remark made by Mr Mzobe: 249Distribution of Speeches: 979Changes to the Order Paper: 1551, 1552Good Wishes for Easter: 1611NGCOBO, Mrs L G:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 605Notices of Motion:Government's Attitude on HIV/AIDS: 90Removal of Indian Languages from Syllabi: 2189Motions:IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2270ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2427Debates:Report by the Premier: 44Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa FourthAmendment Bill (B69B-2002): 490Discussion:Sub Judice Issues Raised by Mrs Downs: 2392, 2393, 2394NGCOBO, Rev N W:[Minister of Housing]Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 8: Department of Housing: 972, 976, 980, 1045Tabling of Reports or Papers:Strategic Plan for the Dept of Housing: 963Notices of Motion:Drivers to Apply for New Licence Cards: 84Withdraws Statement: 126Control the Escalation of HIV/AIDS: 698Debate:Report by the Minister of Housing in Terms of Rule 10(2): 302, 483, 2300NGCOBO, P:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1096Vote 10: Royal Household: 751Vote 12: Department of Transport: 889Notices of Motion:Commends ANCs Good Leadership: 17Condolences - Bus Accident in Free State: 1617New Legislation Re Domestic & Farm Workers: 1913ANCs Victory in uMhlathuze Ward: 2118Corruption in the Western Cape: 2368NGIDI, S B:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 613Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1810Vote 2: The Provincial <strong>Legislature</strong>: 1947Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1105Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2005, 2058, 2061, 2062,2063Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1885Vote 10: Royal Household: 750, 752, 754Notices of Motion:Grade 12 Pass Rate in 2002: 16Condemns Cheque Book Politics: 545Mr D H Makhaye to Withdraw Remarks re Premier: 2290Motions:Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 271IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2279, 2281Debates:State of the Province Address by the Premier: 174Report by the Minister of Education and Culture: 414Report by the Minister of Transport: 2339Discussions:On Addressing the House: 274Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2345, 2346Sub Judice Issues Raised by Mrs Downs: 2391, 239824NGUBANE, Inkosi N J:[Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and Security][Acting Minister of Public Works - 14 April to 23 April 2003]Announcements by the Speaker:Invites Members to a Cocktail Party: 1546, 1614Announcements by the Premier:Invites Members to Premier's Annual Banquet: 1908No Announcements: 1969Tabling of Reports or Papers:Strategic Plan - Dept of Traditional and Local Government Affairs: 694Strategic Plan - Dept of Safety and Security: 852Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1163, 1243Vote 11: Department of Traditional and Local Government Affairs: 1359,1446, 1503, 1515, 1516Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1554, 1598Motion:Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 342Debate:State of the Province Address by the Premier: 180Report by the Minister of Transport: 2372Report by the Minister of Safety and Security: 2374NKONYENI, Mrs N P:[Whip]Bill:
<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1784Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1084Notices of Motion:Calls on Members to join the ANC: 355Comment by Prince G L Zulu: 699Fast Track the UNDP Process in KZN: 2125Debate:The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2077, 2102Discussion:Notice of Motion by Mrs Nkonyeni: 701, 702NTOMBELA, T D:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2073Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1186Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1454, 1458, 1466Debate:Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 223325PANDAY, K:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2031Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1020Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1389Notice of Motion:Establish a Professional Body for Liquidators: 301Motion:Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 223Debate:Report by the Minister of Housing: 479QOMA, S:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 624Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1680Vote 10: Royal Household: 747Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1420Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1488Vote 12: Department of Transport: 920Notices of Motion:Congratulates the UDM: 1269Thanks Parties on Behalf of Mr Holomisa: 2190Suicides Committed in Butcheries: 2294Motions:Order Paper Amended: 22Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1131, 1143, 1154Debates:The Premier's Report: 49State of the Province Address by the Premier: 163Report by the Minister of Education and Culture: 409Report by the Minister of Health: 441Report by the Minister of Housing: 475Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa FourthAmendment Bill (B69B-2002): 509Voting Mandate on the Constitution of South Africa Fourth Amendment Bill[B69B-2003]: 536The Statement by the Premier: 1541Discussions:On Adjournment: 393, 1146Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 540, 541Extension of Time for Notices of Motion: 859Changes to the Order Paper: 1551RADEBE, Dr B M:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 7: Department of Health: 807Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1016, 1032Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1207, 1215, 1229Vote 10: Royal Household: 753Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1479Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1566, 1594Notices of Motion:Ukhozi FM to Protect Listeners: 289ANCs Victory in Mkhambathini Ward: 1973M Passing Away of Mrs Lindiwe Kubheka: 2111Men Should Protect Women: 2156Mr T Leon not to Head KZN Dept of Housing: 2187Transport Forum Programmes: 2364Point of Order: 126, 2298Motion:IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2274Debates:Report by the Minister of Housing: 469The Statement by the Premier: 1535The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2101Report by the Minister of Transport: 2336Discussions:Notice of Motion by Mr Gwala: 520Remark made by Mr Christians: 1033Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2345RAJBANSI, A:Announcements by the Speaker: 2109Tabling of Report:Point of Order: 346Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 602, 636, 647Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1800, 1814Vote 2: The Provincial <strong>Legislature</strong>: 1935Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1115Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2051Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1006, 1017, 1029, 1031, 1034, 1049Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1225, 1226Vote 10: Royal Household: 732, 736Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1406Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1475Vote 12: Department of Transport: 896, 900, 904Notices of Motion:The DP and the Floor Crossing Legislation: 16Comply with the Employment Equity Act: 85DA Official in the Dept of Housing: 125Point of Order: 128, 2115Suspend Darryl Ilbury: 292Liquor Trading Hours: 34926
27Rule 105: Notice of Motion by Mr Bekker: 702Minister in Charge of the Dept of Housing: 855Rentals in Cato Manor Area: 968Legalise and Promote Cottage Industries: 1267Appointment of Capable MECs: 1356Treat Residents of Cato Manor Fairly: 1618IFP and ANC to Continue with Dialogue: 1756Investigate Exploitation of the Poor: 1913Funding for Schools for the Poor: 1974Investigate Appointment of Chief Director in DEC: 2118Reinstate Indian Language Educators: 2191M Reward for Service Excellence - Etekhwini: 2296Equitable Allocation of Funds for Culture: 2363Motions:Order Paper Amended: 22Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 234Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 279Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 323Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 547, 705, 1127, 1130, 1131, 1144, 1153,1156IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2256, 2268, 2278Debates:Report by the Premier: 36, 41, 43State of the Province Address by the Premier: 156Report by the Minister of Education and Culture: 406, 413Report by the Minister of Housing: 458, 473Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa FourthAmendment Bill (B69B-2002): 497The Statement by the Premier: 1537, 1539The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2139Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2215, 2216Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2240, 2245Report by the Minister of Transport: 2330Discussions:Speaker's List: 264, 266On Adjournment: 393, 1146Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 540, 541, 542Notice of Motion by Mr Rajbansi: 706Notice of Motion by Mr Burrows: 708Comment by Mr Rajbansi: 712Distribution of Speeches: 2314RAJU, M N:Notice of Motion:Applauds Zimbabwe and Kenya in Qualifying for the Super-Six: 295SCOTT, Mrs B:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 606Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1651, 1687Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2048Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1889, 1891, 1893, 1895, 1896, 1898Notices of Motion:Review Contents of the Order Paper: 966M ANC's Victories in By-Elections: 2187Motions:Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 83, 269, 275IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2254, 2256, 2279Debate:The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2145Discussions:Remark made by Mr Mzobe: 248, 250Comment by Mr Rajbansi: 712Discussion in Terms of Rule 99(a)(i): 1893SHABALALA, Miss L F:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1107Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1400Vote 12: Department of Transport: 929Notices of Motion:Wishes the ANC well on its Birthday: 17Disappointment with Minister Ngcobo: 122Congratulates Miriam Makheba on 71st Birthday: 300Respect the Role of the Media: 349IFP and Delivery to the People of KZN: 525The War in Iraq: 548Deploy Security Guards at Smero School: 2158DA not to Oppose the Terrorism Legislation: 2366SINGH, A:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 12: Department of Transport: 902Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1584Notices of Motion:High Court Decision on Disability Grants: 88Employment Procedures in Government Service: 353Iraq to Elect own Government: 968Motion:Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 326Debates:Report by the Minister of Housing: 463Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2251SINGH, N:[Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs - until 14 April 2003][Minister of Education and Culture - as from 14 April 2003]Announcements by the PremierExplains Premier's Absence: 345Faction Fighting in Ngudwini: 345Premier to Make Announcement: 1258Invites Members to a Cocktail Party: 2108Tabling of Reports:Illegal Developments along KZN Coast: 346, 347Strategic Plan of the Dept of Education & Culture: 1548Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 587Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 1978, 2069Vote 10: Royal Household: 722Notices of Motion:Provide Proof of Partiality to the IFP: 348Condolences - Road Accident Deaths: 1619M "Child Protection is Everybody's Business": 2154Motion:Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1136, 1149, 1151Debate:28
The Premier's Report: 52The Statement by the Premier: 1526SITHOLE, G:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 107129SLABBERT, J:Announcements by the Premier:Commends the Speaker and Deputy Speaker: 2429Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 650, 663Vote 2: The Provincial <strong>Legislature</strong>: 1952Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1682Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1730Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2049, 2062Vote 10: Royal Household: 749Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1424Vote 12: Department of Transport: 900, 924, 941Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1331Notices of Motion:Investigate Sexual Abuse of Animals: 1268Passing Away of Mr W Sisulu: 1758Upgrade the <strong>Legislature</strong> Facilities: 1974Motions:Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1131, 1144, 1154ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2409Debates:The Statement by the Premier: 1542Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2208Report by the Minister of Transport: 2331, 2373Discussions:Extension of Time for Notices of Motion: 859On Adjournment: 1147Changes to the Order Paper: 1551Good Wishes for Easter: 1613Distribution of Speeches: 2314SWARTBOOI, Miss G N:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 10: Royal Household: 744Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1325Notices of Motion:Investigate Social Grant - Mrs Merriet Khumalo: 2123Congratulates Bafana Bafana: 2184Debate:Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2204Discussion:Parliamentary Procedure: 1553TAMBO, Miss V:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 7: Department of Health: 795Debate:Report by the Minister of Transport: 232530THAKUR-RAJBANSI, Mrs S:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1675Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1722Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1090Vote 7: Department of Health: 815Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1201Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1316,1333Notices of Motion:Establish a Victim Empowerment Programme: 697CSG to Include Children up to 18: 1159Maintenance Act to be Enforced: 1621Implement a Village Adoption Scheme: 2121Investigate Mortuary Facilities: 2157Review Composition of KZN Youth Commission: 2188Implement Policing Programmes in the Province: 2360Debates:Report by the Minister of Health: 438The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2087Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2210Motion:Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 268THUSI, Mrs W G:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 7: Department of Health: 812Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1299Notice of Motion:Support National Minister of Health: 1621Debate:Report by the Minister of Health: 428VILANE, J S:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1678Vote 7: Department of Health: 826Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1571VOLKER, V A:Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 599Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1794Vote 2: The Provincial <strong>Legislature</strong>: 1933Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1712Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1870Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1011Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1194Vote 10: Royal Household: 734Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1398Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1473Vote 12: Department of Transport: 922Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1309Notices of Motion:Authorities to Deal with Road Carnage: 12
31Wishes the Protea Cricket Team Well: 83Mother-Tongue Education: 291Change of Name by the DP to the DA: 523Promote Economic Development in KZN: 550Promote Agricultural Productivity: 1267Position of Coalition Partners: 2121IFP & ANC to Govern Responsibly: 2357Motions:Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 263Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1130, 1141, 1147, 1148, 1149, 1153ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2408Debates:Report by the Premier: 37State of the Province Address by the Premier: 154Voting Mandate on the Constitution of South Africa Fourth Amendment Bill[B69B-2003]: 535The Statement by the Premier: 1534, 1536The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2135Report by the Minister of Transport: 2371Discussions:Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 539, 541On Adjournment: 1146Changes to the Order Paper: 1551Good Wishes for Easter: 1612The Distribution of Speeches: 2314Notice of Motion by Mr Gwala: 514, 515Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 539, 540Tabling of Strategic Plans: 709, 71032ZULU, Prince G L:[Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development]Tabling of Reports or Papers:Strategic Plan - Dept of Social Welfare and Population Development: 852Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1270,1346Discussion:Notice of Motion by Mrs Nkonyeni: 700XABA, V C:Tabling of Report:Finance Portfolio Committee Report: Budget Hearings: 539, 542Bill:<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003:Budget Debate: 551, 610Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2037, 2061Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1895Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1031Vote 10: Royal Household: 754Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1458The Amended <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Appropriation Bill, 2003: 2167, 2168Notices of Motion:Congratulates Mr Mbeki for Outstanding Stewardship: 130Call for Dismissal of Minister of Home Affairs: 292Point of Order: 517Steps to be Taken against Mr Barend Strydom: 1620Motions:Order Paper Amended: 22Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 281NCOP Delegates: 1606IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2277ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2412Debates:The Premier's Report: 24, 33, 62Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa FourthAmendment Bill (B69B-2002): 504Voting Mandate on the Constitution of South Africa Fourth Amendment Bill[B69B-2003]: 530The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2129Discussions:Amendments to the Order Paper: 8, 9Rule 97: 43Remark made by Mr Mzobe: 246, 247, 250
DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OFKWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATUREFIFTH SESSIONFIFTH SITTING - FIRST SITTING DAYMONDAY, 23 JUNE 2003THE HOUSE MET AT 11:06 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:2. OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERSTHE PREMIER: Mr Speaker, it is with sadness that we rise this morning in this House in sympathy with the Matanzima family with the death of K D Matanzima, who was buried yesterday. Weconvey our condolences to the next of kin for the bereavement that has befallen them. In the same vein, this House conveys its condolences to the leader of the UDM who buried his daughterover the weekend.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr Premier. I will request that you rise for a moment of silence.HONOURABLE MEMBERS STAND.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: May their souls rest in peace. Please be seated.3. ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION4. ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKERTHE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have two announcements to make. The first one is that I need to announce that the Speaker has informed me that he is not well and that he has been booked offby the doctor.The second announcement is that I am pleased to announce that we have two steadfast staff members who were able to run the Comrades marathon, and we wish them well in the future.They both managed to arrive in Durban. One of them arrived within the closing time and therefore was awarded the bronze medal. One of them arrived just after that. They are both in theSpeaker's Office. One of them is Samkelisiwe Simelane and the other is Philane Zondo.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!5. ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIERTHE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Premier?THE PREMIER: Mr Speaker and hon members, I have no announcements to make at this stage. I will do so at an appropriate moment. Thank you, sir.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Premier.
21826. TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS7. NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONSTHE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Edwards?MR B V EDWARDS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I give notice that on the next sitting day I will move:This House noting:the unacceptable high levels of unemployment and of poverty which currently exist in the Republic of South Africa; andthat in spite of numerous national and international summits on economic development having been held in South Africa, this has not yet brought about a reversal of unemploymentand levels of poverty.Resolves:to call on the National Government and Provincial Government in <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> to take bold steps to bring about a climate for high economic development with a view to increasingemployment and the alleviation of poverty.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr Edwards. Hon member Mr Krog?MR J KROG: Mr Speaker, I give notice that at the next sitting day of this House I will move:Noting:that during 2000, 52 975 rape cases were reported; andthat only 7,7%, that is + 4 100 were followed to conviction.This House resolves:to request Justice and Safety and Security Ministers of National Government to take the necessary steps.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Christians?MR A CHRISTIANS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I give notice that at the next sitting day of this House that:This House notes:that the DA convincingly won Paradyskloof, while Cloetesville came down to a loss by only four votes;
2183that the DA is now firmly in a two horse race with the ANC for control of the Western Cape; andthat the NNP is nothing but a political cash cow for the ANC;that by splitting the opposition vote in Cloetesville, the NNP handed the ward to the ANC on a platter; andthat by this happening now, the people that voted for the NNP in the Western Cape can see and understand the consequence of voting for the ANC's junior partner.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Keys?MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will move on the next sitting day of this House that:This House noting:that the press is under increasing pressure in South Africa and in the majority of sub-Saharan countries, in that,where the media, owned by the governments mentioned, have to dance to their master's voices;those that are independent have to toe the governing party's line or face harassment, intimidation or are forcibly closed; andFurther noting:that the SABC, as the ANC puppet, should be called the SANCBC.Resolves:to call on the SABC to break away from their political masters and provide South Africa with unbiased quality information and news service.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Miss Swartbooi?MISS G N SWARTBOOI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. On the next sitting day I will move as follows:Noting the important role Bafana Bafana is playing in boosting the profile of our country and to contribute towards nation building.This House resolves:to congratulate Bafana Bafana for making us proud as South Africans by playing so well yesterday and urge all citizens of our country to give their support to our National Soccer team.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister Mabuyakhulu?MR M MABUYAKHULU: (Minister of Public Works): Thank you, Mr Speaker. On the next sitting day of this House I shall move as follows:
2184Noting that:18 June marked four years of coalition government between the ANC and the IFP;This House resolves:that it has an urgent task to consolidate a co-operative government as a foundation for a stable and prosperous democracy in the Province of <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Gwala?MR M B GWALA: Mhlonishwa Somlomo. Ngokuhlangana kwaleNdlu ngokulandelayo ngiyophakamisa kanje.LeNdlu iyakubona:Lendlu:Ngiyophakamisa.ukuzinikela kukaMhlonishwa uNdunankulu walesiFundazwe uDokotela L P H M Mtshali kanye nesigungu sakhe sikaHulumeni ekuzameni ukulwa nobubha, nokweswelaumsebenzi, kanye nokuletha intuthuko kulesiFundazwe, izithelo ziyabonakala.iyayibona ingozi edalwa ngosikhwiliphambana nobhoko abaxhasimikhonto ukuze lesiFundazwe sidume njengesinenxushunxushu ikakhulu kuleNdlu yesiShayamthetho.LeNdlu iphakamisa:ukuba sicutshungulwe isiphakamiso esidala uhlevana olungenasidingo, noluletha inxushunxushu emqondweni yemiphakathi esiwumeleyo. Nokuthi amaqembuezombusazwe mawenqabe ukuholwa ngehaba ilaba abanezinjongo zokuxova ukuthula kulesiFundazwe esikusebenzele kangaka.TRANSLATION: Thank you, Mr Speaker. On the next sitting day of this House I shall move as follows:This House notes:the dedication that has been shown by the hon Premier of the Province Dr L P H M Mtshali and his Governmental Cabinet in trying to fight poverty, unemployment and the bringing ofdevelopment into the Province which is bearing visible fruits.This House is aware of the imminent dangers being perpetuated by the wayward people who are arming themselves in order to cast this Province, mainly this <strong>Legislature</strong>, as atroublesome one.This House resolves to investigate the submission that will cause havoc unnecessarily, and confuse the community that we represent, and that political parties should refuse to bemisled by those who are bent on polluting the peacefulness of this House, that we have fought hard for. T/E
2185THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon member Dr Radebe?DR B M RADEBE: Ngiyabonga Somlomo. Ekuhlaleni kwaleNdlu okulandelayo ngiyophakamisa kanje:ukuthi u-Tony Leon akayeke ukusuka kuHulumeni omkhulu azoxambukela la kwisiFundazwe. Uma efuna ukuthi athathe abe i-Head of Department yakwa-Housing akafakeisicelo, kulandelwe i-imigudu, aqashwe kodwa ayeke ukuyobamba itoho laphaya azoxova kulesiFundazwe. Sikhuza nabangani bakhe laba abambizayo ukuthi eze lasikhathele ibona basixova kwenele. Ngakho-ke uma efuna umsebenzi kwi-Department of Housing akafake isicelo mhlawumbe uzoqashwa.TRANSLATION: Thank you, Mr Speaker. On the next sitting day of this House I shall move as follows:1. Tony Leon should desist from reaping where he did not plough.2. He should desist from heading the <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Department of Housing and if he wants to head it, he should relocate the MEC Ngcobo to be the Leader of the Oppositionin the Central Government so that he could head it, and if he wants to be employed, he should tender an application. T/ETHE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Scott?MRS B SCOTT: I wish to move the following motion on the next sitting day of this House.This House noting:that on 11 by-elections held throughout South Africa on 18 June this year, the ANC won ten of them with a resounding victory. That the ANC slaughtered the DA and the DA whitestronghold of Stellenbosch wresting control of the DA ward.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.MRS B SCOTT: That the DA dropping its support from 49,6% in 2000 to 27,7%. A staggering loss of 22%. That in the sole ward won by the DA on 18 June, their support in that ward droppedfrom 85,63% in 2000 to 62,38%, another staggering loss of 23%.This House resolves:to congratulate the ANC on its National victories and its ability to attract South Africans of all race groups to its ranks in its fight for a true democratic South Africa. And to acknowledgethat the DA as a right-wing, white political party of yesteryear that will soon fade into political obscurity.The Speaker ruled the above motion by Mrs B Scott, out of order in that it exceeded the maximum of 100 words as laid down by Rule 136(1) of the Standing Rules.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Thakur-Rajbansi.MRS S THAKUR-RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:
2186Noting that:our young democracy has created opportunities for contribution by our youth; andthat the present four members of the KZN Youth Commission are all black Africans;This House resolves:to request the hon Premier of KZN to review this selection with a view to achieve regional and racial balance because all youth face common problems and need to be involved.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Ambler-Moore?MRS M AMBLER-MOORE: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I shall move on the next sitting day of this House that:This House noting:? the ANC favours the local government system of Executive Mayors;? that this Province favours the more democratic inclusive system of Executive Committees; and? Further notes with alarm the role the Municipal Manager of eThekwini has assumed for himself of being an acting Executive Mayor of eThekwini.Resolve:to call on the Minister of Local Government to bring Dr Sutcliffe into line with legislation passed by this House; andcalls on the ANC (in the light of recent allegations made) to discipline Dr Sutcliffe, that they abide by the Legislation of this House. Thank you.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Ngcobo?MRS L G NGCOBO: On the next sitting day of this House I shall move as follows:That in view of the fact that the National Minister of Education has taken a decision that all the Indian languages spoken in this country are to be removed from the school syllabi;That the South Africa Indians have been in this country since the 1840s;That the South African Indians constitute the second largest population group in this Province which has contributed to the economy, the intellectual and cultural development of thisProvince;
2187That the cultural religious component of this group of South Africans remain sacrosanct;That the decision therefore contravenes the rights of these fellow South Africans and this House does not support it.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Combrinck?MR H L COMBRINCK: (Deputy Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, the IFP moves that the IFP upholds good governance views and the violation of the above as a betrayal of trust to the electorate.We will debate it this afternoon. Thank you, Mr Speaker.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Qoma?MR S QOMA: Ngibonge Somlomo. Ekuhlanganeni kwaleNdlu okulandelayo ngiphakamisa kanje:Siyabonga.i-UDM ithanda ukubonga wonke amaqembu ezepolitiki ukubambisana nokuzolilela uMongameli we-UDM uBantubonke Holomisa eshiywe indodakazi yakhe. Nemiyalezoyamaqembu onke kusukela kwiNkosi Isilo saMabandla, kanye ne-First Lady uMama uMbeki, noMama weSizwe u-Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, uMhlonishwa uSbu Ndebele,uMhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe uDumisane Makhaye, uMhlonishwa uMntwana u-Gideon Zulu, uSihlalo woZihlalo uMhlonishwa uBheki Cele wafika naye. Sibonge neqembulonke le-UDM.TRANSLATION: On the next sitting day of this House I shall move as follows:The UDM would like to extend its thanks to all political parties in co-operating with the UDM President Bantubonke Holomisa when mourning his daughter's death. And the parties'messages from His Majesty the King and the First Lady, Mrs Mbeki, the mother of the Nation, Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, hon S'bu Ndebele, hon Dumisani Makhaye, hon PrinceGideon Zulu, the Chair of Chairs Mr Bheki Cele, who also attended as well as the entire IFP party. T/ETHE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Rajbansi?MR A RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:That it be resolved:to request the hon Minister of Education and Culture of this House as follows:That those Indian language educators whose services were terminated be reinstated as they cannot be replaced; andThat the Minister determines a Provincial Policy in respect of the teaching of Indian languages in our schools notwithstanding the utterances of the National Minister of Education.
2188THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister Makhaye?MR D H MAKHAYE: (Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs): Mr Speaker, on the next sitting day I shall move as follows:Noting:the serious allegations that the Democratic Alliance has approached certain journalists and editors especially within the print media to become its propagandists in besmirching leadersof the ANC.that some editors have become part of drafters of DA press statements as speech writers; andthat the DA and newly found fellow travellers are intending to embark on a dirty campaign election strategy.This House resolves:to warn those who engage in dirty campaign electioneering not to be cry babies when they meet the wrath of our people.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: That concludes the notices of motions for this morning. We then proceed to the next point on the Order Paper.8. ORDERS OF THE DAYTHE DEPUTY SPEAKER: In terms of 8.1, we will receive the report by the MEC for transport, hon Minister Ndebele.8.1 REPORT: THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT IN TERMS OF RULE 10(2)MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is the report on the Youth Programmes requested by this <strong>Legislature</strong>, seeing that it is youth month.Mr Speaker, hon members of the Provincial <strong>Legislature</strong>, both the church and roads have their critics. However, the fundamental commonality between the church and the road is that they arethe only certain route for human beings to get to their ultimate destinations.The Department of Transport has been at the forefront of the country's road safety initiatives. There are several programmes that have been started in the Province that have ended up asnational plans. We speak here of programmes such as Asiphephe, which has now been termed Arrive Alive, the Public Transport Enforcement Unit (PTEU) and the Taxi Industry SkillsDevelopment Project, among others. These entire programmes have been done with one thing in mind - the safety of our people. Among our people we do, of course, include our youth, whosemonth we celebrate now.There is no doubt that the youth have always played a catalytic role in the development and liberation of South Africa. It was the youth of 1876, primarily young women, who dared to demandthe freedom of choice - the right not to be assigned a husband, but to choose their life partner of their own free will.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!
2189MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): These were women of the Ingcugce regiment. That right is now enshrined in our democratic Constitution. Exactly 100 years later in 1976, theyouth again produced further dramatic changes to our society. It is therefore our duty as adults in this <strong>Legislature</strong> to assist the future leaders, our children, in realising their full potential. Nodream can be realised when the dreamer's life has been snuffed out.ROAD SAFETY YOUTH PROGRAMMESThe Department of Transport, through the Road Safety Directorate, has three programmes in place that focus on the youth directly. There is the Young Road User. This programme targets thejunior pedestrian aged three to 14 years. The activities include Child in Traffic, Scholar Patrol and integration into school curriculum. Over 1 860 Child in Traffic workshops were held in eachregion of the Department reaching 338 schools and 282 000 learners.The second programme is the participatory Education Techniques project. The target audience here is secondary school pupils between 14 and 18 years of age. Pupils are required to identifyand find solutions to a road safety problem in and around their school environment. These problems are then evaluated by engineers and road safety experts and the winning school'sprogramme is implemented by the road safety section.Thirdly, we also have the student Driver Education Project. Youth aged 16 and older are instructed in the K53 method of driving. Presently this project is held within the Community RoadSafety Councils. Three members of the community will be identified by each Community Road Safety Council and these youths will be trained at workshops before they commence their annualdriving instructions.THE PUBLIC INTERNSHIP PROGRAMMEAnother way of ensuring the safety of young people is to stop them from wandering and exposing themselves to road related dangers. This we can do successfully with programmes that keepthem occupied and doing socially meaningful activities.Last year, the National Cabinet approved the National Youth Development Policy Framework. This policy addresses youth development across all sectors. It endeavours to ensure that youngwomen and men are given meaningful opportunities to reach their full potential.The National Youth Development Policy Framework 2002 to 2007 states the following, and I quote:Youth Development is part of building a non-sexist, non-racist democratic South Africa and it should be approached in a similar manner and with similar vigour as other crucial areas inneed of transformation, visual disability, gender and economic participation. This should be done in line with government's broad approach to fundamentally address poverty andunderdevelopment through comprehensive, integrated, cross sectoral and sustainable policies and programmes.At the recent Growth and Development Summit, at which the youth sector was well represented, one of the agreements was to create more jobs, better jobs and decent jobs for all. It was thenagreed that a range of immediate interventions were required and agreement was reached on the following:? To intensify the public works programmes and public investment initiatives.As the <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Department of Transport we will be the first government department to implement these agreements and also to respond to the President's call of Vukuzenzele.I am happy that after discussion with the Chief Executive Officer of the Umsobomvu Fund, Mr Malose Kekana, we have agreed that we will intensify the involvement of the youth in ourprogrammes and to provide training and temporary work for the unemployed youth to carry out socially useful activities. These programmes will equip young people with training and workexperience which should enhance their ability to earn a living in the future.
2190The objectives of the Department of Transport and Umsobomvu Youth Fund Service Project are the following:? To enhance the Department of Transport service delivery capacity and increase efficiency by reaching out to communities through the Youth Service Project.? To contribute to reducing youth unemployment by selected youth in a project that enhances their employability.? To support the National Human Resource strategy by providing training and work experience and opportunities to unemployed youth.The project seeks to achieve these objectives by taking participants through relevant technical training, posting them in selected regions and directorates within the Department of Transport andassisting them with access sustainable economic opportunities at the end of this 12 month venture.The youth will be trained by an accredited tertiary institution on both technical and administration skills. We will also engage the Road Accident Fund to provide training on their role and claimsprocedures so that we can also use our One Stop Shops as a place where crash victims and families can claim.These young people will also be given an opportunity to participate in road construction and maintenance programmes to ensure that we accelerate the pace of delivery, especially in ruralareas. The course will also include the private sector in this programme requesting them to absorb those who successfully complete the youth service programme.Success indicators will have to be drawn by both partners and must be objectively verified. The Memorandum of Understanding will sufficiently cover all partners' roles and obligations to ensurethat the goals of this project are met.PEDESTRIAN SAFETYIt is also not a secret that we continue to have many of our loved ones perish on the roads each year. During the month of April, 56 people died on our roads. A further 58 people died in Mayand up to 20 June 2003. We still find that more pedestrians die on our roads each year than other road users. For instance during the Easter period, between 25 and 28 April 2003, the deathtoll statistical breakdown for this Province was as follows:? Drivers - 1? Passengers - 1? Pedestrians - 8? Total - 10The statistic breakdown for the period between May up to 20 June 2003 is:? Drivers - 20? Passengers - 18? Pedestrians - 21? Total 58Seeing these statistics therefore compels us to look more closely at pedestrian safety in the Province, as research tells us that pedestrians are the most vulnerable group of road users.Research conducted by the University of <strong>Natal</strong> Interdisciplinary Accident Research Centre (Uniarc) highlights that road users perceived the Edendale road to be unsafe. Statistics proved that
2191this was one of the Province's most dangerous roads as far as pedestrian collisions were concerned. The KZN Department of Transport installed a pedestrian bridge over Edendale Road.Since the bridge was opened for use, there has been no reported fatality involving pedestrians in this area.AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): This bears testimony to the Department's resolve to reduce road related collisions in partnership with the community.As a further method of ensuring that the whole community is safe, including the youth, we have installed intelligent road studs, and recently launched them in the Melmoth to Ulundi Road. TheDepartment has introduced groundbreaking technology promising to dramatically curb the rate of accidents happening at night on the Province's roads. The self-illuminating studs or "cat eyes"light up road markings a way ahead of the vehicle, even in the worst weather conditions.The Ulundi-Melmoth Road is characterised by many bends and rises. In addition sections of the road frequently experience poor weather conditions, especially fog. Under the circumstancesconventional studs, which work on the reflection of the car's headlights, had been ineffective and night driving in particular had been hazardous. We have chosen this road for piloting the newIntelligent Road Studs (IRS).Most of the deaths in the area were fatalities during the night, and with the road studs which are clearly visible from almost 800 metres, it has saved many lives.The 10 times extended visibility ahead means that the driver has enough reaction time to a road hazard. There have been no accidents in the six months of the project. The new technology,which uses solar cell, has many other applications, including lighting up pedestrian crossings. According to the suppliers of the IRS in the US there had been an 80% reduction in crashes atpedestrian crossings. We will roll out the project on to the rest of the Province.SIYABONA BONAKALAThe process of re-issuing driver's licences to some 700 000 citizens of the Province has brought to the fore some interesting areas of concern. Failure rates of the eye tests offered at testingstations beg the question: How many people on our roads cannot see clearly, and how does this impact on the ability of our citizens to drive safely - especially at night? Another question iswhether the public transport drivers, especially taxi drivers, are themselves roadworthy?The Department has, as per international standards, always examined issues of sobriety, fatigue and vehicular condition. However, no attempt has been made to clarify whether there is a linkbetween the accident and the driver's ability to see clearly.Of course, you may say, every person with a licence has had an eye test. However, we wish to say instead that, not only should they be fit to pass the test, but that they can see twice as well asthat test demands - with 6/6, perfect vision. Fellow road users deserve nothing less, and there should be as little margin for error as possible.Though optometry services and glasses supply is just becoming available in some public hospitals of <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>, the urgency of the question of vision and road safety compels theDepartment to take a serious and pro-active stance.The campaign Siyabona Bonakala will be launched to ensure that all those who drive on our roads can see clearly. Those who fall under the auspices of the Transport Department: busservices, taxi services and ultimately all those who drive government vehicles, must be screened by a professional and given a pair of affordable spectacles if they need them. We areproposing that a basic pair of glasses should cost between R60 and R250, depending on the prescription. We therefore want to introduce public sector delivery of eye care services and in theprocess produce a model for eye care in the public sector for the ultimate benefit of the patient.The debate of whether drivers can see clearly must always be married with a programme that will assist those who cannot. No government wishes to enforce legislation with the concurrent
2192fallout of making criminals of those who simply cannot afford the solution.In the case of vision and vision screening, for which there are bound to be failures, legislation allows for persons who have failed their eye test to approach an optometrist. This person will thenbe supplied with glasses. However, the sad fact of this country is that it is precisely those who fail, who just do not have glasses simply because they cannot afford them.In this way, a driver, who may be the sole breadwinner, will lose his licence, lose his job, and in this way whole families are condemned to lives of poverty. It is not our intention to enforcelegislation and paralyse a person's ability to earn. Let it never be said that a family must starve simply because the principal breadwinner cannot afford a pair of glasses.The Department therefore undertakes - through a series of strategic alliances - to ensure that optometrists are made available and glasses are made affordable to all those who fall under ourumbrella. People also need to be screened for those diseases which impact on vision: our chronic diseases of diabetes, hypertension and glaucoma. Any of these can rob a person of theirsight - and we must ensure that those who rely on their sight to earn a living need not live in fear of losing their sight if this is preventable.Not only will we then be able to say that those on our roads who drive are able to see clearly, we are also able to contribute significantly to improving the quality of life of all our citizens.The Siyabona Bonakala campaign will initially focus on ensuring that the eye screening procedures employed in our traffic directorates across the Province are entirely uniform. This training willbe undertaken by an optometrist in August. This is to ensure that whatever screening takes place is of the same standard as that offered currently to those who have their eyes screened inprivate practices.The standardisation will also allow for the statistical evaluation of the extent to which poor vision currently impacts on the ability of our citizens to drive safely. This long term strategy willsupplement the Department's commitment to addressing this issue as a matter of urgency.We are also committed to joining hands with the private sector. The third biggest block of road users are those employed as long-haul truck drivers. If businesses can ensure that their drivershave been screened and offered affordable spectacles, they will adopt a significant role in stemming the carnage on our roads.Siyabona Bonakala will examine issues of visibility on our roads. The majority of our road deaths involve pedestrians, and the Siyabona Bonakala campaign will concentrate, among otherareas, on school children currently walking to school in the dark, reclaiming our pavements, and rural pedestrians who at night may be invisible to the taxi they are trying to hail. The Departmentis confident that in pro-actively addressing the issue of whether people can see, and be seen, we will move forward significantly in addressing previously unidentified areas of concern.THE PUBLIC INTERNSHIP PROGRAMMERoad crashes have become almost a part of South Africa's public transport landscape. Frequently we hear, see or read about a bus or taxi that has overturned and killed numerous passengersin the process. The <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Department of Transport condemns these kinds of incidents as they are unnecessary and uncalled for. Passengers board taxis and buses to reach thedestinations safely and comfortably, not to be harassed and ultimately killed in road crashes.It is a well-known fact that more than 65% of people in South Africa use taxis as their mode of transport. It is also true that the taxi industry has been characterised by chaos and violencecaused by neglect during apartheid years.As early as 1995, the National Taxi Task Team identified lack of education and training as one of the major hindrances to economic development and a contributory factor to the high taxi relatedroad crashes and disputes. This factor also formed part of the recommendations of the Alexander Commission. To respond to these recommendations, the <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Department ofTransport took an initiative to implement the skills development programme for the taxi industry in the Province.In 1998 the <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Department of Transport initiated training sessions for taxi drivers in Port Shepstone, Pietermaritzburg, Wentworth and Empangeni. This training focused on driver
2193training attitudes, advanced driver training, customer care and anti-hijacking. The success of the training motivated the <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Department of Transport to start working with theTransport Education and Training Authority (TETA) in 2001 with the aim of providing education and training, which is in line with the National Skills Development Strategy. The ultimate goal ofthe whole exercise was the formalisation, democratisation and legalisation of the taxi industry so that it could compete equally with other professional businesses.Before outlining facts about the Nqutu Taxi Driver Training Project, I think it is necessary to state that:? there are 22 000 minibuses in <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>.? the taxi industry in <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> spends about R2,5 million monthly on fuel.? the taxi industry in <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> spends about R20 million per month on insurance.? the taxi industry in <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> spends about R2,5 million monthly on repairs.Having outlined that state of the taxi industry in <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>, I feel it is important to explain certain fundamental facts about the skills development project at Nqutu. The <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>Department of Transport, in co-operation with the taxi industry, has completed a pilot project in Nqutu training 150 taxi drivers and 150 taxi owners in road safety and business developmentmanagement. Of all the people who registered for this course we have had 100% attendance and participation. We achieved this with co-operation from the local municipality and the local taxiindustry. With 252 taxi associations in existence one would wonder how Nqutu became a pilot site. KWANATACO set certain criteria for the launch of this project, based on the standardsdescribed below:? The site must be organised, disciplined and violence free.? The site must be from a rural area.? Travelling and training centres must be at minimum costs in terms of transport and time.The KZN Transport Department has invested R1,2 million in this groundbreaking project (a first in the whole country) and its success has guaranteed that we will be extending the venture toother regions of <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> and to other provinces.For this financial year, we have budgeted another R1,2 million for this project. In August we will start with the second leg of this project by training the 160 Executive Members of the regionaltaxi councils. This will then be followed by training of another 200 drivers from across the Province selected by their regional taxi councils. This project will continue for the coming three yearsto cover all 22 000 taxi drivers currently on our database.Our approach to Road Safety is that we wish to include everyone who uses private and public roads in our campaigns to save lives. We have, to date, approached the Executive of the<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Agricultural Union, KWANALU, with the intention of assessing the number and distribution of driver training centres in the agricultural sector. We also wish to determine gapswhere they existed, with a view to providing a service that will meet the needs of smallscale farmers. It is anticipated that the Department of Agriculture will play a co-operation and supportiverole in this process. The Road Traffic Inspectorate will co-ordinate the testing of drivers and support driver training. To this effect we have already ordered over 2 000 isiZulu learner's licenceinstruction guides to be used as teaching material.Whereas, presently most of the driver training facilities for the agricultural sector are in the hands of the corporates, it will be necessary to extend such training to emerging farmers.CONCLUSION
2194The <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Department of Transport is very much committed to Zero Tolerance. As I have indicated, our Zero Tolerance goes hand in hand with education and training. You will recallthat on 6 May, during a memorial service of the 13 children that died in a taxi crash at Emalangeni in Umzinto, I promised to expedite the process of skills development within the taxi industryand I mentioned specifically this Project as one of our efforts in ensuring skills development in this sector.You will also remember that the incident was caused by two taxi drivers who were playing a game called "Chicken". When we launched the Public Transport Enforcement Unit on 26 August lastyear, the primary objective was to make a safe road environment through enforcement of traffic regulations within the public transport industry of which youth, pedestrians and taxis form part.Thus, with the success of these projects, all components of our Zero Tolerance campaign are to be accomplished. We cannot allow our youth to continue being robbed of a bright future by roadcollisions. It is the reason why we say Road Safety is something that you do not do TO a community, it is something that you do WITH a community.Asiphephe!I thank you.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Minister. The next matter on the Order Paper is 8.2.In terms of the list submitted to me, the first speaker is Miss G N Swartbooi.8.2 DEBATE: SPECIAL DEBATE TO CELEBRATE YOUTH MONTHMISS G N SWARTBOOI: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for this opportunity. This month of June our country remembers and celebrates the heroic deeds of the younger generation of youth born outof the 1976 student uprising where they paid the price with their lives to push back the boundaries of racial segregation.The legacy of colonialism and apartheid caused the majority of people, especially Africans, to live in conditions of poverty. Millions are still unemployed and the crime rate remains high. Peoplehave to face social illnesses such as HIV/AIDS.We are not going to forget about the past as the Leader of the Democratic Alliance, Mr Tony Leon, suggested in the Sunday Times. We want our children and youth to know about thecasualties of this scourge of poverty, racial and gender inequalities that still remain as a blot on our noble ideals.When we remind our youth of what happened in the past, Mr Tony Leon says we are playing a race card. He has a fear and wants to run away from the truth but the struggle against racism willstill be with us for a long time, and the legacy of colonialism and apartheid will be with us for a long time.Mr Speaker, we commend the Minister of Transport, the hon Mr S'bu Ndebele, for outlining what his Department is doing for the youth of our Province. What the Department of Transport isdoing is exactly what the President of our country, the hon Mr Thabo Mbeki, is saying.In the ANC today the President has also indicated that our movement has a particular vision about our country and its future. We want to see all our people, regardless of race, colour, genderor location, living together in a united South Africa as equals. We want to build a united, non-racial and non-sexist society with our citizens sharing a common patriotism.Mr Speaker, we are pleased to note that the government realises the importance of youth empowerment and development in order for us to achieve our goal of making our country a truly nonracialand non-sexist democratic society.
2195The youth, as they have fought in the struggle of liberation should not fold their hands and wait for the government, but they should continue to fight for their empowerment and development,participating in community youth service development programmes and making use of the structures formed by our government, working in partnership with the National Youth Commission,Umsobomvu Youth Fund, South African Youth Council and other various societal institutions.Youth organisations should also work with the NGOs in the communities to push back the frontiers of poverty for a better life for all.Mr Speaker, we are pleased with the way government is responding to the challenge of youth empowerment and skills development. This year, 2003, two youth development programmes shallbe considered. These are the National Youth Service programme and the Integrated Sustainable Youth Economic Participation programme.The government has also announced that by the year 2004 it will recruit 50 000 youth for the learnership programmes.Furthermore, government has announced that youth development will become a critical component of Black Economic Empowerment, the BEE strategy. The youth will gain from opportunitiesarising out of the government land reform programmes, including those that will emerge from the establishment of co-operatives and the availability of micro credit for development purposes.We want young farmers and youth who can play a meaningful role in agricultural development and economic growth.In conclusion, we want to encourage the youth to participate in development and move away from drugs. The tide has turned. Let us build a people's contract for a better South Africa. I thankyou.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The next on the speaker's list is the hon member V A Volker, and I have been advised by the hon member, Mr Edwards, that Mr Volker has had to urgently go to thedoctor because of health problems. I have further been advised that therefore there will be no participation by the New National Party in this debate. That leaves us with the next person on thespeaker's list, Mrs J M Downs. The hon member has five minutes.MRS J M DOWNS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to start by making a little pun, saying "A country without youth is useless." That is a fact. We need to really praise the youth for thepart that they took in the struggle, but more than that, we need to rebuild the youth of our nation as it stands today.We have a problem in our country, we all realise this, with the breakdown of family units, discipline among our youth, the rising tide of AIDS, with various problems like drugs being bled into ourcountry by foreign nationals, and various issues that are taking place with our youth. What we need to do is give our youth a new vision, purpose, structure, hope, a new way where they canfeel that they have a chance to participate in our country.There are a lot of things that we have mitigating against the participation of our youth. One of them is the poverty cycle. We still have a problem with lack of education in our senior schoolswhere maths and science are really poorly pushed forward and poorly demonstrated within our schools. We have issues where our youth are marginalised because once they leave school theyare not able to get a job.As a country we need to focus on methods by which we can franchise a disfranchised youth. We have a huge issue to deal with. There are a number of steps we need to take. The first, andthe basis for all societies, is a moral contract with our people. We need to talk to our youth about the harmful lifestyle that can destroy them, their house and their future.We also then need to put in place proper educational systems whereby our youth can leave school knowing that they have something to do once they have left school. I advocate a furtheranceof FET programmes to encompass 90% of school leavers who have not got a chance to continue with tertiary education. I believe our government should be pouring money into that particular
2196aspect.One of the problems of unemployment is that our unemployment is largely due to structural reasons, and one of those reasons is that we do not have skilled labour to be able to do that. Thatlargely affects the youth and their ability to get jobs.The third thing that we have to look at is the HIV/AIDS pandemic. It is hitting our youth. It is hitting in an area where we are going to feel it hugely. Our youth are coming up to be our mosteconomically active population, and it is that area where the HIV/AIDS virus is hitting severely. We need to stop equivocating, we need to stop pushing forward programmes like Love Life, andwe need to push forward programmes, I read about it in the newspaper but cannot remember the name of it, that are talking about abstinence, values, saving ourselves, giving messages to theyouth that they are valuable and that their bodies are valuable.We need to focus on those kinds of programmes, and not programmes telling children to condomise, because condomising is not safe in the long run.AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!MRS J M DOWNS: People still contract HIV/AIDS even if they use condoms. We have to look at other methods of preventing HIV/AIDS and we have to change lifestyles. We cannot run awayfrom this. We may seem like old "fuddy duddies", but we have to put our message across.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: One minute for the hon member.MRS J M DOWNS: There is no other way. The third thing that we have to do is look at controlling the influx of drugs that is affecting our society. We may think it is not a significant problem inthe rural schools. I beg to differ. New research is showing every day that drugs are finding their way into all levels of our society. It is a major problem. We have no programmes and nostatutory obligations and laws in place which allow us to deal with children under 18.Does this House know that children under 18 are not allowed to be placed into a drug rehabilitation facility? They have to be put under the welfare system, and it does not work. We need torelook at what we are doing in terms of those facilities so that we can help our youth properly. I would like to encourage this House to look at those issue. Thank you, Mr Speaker.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. The next on the speaker's list is hon member Mr Qoma. The hon member has five minutes. In the absence of the hon member from theHouse we will then proceed to the hon member Mr J H Slabbert for five minutes as well.MR J SLABBERT: Thank you, Mr Speaker. In debates like this the old saying, "The youth of today are the leaders of tomorrow" always crops up. This is often used as a lead into criticisingthe youth for being lazy, uncommitted, spoilt and not worthy of filling our shoes. Even this is nothing new. It has been said of the youth by elders from time immemorial. We are self-righteouslytrying to instil in the youth the values, traditions, beliefs and virtues that we believe in, in order for them to carry that forward when we hand over the reins. Often selectively so. When it suits usa cellphone and a motorcar are all right, but please do not tell us that democratically elected leaders in local government should replace the traditional leaders of the past.AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!MR J SLABBERT: In a rapidly changing world many of the institutions and traditions that we want to protect today will only be impediments in a world of tomorrow. The real message to theyouth is that indeed they should not simply accept what they inherited, but that they should critically evaluate what should be retained and what needs to be changed.Mr Speaker, whatever we do, the youth will always rise to the occasion. Young South Africans fly into space and have scaled the highest mountains. They are not only aspiring to reach thehighest levels which few have achieved.
2197Last night I was served in a restaurant by a young girl from a very poor family. She is only in Standard 7 and is writing an exam today, but she is working. Her dreams were less spectacular butequally inspiring. She wants to be able to spoil her five year old brother and save to buy a motorcycle. They are the inspiration of tomorrow's leaders.Turn the old saying around and say: "The leaders of today were the youth of yesterday." What has happened to the youth of yesterday? What inspiration are we for the youth of today?It was interesting to note the different messages that the youth of yesterday acting as leaders today gave to the youth of today during the youth day celebrations. The President encouraged theyouth to take part in the reconstruction and development of our society. He placed at the centre the active participation of people as their own liberators from the yoke of social deprivation andpoverty. The total freedom of the youth of Africa will only be achieved when they are free from poverty and under-development. Here the President conveys an understanding that while historymay have left us with terrible burdens, it can be overcome.Mr Speaker, equally the leader of the NNP, Mr Marthinus van Schalkwyk, had a message of hope when he invoked the historic symbol of a brick as an instrument of protest thrown at thesecurity forces or through windows of schools that tried to enforce the system of separate education, to a brick as the building block of a new South Africa. Not as breakers, but as builders.The leader of the DP also invokes history, but in contrast. The values and the symbolic meaning of 16 June 1976, he places the youth of 2003 in the same position as the youth of 1976, andurges them not to stand by idly, but to stand up and tell the ANC Government that they are tired of boring speeches, broken promises and of being told that they are no good.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! INTERJECTION.MR J SLABBERT: I am not saying that, and evidently not you, sir.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: One more minute, hon member.MR J SLABBERT: To equip the minority government of 1976 with a democratic and government elected by the very youth of 1976 is outrageous and displays a lack of understanding of thehistory of our time. I hope Mr Keys will understand it now.This negative attitude and denigration of an important day in our history will not be remembered by the youth of 2003 as a great day in the life of the DA. Thank you, sir.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. The next hon member on the speaker's list is Mrs Thakur-Rajbansi for six minutes.MRS S THAKUR-RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Our fledgling democracy has created opportunities for contribution by our youth, hon members, so that our youth can realise their fullpotential as true citizens of our country. We have many hurdles to conquer that freedom also brings.The Minority Front truly believes that youth are under- represented in Parliament. There is definitely a lack of youth interest in political issues, yet these same issues greatly impact on their lives.The great challenge to our government and NGOs is to make democracy work for all South Africans. The Department of Education has a major role to play in order to create this awarenessamongst the youth. The Human Rights Commission has to conduct an aggressive public campaign with respect to democracy and human rights. Such pro-active measures will take our youthout of the this mode of apathy, primarily because our ordinary youth are very despondent, and they represent the vast majority of the youth.The biggest single problem facing the youth is unemployment, and yet this is the age category of our most productive workforce.HIV/AIDS is high on the increase because of the culture of moral degeneration creeping up upon our most vulnerable age group, our youth. The government has excellent policies andprogrammes in place nationally to turn around these negative issues, but hon members, this is clearly not happening.
2198The Minority Front applauds Black Economic Empowerment, because we believe that in order to reduce inequity, we have to start somewhere. Generating entrepreneurs means having toattract talented young people, that is TYPs, so that they can turn into TOPs, talented old people.Hon members, it is all about government creating a promising environment to help young people to help themselves. This means being able to effectively establish and to implement legislationto curb violent children, child trafficking, road rage, drug addiction and all these kinds of problems.The promotion of family values, good health and good education is paramount to our youth to change their attitude and to ultimately change their behaviour. Our leaders have to lead byexample so that our youth can emulate leadership. The Minority Front applauds the moral regeneration programme.However, we must have indicators to monitor the outcomes of such programmes because we must get value for your money and positive outcomes. Hon members, if we really want our youthto celebrate true democracy, then our government must be able to put our money where our mouth is.The Minority Front believes that we can start by giving our youth free primary and secondary education, because it is from birth to 18 years of age where most of our youth's formal developmenttakes place. The rest becomes history. All children and youth up to the age of 18 years should receive a child support grant if they qualify.This will prevent school dropouts, the increase in unemployment due to the lack of skills, the high increase in teenage pregnancy just to access the child support grant, better maternal and childhealth care, a decrease in high risk sexual behaviour such as teenage prostitution and a decrease in juvenile prisoners.Hon members, our taxpayers will certainly be getting their money's worth if things were done methodically in government and our youth will definitely celebrate.We are all learning, but credit must be given where it is due. The South African dream is definitely alive with projects like the Umsobomvu Youth Fund, about which the hon Minister ofTransport spoke at large.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: One minute more for the hon member.MRS S THAKUR-RAJBANSI: The Minority Front believes that this is a very good example of opportunities being created in South Africa to make the youth realise their potential.In conclusion, the Minority Front takes this opportunity to celebrate youth month with youth all over South Africa. Our youth need to be pro-active because the struggle has only begun.Freedom brings its own set of challenges and the Minority Front believes that a fully consulted National Youth Policy for South Africa will definitely prepare our youth to take up the challenges ofthe 21st century. Thank you.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The next hon member is Mr A Christians for nine minutes.MR A CHRISTIANS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. South Africa's youth are facing the "triple threat" of joblessness, HIV/AIDS and crime. These three problems affect all South Africans, but theyaffect young people most of all.? The unemployment rate among young South Africans is roughly double the unemployment rate among South Africans in general. In 1996 official unemployment was 25% and youthunemployment was 41%. Today official unemployment is 31% and some estimates of youth unemployment go as high as 70%.
2199? Young people, and young women in particular, have higher HIV infection rates than any other section of the population. In South Africa, one out of every four sexually active youngpeople have HIV. Half of all infected people get HIV before they are 25 and die before they are 35.? Most of the nation's prisoners are under the age of 23, and young people are the most likely to be victims of crime as well. Murder is still one of the leading causes of death for youngmen between the ages of 15 and 21. The South African Police Services estimates that a woman is raped in South Africa every 35 seconds. Most of those victims are young women.Women's groups say that a child is raped in South Africa every 15 minutes.The youth of 1976 marched in the streets to fight against apartheid. In many ways we, the youth of today, have a more difficult task. We have to fight against the triple threat of joblessness,HIV/AIDS and crime, and we are not getting enough help from our elders.The ANC Government has dragged its feet on HIV/AIDS. It has delayed providing pregnant mothers with Nevirapine and it is now trying to put off a National Anti-retroviral Drug TreatmentProgramme.Last year the Global Fund to fight AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria, tried to give <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> R720 million to fight HIV/AIDS, but the Health Minister Manto Tshabalala-Msimang blocked it.Now the United States has approved $15 billion to fight HIV/AIDS, but South Africa is not campaigning hard enough to get its share of the funds.On Saturday, 14 June, the ANC Government refused to set a date for a decision on rolling out anti-retroviral treatment. It just holds one meeting after another while President Mbeki sends theyouth of this country on a long death march.600 South Africans are dying every day from AIDS. The government must declare a National Health Emergency and make an urgent decision on an anti-retroviral treatment plan at its very nextCabinet meeting. The DA has asked them to do this time and time again, but they have continued to delay.Why will the ANC not do the right thing when it comes to HIV/AIDS? It is tempting to wonder whether it is because young people are the ones getting sick and dying. Young people do not haveenough of a voice. The ANC Government seems to acknowledge them only once a year on 16 June, and then goes right back to ignoring them. Meanwhile our youth, our future, is beginningto fade away.Every year on Youth Day, the ANC leaders make long, boring speeches about how great they were back when they were young, and how much braver and bolder they were than the spoilt, lazyyouth of today. This year was no different. The ANC is not telling youth the truth about South Africa's youth. The triple threat we are facing is something most of us could never have imagined.Today, 680 000 youth are growing up as AIDS orphans. At most only 21% of those AIDS orphans are being helped by foster grants from the government. We are witnessing another lostgeneration in South Africa, and we are afraid of what that means for our society.The ANC Government is more afraid than anyone else, because it has had ten years to make a difference, and it has failed. It has made promises to the youth of South Africa and it has brokenthose promises. Its youth organ, the ANC Youth League, has become a tool of the ANC leadership and a club for the "wanna-be waBenzi". Most of the time it just does what the ANC tells it todo and says what the ANC tells it to say. It supports the government do-nothing approach to issues like HIV/AIDS and Zimbabwe.The ANC Government spent R16 million on a National Youth Commission, but most of that money was wasted on telephones, travel expenses and fat salaries for the Youth Commissioners.For the same amount of money the government could have paid the university fees of 800 students for a whole year.The government recently announced that it would be extending the Child Support Grant to children up to age 14. That decision will not be implemented for another three years, and whathappens when a young person living in a poor community reaches his or her 14th birthday? Is that person no longer young? Is that person no longer poor?
2200Last weekend, the government announced that South African business had committed to raising the number of learnerships from 23 000 to 72 000. That is a welcome step, but it will hardlymake an impact on the lives of the millions of young people who are unemployed. The Umsobomvu Fund was announced five years ago, but it has only recently begun spending its budget ofR1 billion.The ANC Government is big on talk, but small on action. It is long on declarations, but short in implementation. It makes many commitments but has few achievements. The youth of SouthAfrica are upset and angry with the ANC Government for breaking its promises. And the ANC Government knows it.But what does it do? Does it take responsibility? Does it listen to what the youth have to say? No, instead the ANC leaders are lining up even more lectures so they can wag their fingers atSouth Africa's young people and tell you what to do.The truth is that when the students marched through the streets of Soweto 27 years ago, even the ANC was taken by surprise. The ANC leaders in exile and in prison did not know what to doabout the new protests. The youth led the way, and the elders followed.That is how it must be from now on as well. South Africa's youth do not want to be cadres. They do not want to be commissars. They want to be themselves. They want to be young people.President Mbeki said on Friday, 13 June, that today's youth are consumed by selfishness and the pursuit of personal material wealth as the most important objective in their life. To him we say,those who live in glass houses must not throw stones. The President himself spent R700 million on a new jet plane and R25 million on new vehicles for the Presidential entourage. That isenough money to give 15 000 young people decent jobs at a wage of R4 000 per month for a whole year.The President's own conduct has been questioned in connection with the arms deal and oil scandals that have shovelled millions of rands in cash to political cronies. Surely he and the ANCelite should be the last ones to lecture our youth about the evils of materialism.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Rajbansi?MR A RAJBANSI: Will the hon member take a question about the DP mayor buying a S320 car?THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, Mr Christians, will you take the question?MR A CHRISTIANS: Mr Speaker, this is about youth. Let the elders listen for once.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! [LAUGHTER]THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is another point of order.MR B H CELE: Hon Speaker, I will request that on the point of order Mr Christians withdraws that the President is spending money on aeroplanes. There are no aeroplanes for the President.The aeroplane is for the Presidency of South Africa. The President has no plane. It is for the Presidency. So withdraw that. He is telling a lie that the President has spent that money. It was adecision of the Cabinet and the plane is for the Presidency.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member?MR A CHRISTIANS: Mr Speaker, it has taken me one second. I have just changed it on my computer screen now. I will put Presidency. If the ANC leaders will stop preaching and actually
2201take time to listen to the youth of South Africa...THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member?MR B H CELE: Mr Speaker, he has not withdrawn. He changed it on the computer and that is not equal to withdrawal.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Christians, please can you do what is right?MR A CHRISTIANS: Mr Speaker, seeing that you are telling me to withdraw, I will withdraw it and I will change it.MR A RAJBANSI: On a point of order. No person is allowed to withdraw conditionally. He is withdrawing conditionally. He said "It seems that you are telling me to withdraw".THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you have said you are going to withdraw. Just withdraw it and then please proceed.MR A CHRISTIANS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I have withdrawn. If the ANC leaders will stop preaching and actually take time to listen to the youth of today they might actually learn something.They might actually hear that young people have great hope for this country. They might actually see that the youth want to help build South Africa and make a difference in our communities.They might see that what holds us back is not lack of will, but lack of opportunity.Leaders must set a good example for young people. Parents and teachers must provide guidance, and teach the youth right from wrong. No one can tell us who we should be. Not thePresident, not the ANC, not me as a young person, nobody.What we must do in this Province is give the youth the tools they need to succeed. We must give them the best education we possibly can. We must give them safe homes and safe streets,and fight the ANC Government for a justice system that protects our youth from abuse. We must give youth an economy that is providing new job opportunities. We must give youth a basicincome grant so that they can have money even if they are poor. We must give youth opportunity vouchers so they can take advantage of learnership and skills development programmes.Then we must give the youth the chance to show us what they can do.We are not the generation of 1976. So what? The youth of 1976 faced different problems and different choices. We are living in a democratic South Africa. We are facing the triple threat ofjoblessness, HIV/AIDS and crime. No one has the right to tell us that we should live the way they did when they were young.I must say that the youth do have a choice. They can sit and listen to President Mbeki tell us fairy tales about how much the government is doing for young people. By doing this we can let theANC Government continue to ignore us.Our youth can stand up and say something. Youth can stand up and tell the ANC Government they are tired of boring speeches, tired of broken promises and tired of being told they are nogood. This is what we must support.We can fight for real action against the "triple threat" of joblessness, HIV/AIDS and crime. We can fight for the rights of young people to receive opportunity vouchers, to claim basic incomegrants and be protected by a police service that works properly.We need the youth to lead us into the next ten years of democracy in South Africa. Only the youth can beat the "triple threat" and only the youth can show us the way and the youth are in thisProvince. They constitute 50% of this Province. I thank you.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. The next on the speaker's list is Prof Khubisa for 19 minutes.
2202HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!PROF M N KHUBISA: Mr Speaker, thank you for affording me this opportunity which allows me to make a contribution to this crucial debate around the celebration of the youth month. On thisday it is truly incumbent upon me to salute the youth of our country for the most crucial role they have played to bring about a democratic new South Africa. Together with their mothers andfathers and in their own special way, they stood up against all forms of socio-economic ills, deprivation and degradation. We remember them as noble valiants as we continue to witnessdemocracy dynamically unfolding day by day. We salute their toil. We salute their sacrifice, but suffice it to say, the struggle goes on.Mr Speaker, on 28 August 1963, in Washington DC in the USA, Dr Martin Luther King Jr, in his widely acclaimed speech entitled "I have a dream" uttered the following critical touching words:When we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to stand up that day when all God's children, blackmen and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the Negro Spiritual, Free at last, Free at last. Thank GodAlmighty, we are free at last.Mr Speaker, these words which were echoed 40 years ago still reverberate in the hearts, ears and minds of all the lovers of freedom. For us South Africans the message becomes even moreheart-piercing when we begin to think about the fact that nine years into our democracy we have not come to a stage where we feel that we have, at least, tried to salvage our youth from thedoldrums of illiteracy, unemployment, poverty, disease, want, apathy, despair and discouragement.We as a nation sit with a grim reality that says that a greater segment of our youth are without direction as a result of being unemployed, and a number of other problems which do not onlyconfront them, but to the worst, dim the belief in the worth of their own identity and even challenge their being confident in themselves. Our youth feel betrayed. They feel they have beenrejected. They feel weak because they are unable to stand on their own. They are incapable of doing that.As we celebrate the power of our youth during the month of June and as we celebrate the crucial role our youth played as catalysts to bring about a democratic order in our land, we need tocorrectly ponder and answer a number of questions regarding the role we have played to ensure that our youth which form a greater sector of our nation, favourably partake of the stakes of ourdemocracy.For me, and as far as I am concerned, in order to fully understand the plight of our youth, we need to be sure about the various categories that constitute them. Firstly, we have those that wereinvolved in the struggle, the activists who could not finish their education or their schooling career, hence chances of employment have proved to be slim. The doors are shut for them.Secondly, there is a youth that for a number of reasons also dropped out.Thirdly, we have another category of our youth that have no education and they never attended any school.Fourthly, there is a group of the young intelligentsia, the fundis. This group was encouraged to go to universities, technikons and colleges to get training in various careers, but for many reasonsthey are unemployed. They also feel discouraged. They have lost hope in everything. This also answers a question of why there is a low voter turnout among our youth.Finally, there is another group of our youth whose parents could not afford to send them to institutions of higher learning or tertiary institutions, but along the way the parents failed to foot thebills for their school fees and also accounts for their accommodation in flats. These end up getting piece jobs in hotels or others end up doing all sorts of bad things in order to get money fortheir education.All of these youth are vulnerable to many types of bad behaviour, but what is worse is that they eventually contract HIV/AIDS. They also feel that our system of government has betrayed them.Mr Speaker, I have deemed it fit to make such startling revelations of the situation so that we know what challenges are facing our youth. Before we try to suggest what must be done, I must
2203point out that we have another group that is rather not willing to do anything. They feel entitled to anything just because they were activists and they feel that something must come on a silverplatter to compensate them for their political activities or involvement.There is also another scenario and that is the school curriculum that has failed our youth and continues to fail them because it is irrelevant when it comes to making them employable or creatingtheir own jobs. With the certificates they acquire after graduating from college or university, they cannot be self-reliant or self-sufficient. This stark revelation of the challenges Mr Speaker, givesus a scenario of where to start to help our youth, and where to intervene.The picture that I have sketched points to one thread that cuts across all the above categories of our youth and that is the question of shattered dreams and expectations that remain unfulfillednine years down the road of democracy.This state of affairs, although it refers particularly to our youth, also adds another very bleak element to the very complex situation of socio-economic deprivation. As we celebrate the youthmonth and as we participate in this debate, we need to remember that the road to full liberation is still long and uphill. It is still uphill because in our country we still countenance a lot of socioeconomicdeprivation among our youth. This is further compounded and exacerbated by the fact that our youth in the most disadvantaged rural areas, in urban or peri-urban areas, still witnesssome inequalities among the youth across colour and racial lines.As we attempt to push back the frontiers of poverty, we need to remember that our youth from different racial groups cannot start the race at the same starting line for they carry baggage ofdiametrically opposed previous backgrounds. We can only be oblivious to this reality at our own peril. Evident and identifiable socio-economic gaps and inequalities which are residualremnants of the socio-economic onslaught of apartheid are still with us and they have to be removed.Mr Speaker, before I conclude my debate, I want to make a few recommendations and suggestions. I know for a fact that it does not help to bemoan the current conditions of our youth withoutgiving any solutions.? From the lowest grades of our education system to the highest grades, there is a need for a radical paradigm shift. A focus should now be on a school curriculum that emphasisesvocational, entrepreneurial, scientific, mathematical, technological, accounting and business skills. In short, a kind of school curriculum that emphasises skills must be offered. It mustbe comprehensive enough to cater for the potential of all learners, including those that are disabled. It should produce a learner who can compete favourably in the job market withother learners, even globally.? There is an urgent need to provide chances for practical experience for learners whether they are at secondary schools, high schools, FET institutions, colleges or universities, as is thecase with technikons. This will help in the amelioration of the problem of a need for practical experience when our learners have to be in the job market.? Our own <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Parliament needs to develop a programme called "Project Citizen". This project will be geared towards exposing our youth, be they at school or out of school,to all facets of the advancement of democracy.? There is a need for a Ministry that will cater for the Youth Affairs at national level and the Provincial <strong>Legislature</strong>s also need to have such Ministries as well. These Ministries will havevarious directorates that look into all aspects that affect our youth.? In the Black Economic Empowerment programmes we need not only encourage our youth to form or start their own companies. We need to empower them with leadership,management, communication and technological skills that will enable them to take responsible strategic and operational decisions as captains of companies or industries. Over andabove these they will need mentorship programmes and experts and specialists must be there to nurture, monitor and supervise them or navigate with them in their business activities.This will ensure sustainability of their businesses.? Our youth need access to funding. We can encourage them to be engaged in SMMEs, NGOs, CBOs, NPOs, FBOs or co-operatives, but without any seed funding or starting capital all
2204their attempts will end up in a fiasco. Our youth often complain about the fact that they register companies and organisations, but to get them funded is an enormous problem thatconfronts them. Their Close Corporations, NGOs or NPOs eventually become white elephants.? It is now high time we organise our youth and we empower them to access jobs from government departments. In short, they need skills in project management, tendering proceduresand how to keep books in order that they be frugal in handling finances.? Our <strong>Legislature</strong> should, over and above the youth programmes that we have, like the Youth Parliament and Young Women's Parliament, plan activities in close co-operation withdistrict councils and traditional authorities that will be geared towards the advancement of the socio-economic welfare of our youth. Such programmes which can be hosted in variousdistrict councils could allow the youth to engage critically in issues that affect their own socio-economic liberation. For the IFP the Revolution of Goodwill also entails working with thepeople in the decisions that affect their own destiny, allowing a fair share of independent expression and self-actualisation. For the IFP this is what underscores self-help, self-relianceand self-development. Our youth still suffer from the post-liberation blues. They think that they need to be compensated for their activism. Yes, we cannot turn our backs on them, butthey also have to be taught to be their own liberators and the architects of their own destiny.? Our Youth Commissions need to be vibrant and visible, for the majority of our youth still do not know how they function.? Umsobomvu, as the National Youth Fund, must come closer to the youth, for the majority of the youth only know the name and have not benefitted from this fund.Finally, Mr Speaker, I want to close with the words of His Excellency the President of the IFP, Dr M G Buthelezi, who recently said:I have said over and over again, that we might be achieving on a variety of issues, good policies and great legislative reform, but that we are failing there where it matters the most,which is in respect of the employment generation. People must be given the dignity and security of a job. We need to push back the frontiers of poverty. This is the time where trueleadership is about solving the problems with which the people struggle day in and day out. This is also the time in which the mark of true leadership is not in the politics of divisions,but in the politics of reconciliation. We must bring together the whole of South Africa which is willing to work together to solve problems, even the problems of our youth.I thank you, Mr Speaker.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Professor. Next on the speaker's list and the final one, the hon member Mr Kubheka for ten minutes.MR M A KUBHEKA: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the few minutes I have, to contribute to the debate that focuses on the role of the youth of our country in the process of transforming ours intoa truly non-racial, non-sexist, democratic and prosperous society.Let me start by correcting the wrong statements made by other hon members here in misdirecting their criticism at the National Government on other issues, that in this Province the youthissues are located in the Office of the Premier. It is this office that has to provide this House with information on the progress being made with regard to the challenges of youth developmentand empowerment. It is this office that must take full responsibility for the lack of vision in the Provincial Youth Commission.When we commemorate, celebrate or observe 16 June, Youth Day, we seek to demonstrate and express that our society has long recognised the potential of young people in working for abetter life for all.Practically, from the formation of the ANC Youth League in 1944 by, among others, a man who was later to become the first President of a democratic South Africa, to the historic students'opposition to the imposition of Afrikaans as a medium of instruction and the State terror as a response, and further to the Young Lions of the eighties who took the lead in responding to the call"Render South Africa ungovernable and apartheid unworkable", one message has always been loud and clear. This is contrary to what the hon Prof Khubisa has just said, and that message is,young people cannot be spectators of a process that will shape the future they will inherit. Of course, they will never allow their destiny and therefore that of future generations to be determined
2205by anyone other than themselves.As in the words from a song, "Rebel" by Bob Marley and the Wailers, they said and I quote:We refused to be what you wanted us to be,We are what we are and that is the way it is going to be.If you do not knowYou cannot educate us on no equal opportunities.Talking about my freedomPeople's freedom and liberty...Our freedom, the people's freedom and liberty has finally been achieved thanks to the courage of these generations of young people in leading the struggle for equal rights, opportunities andjustice.AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!MR M A KUBHEKA: They too, both dead and alive, know that their contributions were not in vain. The reality is that our public institutions today are populated by those who were themselvesyoung during the time of the history we refer to.Yesterday's brave students, yesterday's Young Lions, are today's lawmakers. They are today's administrators of the country.Hence our confidence that policies and programmes of a democratic South Africa will never fail the young people of today.In his address during the debate on the budget vote of the Presidency, 18 June 2003, President Thabo Mbeki remarked, and I quote:As we observe Youth Month, the Youth Day, once more we extend our salute to our youth and assure them that we will continue to work together with them for the improvement oftheir conditions of life, focusing on the challenges of youth development and empowerment.What yesterday's youth fought for, that is equal opportunities, has today been realised and the majority of young people are all out in an attempt to seize these.On the occasion of the 27th anniversary of the Soweto uprising, this is what the President again had to say, and I quote:I am happy to see that once more, during this 27th anniversary of the Soweto uprising, the youth of our country have rallied behind the call for `Youth Action to Seize the Opportunitiesof Democracy' - pushing back the frontiers of poverty under the banner of diverse organisations led by the National Youth Commission, Umsobomvu Youth Fund and the South AfricaYouth Council.This statement contrasted with what one has heard from the hon members, Prof Khubisa and Christians. It makes one wonder what history and what present they are referring to. What thisconfirms is that taking from their predecessors, the youth of today remains steadfast in the resolve that `we cannot be spectators of a process that shapes the future we will inherit'.Against all odds, including negative reference to them as a lost generation, yesterday's youth persisted in pushing back the frontiers of national oppression. Surely, in an environment that isconducive and not hostile, today's youth are demonstrating that they will not fail to seize the opportunities of democracy.
2206AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!MR M A KUBHEKA: The challenges of youth empowerment and development have since the dawn of democracy been as never before, central to the overall National agenda.The saying that "kill them while they grow" has been replaced by the true commitment to secure the children in securing the future.This is evident in specific programmes developed and implemented by various government departments, including those that the hon MEC for Transport, hon Ndebele, has just alluded toduring his address.I think we all know of the Youth in Agriculture Programme run by the Department of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs aimed at reversing the stereotype infected on our people, especiallythe youth, that working the land is useless.The President also spoke of a policy framework document for the scaling up of the National Youth Service Programme as already adopted by the Cabinet. This initiative is aimed at playing acatalytic role in enhancing the skills of our youth that hon Prof Khubisa is referring to whilst they are involved in community development initiatives.I appeal to this House and hon members to join the President and National Government in working to encourage all involved, including financial institutions, to implement innovative measureswhen dealing with our youth, so that the young people have the possibility to fully participate in the economy of our country.The Youth in Agriculture programme I referred to earlier on, I believe will help the youth in seizing the opportunities arising out of the governments land reform programme, including those thatwill emerge from the establishment of co-operatives and the availability of micro credit for development purposes.This entails access to procurement opportunities, promotion of Black Economic Empowerment in Agriculture, contribution towards land reform and rural poverty eradication and support to youngaspirant farmers so that they can play a meaningful role in agricultural development and economic growth in general.In this regard I am confident that the MEC responsible for Agriculture in this Province will not fail in engaging the Land Bank, as did the Land Bank itself in other provinces in availing land toyoung people.The challenge facing this House on these matters will therefore be to ensure our continued support for all programmes aimed at youth empowerment and development, to continue to impressupon our youth that the implementation of all the tasks we identified, requires that the youth themselves must play a vitally important role and occupy a special and forward place in the Nationaloffensive against poverty. <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> is not an exception and is part of the whole country.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon member is left with one minute.MR M A KUBHEKA: The equal opportunities, justice and freedom that constituted the cry of the youth and students of 1976 are here with us today. All that is required is youth action inparticular and the society's action in general to seize these opportunities. I thank you.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. We have come to the conclusion of the debate on item 8.2. Before we tackle the next debate we will now adjourn for lunch.THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE SUSPENDED AT 12:53RESUMED AT 14:14
2207THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: House resumes. I must apologise to you, hon members, the bells were rung a bit earlier. I hope the announcement was clear that we were to resume at 14:15. Onresumption of our sitting, we now debate the Transport Portfolio Committee Overseas Study Tour report in terms of 8.3. First on the speaker's list is Mr Mtetwa. The hon member has eightminutes.8.3 DEBATE: TRANSPORT PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE REPORT - OVERSEAS STUDY TOURMR S N MTETWA: (Whip): Angibonge Baba Somlomo, ukunginika ithuba. Angikhumbuze ukuba ngiyaqala ukuthi inyanga yolusha le esikuyona ngakho uma kunjalo kungikhumbuza ukuthiulusha lwethu alufani nathi. Sasingenakho ukuhlangana ngobobuhlanga lokhu esinakho yona. Inzondo nokunye siyafisa ukuthi iqhubeke kungekho kuyona.Uma ngibuyela kwingxoxo esinayo namhlanje, asibonge kunobhala ukusenzela iriphothi yethu yaleMashayineni yabanhle ngaloluhlobo enhle ngayo. In terms of i-decoration. Ngisho ukuthi chasahamba kahle Somlomo, neNdlu yakho ehloniphekile in general salibona izwe laseMashayineni nokunye nokunye. Kodwa in term of umsebenzi esasiwuyele khona nokwakuyinhlosomangisho Sihlalo walomhlangano ukuthi kunamaphushana kodwa amaphutha kufundwa ngawo esawabona sesisohambeni. Engikholwa ukuthi kokulandelayo kuyobangcono kunalokhu.Uyabona iphutha lethu lokuqala kulethimu yethu asibanga nayo ithimu zisuka okokuba silungiselele uhambo ikhande i-programme yonke. Sathatha sathembela kakhulu kuSihlalo, kanyenalabo ayexoxa nabo. Kuthe noma esesihlanganisa sacabanga ukuthi ayi izinto zilungile siyavumelana njengokujwayelekile-ke. Uyabona nje ukwanda lapho njengoba sahamba ngomhlaka la9 Inxusa lala eNingizimu Afrika size salibona ngomhlaka 12 sesihlale, salala, saphupha, savuka. Kwayikona sithola ithuba kodwa nalo selikhala ukuthi awu! madoda nivele nifike nje ezweniawu! kwayikona siqabuka nathi ukuthi ayi besicabanga ukuthi bakuthinta mhlawumbe ububhizi.Lokhu nje kukodwa kwanika ithuba lokuthi singalitholi ithuba le-briefing epheleleyo ngoba wayesi-brief nathi sesitatazela sesimi ngezinyawo, loko kuyobiza ukuthi ohambeni olulandelayosikubhalile futhi naseriphothini yethu siyancoma ukuthi kuleNdlu noma iliphi ikomiti elihambayo kungakuhle ukuthi Amanxusa noma Inxusa lakithi la ngaphakathi lazi. Kodwa okukhulu i-Department of Foreign Affairs yazi sithole ama-briefing sisanganeno more than ukuthi sihambe singaqondi kahle.Ingaloko uzothi uma ubheka umbiko wethu uthole izinto eziningi okukuthi sasihamba sibuka izinto zamasiko aMashayina nezingamagugu awo more than ukubuka izinto ezithinta i-transportngqo ngqo.DR B M RADEBE: Kanti nanivakashile? [Were you on a tour]?MR S N MTETWA: (Whip): Uthi uBhungane kusho ukuthi nanivakashile. Ngithi mina cha kufana nokuthi sasivakashile ngalokhu engikushoyo. Sagcina sesibuka izitimela nokwakhiwa kwazo,sesixoxa nabamabhanoyi sesilibele nawukuthi kambe i-competence yethu ayikho ezitimeleni nasemabhanoyini. Kodwa lokho izinto esifunda ngazo kuleyondawo.Angikusho Somlomo, ukuthi cha siyajabula ukubonga lona ithuba lokuphuma nje ngaphandle uyobona izinto ezenzeka kwamanye amazwe. I-decision yathathwa ile-<strong>Legislature</strong> yokuthi ikhipheamakomiti. Yanika amathuba okuthi sikhule emsebenzini wethu, ngale kokuthi mhlawumbe thina inhloso yethu ayizange iqonde ithi ngqo. I am sure ukuthi nabanye bayongifakazela kulokho.Laphaya kungaba iphutha uma ngingakushongo la Somlomo, ukuthi kunentokazi u-Miss Wang eyasiphatha ngohlobo esabona ukuthi awu abantu kanti baphathwa kanjani abantu bakwelinyeilizwe engihalelayo ukuthi nathi sibaphathe kanjalo abantu bakwelinye izwe uma befika la. Ubusuke nemini kunezikhathi lapho esasenza sisho izinto omunye owayengacasuka cha yonayayibekezele njalo njalo. Ngiyawezwa amalungu ePhalamende lana ayangincokolisa, cha mina angincokoli ngalokhu ngiqinisile ngempela. Vele phela yayingeke isiphathe sonke ubusukunemini.Ikhona indaba esayihleka kodwa ngiyafuna ukuyisho la ngoba iyiqiniso. Ngesikhathi silena sabuka sabona ukuthi awu lelizwe laMashayina liphethwe aMabovu i-Communist Party. Uyabonaindlela elihleleke ngayo nakuba kodwa sathi uma sincokola ngalokho thina sathi uyabona ukuthi aMakhomanisi aliphethe kanjani izwe, uyalibona licebe kanjani, sangavumelana sonke laphokuleyondawo. Kodwa ukuzwa imibiko abasebenzi bakhona bathi sebesebenzile bezohola bese bephinda benikela lento okuthiwa i-overtime pay ayikho kubona akuyona into ebalulekile
2208kangako. Amakhomanisi ayazinikela kulelalizwe Somlomo.Angikusho kodwa kafushane ukuthi kwiziFundazwe ezintathu esazihamba kusukela e-Beijing, siya e-Changchun, siya e-Shanghai sabona izinto ezihlukeneyo nezinkulu impela. Uyabonaindlela izimoto zakhona namatekisi okuningi ngayo...THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon member has one more minute.MR S N MTETWA: (Whip): ... awu! Bese uqhathanisa nezingozi ezivela khona uyabona ukuthi cha bayiqaphele. Kodwa mhlawumbe angikusho okunye esakubona kwesinye isiFundazwethina esiyentele ngakho sicabange ukuthi akukho serious. Sabuza indaba yobugebengu bathi cha ubugebengu abukho la. Kodwa ngiyakhumbula nje abafana sebedlula namahlombe ethubebaleka sebesithathile isikhwama komunye sabona ukuthi oh! bebevikela izwe labo. Nathi asokwenza kanjalo madoda kwabanye uma beza la. Ngiyabonga Somlomo.TRANSLATION: Thank you Mr Speaker, for the opportunity. Let me remind everyone that this is Youth Month and it reminds me of the fact that our youth is unlike us. We did not have interracialget togethers like they now have. We wish them progress that is hatred-free.Coming back to our debate today, we thank the secretary for compiling such a good report on China for us, in terms of decoration that is. I mean we had a pleasant trip Mr Speaker, and thehon House in general. We saw China and other things. But in terms of our mission there, let me state Mr Speaker of this meeting, that there were mistakes which we realised after we hadundertaken the trip. However, one learns by ones mistakes. I believe there will be improvement in the future.The first mistake of our delegation is that we did not have a team to do preliminary arrangements and compile a programme. We depended entirely on the Chairperson and those he wasengaged in discussions with. When he brought us together we thought everything was in order and we were in agreement as usual. To elaborate on that as we left on the ninth, we only metthe South African Ambassador on the 12th, after we had stayed, slept, dreamt and woken up. It was then that we got the opportunity when he was complaining that we just came into thecountry. We were then surprised because we were under the impression there was consultation and we thought perhaps you were busy.That created a situation where we were unable to get a full briefing as we were in a hurry when he gave us the briefing, and it is mentioned in our report that in any future trip to be undertakenby any committee of this House, the Ambassadors should be consulted. Most importantly, the Department of Foreign Affairs must be informed in order to get the briefing before we leave, ratherthat departing without proper understanding.That is why when you go through our report you find that most of the time we were going around viewing cultural and heritage objects, more than concentrating on transport related matters.Bhungane says it means you were on tour. I am saying: Well, in terms of what I have said indeed one may say we were on tour. We ended up viewing trains and how they are built and alsotalking to aviation officials forgetting that our competence is not on trains and aeroplanes. But those are things we learn about in a particular area.I must state Mr Speaker, that we are glad to get the opportunity to go outside and see what is happening in other countries. The decision was taken by this <strong>Legislature</strong> to despatch committees.It provided opportunities for us to grow in our work, though our goal was not achieved. I am sure that others will bear me out on that.It would be a mistake on my part Mr Speaker, if I fail to mention that a lady, Miss Wang, treated us in a way that taught us how people from another country are treated, and I wish we shouldemulate that in terms of how we should treat people from another country. Day and night there were times when we would say and do things that would irritate others, but not that lady. Insteadshe put up with all that. I can hear members of Parliament joking with me, but I am not joking. I am serious. It is true she could not attend to all of us day and night.There is a story I laughed about and I want to tell it here because it is true. When we were there, we noticed that China is ruled by the Reds - the Communist Party. You can see how orderlythings are in China, although when we discussed that, highlighting how wealthy that country is, there was a difference of opinion, but getting reports from workers there, that after work theydonate their overtime pay, for that is not very important to them. The Communists are very dedicated in that country Mr Speaker.
2209I must however, briefly state that of the three provinces we visited, being Beijing, Changchun and Shanghai, we saw different great things. You can see how many motor vehicles and taxisthere are - wow! When compared with the number of accidents there, you can see how careful they are.But perhaps let me mention something else that we saw in one Province, which we do not tend to take seriously. We enquired about the rate of crime and their response was that there was nocrime. But I remember some boys bumping our shoulders as they were fleeing after having snatched a bag from someone. We then realised that they were just protecting the image of theircountry. We should also adopt the same attitude when dealing with people from other countries. Thank you Mr Speaker. T/EHON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. The next hon member is Mr Ntombela for seven minutes.AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!MR T D NTOMBELA: Angibonge Baba Somlomo. Angisho ukuthi okokuqala uBaba oqeda ukukhuluma uMfundisi awu! kukhona impela athanda ukuthi angakuqondisi kahle, kanti phelaunguMfundisi manje fanele azibeke izinto njengoba zinjalo.Okokuqala nje angisho ukuthi Baba Somlomo angibonge kakhulu ukuthi ngibe ngingomunye owayehambile nekomiti lezokuthutha ukuya eShayina. Angiqale ngokubonga uSihlalo walelikomitiophathiswe ezokuthutha emakomitini uMnumzane Mandla Malakoana owasihola waze wayosifaka eShayina.Noma Somlomo, sesikhona eShayina wasihola kwezentalasipoti ezindaweni eziningi kabi esaze safika kuzona. Okokuqala nje mina David Ntombela ngavuleka amehlo uma ngilaphaeShayina, ngesizathu sokuthi ziningi izinto engangingazazi empilweni yami, kodwa ngazibona laphana izindaba ezinkulu. Saye safika lapho kuxhumywa khona amakhanda ezitimela,ngingazange ngibone kuxhunywa izitimela ngike ngizibone zihamba nje. Saye safika lapho kufakwa khona injini ezitimeleni ngabuka ngalawa awami amehlo. Sasihamba naye uMfundisiuMtetwa.Somlomo, engakubona e-museum yakhona ngadideka umqondo ngoba fanele ngiyisho lento. La ngafika khona komiswe abantu engathi umqwayiba. Kwathiwa asingene khona sibuke.Ngaphuma kuduma ikhanda kimina angizange ngihlale kwakuhlala ngibona abantu bomisiwe nezintshebe zakhona ngaphuma ngahamba. Enye into engayinothisha leyo, ukuthi ngempelaiyinkinga leyondaba. [UHLEKO]Ngashaqeka kakhulu Baba Somlomo, Macingwane, aMashayina izinto ayezenza lapha ngenkolelo yabo yokuthi - abantu abangaphezu kwamakhulu amabili eminyaka bashona wawubabonalapha belalisiwe nezintshebe zabo impela ubone ukuthi aMashayina olunye uhlobo lwabantu.Kuliqiniso ukuthi uma sesilaphaya ngomhlaka 16 May 2002 saya e-Shanghai lapho kwenziwa khona itiye. Saya nalapho litshalwa khona ngendlela engangethuke ngayo ngayizolo Somlomo,angibange ngisehla emotweni siyobona lapho kutshalwa khona itiye ngahlala emotweni ngendlela engangethuke ngayo umzimba wami wawungishiya. Baba Somlomo ngicela ukubakuzwakale kahle lokhu...TRANSLATION: Thank you Mr Speaker. Firstly, the gentleman who has just spoken, the Reverend. Alas, there is something he does not understand well, yet he is a Reverend and shouldnot distort facts when making submissions!First and foremost Mr Speaker, I am very thankful that I was part of the delegation that went with the Transport Committee to China. Let me start off by commending the Chairperson of theTransport Committee, Mr Mandla Ndlovencane Malakoana, who led us to China.
2210Even when we were in China Mr Speaker, he led us to many transport centres that we visited. Firstly I, David Ntombela, my eyes were opened in China as there were many things that I did notknow but I mention them here. We visited a centre where locomotives are assembled. I have never seen train assemblies, I have only seen them in motion. We also went to where trainengines are fitted in locomotives and I saw that with my own eyes. We were in the company of Reverend Mtetwa.Mr Speaker, what I saw at the museum there fascinated me, and I have to say this. Where I saw people who have been embalmed and look like biltong. We were invited in to have a look.When I walked out of there I was very perplexed. In fact I did not stay long there after seeing embalmed bodies with beards. I walked out and left. That is something I noticed about that place.[LAUGHTER]I was flabbergasted Mr Speaker, Macingwane, what the Chinese do in their belief. People who died more than two hundred years ago were lying with their beards and you can see the Chineseare a different nation.It is true that on 16 May 2002 we went to Shanghai where there is tea. We also proceeded to where it is grown and because I was still in shock about what I had seen the previous day, MrSpeaker, I did not alight from the vehicle to see where tea is grown. I remained seated in the vehicle with my body shivering. Mr Speaker, I want this to be well understood... T/EAN HON MEMBER: UKUPHAZAMISA. [INTERJECTION].MR T D NTOMBELA: Angimazi ukuthi ufuna ukuthini. [UHLEKO] Baba Somlomo... [I do not know what he wants to say. [LAUGHTER] Mr Speaker...]THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Awuhlale kancane Baba uMahlobo. [Could you please be seated for a moment Mahlobo].MR T D NTOMBELA: Angimazi ukuthi ufuna ukuthini. [UHLEKO] [I do now know what he wants to say]. [LAUGHTER]THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Kulungile hlala nje kancane. Yebo Mr Cele. [It is okay, please resume your seat. Yes, Mr Cele]?MR B H CELE: Ngisukuma ephoyintini lokunhlanhlatha engathi fanele sixoxe ngezokuthutha kodwa sizwa ngabantu abomisiswe, sizwa ngetiye asizwa ukuthi intilasipothi ikuphi manje la. [Irise on a point of order. We are supposed to be discussing transport, but we hear about embalmed people, we hear about tea, but nothing about transport].MR T D NTOMBELA: Ayi-ke izintambo zikuwena Macingwane. [Well, it is over to you Macingwane].THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Cha qhubeka. [You may proceed].MR T D NTOMBELA: Sithe uma silapho Somlomo neNdlu yakho ehloniphekile njengoba ngangishaqekile ngibuka lento engangiyibuka eShayina angibange ngisaphuma emotweni, kodwaokwenzeka ngihleli emotweni ngathuka umhlola ngibona uNyambose ebaleka uMfundisi Mtetwa. [UHLEKO] Uyayibika indaba akayibiki lena eyakhe yokubaleka ngangazi ukuthi uxoshwa yiningasivala isivalo semoto ikhumbi wajikela ngale wangena ngasesihlalweni sikamshayeli. Yini Nyambose? Uthi uxoshwa inyoka enkulu. [UHLEKO]Ngempela Sihlalo, aMashayina ayibamba leyonyoka eyayixosha uNyambose aze athi aMashayina uyabona njengoba lenyoka sesiyibambile nizolala niyidlile, amaqiniso lawo ngempela bayidlaoNyambose leyonyama. [UHLEKO] Sihlalo neNdlu yakho ehloniphekile engakubona laphana ngiyafisa ukuthi Macingwane Baba engathi yonke iminyango la eNingizimu Afrika ikakhulukazilangikhona mina kwisiFundazwe bangakwenza lokhu ukuba sihambele izindawo lakukhandwa khona izimoto zisuswa khona phansi njengePhalamende. Siye lapho kugaywa khona ushukela,sizibonele thina imishini kashukela, singathi uma siphume la siyobona izinto esingazange sizibone la kulesiFundazwe sakithi.Ngiyanxusa mina ukuthi uMandla Malakoana owayehamba nathi wasiphatha kahle futhi imoya yethu yayimihle kabi Sihlalo. Wawungeke usho ukuthi lo usonta eWeseli, usonta eMaromeni lo,kwakungabantu abaphuma eNingizimu Afrika beya lapha eShayina. Kodwa uma sila kukhona ukukhombana ngeminwe, kukhona ukugxeka, kukhona yonke lento engekho lapha eShayina.
2211Ngoba bazikahle ukuthi uma uxabana nomunye lapha phesheya ungase ungaligibeli ibhanoyi bakudukise bakushonise le, bakushonise le. Kodwa namhlanje ngicabanga ukuthi iyonandlela.Mina ngithi angimbonge uSihlalo...THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sekusele umzuzu owodwa. [One minute left].MR T D NTOMBELA: ...Baba. Ngithi angimbonge uSihlalo engathi nala oNgqongqoshe bonke bakithi kulesiFundazwe bangakwenza ukuthi bazikhombe izindlela emnyangweni abayiphethenoma ilapho kuhlahlwa khona umoba, siye siyobona ukuthi uhlahlwa kanjani. La kugaywa khona impuphu siyoyibona kuyoyonke imikhakha. Ilokho mina engingakujabulela Baba Somlomo,umangase sikwenze lokho. Nokudla mina ngangihlupheka kakhulu ngoba ngangingakudli ukudla lokhu okunye, ngangisizwa ukuba ngiyodla amabhanisi ngiphuze ne-drink ngoba ukudlakwalaphana kwakungixakile. Ngimzwile uMhlonishwa uBheki ethi sengiyanhlanhlatha angikwazi ukuvele ngikhulume ngamasondo emoto ngingakwazi la ekhandwa khona ukuthi akhandwaphi.Angikaze ngiye ngisho e-Dunlop la kugaywa khona amathayi. Ngiyanxusa mina Mhlonishwa Manzankosi ukuthi asiye e-Dunlop siyowabona egaywa amathayi, efakwa aze ayotakishwa...THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Isikhathi selungu elihloniphekile sesiphelile. [The hon member's time is up].MR T D NTOMBELA: Ngiyathokoza.TRANSLATION: Mr Speaker, and the hon House. As I was perplexed I did not get out of the vehicle, but what bewildered me most was to see Nyambose Rev Mtetwa fleeing. [LAUGHTER]He is giving the report but he does not mention that he ran away. I did not know what was chasing him, so I closed the door of the kombi and he ran around and got in the driver's seat. What iswrong Nyambose? He said he was chased by a big snake. [LAUGHTER]Indeed Mr Speaker, the Chinese caught that snake which was chasing Nyambose. The Chinese even said now that they had caught that snake, we were going to have it for dinner and indeedNyambose and others ate that meat. [LAUGHTER] Mr Speaker and your hon House Macingwane, I wish that all departments here in South Africa, especially in my Province, could emulatethis by way of us as parliamentarians visiting factories where vehicles are manufactured. We should also visit sugar milling places and see for ourselves the sugar mills, so that we do not goout of this Province to see things which we could have seen here.I commend Mandla Malakoana who was in our company, for treating us so well, and the atmosphere was very pleasant Mr Speaker. You would not tell a Methodist from a Catholic - they werepeople from South Africa visiting China. But when we are here, there is a lot of mudslinging and criticism which was not there in China. It is because they know very well that if you quarrel withsomeone overseas, you may not board the flight as you may be driven from pillar to post. However, today I think it is the right way. I feel I should thank the Chair.Sir. I feel I should thank the Chair and I wish all our Ministers in this Province can point out the ways in their departments. We visit canefields during sugarcane cutting and see how it is cut.We can go and see how maize meal is milled. If we can do that Mr Speaker, I will be glad. With regard to food, I suffered a great inconvenience because I did not eat all the dishes they served.I survived by living on buns and soft drinks because the food there was too much for me. I have taken a point made by the hon Bheki where he alleges that I am out of order, but I cannot justtalk about tyres yet I do not know where they are manufactured. I have never been to Dunlop where tyres are manufactured. I urge hon Manzankosi, that we should visit Dunlop to see allprocesses with regard to manufacturing of tyres, including packing...Thank you. T/ETHE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you hon member. The next hon member is Mr B V Edwards for five minutes.MR B V EDWARDS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. It gives me pleasure to participate in the debate today. I can hardly do justice in the short time available. I would also say it was a privilege andpleasure to have been given the opportunity to have been a member of the delegation which undertook the Study Tour to China in May last year.It is, however, most unfortunate that we are only debating the report of the Transport Portfolio Committee over one year later. I have a copy of the first draft of the report which was presented on
22129 June 2002 and the final report was presented to the portfolio committee on 19 August 2002. It is even more unfortunate that the recommendations of the report which were far-reaching andmost important for the administration of transport systems and the users of transport modes in <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>, to only have this now. It has received virtually no attention.Mr Speaker, the recommendations of the report are certainly praiseworthy but it is most disappointing that proper follow-up has not taken place. When I say proper, it is true to say that virtuallyno follow-up has taken place. This tour was at a fairly considerable cost to the <strong>Legislature</strong> and consequently the taxpayer. I have not been privy to the financial report of this study tour, whichshould have been tabled to the Executive Board, but with 11 people participating, ten members plus the committee secretary, the total cost must be well over R300 000.While the study tour was most informative and certainly broadened the knowledge of members, not only on transport matters, but on cultural matters, the question must be posed, did wereceive value for money as a <strong>Legislature</strong> and has this Province and the taxpayer received value for money? On the face of things, probably not in the short term, but provided therecommendations and the knowledge gained is now used productively and soon, the benefits I believe should be substantial.On aspects of the report itself the recommendations include:The portfolio committee informs itself fully on the state of various transport services and infrastructure on the roads in the Province.Statistics of the 2003 inter-government fiscal review reflect that <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> has a total of over 37 000 kilometres of road network, 6 631 or 18% paved, 16 000 or 44% gravel, and 14 200 or38% mainly rural access roads.The road network can be compared to the arteries and veins of the human body. If they are in bad condition our health will fail and in respect of roads our economy can deteriorate or ultimatelyfail.It is disturbing that in <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> only 3% of our total budget is on our road network, but pleasing that this budget increased to 3,8% per annum in the MTEF period. Even more pleasing isthat spending growth on road maintenance is projected at some 27% over the next two years, one of the highest in South Africa. The Western Cape is very high at 68%, the Eastern Cape at36%, Gauteng which is very developed already at 5%. The Free State has a negative growth of 4%. We do know that 27% growth is not enough and estimates given reflect a substantialbacklog which the portfolio committee needs to examine urgently.As for the road and transport systems in China, Hunan Province is worth mentioning, as it is a province very much like <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> and is made up of an urban and rural population. It is aprovince of 65 million people and the total population of China is over 1 billion. The road network system is a total of 66 000 kilometres, basically double ours. The first class highways are only484 kilometres. Those are the main highways. Then second class black top, some 4 500 kilometres and the balance is gravel, so-called third and fourth class. So almost 80% of their roadsystem is in fact rural type gravel road.It is interesting that some 30% of the passenger transport is by rail and 65% of freight goes by rail. That is where we differ. Our road network systems are overloaded with freight which causesrapid deterioration. By contrast in the Hunan Province and indeed in the whole of China, freight is discouraged on the road network. First by making rail freight much cheaper and also highlyefficient. From one side of China to the other takes three days and gets delivered just about to your door.Also roads are quite heavily tolled to discourage heavy road transport, although for shorter trips road transport is on the increase.As for passenger transport the majority is now on roads using larger type buses and the minibus system is virtually non-existent, with very high licence fees and tolls. The system has been, inthis country, a great empowerment feature, but not economical in China.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thirty seconds left.
2213MR B V EDWARDS: Another of the recommendations of the portfolio committee is that the state of the railroad system or network in the Province be examined and especially the use of rail asan essential feature because of particular damage done to our roads and the high cost of maintenance.Other recommendations too, need to be pursued vigorously and then only can we be happy that the study tour has been beneficial.While museums and other places of great cultural value were also visited, this is an essential part of broadening our knowledge and understanding the Chinese culture and work ethic.I really hope we can use this knowledge to the benefit of the people of this Province.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. Then it is hon member Mr Rajbansi for five minutes.MR A RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am the first speaker who has not made any trips overseas, but nevertheless, I have studied the wonderful report given by the portfolio committeeand the comments made by the hon Mr S N Mtetwa. I think there are quite a few lessons to learn. One is that in spite of emphasis on South Africa's population, our transport system and ournetwork of roads and railways, a visit to mainland China was important because of its massive size, not only the area, but it has the largest population in the whole world, 1 billion.One of the criticisms that was levelled was that there was a lack of proper planning in respect of this visit. When I studied the areas and institutions visited, very few were relevant to our portfoliocommittee. We deal mainly with road transport, rail, airways, etcetera, which falls outside our jurisdiction, but nevertheless, they do overlap.Now, in the report we were told that in Beijing, for example, there are 10 million bicycles. I think also in respect of rural transport you have a mini vehicle in China which makes transportation inthe rural area very comfortable and very cheap.The hon Mr B V Edwards indicated that the load is taken off the roads in China as a result of freight planning. There is heavier and stronger emphasis on rail transport. I want to suggest thatthe portfolio committee, through its Chairperson, study how mass transport works in China. The answer in South Africa is to do away with a lot of vehicles, especially with migration towards thecity.I really think that when the hon Mr Ntombela departs from this world, we should keep him in a museum. I always joke about that, until I heard today that the only time the hon Mr Ntombela gotscared, and I thought he is a person who would never get afraid, but he was so terrified at what he saw in a museum, that the following day he was too scared to leave his vehicle. I think duringthe election campaigns we should get a mummy and take it around [LAUGHTER] in order for the hon Mr Ntombela to run away and remain terrified and not be part of the campaign.Nevertheless, overseas tours are important, because once the world has become internationalised, we learn from the experiences of others. I want to say to the transport authorities that wehave a blueprint in this country about mass transport, and the saviour of our transportation infrastructure will be to encourage mass transport. If there is one lesson we should have learnt fromthe people of China, that is how they handle mass transport. Mr Edwards referred to Hunan province where there is a fuel levy in addition to toll roads to finance the construction andmaintenance of roads. I think possibly we should ask National Cabinet to give part of the fuel levy to this Province, as it requires quite a lot of money to build extra infrastructure.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: One minute left.MR A RAJBANSI: I hope that Mr Ntombela has left his fear back in China in the safe hands of the Communist Party there. Thank you.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr Rajbansi. Next is the hon member Mrs Downs, for four minutes.MRS J M DOWNS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is one trip I did not go on, so I am unable to comment on the trip per se, but I did go through the report. I want to first of all congratulate thecommittee because a lot of our overseas trips have not had comprehensive reports. It was a comprehensive report and we could understand what was going on.
2214The benefit to us - unlike the previous speaker, I do think it was relevant for them to visit rail and air traffic transport. I believe that it is something we could easily incorporate into a provincialcompetency, and should be incorporated into a provincial competency. I believe that rail transport and other forms of mass transport are to be planned integrally at a provincial level.One of our shortfalls as a country is that we have unsafe and unsure transportation systems for the mass of people that do not have their own vehicles. We cannot encourage the use of moreand more cars because it leads to pollution. We do not have the road infrastructure and what we do need to be looking at is an increase in rail transport, particularly in the freight area, which inour country is actively discouraged. In fact, the rail is subsidising the road network, which to my mind is just bizarre and the wrong way around altogether. We should be subsidising rail freight,because it is going to take a huge burden off our roads.The other thing is that heavy vehicles, when they do have accidents, they are much worse than when normal sedan vehicles have accidents. The other reason why we have to look at railtransport is that we need to look at a metro transport system of some kind. I know that we do have a metro transport system, but it is very difficult for people to get to and from their homes.That needs to be properly developed with better coaches and with better infrastructure. That will make a huge difference to our people.I get quite horrified when I see trains going past. They are near to where I live. When I see trains going past the doors are broken, the children are hanging out of the windows. They sitdangling their feet out while the train is in motion. We really do need to look at providing adequate safe and reasonable transport.The other thing is that I am more and more coming to the conclusion that minibus taxis are a disaster. I know that they were established as an answer to our transport systems, but I see thesame thing. Travelling between the <strong>Legislature</strong> and home, I see minibus taxis with school children sitting in the windows, waving their hands out the windows, hanging outside. It horrifies me asto what could happen to these children. Minibuses just are not safe. We need to move onto bigger buses and the taxi recapitalisation project as soon as we can.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: One minute left.MRS J M DOWNS: Sooner rather than later look at alternatives that are much safer. Rail transport is much safer as a means of mass transportation, than road transport. We want to bringdown our traffic accidents. Let us have more metro rail systems where people can get to and from work and school and all of the places they need to go to by using a rail system rather than theroad. Thank you, Mr Speaker.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. Next is Mr Radley Keys, the hon member has seven minutes.MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Xhia Xhia, Mr Speaker. Xhia Xhia is the way you say thank you in Chinese. Nihau to the members. Nihau is to say greetings.I was honoured, as my other colleagues were, to be on this trip to China, and would like to thank the taxpayers of the Province for allowing us to go. The important aspect of the whole trip isthat this document cost R300 000 or more, and it will be a very expensive document if it remains in this format, and unless the recommendations and the experiences we had in China areimplemented and we learn from it, this will be a waste of money.Mr Speaker, this trip was also a great introduction to Mr Ntombela and Mr Malakoana into Chinese cuisine, as he complained bitterly earlier that he was on a forced diet. It was also anintroduction to his taste of pork, although unbeknown to him. [LAUGHTER] He and other members had to go on a hunt for KFC and McDonald's in China, to say the worst.Mr Speaker, the programme was a very tight, well-organised programme. There was one communication problem, however. The most important aspect of public transport was omitted fromthe programme. We saw all we could about air travel and rail travel, but road travel was excluded. We had to make up for this vacuum in the programme by dealing with it, on the hoof, withmembers of the different authorities that we met.More preparation could have been put into the trip before departure. Customs and protocols were left to the members to find out, and we as a representative body from <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> did not
go with an understanding or at least a concept of what the protocols and customs were, what kind of behaviour was expected of us in China.2215All our members on the committee that went, participated fully in the meetings, with an occasional absent without leave on a shopping trip. Gifts of appreciation were given to our hostswherever we could, but I think they could have been a bit more generous, because our hosts embarrassed us to an extent with the kind of thanks that they bestowed on us.The accommodation was excellent. I would say we could have gone down a star or two, because the Chinese are excellent hosts and their hospitality is magnificent. We could have savedsubstantially on that.Regarding the programme content, we dealt with air and rail. As I said, we did not deal with roads. What we discovered in China was that whole lanes and roads are dedicated to bicycle traffic.We could translate that into dedicated taxi lanes within <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>, and in that way help stem the disasters that come out of the crazy driving that we have on the roads.We became very well informed as to the management and the provision of transport in the public sector. We need to inform ourselves even more as to what we are providing to the public inthis Province.Mr Edwards produced a very good report, and I think members should take to heart his input in this debate. The resolutions and recommendations to this House by the committee after the tripwere that we should become more fully informed as to the condition of the roads, the railroad conditions, of taxi ranks, all aspects of public transport.Yet, when this portfolio committee endeavours to execute its function in going to see the condition of the roads, the Executive interferes in the participation of this <strong>Legislature</strong>. The <strong>Legislature</strong>'sconstitutional duty is to go and investigate and do an oversight. When it tries to do that, to see the condition of its roads, the Minister decides to use the parliamentary procedures and memberswithin his party to hijack and stop it in its tracks. This is an abuse of parliamentary procedure, and prevents the party from fulfilling its functions.It leads us to the suspicion, Mr Speaker, that possibly the Department has something to hide that they do not want the portfolio committee to see. The same type of thing happened withUmthombo Investments. Whenever the portfolio committee wanted to go and visit, the Department did not have an official available to accompany them to go and see the investments ofUmthombo and where the taxpayers money is going. Now it is happening with the roads. When the portfolio committee wants to go and see the roads, if we are going to go and see how therailroad operates, and if the portfolio committee wants to jump on a train, will the Minister actually allow us to buy tickets? That is how serious it is getting, and whether the Executive Board willbe used and abused to prevent the portfolio committee from fulfilling its function. This is an absurd situation, and it cannot be allowed to continue.MR A RAJBANSI: On a point of order.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, Mr Rajbansi?MR A RAJBANSI: Is it parliamentary for an hon member to cast serious aspersions and insult an important structure such as the Parliament Executive Board to say it was allowed to be usedto subvert someone?THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Keys, continue.MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): I thank you, Mr Speaker. What is value for money. Was the expenditure on this trip value for money? I think for those who participated in the trip it was indeedvery informative. It was educational and it taught us a lot, but we need that value to be translated to the people of this Province.The question of how the Chinese use their tourist facilities. They generate billions of Dollars in generating their history. We as a country should learn from that. Our tourism industry has apotential to enrich this country.
2216THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: One minute left.MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Our tourist potential has not yet been exploited to the full. We need to learn, and it is clearly visible in China, that the tourist potential generates work, finance andstimulates the economy. We need to do that for this country. The benefits to the commuting public of this Province must be implemented. If these resolutions are implemented we will justifythe expenses of going to China and learning from them. If we ignore it we are actually saying we enjoyed a nice holiday at the expense of the taxpayer and we do not care a damn about howthey suffer raising their funds. I thank you.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. Hon member Mr Malakoana has eight minutes.MR M S MALAKOANA: Ngithokoza kakhulu Baba Somlomo, ngethuba osungiphe lona. Angithokoze kozakwethu bonke asebedlulisile ngendlela okuyiyona okwakuhambe ngayo. Sengabengenziphuma uma ngingedlulise ukuthokoza okuphindaphindiwe kunobhala wekomiti, sibambisene naye ekuqikeleleni ukuthi lombiko uba ilokhu okuyikona ngoba phela umbiko ube ilokukungunobhala elokhu egijima yedwa. Nangaleyondlela Mama Mathaba lawukhona sisebenze kahle nami ngithokoza kakhulu nangu umbiko ubukeka kahle futhi kwasetshenzwa kakhulu.Kungaba iphutha futhi kimi umangabe kubekhona kozakwethu noyedwa engake ngimgxeke ngithi uhambo lwethu akalenzanga lwaluhle, ngabe ngempela angenzi okufanele ukuthi ngikwenze.Ngoba naye uNyambose nomangabe usethi uNyambose basuke bathembela kakhulu kuSihlalo. Angifuni ukulokhu ngithi Nyambose iphutha lelo ngoba phela akekho ongengifakazele ukuthiuhlelo lokuya eShayina kwakungelekomiti kusuka phansi, nokuthi lwamakanjani ithina sonke esalenza saze sayofika ekugcineni. Ngisho nosuku okwavumelana ngalo kwalo kwakokwethuNyambose.Mina bengithi uzobuye usho ukuthi eyi saze sahamba kamnandi ukuthi kwakushonani kwenzekeni bengingalindele ukuthi uNyambose usengafuna ukuyifaka odakeni. Angeke futhingikulandele uye odakeni ngikushiya wedwa Nyambose. [UHLEKO] Ngoba phela sekungonakala ngithi awu nanguNyambose eba usembathwa ngaphi, usembathwa ngaphi, esebaupendupendu.Cha ukuhamba ukuhamba siya eShayina kwaba isifundo esijule kakhulu. Futhi usekushilo uMnumzane u-Keys ilungu elihloniphekile ukuthi loku okula okwanconywa ikomiti. Ngoba phelaikomiti ngomhlaka 19 August 2002 lahlangana futhi laze lavumelana kamnandi ukuthi cha lento yinhle. Futhi angikucaphune lokhu ngoba amagama ayeshiwo ikomiti mahle lamazwi fanele baziabantu ukuthi sahamba kahle.TRANSLATION: Thank you very much Mr Speaker, for the opportunity you have given me. I also thank all my colleagues who have given a true reflection of what happened. I would bemaking a mistake if I did not give my sincere thanks to the secretary of the committee who has worked with me in producing a report of this calibre, because she worked tirelessly to producethis report. I therefore thank Mrs Mathaba for working well with us and I am very glad that the report is good, which is a result of hard work.It would be due to a fault on my part if I can criticise anyone of my colleagues for interfering with our trip. I would be failing in my duty. Because even Nyambose, though he is now saying theyrelied entirely on the Chairperson. I do not want to waste time by saying Nyambose that it is false, because everyone can bear me out on that. The trip to China was arranged by the committeeright from the onset. Even the day was agreed upon by us Nyambose.I thought he would then say what a pleasant trip we had. I did not expect Nyambose to mislead us. I am not going to follow you when you lead us astray, nor am I going to leave you aloneNyambose. [LAUGHTER] Because things can go wrong and we will be awestruck to see Nyambose being two-faced.Well, going to China was a real eye-opener, and the hon member Mr Keys has alluded to the fact that what is contained here was recommended by the committee. The committee met on 19August 2002 and unanimously agreed that this was a good thing. Let me quote it because the committee spoke well and people should know we had a pleasant trip. T/EDr Radebe commended the delegation for the excellent work done concerning the overall compilation of the report. The Chairperson also expressed his gratitude to all the members of thedelegation for the manner in which they worked so conscientiously and co-operatively in ensuring that the report was compiled professionally and collectively. The portfolio committee adopted
You will recall that while in China we were shown tremendous respect and I would be dumbstruck when it is said Mr Speaker, here is your vehicle as Chairperson. T/E2218That was the kind of treatment one was accorded. They would say, Mr Chairperson, this is your seat and they would get in there. I highly appreciate that noma sesifikile. [even after our arrival].It was informative to meet with iPhalamende leli esahlangana nalo leli lapha. [Parliament as we did], Chinese Peoples Association for Friendship with Foreign Countries. It was very informative.Ngoba babesazisa ukuthi bona baxhumana kanjani namazwe njengoba sikhona lapha kuhamba kanjani. [Because they informed us how they communicate with other countries and how itcame about that we went there]. We visited a lot of places...THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sekusele umzuzu owodwa lungu elihloniphekile. [One minute left hon member].MR M S MALAKOANA: ...ngithokoza kakhulu Mhlonishwa. [...thank you very much sir].One striking place that we went to was the Hunan Provincial People's Congress to deal with the matters of transportation. It was very informative because we were in Parliament there. Wecommunicated with the senior people. We communicated with directors. We communicated with everyone, and we had a real understanding of how they conduct their business.Kwaba sezingeni eliphezulu. Uyabona la ngiphethe izigqoko eziningi angifuni kukhuluma ndaba yapolitiki ngifuna ukuthi sahamba kahle nekomiti engathi nangokuzayo kungaba njalo.Nyambose nibe nalokhu kungisekela njengoba naningisekelile kwaba kuhle kabi. Uyabona Mr Keys nabona ukuthi sasihambe kahle kanjani. USihlalo was the real Chairperson.Kwakubonakala ukuthi lento esiyoyenza siyayenza ngempela, engathi kungahlala kunjalo. Ngincoma umoya mina ozakwethu abangihluphanga, kwakungekho ukuthi ukulephu, ulaphi nangiphakamnandi.TRANSLATION: It was at the highest level. You see here I am wearing many caps so I do not want to talk politics... All I want to say is that we had a pleasant trip and wish the same for thefuture. Nyambose, you people must please support me as you did, it was very nice. Mr Keys can see how good out trip was. The Chairperson was the real Chairperson. It was clear we wereintent on our mission and I wish it remains so. I commend the atmosphere. My colleagues did not give me problems, partisanship was not the issue, you people treated me well. T/ETHE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Time is up, hon member.MR M S MALAKOANA: Siyathokoza. [Thank you].THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Next on the speaker's list, hon member Mr Singh for eight minutes.MR A SINGH: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The report of the committee on its tour of China is very interesting, and I believe that it is a well-balanced report that contains a lot of what weexperienced in China.This month is dedicated to the celebration of the youth and I want to add my full support. The youth are the future and we need to invest in them wisely. That is a good investment for the future.Their safety on our roads as pedestrians or in public transport, especially minibus taxis, is most important to us all.Mr Speaker, I want to now reflect on the study tour of the Republic of China that took place a year ago. I believe that this report and this debate should have taken place many months ago, butnow that we are debating it many of us who were part of that tour are now discussing the report and not remembering the little issues that took place on that tour.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.MR A SINGH: Yes, I was a member of the DA at that stage, and I do not say that on that tour we went as political parties. We went there as a committee, as a delegation of the Transport
2219Committee, and not as a political party. I believe that when we leave this country, we need to go as one team representing South Africa or our Province and not go there as a political partywanting to let our country or Province down.Mr Speaker, China's travel is very interesting, because the accident rate on their roads is lower than we have in our country. The road deaths are less, and the youth of that country are sparedwhilst people take heed in the public transport sector. Yes, they do ride bicycles and they have special lanes for these bicycles, so the youth are taken care of.The Chinese are generally very respectful people, and on meeting them for the first time they bow with respect and humility. This respect is also reflected in their driving skills on the roads. Wefound courtesy for one another, giving way to their fellow drivers and the least amount of road rage and lots of patience is practised by road users, be it on a bicycle or pedestrians.AN HON MEMBER: The girls were smiling.MR A SINGH: Yes, the girls were smiling, because they believe that foreigners are welcome in their country. By smiling we are now encouraged that other people from this <strong>Legislature</strong> shouldvisit China, because it is a very nice and welcoming country.Their traffic officers also play a major role in ensuring that the few that break the rules are prosecuted.Their other very important and popular mode of transport is the train, which I must add was very fascinating to travel in because of the safety features and most importantly, the cleanliness.The visibility of police cameras at the train stations and the visibility of police personnel who were ready to help, although communication was limited from both sides. We got along well withsign language and the maps at the train stations we found to be very helpful in giving us directions to and from the stations.The trains have electronic sign boards giving a clear indication of the time of departure and arrival and the distance from one point to another. This makes public transport comfortable,especially for foreigners who are unaware of the distances between stations and also ruling out accidents on the roads because the trains generally run underground.The Railway Ministry gave our delegation a commitment that it will help South Africa if requested, and I believe that we can learn a lot from our Chinese counterparts.We also visited a motor vehicle assembly plant and found that great emphasis was placed on maintenance and service of the motor vehicles. In China motor vehicles require a COR annually.This ensures that motor vehicles are kept in shipshape condition. They are checked regularly from bumper to bumper by owners as they are not allowed on the road after ten years. MrSpeaker, after ten years the vehicles are scrapped. Some countries, like ours, buy these vehicles as secondhand vehicles and put them on our roads. I believe that this kind of practice shouldnot be adhered to as those vehicles are not in a roadworthy condition.Foreign countries that purchase these vehicles are creating more jobs for the people of China because employment in that country is needed due to the large population they have. Beijing itselfhas 12 million people, and 2,6 million motor vehicles, 10 million bicycles, and about 60 000 taxis, most of which are owned by the State.Mr Speaker, I believe we learnt a lot on this tour of China, and I recommend that the report that we have compiled as a committee should be looked at and ideas should be put to use so thatmoney spent on the delegation that went to China is put into practice. Thank you.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr Singh. We then proceed to the next item on the Order Paper, 8.4 which is the debate on the motion by Mrs L G Ncgobo, IFP. The first to speak onthat motion is the hon member Mr Combrinck, who has one minute.8.4 MOTION: IFP UPHOLDS GOOD GOVERNANCE
The IFP upholds good governance and views the violation of the above as a betrayal of trust to the electorate.2220MR H L COMBRINCK: (Deputy Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, thank you very much. As I introduced this debate this morning, in one minute I just have to say this, we did introduce the motion onbehalf of the IFP and we sincerely hope that this debate will bring something positive to this hon House, and that each and every member will only for one minute think and scrutinise themselveswhen we discuss the topic on corruption and the evils thereof. Thank you, sir.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. Next is the hon member Mrs Scott, who has 14 minutes.MRS B SCOTT: Mr Speaker, hon members. The ANC welcomes the debate on fraud and corruption. You can say what you will about the ANC, but it is an undisputed fact that over 90% ofState fraud and corruption exposed in South Africa has been exposed by the ANC Government itself. We have the ANC to thank for the Public Protector, the Scorpions, the Assets ForfeitureUnit and the National Anti-corruption campaign. The ANC has given true meaning to transparent government.You will understand that I was absolutely gobsmacked when I read the DA's, Tony Leon's, quote in the City Press on Sunday which was entitled "IFP, DA crack good governance whip". TonyLeon then states the following:When the DA and IFP began working together, I declared we should turn each administration into a workshop of good governance, that we should show South Africa a stark contrastbetween our shining provinces and towns and the dark wastelands of corruption.Excuse me, members, but I just had to double up in laughter. I mean, this is the same Leon that silenced me from exposing IFP corruption, and one of the reasons why I left the DA.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!MRS B SCOTT: Corruption, I might add, that went straight to the top. Let me start with some examples of the corruption that I was silenced on, which is Ulundi. It is a cesspool of IFPcorruption and maladministration. In fact, this is headed by the IFP members of the Provincial Executive in this House. The media has given much coverage to the refusal of IFP MECs to paymarket-related rentals for their official homes in Ulundi, in direct violation of the Ministerial Handbook.In the year 2000 the Department of Public Works estimated a rental that was owing by MECs to be R4 000 a month. Using that conservative estimate, from 1994 to date an approximateamount of R432 000 in rental is owed by each house occupied by IFP MECs.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member.MRS B SCOTT: I am not prepared to take a question, Mr Speaker.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Keys?MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, I rise on Rule 97(2) where a member must not deliberately mislead the House. I believe that the hon member Scott is misleading the House whenshe alleges she was silenced. It is a total fallacy. She tells untruths.MRS B SCOTT: I am so sorry for that hon member.MR A RAJBANSI: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Is the hon Keys allowed to deliberately mislead the House? Because I have got minutes where Tony Leon instructed it.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can we have order, please. Mr Keys, you have said that 97(2) is your point of order, but I cannot get exactly what the point of order is there.2221MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, the hon member Scott has alleged that she was silenced by the hon leader of the DA, Mr Tony Leon, and that is a fallacy. That is where Rule 97(2)says she is misleading this House.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Keys, we will investigate that to get to know whether it is correct that she was silenced or not. We will then be able to justify your point of order. Thank you. Canwe then proceed, Mrs Scott?MRS B SCOTT: Each one of the IFP MECs, including the hon Premier, owe this Province hundreds of thousands of rands in outstanding rentals owed on those Ulundi premises. If you areworking just on that R4 000 conservative estimate, just on rental alone the Premier is outstanding by about R96 000. The former MEC for Works, R384 000. MEC for Traditional Affairs andLocal Government, R420 000. MEC for Welfare, R382 000. MEC for Agriculture, R331 000, and the Speaker who started paying R600 a month, but then had it refunded to him, approximatelyR288 000 in outstanding rentals. Just rentals!.We will then go to the Ministerial Handbook where it says that Ministers are responsible for the cost of domestic services. In answer to a question, the former Minister of Works said that there isone domestic per house in Ulundi at a cost of R2 333 a month, and that was in the year 2000, which works out, since 1994, to R251 000. That is owed by every single IFP MEC to thisProvince. That money must be recovered, and we ask the Department of Public Works to please recover it.We do not know the cost of electricity, water and telephones for those houses. The houses are just the beginning. They just serve as an example. It goes on. Why is it that public servants inUlundi, right up to DG position pay a mere R200 per month rental?THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mrs Scott, there is another point of order. Mr Keys?MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, will the hon Scott take a question on members of Parliament owing rent in Ulundi?THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, she did indicate that she is not going to take your question, therefore please proceed, Mrs Scott.MRS B SCOTT: Why do public servants in Ulundi only have to pay R200 per month, that is including people on a DG salary, for a three-bedroomed house? Yet public servants inPietermaritzburg and elsewhere have to pay full market-related rentals. We have been informed that virtually every occupant of unit A in Ulundi stays there at State expense. We ask the newMEC for Works to investigate this and come back to the House.AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!MRS B SCOTT: Why is it that after nine years there is still not a complete assets register? The IFP need to answer that. What is it that you are hiding? Who of your members are staying inState homes? That is another issue we ask as a matter of priority for Works to investigate.I understand that all of this goes on, because you just need to look at the KwaPhindangene residence occupied by the hon Mr Buthelezi. The Public Accounts Committee conducted a thoroughinvestigation and found that the expenditure on this residence was not only unauthorised, it was unlawful. In February 2002 the Public Accounts Committee said that money has to berecovered. The Department of Traditional Affairs and the Department of Works ignored the committee.Let me tell you the extent of the IFP ignoring us. The hon Premier actually spent a further R116 000 on a legal opinion in attempts to refute SCOPAs claim. Another R116 000? And this isfrom a political party that screamed that no money is spent on HIV/AIDS. The hon MEC for Traditional Affairs himself said that no formal authority has been traced by the Department. Therecords for 1994/1995 and 1995/1996 were mysteriously, "destroyed". Expenditure from 1996 to 2001, R746 686.
2222The hon Premier said that the hon Dr Buthelezi did not know that this stuff was happening. He did not know that he had a heated pool. He did not know that R80 000 per year is spent onmaintenance. He did not know that?You then have to go to the <strong>Legislature</strong> buildings in Ulundi, an answer from Works. I asked who is accommodated in the Legislative Assembly Building in Ulundi, and I was given an answer inpercentages. House of Traditional Leaders, 10%. Home Affairs, 15%, Department of the Premier, 20%. His Majesty the King 15% and the <strong>Legislature</strong> 40%.The expenditure figures provided from 1994 to 2001 indicate that an amount of R6,089 million was spent on the Home Affairs "entity". Yet, the public spokesperson for National Home Affairssays they do not have offices in the Legislative Assembly Building. So whose offices are they?AN HON MEMBER: IFP.MRS B SCOTT: And why has that money not been recovered? Another issue that is sitting with the Auditor-General, and we are asking the Department of Works to please recover thatmoney. It is not the IFP's building, and it is not their money to spend. The State coffers in this Province do not belong to the IFP.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!MRS B SCOTT: The corruption starts right here, Mr Speaker. There are no controls or reconciliations done with respect to the use of the hon Speaker's vehicle. Do you know that at the endof the year 2001 the hon Speaker's car was involved in an accident while unofficially transporting his children to school. The Speaker's car is not allowed to be used for his children. Do youknow that the cost of the damage was R100 000 and guess who paid? The <strong>Legislature</strong>. We demand that this money is recovered.It gets worse. A brand new Mercedes was bought for the Speaker. During the period March 1999 to July 2000, a period of 16 months, the Speaker's vehicle was fitted with 15 new tyres. Threesets plus three spares at the cost of R16 800, yet during that same period the vehicle only travelled a total of 25 000 kilometres, and also for that same period R50 000 was spent on repairs andservices. You tell me that it is not corruption.AN HON MEMBER: It is.MRS B SCOTT: The hon Minister of Welfare and Population Development, I do not even know where to start. How long is a piece of string? Shocking exposure of the transfer of fundsbetween the hon Zulu's account and that of his daughter who occupies the senior position in Cash Paymaster Services, the consultant used to pay our pensions in this Province.A sweetheart IFP Commission was appointed by the hon Mtshali. Do you know that this Commission did not even interview Zulu and did not even ask to see his bank account? It is just a totalfarce, and we paid for that Commission of Inquiry. It is just a joke. We make a joke of government in this Province.We then go on to the same Minister's stay in five star hotels. In the year 2000, he stayed in five star hotels, and we just asked for five star, he could have stayed in more, 106 times. One thirdof the year he stayed in accommodation in a five star hotel at the cost of R431 000 to this Province. I mean, for goodness sake, he could have bought a house in Durban for that money.The hon C J Mtetwa, in the same year, notched up R322 000 from June 1999 to November 2000.We will get onto the former leader of this House, the hon Blessed Gwala, who was allocated a cellphone fraudulently because he did not get the permission of the Executive Board. Throughouthis term of office he had a cellphone which was paid for by this <strong>Legislature</strong>. Do you know that just for an 11 month period from April 2001 to February 2002, his phone account came toR65 700. In one month alone it was R11 500. When asked, he said, "Oh, I did not know I spent so much time on the phone." It is a joke.
No figures have been presented from August 1998 to April 2001, and to this date not a cent has been recovered. A job for the Executive Board.2223We then go on to last year. The wonderful constitutional court case. Mr Burrows sat over there and he supported the legislation this House passed on the Loss of Retention of Membership ofNational and Provincial <strong>Legislature</strong>s Bill and the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Bill. It was passed. It was voted on in this House and it was passed. Themandate of this Province was that we supported the Legislation. Who then gave the hon Premier the mandate to fight this Legislation in the constitutional court at taxpayer's expense? He goesagainst the mandate of this Province and fights Legislation that was passed in this House. What was that? Why did he do that? It was a cheap way of picking up the IFP's bill. He shared thatcourt case with the IFP. In August he shared the case with the DA, picking up their bill, too. It is disgusting that we have to put up with this kind of corruption by our leaders in this Province.AN HON MEMBER: Yes.MRS B SCOTT: We demand that this money is recovered. Where is the DA's voice? I have not heard a squeak out of them for at least eight months.AN HON MEMBER: They have been silenced.MRS B SCOTT: I am deafened with their silence. The hon Mtshali and IFP MEC's use of the Provincial Lear Jet. Was that not a beauty? The average monthly cost of running this jet at thetime, which was in 2000, three years ago, was R133 000 a month. It cost the Province R1,5 million a year. Do you know that the estimated cost, every single time that the jet took off wasR12 000. Can I tell you some lovely things that happened during the time that the Premier used that jet? In a space of 82 days the hon Premier flew alone, with his bodyguards, for 63 of thosedays. He used the Lear jet 80,5% of the time for himself.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon member is left with one minute.MRS B SCOTT: For nine days the Premier used the jet to travel between Durban and Pietermaritzburg. Can you believe it? Using a Lear jet to travel between Durban and Pietermaritzburg?A 40 minute drive by car. R12 000. You know, on two of these occasions he used the jet to watch the same play on two successive days in Pietermaritzburg. That cost the taxpayer R24 000.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, there seems to be a point of order.MR B H CELE: Mr Speaker, I want to believe that the comment made by Mr Mzobe is a racist one to say usizakele uthole izilima eziMnyama [he is glad he has got black fools]. I think that isracist. Any racist issue is a serious constitutional violation.AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Mzobe, there is an allegation that you have made those racist statements.MR M R MZOBE: I think the hon member must clean his ears. I do not remember saying that. Thank you.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we have had discussions on such an occurrence in the past where there is no microphone switched on and there is no proof whether the membersaid it or did not say it. Unfortunately based on that, I am not going to pursue this matter, but I am going to say that this House is beginning to have a very bad reputation. That reputation hasbeen caused by the members of this House. This interruption has happened whilst we are discussing a very important issue of morality. I will say that everybody must think twice about whethertheir morals are in the correct place or not. If we lie to ourselves or swear at other people, if we make a mess of this House, we are not only doing an injustice to this House, but to ourselves aswell. Morally it is incorrect for members to behave in that manner.I also plead that there have been debates in the past which I have presided over. There was never as much disturbance as there is now. I will plead that in the last minute that this hon member
2224has, she be allowed to proceed and to finish without any interruption or disturbance, please. Hon member, finish your minute, because the few seconds that have passed have been consumedby this debate. I cannot give you 18 seconds now.MRS B SCOTT: Okay, just two things. The IFP's monthly National Council meetings and the cost of hotel and food bills by IFP MPLs and MECs have been charged to this <strong>Legislature</strong>. I amasking for that to be investigated.Also the fact that to this date IFP MPLs and National MPs are still staying at the <strong>Legislature</strong> flats in Ulundi in flagrant violation of an Executive Board ruling.Fraud and corruption needs to be stamped out and members need to look at themselves first. I thank Mr Combrinck for that statement.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. We will then proceed with the next speaker on the list, and that is Mrs F X Gasa. The hon member has nine minutes.MRS F X GASA: I really wish to thank, through you, hon Speaker, the introduction by Mr Combrinck, and I would like us to underline that he challenged every member of the <strong>Legislature</strong> to lookat themselves before they cast aspersions.I would like to take a different tone so as to make it clear why I am talking in this debate. What is said and done in this House during this month is an effort to teach the youth and to lead them,through the path of righteousness.Reading the newspapers lately has become a very depressing experience, because it seems that good governance has become a very scarce political reality. We do not read, for example,how much the Director of Procurement in eThekwini earns in a year, but we know that the Municipal Manager of the same Unicity tried to conclude a massive office rental deal with quite a lot oftenders. We are not getting the correct statistics, as some of the members have been debating now, and I plead that we talk about recently checked statistics, and if we are not sure, let us behonourable enough to shelve that which we are not sure of.There has been quite a lot that needs to be exposed, but my premise, as I said, is about good governance. Good governance means accountability and transparency in tenders, procurement atall levels of Provincial, local and National Government. Good governance means that the equity laws of our country are followed by all, so that the disadvantaged majority reap the benefits ofthe new society that we are trying to build here.We cannot for instance accept that the City Treasurer is going to put an additional burden on things that are needed in each and every household by the ratepayers of KwaMashu and theratepayers of Lamontville. They do not understand this and they fall way below the breadline. These are the issues we have got to look at and talk about in order to see how we are going tohelp our people. Our people are not helped by this bickering. They are not helped by the noise that is made. They will be helped when we truly look into these issues and absorb them in sucha way bawubone umehluko ezimpilweni zabo emveni kokukhetha thina ayilamaheme-heme esiwenzayo. [that they notice the difference in their lives since electing us - not this flimflam we aredoing].If we are to root out corruption and concentrate on good governance, we need to be open about what happened, how it happened and correct the faults of the past. We must not allowourselves to be overtaken by the overspill of personal bile being spewed on some of us here. Let us correct this.In answer to what the hon member, Mrs Scott, mentioned, namely the rentals in Ulundi. We need to check how recent her information is. While we say there is money that is being owed, wemust be able to state who is presently paying and how much that person is paying. If they have not been paying, why are they still at Ulundi? We should be able to say they are not paying. Ifthey have begun to pay, we must be able to find out how much they are paying. Do not just glibly say at Ulundi flats. We will never throw people out of Ulundi. People left Ulundi of their ownvolition. We who are still using Ulundi, are using it according to the proper channels that have been given to us by the Executive Board.
2225If we are going to be raking up debt, we need to be told how people benefitted from the Nigerian oil deal which was completed several years ago with the Government of Nigeria and theRepublic of Congo. Ake sizwe khona abasadla njengamanje. Basembusweni futhi. [Let us hear about those who still benefit]. When you talk about government you are not saying anythingabout that.Good governance is imperative of a good and caring society, and it is up to us to nurture it, so that we show the electorate that we care about development, growth and honesty.When an hon Minister of a Provincial Government uses public money to rent a house in a rich suburb for R22 500 per month, how different is that Minister from the other Ministers that are beingcriticised now. How different is that Minister? Why is that not mentioned? We can only be at the forefront of good governance when we understand the plight of the majority of our people, thepoor, the unemployed, the unskilled, but above all, our rural poorest of the poor. That is what we are worried about. We are not worried about the wishy washy type of things that are beingflaunted here.For this reason amabhanoyi sonke siyawagibela [we all board aeroplanes] for our safety. We are serving the country, and if you are going by bhanoyi [aeroplane] how different are you fromanybody that is in the Department? So we have got to be very sad, gentlemen. For this reason, I say clearly that the basis and foundation of our democracy, fight for poverty alleviation, growth,development and redistribution is in community participation.We need to go on a serious and protracted campaign. This is what I recommend:1. Encourage, nurture and develop people's participation at all levels.2. Enhance existing mechanisms at all levels of government that will encourage and develop people's participation.Indaba yokukhuluma ngamabhanoyi particular uma kukhulunywa ngama-Ministers all our Ministers need to be safe ukuthi basuka la bayelapha esitolo baphume bathathe elinye ibhanoyi aslong as all of them are safe. Singabangi umsindo umangabe kuthiwa lekuqalwa - sesaqala nini ukuthatha ama-measurement siqala ngamabhanoyi.Lezozinto izinto esazisebenzela sijuluka sithukwa, ukuthula kwethu akusho ukuthi asikunakile lokho, sizama ukuthi kubhekisiswe lokho.HON MEMBER: UKUPHAZAMISA. [INTERJECTION].MRS F X GASA: Niyangihlupha ngoba angiyena umuntu wokuklewula mina ngifuna ama-facts sisebenze ngawo, nifuna ukungikhipha kulolayini wami angizukuphuma-ke.TRANSLATION: The question of talking about aeroplanes, particularly when talking about Ministers, all our Minister need to be safe. That they move from here to the shop and take anotherflight is not a problem as long as all of them are safe. We must not make a noise - since when have we started taking measurements, we have started with aeroplanes.Those are the things we worked for, sweated for and were insulted for; the fact that we are quiet does not necessarily mean that we are not interested in it, we are trying to have it looked intoextensively.You are irritating me because I am not a person who believes in howling, but I want facts we can work with. You want to derail me but I shall not be derailed. T/E3. Study, research and implement the best models available for people's participation from international experience Lokhu kumemeza is not international... [This shouting is notinternational...]
2226THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon member has one minute.MRS F X GASA: Ngiyabonga Baba. Why do we not learn from the UJAMAA in Tanzania to the "village democracy" in Indian states. They are giving us good examples. When are we going tolearn about that.4. Establish opportunities and partnerships with all existing and prospective stakeholders for the future.5. Examine the role of NGOs, CBOs and other such organisations in the future of this process.To quote the political science guru, Samuel Huntington: "Good governance is not only a matter of political will, but it requires honesty and openness."Are we in this House ready to pick up the challenge? Masinganyandulula ukuthi ama-NGO's amaningi ayefida bani, ephethe malini, ebanika malini, kuncishwa bani, kungonakala. NgiyabongaMphathisihlalo. [We must not delve into who the most NGO's were feeding, how much do they have, how much do they give and who is given parsimoniously - things can go wrong. Thank youMr Speaker].HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Edwards for four minutes.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can we have order, please. Allow the hon member to speak.MR B V EDWARDS: The IFP upholds good governance and views the violation of the above as a betrayal of trust of the electorate. The motion is worth repeating. It is not only the IFP whobelieve in good governance, but also the NNP and I am sure all other political parties in this House. I think I can say that without fear of contradiction. We believe in it.The greatest problem, however, is that certain officials employed by government, both National and Provincial, seem to believe that the liberation of our country and the birth of the realdemocracy gives them entitlement to take what they feel is due to them. This may be the attitude of some, but not the majority, thankfully.The majority are hard working, public spirited and responsible public servants, but it is that minority that is bringing the public service into disrepute. It is sad indeed to see the number of fraudcases pending throughout the departments in our Province.The Public Accounts Committee was issued with some 46 pages of cases pending, some since 1998 and not yet resolved (in excess of 1 200 cases).This is just not acceptable and we do not know how many more are not yet reported. It could be double that number. We just do not know, because I do not believe that records are properlykept. The worst is the Department of Education. This Department, of course, does employ the greatest number of staff, but perhaps that is a correlation.However, there has been and is a management structure in place for Education which should be ensuring good governance. If they cannot they do not deserve the salaries they are earning.Ten top management in excess of R500 000 each per annum. They are earning far more than you members of Parliament here, but are they doing their jobs properly?Regrettably every department is tainted with corrupt officials. Many are under suspension, some on full pay, some without. I know of one official, there are others, that have been paid in full forover five years now, while on suspension. We recently had a case of a high ranking official being paid in full for three years on suspension and reinstated. We know that case.
2227The hon Premier, in his budget speech, once again committed himself and his Department who are basically in control of human resource policies in this Province to good governance. This isapplauded. I do believe the hon Premier is serious in his commitment, but then we do expect action and performance.My greatest worry is that staff discipline and the resolving of cases of misdemeanours and corruption are not being dealt with expeditiously. Also staff disputes take years to resolve with variousdepartments, and in particular Education, not accepting legal rulings. Cases resolved in the conciliation process are challenged and at times staff treated with contempt in respect of their basicrights. This is very sad indeed.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: One minute left.MR B V EDWARDS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. There are certainly signs of governance improving in this Province, and I think as we went through the budget reviews we saw departmentalheads preparing themselves properly. We saw that each had their policies in place, that every one of them was taking very seriously now the job of good governance, particularly fiscal. It ismore than fiscal management. It is also governance of getting performance from our staff and our people. That is also important.It is no good just getting the money right. You must get value for money, and staff must be dedicated to their jobs to make sure they work their hours per day and do not waste hours trottingaround in provincial vehicles which I see happening every weekend. Staff going around with their families in provincial vehicles. It is just not acceptable.I think those in the Executive who are improving their portfolios must be congratulated. In the Westminster system, if a Minister or a party is guilty of mismanagement or major fraud, the Ministeris then forced to resign. The public calls for this.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!MR B V EDWARDS: The political party calls for this. Our South African Constitution gives us wonderful guidelines that could govern us. Let us all adhere to this. Thank you.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Next is the hon Mr Rajbansi for four minutes.MR A RAJBANSI: If we had to vote on this particular draft resolution, I would have put an amendment to the effect that the Government of <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> opposes good governance and soon. From 1994 quite a lot of allegations have been made in this House. Some correct, some incorrect, some merely speculation in respect of maladministration, not only on the part of thepolitical arm, but also on the part of the administrative arm.There is one plus factor. As was stated in respect of National, in another debate this morning, the Government of <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>, each MEC, each section head, has taken the initiative touproot fraud, corruption and irregularities.The figures given by the hon Belinda Scott today, which was repeated previously are earth shattering. To the credit of the <strong>Legislature</strong> our portfolio committees, especially our Public AccountsCommittee and the Finance Portfolio Committee, have been very effective in stamping out irregularities.When criticisms are made about whether the Executive of this country should have a jet, we should look at each one with equal eyes. I interjected this morning that when Durban had the firstDP mayor, when the rule at national level was that a Provincial MEC must drive a Camry, that city bought a Mercedes Benz S320 class for the mayor. It was not done by the ANC, it was notdone by the IFP, but it was done by the DP. So people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.I also indicated that the biggest trouble that was caused in this <strong>Legislature</strong> from 1994 was, among others, by Mr Roger Burrows and Mr Mark Louw, pen pricking the IFP about irregularities,corruption, etcetera. I have in my possession minutes of the DP where they were doing a deal with the IFP and they were instructed to stop exposing the IFP. I have the minutes and the
minutes are correct. The leader of the DP is the biggest bully boy in this country. I call him the balloon boy, the biggest Houdini.2228THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is a point of order, Mr Rajbansi. What is the point of order, Mr Keys?MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, again Rule 97(2). If the hon Rajbansi has any evidence he would have shown it to this House a long time ago and we claim that he is misleadingthe House.MR A RAJBANSI: I will reveal that ten days before the 2004 elections. [LAUGHTER] I will publish it. I also called him Houdini, because he hides from the voters for four and a half years, andI call him the balloon boy, who will appear in this Province with balloons.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: No hon Rajbansi, Mr Keys raised a point of order. I have not made a ruling on it. Can I proceed and make a ruling? What I will do in this matter, like I indicated withthe former matter, I will look at the evidence that is available to judge whether it is true or false. Thank you, Mr Rajbansi, you can now proceed.MR A RAJBANSI: So the balloon boy will come around ballooning his members and tell lies about the ANC. I can say to the credit of this government, when I mean the government, I meanevery member of the Executive Committee, that they have given us cause where they have taken action to uproot corruption.The DA is concerned about education. Why are they silent about how the Chief Director of the Durban region was appointed? Because they have two good positions in the Provincial Cabinet.They are fulfilling the bully boy's instruction: keep silent. They said we have been elected to be the opposition. So two wonderful, cushy, MEC positions. The principles and the vows which theygave to the voters are thrown overboard.They say do not do unto others what you do not like to be done unto you. I am waiting for the balloon boy to come to Phoenix and Chatsworth. I am going to draw a nice cartoon of Tony Leonas a wonderful balloon boy. He is the balloon boy of South Africa. He has never had a debate with me. I challenge him now, to meet me in a TV and radio debate with his entire team, theirlittle toys.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time is now up. Thank you.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can we proceed to hon Mrs L G Ngcobo, who has ten minutes.MRS L G NGCOBO: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I do not like wasting my time on other people's speeches, but I do want to caution this House that quite a lot of the hon Mrs Scott's theories ortirades are based on very unsound research.AN HON MEMBER: Yes.MRS L G NGCOBO: I will not go into all the details. There are areas where in fact it sounded as if she does not quite know, but she gets in anyway and throws it at this House. She is worriedabout people living in section A and whether they pay or not and how much they pay. Why does she not go to the people who live there and tell them the truth shamelessly? A lot of what MrsScott blows about in this room is half-truths and there is nothing more dangerous than a half-truth. We would like to have the whole truth, or the whole lie.Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to begin my own speech. One thing has characterised the young governments of this continent of Africa in the last 50 years or so. First the euphoria upon theattainment of freedom, followed by the precipitate fall into anarchy such as we see today in many of them. One unmistakeable cause of this is the leadership that succumbs to corruption.
Our country, being the last to acquire its freedom on the continent of Africa, one would have thought that we would have learnt valuable lessons from the other countries.2229For quite some time in our own Province there have been indications that we ourselves are not free from the malady, but to a large extent many of us in Parliament have let sleeping dogs lie.This amounts to a kind of dereliction of duty, for all of us here are duty bound to stand watch and protect the interests of the public.Unsavoury reports keep coming from the press to indicate that "all is not well in the State of Denmark", or rather in the Province of <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>. We cannot pride ourselves in running whatcould be called a clean, transparent government.There is a lingering story, close to a year now, of many people reported to have been killed in places like Steadville in Ladysmith. Such reports go as far as to implicate, by name, members ofthis Parliament. Out of some degree of deference many of us have silently waited for these members or their parties to disclaim such reports.Another issue relates to certain matters in the Department of Health. The highest investigating officer in the Department lost his life. Under what circumstances did he lose his life? How far isthe Department with its investigations and what are the details of the case? No special inquiries were ever instituted. This House is interested in knowing the details. In fact, this Houseproposes a judicial inquiry into the whole matter of the investigations of circumstances that culminated in the death of this man. This matter must be reported back to this House within twomonths.Other reports that appear in our press week by week are those of the funds that are lost and found in the Department of Housing.When our previous Minister of Housing, the hon Dumisani Makhaye, took over this Department, he pronounced and assured this House that he would fight corruption whenever it reared its uglyhead. However, now it is reported that funds running into scores of millions of Rands are reported missing, even though some are reported to have been recovered.It concerns us that the Minister wants the public, (and perhaps this House), to believe that he does not know anything about the goings on in that Department. If his assertion is true, that hedoes not indeed know about these facts, then we wonder who does know, and we need an explanation. This House needs to know what validity there is in these reports and the silence isdeafening.There may be other patches where we need to look into in order for this House to be quite clear that we have a claim to a clean government.However, it is not all doom and gloom. Equally binding is the duty of members of Parliament to bring to the notice of the people as to what is being done by government structures in theirservice. In doing this it may not always be necessary to spend millions of taxpayers money on expensive adverts.For instance, it does not need a glossy advert to tell the people what the Department of Works did under Minister Mtetwa when it built the Inkosi Albert Luthuli Central Hospital. It stands as amonument to show the public. What Nyambose, the hon C J Mtetwa achieved for the people is evident.Equally outstanding is the structure of the Community Health Centre, soon to be completed at Paulpietersburg at a cost of R17 million. We commend such good work and transparency.I do not want to take your time, sir. There are a lot of other issues on corruption and good work, but I will stop there. Thank you.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. I now call upon hon member Mrs Downs for three minutes.MRS J M DOWNS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I only have three minutes, so I am going to have to be very brief. Corruption in government comes in three areas, personal corruption where
individuals are concerned, departmental corruption and then the fuzzy area which we call patronage or nepotism, or something like that.I want to deal with personal corruption first. The members of this House, including MECs, and every single one of us, should be utterly above suspicion in all that we do and say.2230It is a sad day when one member of the House stands up and says MECs owe money. Let me just say that there was also the issue of the Peace Committee where two members of this Househired cars and they were not authorised to do so.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!MRS J M DOWNS: They were both members of the House. We need to be cognisant of that. That is personal corruption. It is something that we need to guard against and need to be carefulabout. Every single one of us sitting in here needs to examine our own heart. Have we ever fudged an S&T claim, have we ever done something that we were not entitled to? Those thingsmust be sorted out and cleared out of the way. We cannot possibly deal with other corruption while there is corruption in this House.I also want to say that clean governance starts with the <strong>Legislature</strong>, and the <strong>Legislature</strong> is not practising clean governance. The <strong>Legislature</strong> as a whole. We have an Auditor-General's reportwith various issues stated in it, including corruption, mismanagement and so on. That has to be sorted out and sorted out now. This is the highest institution in the Province and this is theinstitution which must be squeaky clean.Then there is departmental corruption. That, I believe, will always be with us. It is the measure of how much it is and how swiftly we deal with it which will prove our mettle in the long run.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: One minute left.MRS J M DOWNS: If department heads put in systems and move and punish the wrongdoers immediately, and we do not have five years waiting for disciplinary hearings, and we do not sitwith years of backlogs and we report the matters to the police, and come down hard on wrongdoers, I believe that we can contain it.The third area of corruption is patronage. What can I say? Every government in this country is practising patronage at the moment. National Government, led by my colleagues on the right,and Provincial Government, led by my colleagues on the left. It is not in the best interests of the people of this country to practice patronage in any place or form. It is not right. We need toaddress it and do it now.The last thing I want to say is that Africa is always labelled by corruption. One of the things that we do when we allow these three things is that we confirm racists in their view and we must notdo that. Thank you, Mr Speaker.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you. Next is the hon member Mr Krog and the member has six minutes.MR J KROG: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The DA does not support the motion because we think that the IFP, ANC and DAs agreement to serve together in the Cabinet and Executive does notmake mistakes. Those in departments upholding good governance also do not make mistakes.The problem with the motion is that the vision is a good one, but the claim that it has achieved makes the vision of no value.DR B M RADEBE: Point of order, Mr Speaker.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order?
DR B M RADEBE: Mr Speaker, I am rising on Rule 97(2). Is it parliamentary to mislead the House by claiming that the ANC and IFP agreed to share the Cabinet positions?AN HON MEMBER: Shame. [LAUGHTER]THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: That statement, Mr Krog, are you sticking by it or are you correcting it?MR J KROG: Mr Speaker, the statement is correct, that the parties serve together in the Cabinet.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think what is being said is that there was an agreement to serve, that is the area that is being pointed out.MR J KROG: Mr Speaker, if the parties serve in the Cabinet, surely there must have been an agreement that they serve together?AN HON MEMBER: Yes.2231THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: In other words, you are sticking to the statement. I will then investigate your statement and I will report back to this House tomorrow as to whether there was anagreement that these three parties will serve together. Let us proceed therefore.MR J KROG: I thank you, Mr Speaker. In terms of where I come from the slogan is res ipsa loquitur, the facts speak for themselves. The problem with the motion of the IFP, as I have said, isthat the vision is a good vision, but it cannot be achieved. The truth is that we, as earthlings, will always be able to improve on government. We will always become better in governance.A further problem is that if a party upholds good governance, government becomes complacent and does not improve on delivery, management systems and good governance.No Executive Member can be complacent to the extent that every employee in his Department applies the Batho Pele principles perfectly. That does not happen. The DA supports the motionbecause the IFP in <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> gives the voter an alternative to the ANC policies. Let the voter choose between alternative models of good governance. Few people in this <strong>Legislature</strong> andreal democrats will disagree with me when I make the following statement. The strength of a good government lies in the acceptance of a strong opposition under the rule of law. Not in generalconflict with the judiciary.The ANC is overwhelmingly strong in seven provinces, and with more than 66% support in Parliament and with Executive Mayors in all but one metro. That is a threat to good governance, aone-party State.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!MR J KROG: The National Party has contributed to this by aligning with the ANC.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.MR J KROG: Hear me out. In <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> and the Western Cape we do not have a one-party State and good governance has a chance to succeed. That is why the DA supports themotion.Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. In <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> we are fortunate to have a balance of power which results in robust debate, but also robust governance. The changefrom a one-party State to real democracy can start in <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>. That gives me hope, and that gives the DA hope.
2232Mr Speaker, who would have thought that with Mugabe and Nkomo joining forces in Zimbabwe 20 years ago to form the Zanu PF, effectively a one-party state, any opposition would havedeveloped? The MDC with the majority support in Zimbabwe has come into existence to give the voters that alternative, but the rule of law is flouted, that is why it is not working. As PresidentMbeki has said, he has predicted that will also change in Zimbabwe. With Arab Moi's declining support in Kenya, the opposition is now in government, and better government is on the cards.To strengthen the opposition strengthens government and governance. That is why the IFP's vision for good governance is supported by the DA.Mr Speaker, in reply to the hon Scott's attack regarding rentals, we read in the papers on Sunday that the ANC Government has allowed Acacia Park to become a squatter camp as a result ofthe MPs unlawfully subletting accommodation. Is that not corruption?AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, there is a point of order.MR B H CELE: My point of order is that he is misleading. It is the MPs of all parties that has sublet, not the ANC Government. It is MPs of all parties that are staying in that village and aredoing that.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, can you proceed?MR J KROG: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I stick to the version that I say it has been allowed by the ANC Government. The ANC Government would have reacted much sooner if they had knownabout this problem and they should have known this.AN HON MEMBER: Who is in charge?MR V C XABA: On a point of order.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes?MR V C XABA: He is actually presenting this as a statement of fact, that the ANC Government allowed this to happen.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, that is what the hon member has said. He is putting it as a statement of fact.MR V C XABA: That is why we are asking him, because he is misleading the House, to withdraw the statement. It is not true.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: What we will do, hon members, you have been raising this issue of misleading. I will deal with this one as well and the hon member will present me with those facts,and we will report on them here tomorrow.MR J KROG: I am indebted to you, Mr Speaker. The hon Scott conveniently forgets about the hon Makhaye's residence of R22 500 per month in Umhlanga Rocks. Four fingers face back tothe hon Scott and the ANC. The use of a Lear Jet costs R1,5 million...THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon member has one minute left.
2233MR J KROG: I am indebted to you, Your Worship.MR A RAJBANSI: On a point of order.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon Mr Rajbansi?MR A RAJBANSI: On a point of order. Is the hon member allowed to relegate the Speaker to the position of a Mayor?MR J KROG: I withdraw that, Mr Speaker.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Krog, please continue. I will still give you this minute and please finalise within the minute.MR J KROG: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Four fingers face back to the hon Scott. Use of a Lear Jet at R1,5 million and use of a Presidential Jet of R600 million to R700 million. Whatcomparison is that? Mr Speaker, the use of 25 vehicles at a cost of R25 million. What is that in comparison?MR A RAJBANSI: On a point of order. Is the hon member allowed to mislead the House to the effect that a Lear Jet cost R1,5 million? It is R25 million.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mrs Scott?MRS B SCOTT: I stand up on a point of order, that the hon Krog is deliberately misleading the House. He is comparing fuel costs to purchase prices. He is comparing apples to oranges, and Iput five fingers back.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can you proceed, hon member?MR J KROG: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The DA condemns corruption, whether it is the IFP, ANC or DA. I thank you.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you. Hon member Mr Ngidi, for ten minutes.MR S B NGIDI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The motion which we are debating today is a motion which tries to look at and encourage us, as members of this <strong>Legislature</strong> as well as thegovernment, to consider issues around good governance, and I thought that was what we were going to debate.When the hon Scott opened, she used this opportunity as an IFP bashing exercise. She actually does that at all times. Every time she has an opportunity to speak she will talk aboutKwaPhindangene and the hon President of the IFP. Every time she comes up to speak, she will talk about the Ministers of the IFP, more especially Prince G L Zulu. The ideas which sheexpresses are one and the same and are becoming fossilised. It is this kind of attitude which does not help with the good relations between our two parties.I am trying to understand as to whether she wants to preserve her place in the new party by bashing the IFP. [LAUGHTER] Apparently there is no other reason for her being there but to bashthe IFP. The reason for her continued existence in a new party is to constantly bash us, which is becoming unfair and below the belt.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member?MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): I am rising on a point of order, Mr Speaker, Rule 97(2), which is becoming the favourite Rule today. The hon member is deliberately misleading the House
2235I do not know how much money this cost, I am trying to make some computations, I understand it costs something like R52 000 to flight an advert on TV for 30 seconds. I also know that wehave had a month of adverts which was just more than three minutes, before the news at 7:30, and that works out to quite a number of millions of Rands.We are telling people in Limpopo, people in the Eastern Cape that they have no business to know what we are actually doing as the Transport Department in <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>. It is a waste, atotal waste. We are only looking at that money being wasted in that manner. Some people are saying there are no roads in Vulindlela, we want the portfolio committee to go there and help thepeople and try to assist them in order to get proper roads, because the government has to do that. You have a Department of Transport, it has to do something about providing the roadinfrastructure to those people. We vote for those monies, and those things need to happen.Here is this money, millions of Rands, being used in advertisements on TV and people do not have proper roads. The problem is that when the portfolio committee wants to go and work onthose issues, the Minister interferes. He makes use of the Chair of Chairs of this <strong>Legislature</strong> whom we voted for. Instead of the Chair of Chairs protecting the integrity of the <strong>Legislature</strong>, inwhich he serves, he then sends the whole <strong>Legislature</strong> down the drain. These events go to the Executive Board which is now controlling the events of the Transport Committee, because theysay, hold on, do not go there. Whenever that committee wants to go anywhere it must get sanction from the Executive Board. You say this is good governance? I am trying to see where isgood governance?THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member.MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): I rise in terms of Rule 99. Will the hon member take a question?THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, will you take a question?MR S B NGIDI: No, I am not going to take questions.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon member is not going to take a question.MR S B NGIDI: Let us talk about eThekwini Municipality.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can we have order, please, when we debate?MR S B NGIDI: It is a very good place. That is where I stay. We are trying to look at good governance. Good governance across the board. The eThekwini Municipality employs a lawyer towork as a public relations person, and the Unicity is the largest Unicity in this Province, and they pay that person more than R120 000 big bucks per month. That is no problem. You canemploy anybody, but when you begin to employ a lawyer who has been struck off the roll, you are actually employing somebody who in his practice has been discredited. It is a kind of amessage. If these are our buddies, even though they may do all sorts of things, for as long as they are our buddies, we will always provide them with work. This is not good governance.The hon Scott has been talking about the Ministers in Ulundi not paying their rent. I will support that. If people do not pay rent they should be made to pay. I know that good governance isindivisible. You cannot divide it and say it is good governance if it is IFP, but if it is these other people it is a different thing.We also need to go and check, and I have checked, on the Cape Town Ministers. How many of those Ministers are paying their rent? Two.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.
2236MR S B NGIDI: You will be surprised. If anybody wants to go and check, come back and tell us who is this, there are two, who is this one Minister who is paying. We will actually be saying toourselves, you still have people here who are interested in good governance. I am also saying to myself that if there are any irregular things which can be within law which have been done, as alitany of things which have been listed by the hon Scott, done by whoever in the Province, why do you not begin litigation, proper legal proceedings? Either to retrieve the money or to put themin goal. You come and say oh! KwaPhindangene I am beginning to believe that maybe you do not like the people in the IFP.AN HON MEMBER: Yes.MR S B NGIDI: I do not know whether you hate the people in the IFP. Maybe you even hate the leaders in the IFP. Then it becomes bad. When we begin to make sense in the manner inwhich things are said, that these things are driven by not liking a person, then it becomes bad. That is hatred. When it is hatred, it does not work well for anybody. Mr Speaker, I will stop here.Thank you.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. We will then proceed to the next hon member on the speaker's list, Mr Bhamjee.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order! Mr Bhamjee, proceed for seven minutes.MR Y S BHAMJEE: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for inviting me to participate in this debate.The arguments that we have heard coming from the DA and the IFP clearly suggest that they are indeed bankrupt. They are so bankrupt that our hon Ngidi tries to attack members from thisside of the bench on a personal note. The DA on the other hand decides to run away from the facts.Let us understand where both parties are coming from. You are to know in this House today who is calling the shots for the IFP/DA alliance, is it the IFP, or is it the hon Tony Leon? The newsarticle says, quoting Tony Leon:We will ensure that we ruthlessly reclaim as much of the misspent funds as possible.The hon Belinda Scott did nothing else but refer precisely to that, and people here of the IFP and DA are taking offense at it. More importantly, Tony Leon says:When the DA and IFP began working together, I declared we should turn each administration into a workshop of good governance, that we should show South Africa a stark contrastbetween our shining provinces and towns and dark wastelands of corruption.Is Tony Leon now the leader of the IFP? [LAUGHTER] I, he says. You may say Inkosi Tony Leon! [LAUGHTER]Hon Speaker, the DA knows for a fact, and I challenge the DA and the hon Ngidi to deny that all the issues that the hon Belinda Scott raised, were discussed at a Public Accounts Committee,an in-depth committee where both parties supported everything which the hon Scott said. It is on record. So the ANC is not misleading anybody. The ANC is saying we want open andtransparent governance. We the ANC started the attack on corruption.If any members of the ANC or of the Director-General's staff or senior officials are found guilty of corruption, once the due process of the law takes place, they will suffer the wrath of the AfricanNational Congress. I have not heard anyone of you here say so, but the ANC will stand...AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.
2237MR Y S BHAMJEE: I will come to you hon member. Mr Speaker, we do not deny there are certain malpractices in our organisation, but you deny this. Why do you deny this? Because youwant to be holier than thou. The new slogan of the DA is, "I see no evil, I hear no evil, and I shall speak no evil." Yet you have a document that proves here that it is embedded in corruptionand evil.Mr Speaker sir, let me say to this hon House, in December 1999 the DP was rocked by a scandal involving senior leaders accused of rigging membership figures to win top jobs in the party. Doyou deny that? You cannot.In early 2000 Richard Pillay, a DA MP, was denied security clearance by the National Intelligence Agency to serve on Parliament's watchdog Portfolio Committee on Intelligence. Why?Because the man was as corrupt as hell, Mr Speaker. [LAUGHTER]The DA's appointment of apartheid spies for the Western Cape Government. The Commission of Inquiry headed by Judge Desai was appointed to investigate irregular government practices,related to security in the Western Cape under the DA.The ANC is open. If something has been proven we will say so. The Desai investigation concluded, amongst other things, creating a bizarre DA-led security "bunker" on the M Floor of theProvince's Wale Street administration building protected by a sophisticated watchdog anti-bugging device.The Commission finds that the secure room was created on the instructions of Barnard, and who was Barnard? An impimpi of the last order. [LAUGHTER]. He was used by officials of theProvincial Administration and politicians of the Western Cape Government. The creation of a secure room, protected by the watchdog, provides an extraordinary measure of security not to befound in other facilities of the Provincial or National Government. The Commission considered that the probabilities compellingly point to the secure room and the watchdog as having beenacquired for purposes associated with party political matters rather than commercial espionage.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, can I take a point of order.MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, will the hon member take a question about how many of the National Party members are sitting with the ANC right now?HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, will you take a question?MR Y S BHAMJEE: No, Mr Speaker.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, the hon member will not take a question.MR Y S BHAMJEE: The chickens are here to roost. [LAUGHTER] This, together with the fact that the room was decommissioned and dismantled in such a short time after it had beenestablished at considerable expense, resulted in the expenditure relating thereto being a loss to the taxpayer.With this whole process, no mandates were given and no tender procedures were followed. They spent money without it being sanctioned by the Parliament of the Western Cape.Since when does the DA now proclaim that they are holier than thou when the records clearly show, Mr Speaker, that they are as corrupt as anybody can get.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.
2238MR Y S BHAMJEE: Last year, the Harksen money laundering scandal, what did the Commission conclude?THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon member has one minute more.MR Y S BHAMJEE: The Commission concluded that there was a donor. In fact, Harksen was the donor. There is the report of the Commission, black and white. The hon DA has not deniedthe fact in this House that a pact exists between the IFP and the DA that they will keep silent on IFP corruption, and will attack everybody else. He said he wanted evidence. He did not deny itcategorically which in effect testifies that there is such a pact. I thank you for affording me the opportunity to participate in this debate. Thank you.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Combrinck to close the debate, and the hon member has one minute.MR H L COMBRINCK: (Deputy Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, in conclusion I would like to thank all the members who took part in this debate in a positive manner towards eradicating the evil ofcorruption and upholding the good governance in the Province of <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>.It is such a pity to unfortunately have to listen to the hon Mrs Scott's tyranny and hate for the IFP and DA and that she will sell her soul to the highest bidder. Luckily the wheel turns, and theywill be judged for their corruption and treason committed towards the electorate. Thank you, Mr Speaker.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. Hon members, you have concluded your debate and business of the day. What we are now left with is to close today's business. I willrequest the hon Minister who is available, while the Premier is not, if he has anything to report on. Minister Mtetwa?REV C J MTETWA: Akukho mlayezo Somlomo. [There are no announcements Mr Speaker].THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, now that we have concluded our business for the day, I just want to do the following, to encourage members, in fact I do not think we areencouraging you. There is a briefing by the Uthulu Community Foundation that is taking place tomorrow here in the Chamber. That briefing starts at 10:00 tomorrow. That will be an hourbefore we start with our sitting.What usually happens during these briefings is that members find time to do something else. I do not think that is correct, hon members. This briefing forms part of the business of this House,and is part of the programme of the <strong>Legislature</strong> and all members are being urged to abide by the programme of the <strong>Legislature</strong>. If we do not do so, it means we are undermining ourselves asthe <strong>Legislature</strong>. If we undermine ourselves we should not be surprised when other people start undermining us.For today we have completed our work, and therefore this House is adjourned until tomorrow at 11 o'clock in the morning. House adjourned.HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 16:37 UNTIL11:00 ON TUESDAY, 24 JUNE 2003
2239DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OFKWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATUREFIFTH SESSIONFIFTH SITTING - SECOND SITTING DAYTUESDAY, 24 JUNE 2003THE HOUSE MET AT 11:07 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG. THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.THE SPEAKER:2. OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERSTHE SPEAKER: Hon Premier?THE PREMIER: Mr Speaker, this House conveys a message of sympathy and its condolences to the Head of the Department of Finance, Sipho Shabalala, and members of the family with thedeath of their father who was buried over the weekend.THE SPEAKER: We will all stand for a moment of silence.HONOURABLE MEMBERS STANDTHE SPEAKER: May his soul rest in peace. Amen.3. ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION4. ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKERTHE SPEAKER: I have no announcements to make.5. ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORT BY THE PREMIERTHE PREMIER: Mr Speaker, when circumstances permit, I shall make an appropriate announcement. Thank you. [LAUGHTER]THE SPEAKER: Order!6. TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS7. NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONSTHE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Bhamjee?
2240MR Y S BHAMJEE: Mr Speaker, I give notice that at the next sitting of this House I shall move the following motion:Noting:that the current DA posters adorning the lampposts of Msunduzi Municipality are illegally put up, because no permission was sought from or granted by the municipality;that the posters also contain an electoral message as such the DA knowingly violated the Electoral Act; andbelieving that the posters are also illegally put up in eThekwini, Richards Bay and other areas.This House resolves:that the DA's putting up of posters is deliberately designed to defraud municipalities and exposes the fact that the DA is steeped in corrupt and immoral practices.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Ngidi?MR S B NGIDI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. On the next sitting day of this House, I shall move the following motionNoting:that the hon Dumisani Makhaye then Minister of Housing participating in the Premier's debate on 28 November 2002 uttered derogatory remarks that among other things likened thehon Premier to a devil, "and the great devil was cast onto the earth, <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>" and also likened the hon Premier to Hitler, the greatest dictator.This House resolves:to call on the hon Minister, in the interests of reconciliation, co-operation and good governance to withdraw unreservedly the offending remarks in the House and offer an apology to thehon Premier.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!AN HON MEMBER: Shame!AN HON MEMBER: Yes, it is a shame.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Downs.MRS J M DOWNS: I give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day that:Noting
2241that the ANC and the IFP have not abided by mutual undertakings;? the IFP have not given equal cabinet seats to the ANC;? the Speaker has not complied with resolutions of the Executive Board regarding the Auditor-General's report;? the ANC has not abided by agreements concerning tradition leadership;? political leaders are required to be virtuous men of integrity, incorruptible and above reproach; and? that there are serious allegations against the Speaker.This House therefore requests that the IFP and ANC, in the best interests of the Province, urgently meet to discuss and resolve the outstanding undertakings.THE SPEAKER: The hon member Mr Keys?MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House that:This House noting:the proposed restructuring of Mngeni Water, resulting in the loss of approximately 300 jobs; andthat to date Mngeni Water has been a leading service provider not only for the Province but in the subcontinent and that this cutback will inhibit its ability to be a leader in its field.Resolves:to call on the Mngeni Water to review its business plan to avoid adding to the disastrous unemployment levels in the Province and prevent the perception being created that Mngeni isbut another parastatal falling victim of shortsighted vision and planning.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Cronje.MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Thank you, Mr Speaker. On the next sitting day I will move:Noting:minutes of a DA subcommittee on IFP/DA relations dated 2 May 2002 stating:? for the DA it was desirable to break the IFP/ANC co-operation at provincial and national level; and? that an Africanist, poor people agenda could leave the DA alone and exposed.This House condemns:
1. the cynical anti-African utterances by the DA and their desire to drive a wedge between the ANC and the IFP; and2. the blatant manner in which the DA uses and abuses the IFP to further their own political agenda at the expense of the poor people of this country.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Hamilton.MR A J HAMILTON: Mr Speaker, I give notice on the next sitting day of the House I will table the following motion:This House resolves:2242to call for a commission of inquiry to be instituted to investigate the actions of the National Minister of Health, Dr Manto Tshabalala-Msimang, in refusing to sign the Global FundAgreement into force;to call for the commission to investigate the personal liability of the National Minister in respect of the huge losses in Rand value of the Global Fund through exchange controlfluctuations; andto call on the Government of this Province to institute a court action to compel the National Minister to sign the Global Fund Agreement.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Qoma.MR S QOMA: Ngibonge Somlomo. Ekuhlaleni kwaleNdlu okulandelayo ngiyothanda ukuba leNdlu ibheke. Ngiyabonga.TRANSLATION: Thank you Mr Speaker. On the next sitting day I will move:That this House:urges butchery owners to look deeply into the suicide activities of people killing themselves with meat-saws. They should find ways to avoid such occurrences in places wherecommunities shop, within the Province of <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>. T/ETHE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Krog?MR J KROG: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I give notice that at the next sitting of this House I will move:This House noting:the rise in vigilante killings in the Cape and Gauteng; andthat at the centre for the study of violence, Researcher Mr Nahla Valgi said people consider the justice system inadequate.
2243Resolve:to request the Minister of Safety and Security to get an extra 150 000 visible policemen on the streets of South Africa.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Mchunu.MR E S MCHUNU: Thank you, Mr Speaker. On the next sitting day, I will move as follows:Noting:that in a DA document dated 15 March 2002 the DA states that they are "the only party fully and totally committed not to accept traditional leaders in a democratic framework ofgovernment but as a traditional structure maintained by those amongst the ZULU who want them".This House resolves to:1. condemn this derogatory and racist statement by the DA on traditional leaders and the Zulu speaking people in the strongest possible terms; and2. call on the IFP to distance itself from such colonial utterances.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Malakoana?MR M S MALAKOANA: Mr Speaker, I give notice that at the next sitting of this House I shall move as follows:Noting:the unwavering confidence, fidelity and tenacity that IFP members and new members continue to display as they boldly march towards victory with courage in hearts and unity ofpurpose.This House resolves:to congratulate the IFP for the most successful Provincial Conference which was held at eSikhawini College of Education this past weekend of 20 to 22 June 2003; andto commend the Provincial Chairman, hon Rev K M Zondi of the IFP for the powerful message he delivered that we need to seriously review the coalition agreements that we enter intoin future.THE SPEAKER: Mr Christians?MR A CHRISTIANS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will move on the next sitting day of this House
2244This House noting:that a vital cog in the fight against child pornography is not functioning because of government dithering and the Film and Publication Board (FPB) task not being properly carried out;that little has come of the announcement from Deputy Home Affairs Minister Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula that a hotline would be introduced for members of the public to report instancesof child pornography to the FPB; andthat the Deputy Minister has not shown any commitment to combating child pornography.Resolve:to call on the Deputy Home Affairs Minister to:1. fast track the implementation of the hotline;2. table the amendments to the Film and Publications Act.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Rajbansi? Order! Order! Mr Rajbansi?MR A RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:That it be noted:with appreciation that the eThekwini Municipality has received awards for service excellence recently being voted the best-run city in Africa;that the City of Durban is blessed with excellent officials of the likes of Mr Krish Kumar, the City Treasurer, and Dr M L Sutcliffe, the Municipal Manager.That it be also noted with a great measure of pride:the excellent performance of the Municipal Manager, Dr M L Sutcliffe in the merging of the six former substructure Councils and the saving of the City's millions of rands in thesuccessful privatisation of the City service by service.That it be also noted:that previous officials in the City were the pawns of the DP, and that the DP has embarked on a campaign by the usual letter writing and the usage of certain DP friends ...MR A J HAMILTON: Point of order, Mr Speaker.THE SPEAKER: There is a point of order. Hon member Mr Hamilton, what is your point of order?MR A J HAMILTON: Mr Speaker, it is our belief on this side that the motion exceeds 100 words.
2245AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!THE SPEAKER: I will check on that and then I will make my ruling tomorrow. Hon member Mr Rajbansi, continue.MR A RAJBANSI: That it be noted ...THE SPEAKER: Order! There is a point of order again, Mr Rajbansi. Hon member Mr Radebe?MR B M RADEBE: Mr Speaker, not on this one but on the previous motion because actually ...HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Let me listen to the point of order.MR B M RADEBE: No, on the previous motion, Mr Speaker, the motion is misdirected. The political head is the Minister, not the Deputy Minister. I am sure the motion is misdirected.Mr Christians must still correct that.THE SPEAKER: Okay, we will check on that. Mr Rajbansi, continue then.MR A RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Mr Rajbansi?MR A RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker.That it be also noted that:previous officials of the City were the pawns of the DP and that the DP has embarked on a campaign, by the usual letter writing and the usage of certain DP friends in the media, tovilify certain Council officials such as Dr Mike Sutcliffe, their latest one being over the proposed office rental issue which was supported by all the parties including the DP.AN HON MEMBER: They did not have the facts.MR A RAJBANSI: Therefore:we resolve:to congratulate Dr M L Sutcliffe ...HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.
2246THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! I think that hon member Mr Rajbansi, please finish your motion.MR A RAJBANSI: Therefore it be resolved:to congratulate Dr Mike Sutcliffe on receiving an award for service excellence by the Institute of Town Managers of South Africa.The Speaker ruled the above motion by Mr A Rajbansi, out of order in that it exceeded the maximum of 100 words as laid down by Rule 136(1) of the Standing Rules.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Combrinck?MR H L COMBRINCK: (Deputy Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I will table the following motion.This House:notes with dismay that at the international game auction at Umfolozi Game Reserve last Saturday, 21 June 2003, members of the public, many of them foreigners travelling to attendthe auction, were trapped by a Road Traffic Inspectorate speed trap set up 200 metres from the venue of the auction in a 40 kilometre zone;should know that I personally saw an instance where the driver was fined R1 000 for being clocked at 70 kilometres per hour; anddoes not support the breaking of the law but condemns in the strongest possible way the actions of the RTI in this matter and suspects that this trap was set up solely as a publicitycampaign for the Minister of Transport.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE SPEAKER: Thank you, colleagues. Then we will move to item No 8. The hon Minister of Housing.8. ORDERS OF THE DAYTHE SPEAKER: The hon Minister of Housing.8.1.1 REPORT: THE MINISTER OF HOUSING IN TERMS OF RULE 10(2):REV N W NGCOBO: (Minister of Housing): Thank you, Mr Speaker, hon Premier, hon members of this House. Thank you for this opportunity to address this hon House and to speak aboutthe progress which is currently being made by the Department of Housing to speed up the delivery of houses in this Province.My report covers the following areas:? Backlog of Ministerial enquiries;? Surplus staff in the Department;
2247? Major stumbling blocks:- Lack of capacity within the municipalities;- Fraud and corruption;? Unblocking of housing projects;? Membership of Housing Advisory Committee;? Additional rural guidelines for housing on tribal land;? New Housing projects;? Problems with rental collections - with specific reference to Bonella;? KPMG audit.Ministerial enquiries:Mr Speaker, I am pleased to advise that the backlog of several hundred ministerial enquiries (some dating back as far as 2001) have all been dealt with, and my Ministry is now only dealing withthe current enquiries.Surplus staff in the Department:When I assumed office in the Department, Resolution 7 of 2002 dealing with the management of surplus staff was already in force. There were already approximately 750 surplus staff at lowerlevels (predominantly staff from former R293 townships) who were left out of the structure of the Department that was approved in February 2002. The status of these officials has been reassessedand it was established that the majority of them are performing a housing function, and a supplementary structure has thus been approved to accommodate most of these officials.Major Stumbling Blocks:Before I touch on the progress which has been made with our objectives, I would like to briefly discuss some of the major stumbling blocks that we have experienced - but rather than blame theproblems for making the delivery of housing in KZN difficult, I would rather like to focus on what steps we are taking to overcome them.1. Lack of capacity within Municipalities:Firstly, Mr Speaker, one of the major stumbling blocks that we are currently facing is the limited ability of municipalities to deliver housing in their areas. In addition, particularly in ruralareas, we have found that there is an apparent lack of integration between the municipalities and the traditional leaders in the areas. The Department of Housing relies on theProvince's municipalities to act as their right hand, and to serve as the developers of housing projects in their areas. The responsibility lies with these municipalities to consult with theircommunities in the identification of where housing needs are most urgent. Yet in many cases this is unfortunately not happening.We found that a large number of municipalities simply do not have the resources (or the capacity) to perform a housing function. We have therefore embarked on a Capacity BuildingProgramme within these municipalities, to establish housing components in the respective structures. Pilot projects have been agreed upon with several municipalities. Thus far we
2248have already launched one component at Umngeni Municipality.The launch of this component was done in conjunction with the AIDS Awareness Campaign, which we have incorporated as part of our community awareness effort. As this month isyouth month, I feel it is important to emphasise that our Department is acutely aware of the danger that AIDS represents to the youth of today. It is for this reason that we will continueto allocate a significant amount of funding to projects which cater for those affected by AIDS, especially care centres that cater for AIDS orphans.While it is very important for the Department to assist municipalities in helping them to expand their abilities to perform these functions, when it comes to areas under Amakhosi control,it is also very important for us to remember that the Amakhosi have a vitally important role to play in terms of identifying beneficiaries in their areas, and allocating houses to theirsubjects in conjunction with their izinduna. I am going to ensure that the crucial role that they play is no longer overlooked. Traditional leaders must be given the respect that theydeserve, and they must play an important role in the housing development and delivery process.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!REV N W NGCOBO: (Minister of Housing):When we are building houses in rural areas, or areas under Amakhosi control, it is very important to ensure that all beneficiaries are identified in such a way as to not interrupt thesmooth running of the tribal authority. And we must ensure that all agreements that are signed during the housing packaging process take this into account.Mr Speaker, I would also like to highlight the fact that we have great concern about the fact that some housing projects are unfortunately becoming politicised. This practice has the veryunfortunate result of delaying or stopping the process of delivery. It is the people on the ground and not the councillors and politicians that suffer the consequences. I feel very strongly that weshould no longer allow this disagreement and differences of opinion between local councillors, Amakhosi, politicians and officials to delay or obstruct the delivery of homes to our poor people.We need to completely distance ourselves from these political agendas, and instead focus our efforts on the people that we serve and the job that lies ahead.AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!REV N W NGCOBO: (Minister of Housing): Moving now to report on the positive aspect of progress that is being made in housing delivery in the Province, I wish to begin by giving anoverview of the significant steps that have been taken in the unblocking of the projects in the Province which have not been completed.Unblocking Blocked Projects:At the end of April, there were 112 housing projects in KZN in various stages of non-delivery. These are commonly referred to as "blocked projects". Some of these projects have beenstagnant for many years, (some more than 10 years), for various reasons, ranging from land-legal problems, to community unrest, to lack of funds, to developers who have been paid and thengone bankrupt, etcetera.Most of these projects were not continued due to the escalation of building costs, which has prevented the developers from completing the houses that needed to be built.We plan to take drastic steps to unblock projects which have remained incomplete, and we are going to stop at nothing in order to ensure that one by one every single project in this Province iscompleted and the beneficiaries take ownership as soon as possible.Fortunately, of the total 112 blocked projects, I have since successfully found solutions to take progress forward in all but four of the projects, by approving the necessary funds for work torecommence on a number of them, and submitting solution proposals to HAC for the projects that remained. Thus far, 43 projects have already been unblocked and 14 are en route to my officefor approval. The remaining projects are well on the way and should be ready for submission within two months.
2249The projects which present the greatest problem, are those with obstacles over and above purely financial difficulties. In such cases, individual solutions need to be sought in each case, and allthe various stages which are identified in the unblocking process, need to be properly implemented if we are to make progress. I have therefore given a specific mandate to the Chief Directorfor Policy, to investigate the most efficient and effective way in which we can unblock these remaining projects as quickly as possible, while still ensuring strict adherence to Department policy.We have also successfully prevented delays which seemed imminent in several projects which were heading towards shutdown as a result of the escalation in costs, but which we are currentlyreworking in accordance with the recent National Summary Increase, in order to ensure that work continues.I have also investigated the possibility of accelerating the delivery of housing in the projects that are not actually blocked, but which could deliver houses sooner, if certain interventions wereapproved. This includes projects where the building of houses can happen sooner if a P4/P5 swap is approved and the new project where houses can be commenced almost immediately. Ihave also advised municipalities that they should identify their infill sites and apply for individual subsidies for these sites so that houses can be built on them immediately.Membership of the Housing Advisory Committee:The renewal of membership has received the nod from the Cabinet and the Department will advertise shortly. We hope that within approximately two months, HAC will include both officials andmembers of the housing sector at large. The Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson will be external members in order for me to utilise their expertise beyond merely HAC meetings.Additional Rural Guidelines:The Department has formulated additional rural guidelines to address concerns raised by the Amakhosi regarding the existing Rural Housing Policy. These changes have the potential togreatly improve service delivery capabilities on tribal land and they are currently being studied by the National Department of Housing as well as the National Department of Land Affairs.New Housing Projects:Significant progress has been made in the approval of new projects by the Department, and I am pleased to report that we successfully approved an additional six new projects just yesterday.Please refer to the table for details of project approved.The following table has been inserted by Hansard from the Minister's written speech:PROJECT NAME REGION AMOUNT DATEAPPROVEDMelmoth Victoria Street 10 sitesNorthern R 233 450 19/12/2002Osizweni Section E - Slum Clearance 500 sites Northern R 15 892 400 19/12/2002Shayamoya Phase - 1 000 sites Coastal R 23 345 000 10/03/20036. Midlands Orphanage and Care Centre - 100sitesInland R 1 421 000 10/03/2003Coronation - 225 sites Northern R 5 337 000 10/03/2003
2250Jozini - 500 sites Northern R 11 627 500 10/03/2003Lamontville North west - 277 sites Coastal R 6 882 940 10/03/2003Umlingo Village Phase 2 - 391 sites Inland R 9 127 895 25/03/2003Mziki - Agric - 423 sites Inland R 9 874 935 14/04/2003Dube Village Coastal 14/04/2003Umkhumbaan and Wiggins Infill - 1 073 sites Coastal R 25 049 185 29/05/2003St Chads (Rural) - 500 sites R 13 468 500 23/06/2003St Chads (Urban) - 2 500 sites R 67 342 500 23/06/2003Ngcobo's Farm R 4 309 920 23/06/2003Ekusizaneni Childrens Care Centre - 50 beds R 942 795 23/06/2003KwaMashu Unit C - 408 sites Coastal R 10 838 520 23/06/2003Mzomuhle Parkgate - 408 sites R 35 651 627 23/06/2003HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!REV N W NGCOBO: (Minister of Housing):Rent collection difficulties:Generally, the Department experiences problems with the collection of rent from tenants. This is not a new occurrence. However, in respect of the situation in Cato Manor, the Department hasgone to great lengths, and exhausted every conceivable means, to encourage payment, all to no avail. This problem has been raised within the Housing Portfolio Committee, and the decisionhas been taken to try and find new solutions to the problem. I have instructed the Department not to issue any further notice or summons until such time as we re-enter negotiations with thecommunity and attempt to reach an amicable agreement with them. In order to facilitate this, a task team is being set up to deal with the problem, with two managers representing theDepartment, as well as the hon Deputy Speaker, Mr Willis Mchunu MPP (who is fortunately a resident of the area and a well-respected leader) and two representatives from the HousingPortfolio Committee.AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!REV N W NGCOBO: (Minister of Housing): We trust that all parties will work together with the community in order to find a way forward in this particular matter.I would like to emphasise that the problem of rent collection also extends to hostels in KZN where it is far worse. I would like to share with this hon House that after assuming office, I becameaware of the fact that the hostels in this Province are in a complete and utter state of mismanagement and disrepair.
2251It has emerged that the Department was not aware of what rent the tenants were expected to pay, what rent they have paid, what amount they owe, or, in fact, even how many tenants occupythese buildings. It seems quite clear that it has been politically convenient to avoid finding a solution to this problem in the past. But I cannot allow this situation to continue. These buildings arein such a poor state that they are not fit for humans to occupy. It is for this reason that the Department has now taken over the management of the hostels and we are going to find systematicsolutions to the problems that exist.I would like to report to the hon House, that after visiting the KwaMashu hostel over the past few months and speaking to the residents there about the importance of paying their dues, we lastmonth recorded the first receipt of funds. Thus far an amount of approximately R4 000 has been received, and we anticipate that continued interaction with the residents will lead toconsiderably better collections.KPMG Audit:Speaking of corruption within the Department, I wish to clarify the current situation regarding the progress made by the KPMG audit into the Department. The KPMG forensic audit has thus faridentified approximately R70 million that was allegedly misspent by the previous Head of Department.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.REV N W NGCOBO: (Minister of Housing): We have already been notified by the attorneys that two amounts of R1,69 million and R13,32 million have been recovered in respect of theinterest, and the purchase of the Four Seasons Hotel respectively. These funds have been confirmed as received in our banking account, and we are happy to provide the documentation toanyone who suggests that these funds were recovered prior to my assumption of office.AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!REV N W NGCOBO: (Minister of Housing): I can assure you that they most certainly were not. A further two payments of R4,1 million and R14 million are expected to be received within thenext few weeks, which will bring the total amount recovered to over R30 million. We anticipate that further money will be recovered as soon as the investigation continues.Conclusion:Mr Speaker, since I assumed the office in November last year, it has become clear to me that an enormous task lies ahead of us in the provision of housing in this Province. As you know, thereare major housing backlogs and the delivery of homes (specifically to rural areas and areas under tribal authorities) is simply not happening fast enough, which is why we have initiated steps viathe Additional Rural Guidelines to significantly improve our capacity to deliver in these areas.We have also found that an enormous number of projects have come to a complete standstill - for a number of different reasons. Many of these have made no progress for several years. I amconfident that the significant changes that we have made in the past few months are going to have a visible effect on the ground, and I give this hon House my assurance that my work is not yetdone. We will not rest until the people of our Province have shelter over their heads.I feel very strongly that the people of our Province do not want to hear any more stories and theories about the delivery of houses or any services in this Province. They have listened longenough and they have had more than enough promises. Now they want to see action and it is our duty and our responsibility to ensure that this is exactly what they get.Mr Speaker, hon Premier, hon members of this House, I thank you.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!
THE SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Minister. Can we have order please? I now call upon the Minister of Health to also table his report in terms of Rule 10(2).8.1.2 REPORT: THE MINISTER OF HEALTH IN TERMS OF RULE 10(2):2252DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health): Thank you, Mr Speaker, the hon members of this House. Before dealing with that issue, I must just note that during yesterday's debate I noticed thatthe hon member Mrs Ngcobo referred to Inkosi Albert Luthuli Central Hospital and the Community Health Centres and so on. She also forgot to acknowledge that these were Department ofHealth projects. I just want to remind members that this kind of partisan display in an effort to try and pit one Minister against another is not going to be a helpful approach when debating issues.I have a report to table. I must also apologise that, due to the time constraints, I will only be able to deal with the issue of criminal investigations in the Department. I must again apologise. Thereport will be distributed. If the members could just bear with me. The staff will be distributing it in the next few minutes. I am not sure where they are but I do know there was a bit of a delayand therefore I apologise, Mr Speaker.Our Department is committed to good governance and the eradication of fraud and corruption in accordance with the Department's core values and Batho Pele principles.The Department has developed a strategy for prevention of corruption, which includes a fraud prevention plan, risk analysis, improvement of systems, protocols of management includingprocedures of procurement and the adherence to the Public Finance Management Act of 1999. The Department's commitment has two aspects, that is the prevention aspect and the second isthe curative aspect. The latter leg deals with the fraud and corruption by identifying it and dealing with it, both internally and within the Department by investigation and disciplinary inquiries,whilst at the same time handing the criminal cases over to the South African Police Service.The Department is working closely with the South African Police Service, the Directorate of Public Prosecutions, the Commercial Crime Unit, Assets Forfeiture Unit and the Scorpions. TheDepartment has worked with forensic auditors. We have now involved the Fraud Detection and Recovery component within the Internal Audit Unit and the Provincial Treasury to handleOperation Cure, which is the name given by the South African Police Service to the project of fraud investigations in the Department of Health.The handover to the Fraud Detection and Recovery Unit within the Internal Audit Unit of the Provincial Treasury has been done because they have had access to additional capacity that isnecessary for the adequate rapid completion of the investigations. They have appointed and assigned the project to a special task team and the project is managed by the Head of the Unitworking together and closely with our Department. I want to thank my colleague the Minister of Treasury, as well as the Departmental Head, for this co-operation.During November 2000, the Department had undertaken a preliminary investigation into irregular transactions relating to procurement, and from the evidence that was collected, as well as fromthe seized documentation, it was discovered that departmental officials were implicated in the receiving of unexplained payments from various suppliers. Evidence of various acts of dishonesty,which included corruption payments, over-quoting and excessive pricing, which were perpetrated by a syndicate of suppliers of goods and services were uncovered.It was also interesting to note that it appeared that there was a set of bogus companies which were only created and only thrived specifically by defrauding the government, not just onedepartment, but several departments.Thereafter, based on the information received from the seized documentation, and the information received from informants, search warrants were obtained from the police. Thecommencement of a joint operation/project code-named Operation Cure on 30 September 2002, which was led by the South African Police Service Commercial Crime Unit and assisted by theSpecial Investigations Unit of the Department of Health.It resulted in a total of 169 Department of Health officials and 25 suppliers being investigated for fraud and corruption. In total, 725 banking accounts and 11 513 bank deposit slips weresubpoenaed by the police. Emanating from the investigations, 1 121 counts of corruption were identified relative to departmental officials and suppliers.It should be noted that the value of the transactions concluded between the Department and the 25 identified suppliers over the period under review amounted to R61 853 052.
2253The investigation is ongoing and the exact figures change on an ongoing basis as more information is obtained. The last report which is changing on a monthly basis has shown that there were28 dismissals following departmental disciplinary inquiries. We have dismissed 28 staff members. There were 17 provisional withdrawals of the charges as there was insufficient evidence toproceed with the inquiry but this is being reinvestigated in any case and will be reactivated in time. Nine of the members died before they could be charged but most of these were of naturalcauses. One medical boarding took place in the process. 14 resigned and two retired.The criminal cases are in the hands of the South African Police Service and the Department of Justice. The Department is working closely with them. Designated courts and prosecutors havebeen appointed by the Director of Public Prosecutions at the request of the Department. We want to express our gratitude to these particular departments for the support that they have givenus.A total of 90 officials and 23 suppliers have now been arrested. Eight health officials' and three suppliers' arrests are pending while at the same time 75 are still under investigation. The FraudDetection and Recovery component within the Internal Audit Unit of the Provincial Treasury is scrutinising all the documentation and will assist South African Police Services and the Departmentof Justice. A meeting is being convened this week between the Department of Health, Director of Public Prosecutions, Department of Justice, SAPS, Assets Forfeiture Unit ...THE SPEAKER: Hon Minister, I see a member standing up. Can I just find out what the matter is? Mrs Ambler-Moore?MRS M AMBLER-MOORE: Mr Speaker, I do apologise to interrupt the Minister, but during the last sitting we had a lot of drama about reports from departments that are not tabled before thehon members in order for them to follow what the Minister is saying. Our Minister is giving us a lot of facts and details and it is heavy stuff, Mr Speaker. With respect, I have been out to look forthe report. It does not seem to be anywhere. The hon Cele ruled that reports must be here within minutes of the Ministers starting to speak. I would request, could we have the report please?THE SPEAKER: Can I indicate that when the Minister started he did make an apology. But I was also under the impression that the report was coming in. In that case, Mr Minister?DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I have to apologise because, as I am standing here, I actually sent for the report to ensure that it is here in time. The delay Iam not able to explain at this moment. I am really in the hands of the House. I do know that there is a requirement but the fact that one does not have it right now, I will not know right now howto handle it. I know that it is actually a serious request from the House, but I have made arrangements to try and get it here.I must admit that I think the initial problem did arise from delays emanating in my Department. Therefore I take full responsibility for it. But I will be subject to your guidance as it were,Mr Speaker. I am not quite sure how we should proceed. I have to apologise profusely to the members of this House. In fact that is why I apologised at the beginning. The members hadraised the issue and I was aware.The issues that I am going to be raising are issues that the members are going to be very interested in, but I can only apologise at this stage, Mr Speaker. So I do need a bit of guidance here.If one needs to hold on until the report is available and reschedule the presentation, that can still be done. I have no problem with that. But I must apologise for the delay. Unfortunately as I amhere I am not in a position to expedite the process.THE SPEAKER: Can I be assisted here, I see the Chief Whip, Mrs Cronje.MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): I take Mrs Ambler-Moore's request as a genuine request and the Minister's apology obviously as a genuine apology. Strictly in terms of our Rules, thereport should be distributed prior to the commencement of or during the relevant item on the Order Paper - so we are not in breach of our Rules yet. But I think the MEC has indicated that he isprepared to wait a while until the report is here. Perhaps if members feel strongly, fortunately we do have a little bit of time at our disposal because one item fell away, we could wait for a fewminutes, but I just wanted to point out that strictly in terms of our Rules, we are still not in breach of the Rules.I will also undertake to go and make enquiries, but clearly it is in the hands of the House whether they will request the MEC to wait a while or whether he continues.
2254THE SPEAKER: Thank you. Hon member Mr Burrows.MR R M BURROWS: (Minister of Economic Development and Tourism): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I take the apology of the hon Minister of Health perfectly seriously and genuinely and Iunderstand from the enquiries that I have made, that the document has not yet even arrived in this building. However, Mr Speaker, the hon Mrs Cronje will be quite aware that this was an issueof quite considerable debate during our last sitting. Really it is the sheep and the goats issue. If the goat is going to be sheared by one thing, the sheep must be sheared by the same thing.And if we allow the concession to the hon Minister - and I have no problem in allowing the concession, except he is going into some detail - then it is a concession that must apply to all MECsirrespective and whenever. But if the Rules are to apply, then the Rules must apply and then I suggest we adjourn.THE SPEAKER: Please, what I am looking for is a directive because I just want to rule in terms of what the feelings are. I do not think we need a debate. I want people to say this is what theysuggest is to be done. If the suggestion is that we adjourn, I want to rule based on that because the Rules will allow for that.Your suggestion, Mr Burrows, is that ...MR R M BURROWS: (Minister of Economic Development and Tourism): My suggestion is that the hon Minister goes ahead, but in similar circumstances this applies to other MECs as well.THE SPEAKER: Hon Chief Whip?INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Chief Whip): Hon Speaker, I support the notion that the Minister should proceed, but next time the Minister should in fact adhere to the dictates of our Rules and theconvention as well.THE SPEAKER: Hon Mr Rajbansi?MR A RAJBANSI: We support that the Minister proceed.THE SPEAKER: Hon Mr Volker?MR V A VOLKER: I support that we should proceed and that the report be distributed immediately it is available. In any case before the debate starts.THE SPEAKER: I do not see the ACDP. I do not see the UDM. In that case, hon Mr Slabbert?MR J SLABBERT: Let us please proceed, sir.THE SPEAKER: The view is that the Minister should proceed and therefore we shall proceed. Hon Minister, do proceed, but please ensure that as soon as the report is available it bedistributed immediately. Thank you.DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health): Mr Speaker, and the members of the House, I must thank you. And, as I said, I really do wish to apologise. It was not my intention that we shouldactually entertain this kind of inconvenience in this House. And I do take the request as being genuine, so I really do appreciate it. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, if I may then proceed.The Department is currently reviewing the composition and the relationships of the Special Investigation Unit within the Department in order to enhance efficiency. Major departments like theDepartment of Health which has in excess of 50 000 staff and has complex systems inclusive of complex procurement procedures require capacity to assess risks, analyse them, developsystems to reduce the risk and monitor and evaluate these systems.
2255The Department is beefing up the internal controls and audit unit within the Department. This, as a unit, is responsible for spearheading internal audit within the Department, monitoring andevaluation and attendance to risk analysis. It will relate with the Internal Audit Unit of the Province, which was created in accordance with the Cabinet decision of 1997.The Special Investigations Unit, on the other hand, will continue to be responsible for the identification and investigation of fraud and corruption within the Department but will work closely withthe Provincial Internal Audit Unit.In the past few weeks, the Department has endured focal criticism and was accused of mishandling an investigation into Mr Leon Wolmarans, the Head of the Special Investigation Unit withinthe Department. Contrary to the perceptions that have been created, my Department was simply acting on evidence of malpractice and irregular actions by a senior official, who himself wasemployed to protect the Department against such acts. It was the intention of the Department that Mr Wolmarans be given an opportunity to refute the evidence. I noted that in yesterday'sdebate, the hon Mrs Ngcobo raised this issue. I trust that she will also be satisfied with the explanation as it will be coming forth.It was the intention of the Department that Mr Wolmarans be given an opportunity to refute the evidence, before a disciplinary hearing, that the Department was presented with. Mr Wolmaranswas presumed innocent, and was asked to answer to the charges based on the evidence below. And I want to again indicate that these were the charges but we were in the process of justwanting them clarified. We had not concluded our investigations but the point is this was the evidence that we were pursuing when we started the investigation.> Charge 1: FraudGiving false statements in the execution of his duties:Mr Wolmarans presented a contract to the Head of Department on or about 25 November 2002, purporting to be a contract entered into between the Department and a firm ofconsultants, Volker, Wattrus & De Wit (Pty) Ltd. It was determined that the document had only been created on 13 November 2002, whilst it purported to have been entered into andsigned on 1 March 2001. The document was valid for two years, 1 March 2001 to 31 March 2003.When Mr Wolmarans presented such a document, his conduct amounted to a misrepresentation, which resulted in actual and/or potential prejudice. The Department argued that theintention was to mislead the Head of Department into believing that the document was valid and a binding agreement entered into and signed by both parties on 1 March 2001. Thisamounted to fraud.It appeared from the signatures contained on the disputed document that Mr John de Wit, the director of VWD was an accomplice to the creation of the said document. He was, priorto the start of the disciplinary hearing of the late Mr Wolmarans, formally reported to the Commercial Branch Unit of the SAPS and a subsequent case has been opened againstMr John de Wit of VWD.The issue of this contract was subject to an investigation where an affidavit of the internal auditors, people who went into the computer mainframe, were able to extract and determinethe exact date when that document was created, and there is evidence to the effect that the date which is purported to be the date of signature, is long before the date when in fact thedocument was created in the computer. We have got evidence of even the entry times and movements of people who were involved in this particular issue because this was actuallyinvestigated. So we wanted this issue to be explained.> Gross NegligenceThe Department has argued that the official was grossly negligent in the execution of his duties as the Head of the Special Investigation Unit in that he failed to ensure that there was acontract duly entered into between the Department and the firm of consultants, Messrs Volker, Wattrus & De Wit (Pty) Ltd and in terms of which the services of the said firm ofconsultants were engaged by the Department, alternatively the Unit.
2256During the period of May 1999 to January 2003, Wolmarans authorised 52 payments, in excess of R9 million, to the said firm of consultants. On each occasion he did so prior todetermining whether there was a contract duly entered into, which would regulate the said payments. It was evident that this occurred over a prolonged period and was not an isolatedincident.His conduct amounted to gross negligence due to the number of payments made and the amounts paid. He was fully aware of the prescribed Departmental Procurement Policies andProcedures, as he and his Unit were responsible for enforcing the said policies, investigating and initiating disciplinary proceedings against those officials who failed to comply with thesame. We are concerned that the amount over the particular period might be a lot more than what should in fact have been paid for that kind of service.> Contravention of Legislation:Failure to comply with, or contravening any Act, Regulation or legal obligation (KZN Department of Health Procurement Policy Ref LOG72 dated 14/10/1999)On or about 13 December 2000 he did not follow proper procurement procedures in respect of urgent and emergency cases when procuring C-Track Units including software in theamount of R56 145.Wolmarans had, without written authority, authorised the payment of the C-Tracking devices installed in ministerial vehicles. This was done without the knowledge of the authoritiesand such devices were never intended for ministerial vehicles. He had not complied with the requirements in terms of Departmental procurement policies and procedures, and inrespect of emergency delegations. Wolmarans produced an unsigned submission to the Head of Department on or about 25 November 2002, that he allegedly submitted toMr Conradie, the Chief Financial Officer, prior to authorising the payment on 13 December 2000. There is no record that this submission was signed or approved by Mr Conradie orthe Superintendent General or the Minister.> Common Law Offences:Committing a Common Law or Statutory Offence on State Premises by contravening the provisions of the Interception and Monitoring Act No 127 of 1992.On or about 9 or 10 August 2000 at the Provincial Medical Supplies Component, situated at Clairwood Hospital, Durban, <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>, he took members of the Unit to intentionallyand without the knowledge of the despatcher, intercept a communication which had been or was intended to be transmitted by telephone or in any other manner over atelecommunications line, directed that members of the Unit should intentionally monitor (that is bug) a conversation by means of a monitoring device so as to gather informationconcerning any person, body or organisation without the knowledge of the Head of Department or authority of a judicial officer. This action can only be performed by NationalIntelligence Officers after a court order authorising such action.Wolmarans had authorised illegal and unlawful monitoring of other officials' telephone conversations by members of his Unit. This constitutes a statutory offence in terms of Act 127 of1992, the Prohibition on Third Party Monitoring Act, that protects an individual's fundamental right to privacy.> Wilfully or negligently mismanaged the finance of the StateDuring the year 2001, he authorised the procurement of equipment which can best be described as camping equipment, consisting of six purchases totalling R17 591,66 that wouldnever have been utilised, taking into consideration the nature of the duties of the Unit, procurement which was wasteful and fruitless expenditure, by contravention of the PFMA andTreasury regulations. (The orders' dates are 17/05/2001, 07/06/2001, 08/06/2001 and 03/07/2001).Wolmarans authorised the procurement of a number of items of equipment not ordinarily associated with the scope of work performed by the Special Investigating Unit. These itemswere issued to various officials of the SIU as personal issue. When the investigating team recovered the same during the course of verifying assets, it was further determined that themajority of these items had never been used and were still in their original state. There was further evidence that these items were already available as the Department had purchasedthe items during the cholera epidemic.
2257On 15 March 2000, he authorised the procurement of a Win Radio in the amount of R7 734 and TX7 surveillance transmitters in the amount of R6 400. He and his staff wereprohibited from using such equipment, in terms of Statutory Law and therefore these would never have been lawfully used by them. The procurement was therefore a wasteful andfruitless expenditure.Mr Wolmarans also authorised the purchase of equipment that one is prohibited from using in terms of the law. The Head of Department and the Department itself would not haveagreed to or authorised unlawful conduct, and hence the wasteful expenditure.During the period of 10 May 1999 to 12 March 2001 he authorised 22 payments totalling R1 724 886,01 for the period. For the period 8 May 2001 to 6 January 2003 he authorised 30payments totalling R8 047 384,64 in favour of Volker, Wattrus and De Wit (Pty) Ltd without authority and which is irregular expenditure.He had no authority to enter into any agreement with VWD in terms of departmental procurement policies and procedures. Only the Head of Department had such authority. Providedthe said authority was obtained, Wolmarans would only then have been authorised to approve payments provided the amounts being paid on each occasion did not exceed hisdelegated authority. However, the Head of Department had not authorised the agreement in the first instance and therefore the payments were made without authority. In terms of thePFMA such payments are deemed to have been irregular expenditure.The investigating team admitted that Mr Wolmarans authorised the said payments, however they had not as yet offered any explanation with regard to whether the expenditure wasirregular.Regarding the headlines of the <strong>Natal</strong> Witness dated 12 June 2003 which read as follows, "Health fraud probe collapses", I submit that the entire article was misleading to the public.The Department had refused to pay an account due to VWD which on the face of it was irregular. This was queried with VWD, and the reason for non-payment was that the accountdid not comply with PFMA provisions. The account read something like this, "Work done in Durban hospitals R300 000." Signed and to be paid.It appears that similar accounts had been paid in the past and therefore the Department refused to pay such an account. To confirm that the Department was correct, Mr E Volkerwrote to the <strong>Natal</strong> Witness in a letter to the editor published yesterday as follows:Following a spate of media reports, there is a growing misconception amongst the public about the current status of Operation Cure, as well as the Department of Health'scommitment to the process. It is true that the progress had initially slowed down as a result of the internal investigation undertaken by the Department. It has never, however,been suggested that the operation had been discontinued. The internal investigation has revealed significant administrational shortcomings, which have to be addressed.Professor Green-Thompson, as Head of Department has, as he is obliged to, acted in terms of the Public Finance Management Act.The delay in payment to our firm for investigative work undertaken to date is quite conceivably based on queries, which the professor must resolve before payment can beeffected. The Act requires this.The concept that Volker Wattrus and De Wit might be entitled to destroy its workings, as suggested in the paper last week, is not only unfounded but also ridiculous. The firmhas aligned itself to the Department's commitment to eradicate corruption.That is the letter written in response to those very horrifying headlines.As members of this House can see, these charges were quite serious and the onus was on the official, Mr Wolmarans, to refute them. My Head of Department had an obligation, in terms of thePublic Finance Management Act of 1999, to investigate such acts.
It is regrettable that Mr Wolmarans passed away so prematurely and so tragically. We again convey our condolences to his family, his colleagues and friends.2258I have noted numerous accusations by the union, HOSPERSA, whom I am intending to meet very soon to deal with some of these issues. I, however, reject the insinuation and innuendo ascontained in the statements of this union, including allegations that the investigation against Mr Wolmarans and others was meant to cover up the corruption of senior officials of the Departmentof Health.I am not aware of any corruption, nor has there been any evidence submitted to me in this regard. Allegations of tensions amongst members of the Special Unit will also be dealt withadministratively. There are other outstanding matters between the Department and the South African Police Service which will be resolved so that the charges can be laid on other members ofthis unit, as indicated in the internal audit report. But there is no cover up as such.Therefore I call upon members of staff and the public to come forward and report all suspected or proven incidents of corruption. Such reports shall be thoroughly investigated and disciplinarysteps will be taken, irrespective of the seniority of the culprit.So far I am satisfied that the investigation by the Internal Audit of the Treasury is open and transparent and that the disciplinary proceedings are fair. I am very grateful to my colleague and theHead of Department for this support. I reject the call for a judicial commission of inquiry since it will not offer any more than what the current process will achieve. Such a commission mayprove to be a waste of taxpayers' money and the Department has gone through such a route before. The tragic death of the former Director is the subject of a police investigation.However, in the interests of transparency, all subsequent hearings of the members of this team that are being investigated will now be conducted in full view of the media. Members of themedia are requested to contact the Department of Health to find out about the dates of the hearings. The case against Mr Wolmarans has been discontinued. All the records and transcripts ofthe proceedings will be made available to the media on request. On this matter I want full transparency and everything shall be done in the open because it is unacceptable that a cloud ofsuspicion should hang over the Department which is committed to rooting out corruption.Once again we were very saddened by the loss of Mr Wolmarans who in the past had offered excellent service to the Department and had himself contributed to the eradication of corruption.Thank you.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr Minister. Just two things that I think need to be dealt with. There was an omission here of the announcement to members of the Economic Development andTourism Portfolio Committee. If there is any member who is still in the House, the meeting was supposed to start at 12:00 in the IFP caucus room. That is what we have been advised and ifthere is a member who is still in the House who should be participating in that meeting, could they take it into account and check please?The second one is that there are glasses here which have been picked up in the passage by the men's toilet. Is somebody missing their glasses? Could they check please? They will have toidentify them. There was a time when I thought that people did not steal glasses but since mine got lost, I do not have another option but to think that there are still people who may beinterested in taking other people's glasses. So will they identify it? If it is a member of the public, please inform us through the messengers at the back here. Thank you.That item is now therefore passed, Item 8.1.2. We therefore go on to Item 8.2. and that is the debate by the hon Minister of Transport.MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Point of order, Mr Speaker.THE SPEAKER: Yes, Mrs Cronje.MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): When the Whips met yesterday we realised that the item on the report of the Safety and Security Committee would fall away. We then agreed that it was
2259unfair on the MEC for Transport, to expect him at short notice to change his speaking time because his debate is scheduled for after lunch. The Chief Whips then agreed that this will be anextended lunchtime and that it gives the committees that have business to do, the opportunity to do so. I am very sorry, because we did discuss it with the head of proceedings, if that messagewas not conveyed to the Speaker's office. But that is the agreement because we felt it is unfair to throw the programme of the MEC and other speakers, who have timed themselves to speak inthe afternoon, into disarray at the last minute. So we should now break for an extended lunch and reconvene at quarter past two, as per the original programme.THE SPEAKER: Thank you very much, Mrs Cronje. I must apologise to members. I was totally unaware of that arrangement. I have just been asking from the secretariat here and theyconfirm that they have knowledge of that arrangement. They have apologised for not informing us. But we were not aware.It is therefore time to adjourn this meeting until after lunch. Yes, Mrs Cronje?MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): I hear informal questions, when is after lunch? According to the programme, and we did suggest as Whips that we keep to the programme. It is until 14:15.THE SPEAKER: Thank you very much for that because it does indicate here in our revised programme that lunch is going to be from 12:10 to 14:15. Therefore this House is adjourned until14:15. Thank you.THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE SUSPENDED AT 12:26RESUMED AT 14:15THE SPEAKER: Colleagues, will the person who has lost his specs come to the office of the Speaker to pick them up?We will then move to item 8.2.8.2 DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT IN TERMS OF RULE 10(4)THE SPEAKER: To start the debate I will call upon Mr M J Mthiyane who has three minutes.MR M J MTHIYANE: Mr Speaker, and the hon House, may I take this opportunity to thank you for allowing me to say a few words in this debate.THE SPEAKER: Order! There is a point of order.MR H L COMBRINCK: (Deputy Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, I do not know if we can resume the debate while the Minister is not present. We can find out maybe where the Minister is.THE SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Minister, you are back now. You may proceed, hon member Mr Mthiyane.MR M J MTHIYANE: Thank you. Mr Speaker, and the hon House, may I take this opportunity to thank you for allowing me to say a few words in this debate. I would also like to commend theMinister of Transport for the good report he tabled yesterday.The Minister touched on the training of our taxi drivers and other drivers. I want to dwell on that subject. It was a good idea for the Department of Transport to take the initiative to implementthe Skills Development Programme for the taxi industry.The training of our taxi drivers is very important. The reason why I say that is because every day the lives of our people are in their hands from sunrise till sunset. The people of our communityuse taxis more than any other transport. Therefore the safety of our passengers and of our vehicles is the most important matter.
2260Another aspect is that the tyres that we are using on our vehicles are not strong enough to carry the load. Most of our taxis are overturning, not because of speeding, but I think the tyres have agreat impact on this. These tyres burst easily which causes the vehicle to overturn. I therefore suggest that the Department of Transport should conduct an inspection, in conjunction withinstitutions such as SABS, in order to assess the quality and the condition of the tyres, as well as the factories where they are being manufactured.May I also ask the Minister of Transport to stop naming the projects because the first project was Siyabakhumbulu bafa abantu.THE SPEAKER: 30 seconds left.MR M J MTHIYANE: The second project was Asiphephe. More people died. Now there is Siyabona Bonakala. More people will die. Therefore please just leave the project as it is, Minister.Do not name it. I thank you.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE SPEAKER: Thank you. I then call upon the hon member Mrs Tambo. You have seven minutes to deliberate.MISS V TAMBO: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think it is necessary in paying tribute, to acknowledge and thank the Minister of Transport for the good work being done and specifically andpersonally for the views which he stated in his report yesterday. It is, however, pleasing that the Department has made excellent progress in improving the safety of our youth by introducingvarious programmes focused directly on the youth from the very early age of three years.Three programmes are in place specifically directed towards the youth. These programmes will provide our youth with the necessary guidance to protect themselves from being the victims ofaccidents.Because this Department's concern is to curb road accidents, it has introduced self-illuminating studs or cats' eyes which enable the drivers to see the road even during bad weather. It evenhelps those long-distance drivers who travel from other provinces to <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>.The Minister has reported that they will be launching the Siyabona Bonakala Campaign. That is another initiative that I am sure will enable the drivers to see the road clearly and will assist inreducing road accidents. Therefore it is our duty here in this House to popularise the campaign.I am very impressed with the Department of Transport for the manner in which it is addressing and introducing programmes pertaining to our future generation, the youth. It has not forgottenthe role that the youth played in ensuring a democratic country and that apartheid was buried. So many of our youth died to accelerate the pace of change.I must commend all the ANC Ministers.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!MISS V TAMBO: There is no doubt that they are really implementing the policies of the ANC-led Government in this country correctly. And they are getting a response.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Continue hon member.
MISS V TAMBO: The changes that are taking place in our country attest to this and gradually we are pushing back the frontiers of poverty.2261Despite the problems that this Department experienced in the past, it never stopped expanding on its service delivery. It has also embarked on improving the lives of the youth. Therefore it isalso important that the families must support the development of the child's opinions in line with the reality of the new South Africa.The teaching process between parent and child is not a formal instructional exercise but rather a day to day exchange of views. Our strategy must be clear and our efforts focused. As a prioritywe must approach the youth and everything associated with the youth. I also urge all departments to come up with programmes pertaining to youth development.Mr Speaker, I must bring to your attention that as hon members of this House, it is also our duty to make sure that the identified challenges facing our youth such as HIV/AIDS, poverty,unemployment, street children and death as a result of road accidents are eradicated in our country. These challenges do not only face the Transport Department.I am satisfied with the Department of Transport programmes because they reach even the most disadvantaged areas, rural and farm areas. We also acknowledge the work done by the ArriveAlive campaign and the zero tolerance stance taken by the <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Department of Transport.We also urge the Department to be more pro-active in dealing with those who still resist complying with the rules of the road.THE SPEAKER: A minute left.MISS V TAMBO: According to the statistics it is clear that the defaulters are reducing day by day. That shows clearly that our KZN motorists are gradually understanding what is needed fromthem on the roads, and that they must adhere to the rules of the road.Mr Speaker, in the near future we would like the Department of Transport to provide us with the statistics of the defaulters, road offenders from other provinces, that are using our roads. I thankyou.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE SPEAKER: Thank you. I will then call upon the hon member Mr Edwards. You have four minutes.MR B V EDWARDS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The hon MEC for Transport is thanked for his most relevant and sobering report on road deaths and road safety campaigns, particularly with afocus on the role and impact on the youth.The Province of <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> has certainly played an important part in promoting the country's road safety initiatives. The Asiphephe or Arrive Alive programme has no doubt made anindelible impact on the minds of most, especially vehicle drivers, through its excellent media coverage.One must question, however, if sufficient is being done in educating pedestrians, many of whom the media does not reach. Also is sufficient being done to educate the youth at schools on lifeskills relating to road safety, concerning themselves, their peers and even their parents?My observation is that in the case of both pedestrians and schoolchildren not sufficient is being done and a new focus on these vulnerable groups is most essential.Specific programmes, Mr Speaker, need to be developed and implemented, if this has not already been done, and, if so, it would be most important that members be informed fully in order thatwe can assist where we are able to.
2262The hon MEC in his report highlighted that during April/May this year, and in fact each year, more pedestrians die on our roads than other road users. There were eight out of ten reported inApril and 21 out of 58 in May. That was a low month in pedestrian deaths. Many of these are children but accurate statistics are apparently not available for the past year.Replying to a question posed by the NNP in the National Council of Provinces, the National Minister of Transport advised in April this year that the capturing of road traffic information from theformal accident report forms for the year 2002 on the National Traffic Information System is not complete as yet.It is expected that the comprehensive statistics will only be available towards the middle of this year. It is just about due now. This information only includes reported fatal accidents and there isa substantial percentage of unreported fatal accidents. Very little information on non-fatal accidents is available.What is of concern is that available information reveals the total fatal accidents in the year 2002, the total for the whole country, are as follows:FATAL ACCIDENTS:Reported Unreported Total ReportingRateReportedFatalitiesTotal Country 6 329 3 489 9 818 64,6% 7 897In <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> 922 1 127 2 049 45% 1 138In <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> the percentage was 21%. Only Gauteng of all the provinces was higher with 1 835 reported fatalities or 24% of the total.While there has been a slight reduction in fatal accidents compared to the previous year, South Africa is reported to have one of the highest rates of deaths pro rata to population and vehiclenumbers.The cost of these fatal accidents and burden on the economy is staggering.THE SPEAKER: A minute left.MR B V EDWARDS: The total estimated cost of fatal accidents in 2002 is estimated at: National R4,318 billion, in <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> R901 million. That is also 21%.This excludes the cost of non-fatal accidents which could be up to ten times as much, and also the cost of life assurance claims.The impact on the economy is no doubt most damaging, not only in rand costs but in the lives of the cream of our youth, many of whom may be future leaders.We also need to step up our numbers of law enforcement traffic officers. Per kilometre of road presently, the reported number is 455 for 37029 kilometres. We have one of the lowest ratios inkilometres policed in South Africa - 13 officers per 10 000 vehicles; one officer for 81 kilometres. In Gauteng they are the lowest. They have one officer per 20 kilometres, 385 officers.Of course there are budgetary constraints, Mr Speaker, but more needs to be done, including innovative thinking to step up our road safety standards and halt the unacceptable carnage on ourroads.
2263THE SPEAKER: The hon member's time is up.MR B V EDWARDS: The USA, for instance, control with dummy vehicles with blue lights and dummy traffic officers. Thank you, Mr Speaker.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE SPEAKER: We then call upon the hon member Mr Rajbansi. You have four minutes.MR A RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Like the hon members, I want to compliment the Minister of Transport and the Department of Transport, especially that component of theDepartment that is dealing with the traffic safety and road safety, skills development training, etcetera.Mr Speaker, there is another aspect of our safety which I want to deal with. It is an examination in respect of the real cause of accidents. I want to recommend very strongly to the hon Ministerand the Department to take very strong action against drunken driving.On a previous occasion I gave certain statistics in respect of the success rate of our "booze bus". I did indicate whether the booze bus managed to achieve successes in a former black Africanarea or a former white area or a former Indian area, a very large percentage of those who have been arrested by the booze bus happened to be South Africans of Indian origin. I did indicatethat it was not action against Indians in particular but I think it is of grave concern that drunken driving is the cause of quite a fair percentage of our problem.With particular emphasis on youth, I want to recommend very strongly to the hon Minister that he develops a stronger road safety arm, a mobile road safety education and training programmethat can visit schools on a regular basis, with strong measures in respect of active participation of our children, at a very early age, in driver training and road safety programmes.I do not want to repeat the statistics that were given in respect of our accident figures. But the one area on which our country has to be complimented is the regulating and the discipline that hasbeen brought into the taxi industry.I also want to compliment the Minister for his strengthening of the driver training programme. I am sure that with the skills development programme we will go a long way towards making ourroads and our environment safer.I also want to suggest that we learn something from our portfolio committee's visit to China in respect of the safety of the vehicles, their roadworthiness.THE SPEAKER: A minute left.MR A RAJBANSI: I want to compliment the Minister for the advertising campaign. I was particularly impressed during the Comrades Marathon on television and on the radio where there wereadverts on safety. Some people believe that when you look at speed you must not say speed kills, speed thrills. For those people there should be no place on our roads. But, to a large extent,we must also quantify the contribution of the taxi industry to the economy and the industry of our country. It is really remarkable and I hope one day the Minister quantifies these figures for us.Thank you.THE SPEAKER: Thank you. I then call upon the hon member Mrs Downs. She is not in the Chamber. Mr Qoma is not in the Chamber. I then call upon the hon member Mr Slabbert. Youhave three minutes to deliberate.MR J SLABBERT: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Seeing the previous two speakers did not take up their time, I hope to get nine minutes. [LAUGHTER]Mr Speaker, allow me to congratulate the hon MEC of Transport and his staff for a very comprehensive and positive report delivered yesterday. We will follow the progress of the new and
2264innovative projects for road safety with great expectation.I want to deal with road safety as such. Maybe I will say things that the House will not agree with, but I want to speak my mind. I have been involved with transport for many years and I am surewhat I am going to say is correct.One thing that we must remember, we cannot always blame the Ministers of Transport nationally and provincially for each and every accident, because they are not traffic officials.Mr Speaker, road safety has for far too long been a challenge in South Africa. Every year, and specifically during the holiday season, members of the public either become spectators, as thedeath toll mounts and is reported on in the media, or road accident statistics themselves.Every year our traffic authorities make special plans and spend millions of rands in order to bring down the death toll, with very limited success. This is a thoroughly depressing state of affairsand underlines my point that road safety can no longer be described as merely a challenge. No, the clear absence of safety on our roads must now be described as a national crisis.It is a national crisis because of the loss of life, and the huge financial and economic costs. The Arrive Alive campaign, sir, is a good idea on paper. But I am sorry to say that I think it has failed.Instead of bringing down the death toll on our roads, it appears to have become a very expensive collector and disseminator of statistics.THE SPEAKER: A minute left.MR J SLABBERT: Surely this was never the intention, but unfortunately it has become a reality. The failure of Arrive Alive is but one element of the general failure of strict law-enforcement onSouth African roads. That is the reason why Arrive Alive failed.We have more than enough traffic laws and regulations on the statute books. In general, these laws are very good laws on paper at least, but the enforcement leaves much to be desired.In my opinion, this failure of traffic law enforcement constitutes a national crisis. Most, if not all, of the members in this House have seen the impunity with which motorists flaunt our traffic laws,speeding, drunken driving, unroadworthy vehicles, and overloading are just some of the brazen acts of lawlessness.THE SPEAKER: The hon member's time is up.MR J SLABBERT: What about the other eight minutes? [LAUGHTER]THE SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. I then call upon the hon member Mr Keys. You have six minutes.MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Thank you, Mr Speaker. One needs to ask what the Department of Transport can do with the youth and for the youth of our country. The Minister has indicatedwhat it has done, namely:- The Young Road-user Project- The Education Techniques Project- Student Driver Education Project; and the- Public Internship Programme.
2265The Minister then went on to promote the Growth and Development Summit which is to intensify public works programmes and public investment initiatives.The Umsobomvu Youth Fund Service Project sounds good at face value, but it does not seem to me to develop real skills that will build a foundation for the rest of their lives. Like too many ofthe training schedules around the country, we are saturated with short courses where the participants are rewarded with a certificate to say, "You have participated in a course." all thiscertificate does is give a "feel good experience".These short period courses are no substitute for the real thing: qualified artisans and professionals. If we were to invest in promoting the development of artisans and professionals, those arethe real qualifications we need.What happened to all those training opportunities where government departments would train young people to become artisans, and then they themselves would become employers of otheryouth? These short duration courses are in fact a fob off and do not do the youth of our Province any favours, with respect, Mr Minister.When they complete them, they go on to the next short-term course where they will get another certificate to say they participated in this. There is no quality, there are no tests, there are nostandards, there is no uniformity. They are not recognised.The Minister has indicated that his 12-month course is recognised and will be run by a tertiary institution, but we need this to be recognised by the employers and industry in this country.The youth gather these certificates like badges and falsely believe that they are becoming more and more qualified. No, Mr Minister, the most substantial assistance your Department could giveto our youth is substantive training as artisans and engineers, something the economy of our country is becoming more and more short of.Of interest to all the members in this House is whether the Department has awarded any bursaries to young people and, if so, how many? How many apprentices are under the employ of theDepartment or funded by the Department?In 1994 there were in excess of 25 000 artisans in the iron and steel industry alone. Today we have a paltry number of 1 800. Where are these artisans? Where are our skills? It is adownward cycle that is gripping our country and we need to stem it.Let us also examine Siyabona Bonakala. A vital step to safer roads is to be able to see and for the others to see me. That we support, Mr Minister. I hope the Minister, however, is not going tostart a branch of the medical profession by employing optometrists and opticians, and why he wants to compare the service provided by the private sector to what he is planning. Is this aFreudian slip which indicates a lack of confidence in the public health sector? I hope not for the sake of all those who queue up and put their trust in the public health sector.As regards the taxi industry, yes, the Minister is correct. It is the prime example of black empowerment. But when we see the number of accidents and deaths caused on our roads by baddriving and, as my colleagues have identified earlier, the bad condition of these vehicles, the illegal drivers, the rattletrap scrap iron that passes for taxis and the disregard for the lives of ourcommuters, one is tempted to regard this industry as a prime example of black genocide.The Minister was totally silent on the introduction of the points system for drivers. When will that become a reality? Or is this another example of the government's wish list. If the youth aretrained to drive, the points system must be in place to show that the government is serious about quality driving and serious about punishing offenders where it hurts, by removing their right topossess a licence.THE SPEAKER: A minute left.MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Regarding the employment practices of the Department, when it engages in the construction of roads, will the Minister explain why the process is handed over tothe transport forums to identify those whom the Department should employ? Surely this is politically loaded and councillors will identify for employment only those who belong to their parties?
2266Surely the Department must be able to go wider than this and approach NGOs and CBOs in the different areas to allow for the widest and fairest possible employment practices? I sincerelyhope that the Minister is not employing people just because they belong to his party. Of course not.Finally, colleagues, the youth are our future. Resources must be committed to our future and therefore committed to our youth. Effectively train our youth. Let them become the leaders thatthis country deserves so that we can become a winning nation, as we all believe we can.THE SPEAKER: The hon member's time is up.MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): I thank you.THE SPEAKER: Thank you. We then call upon the hon member Dr Radebe. You have seven minutes.DR B M RADEBE: Angibonge Somlomo. Mhlawumbe umuntu akaqale ngokuthi ngeSonto besisemcimbini omuhle lapha KwaDukuza eNkanini. Umuntu wazibuza esesuka kuwona ukuthikodwa umuntu uyingxenye yini yaleliPhalamende ngendlela umoya wawumuhle ngakhona. Nobuqiniso obabukhulunywa laphaya. Enye into kuye kuthiwe abantu bala e-South Africa 78% arechristians. But uma usuhlala phansi u-analyse ubone ukuthi ngempela abantu kulo 78% umangase kube amakholwa ingabanjani i-South Africa, kungaba elinye izwe.Ukuphendula lento eshiwo ilungu elihloniphekile uBaba uMthiyane as a christian bengicabanga ukuthi kufanele ukuthi anezezele amanye amagama kulawa ashiwo uNgqongqoshengoSiyabakhumbula nabanye to save life, wavela nokuthi yena awaqedwe. Somlomo, bengithi angidlule lapho.Somlomo, into ebalulekile la kuyafanele sinikeze i-credit la kufanele siyinikeze khona. Siyeke ukugxeka noma kungeke kusisize ukugxeka. La kulesiFunda sa<strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>i uMnyangoweZokuthutha kuphela uma kukhulunywa ngokuthi abantu, ukuthi abantu babamba iqhaza kuHulumeni ekwenzayo lokho.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!DR B M RADEBE: Umnyango weZokuthutha kuphela okwazi ukubiza izimbizo, Amakhosi, Izinduna, Abefundisi, abesifazane, abesilisa, abasha bagcwele lapha e-DLI Hall. Kuzonikezwairiphothi kubantu bomphakathi ukuthi nasi isabelo sethu sezimali. Ayi uku-mobilise ngokwepolitiki.Kuthiwe nasi isabelo sezimali esisitholile kulonyaka. Kubizwe ama-Transport Forum okuyiwona aqhamuka nama-programme okuthi imigwaqo yakhiwa kanjani kuphi, iyona kuphela eyenzenjalo. Basho abantu zibekwe lapha njengoba kade ngibona ekuseni kwenziwa abekwa ama-figures, kuthiwe imali ethile izokwenza ukuthi, imali ethile izokwenza ukuthi, kuqalwe kunikezweamariphothi ukuthi imali ebesinayo ngonyaka odlule yenze one, two, three, four, and five.Kudlule lapho, iqhamuke manje nama-programmes amasha ukuthi kulesabelo sezimali esizitholile sizokwenza u-one, two, three, four, and five. Namhlanje kunabafelokazi abafundisa izinganezabo ema-university ngenxa yoMnyango weZokuthutha, Ozibambele.HON MEMBERS: Kunjalo! [Indeed].DR B M RADEBE: Asoke sincome bakithi kesibe honest for a change kanye silikhulume iqiniso siyiyeke ipolitiki. Uma kukhona into engahambi kahle siyisho futhi.TRANSLATION: Thank you Mr Speaker. Perhaps one should start off by mentioning that on Sunday we were at a function at Nkanini in KwaDukuza. Upon leaving that function one askedoneself if one is really part of this Parliament, due to the fact that the atmosphere was very pleasant, and the truth that was spoken there. The other thing is, it is argued that 78% of SouthAfricans are Christians, but when you sit down and analyse the situation you find that if 78% of these people are believers, South Africa could undoubtedly be a different country.
2267To answer what has been said by the hon member Mr Mthiyane as a Christian, I thought he should add to what the Minister mentioned about the Siyabakhumbula and other campaigns to savelife, he suggested that they must be done away with. Mr Speaker, I thought I should mention that.Mr Speaker, it is important that we give credit where it is due. We must desist from criticising where such criticism will not do us any good. In this Province of <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong>, it is only theDepartment of Transport that means it when talking about participating in government. It is only the Department of Transport that calls Izimbizo and invites Amakhosi, Izinduna, Reverends,women, men and the youth to the DLI Hall. The public is called to be given a report about their budget, not to mobilise them politically.The current year's budget is tabled. Transport Forums who came up with programmes regarding the know-how of road construction are called. People make their input which is presented as Isaw this morning. Figures were given on how much is to be used for what, but before that a report was presented that last year's funds did one, two, three, four and five.From there it has come up with new programmes that the new budget will be used for one, two, three, four and five. Today there are widows who send their children to universities because ofthe Zibambele Campaign by the Department of Transport.We must sometimes praise members and be honest for a change and for once refrain from politicking. If there is something wrong we must say so. T/ETHE SPEAKER: Order! There is a point of order, hon member Mrs Gasa, what is your point of order?MRS F X GASA: Can the hon member please not say he does not want to take a question that I would like to ask him.THE SPEAKER: Are you prepared to take a question, hon member Dr Radebe?DR B M RADEBE: Ngiyadabuka ngoba umakoti wangakithi angizukuwuthatha makoti wangakithi. [I am sorry because she is a bride of my home boy, but I am not going to take it].THE SPEAKER: Order, hon member, order! Akazuwuthatha umbuzo. [He is not going to take the question]. Continue hon member.DR B M RADEBE: Bengithi Somlomo, kesilikhulume iqiniso bakithi kanye, kanye mhlawumbe emva kwalokho sife uma sifa. [I was saying Mr Speaker, we must speak the truth at least once,and perhaps we can die after that if we have to].THE SPEAKER: Order, hon member, Dr Radebe. There is a point of order.MR S B NGIDI: Hon member Mrs F X Gasa, is not makoti. Uma efuna ukukhuluma ngaye akathi hon member Mrs F X Gasa not makoti. [Hon member Mrs F X Gasa, is not a bride. If hewants to talk about her he should refer to her as hon member Mrs F X Gasa, not bride].HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.DR B M RADEBE: Uyazi kuyahlupha Somlomo, ngoba izikhundla sizifuna size sizifune lapho zingekho khona. USihlalo we-Portfolio Committe ilungu elihloniphekile uNgidi ngicabanga ukuthiusefike phezu kwe-ceiling angabe esafuna okungaphezu kwakhe. [UHLEKO]Ngiqhubeke Somlomo, ngithi sike sathathwa uMnyango weZokuthutha wasisa le e-Shakaland safika sabona isimanga sento esingakaze siyibone okuthi noma inkungu ikhasa phansi uyibambeimoto yakho ngo-120 KM uwubone umgwaqo ukuthi usuka la ugcina la uma uhamba uhamba la uphela la. Izinto ebezingekho e-South Africa lezo let us give a credit la kufanele siyinikezekhona.
2268Abafelokazi namhlanje banezingane ezisema-Technikon, ezisema-university ngoZibambele owayengekho ngaphambili. UNgqongqoshe akanayo ifemu yokwakha amathayi ngeke futhi azeawakhe. Kodwa imithetho ebekwe uMnyango - kade siseNqutu la osomatekisi bonke baseNqutu - enye into efanele siyilungise Somlomo, amalungu ePhalamende awayihambele imicimbikaHulumeni khona ezofunda. Silaphaya o-driver bonke i-Region yaseMzinyathi including iMeya uBaba uYengwa benikwa izitifiketi, benikwa ama-computer, ukuthi sebeqeqeshiwe intoebingekho bakithi ngaphambili.HON MEMBERS: Kunjalo! [Indeed]!DR B M RADEBE: Asiyeke ukusebenzisa ipolitiki la ingasisizi khona at the end of the day sihambe siyongcwaba abantu bakithi just because sifuna - lathi ilungu elihloniphekile uBheki wathikufunakala singatholakali endaweni e-wrong. That is a problem sifuna ukutholakala sisho izinto ezi-wrong ngoba ngifuna ukuthola amavoti entweni engekho.Enye into yesibili, engifuna ukuyisho sengihlala phansi uthi sesinenye manje siqale koSiyabakhumbula, Alive Arrive,...THE SPEAKER: Kusele umzuzu owodwa. [One minute remaining].DR B M RADEBE: Siyabona Bonakala uSihlalo wami ilungu elihloniphekile lapha uBaba uMalakoana sasinabo nelungu elihloniphekile uBaba uNgidi. Siyobuka lento sisuka koMthonjaneniinkungu ikhasa phansi ebusuku ubone umgwaqo uze uyofika Olundi 19 ubone ukuthi nangu umgwaqo 1 KM away from la ukhona kunezinkungu. Izinto ebezingekho ukuphephisa izimpilozabantu bakithi.Sithi Manzankosi, uma ulele ungenzi lutho ngeke kushiwo lutho ngawe, ngeke usho lutho etsheni ngoba lihlezi alinyakazi. But uma izinto ziyobakhona sifune ukuvuna nalapho singatshalangakhona. Ngakho sithi Manzankosi, neNhloko yoMnyango uBaba uMbanjwa, isitafu sonke soMnyango sithi qhubekani ekugcineni kosuku uNkulunkulu uyonizuzisa ngokusiza imiphefumuloyabantu.Iriphothi yakho Manzankosi ngiyasho ngiyaphinda akavele omunye othi...THE SPEAKER: Time is up hon member.DR B M RADEBE: ...okenze lento oyenzayo ukubize ama-public - ngiyabonga.TRANSLATION: You know it is a problem Mr Speaker, because we even look for positions where there is none. I think the Chairperson of the portfolio committee, the hon member Mr Ngidi,has reached the ceiling and should not ask for more. [LAUGHTER]Let me proceed Mr Speaker. We were taken to Shakaland by the Department of Transport where we saw an amazing thing, which we had never seen before, that though there is thick mistand you are driving at 120 km per hour, you can still see the width of the road. These things were not there in South Africa and let us give credit where it is due.Widows today have children at Technikons and Universities all because of Zibambele which did not exist before. The Minister does not have a tyre manufacturing firm and he will notmanufacture them, but there are regulations laid down by the Department - we have been at Nqutu where all taxi operators - the other thing Mr Speaker, members of Parliament must attendgovernment functions so that they can learn. While we were there all drivers in the Umzinyathi region, including the mayor Mr Yengwa, were issued with certificates and given computers andthey have been trained - something that never was before.We must refrain from abusing and misusing politics and at the end of the day we bury our people just because we want - the hon member Bheki said we must not be found at a wrong place.That is a problem we want to be found saying wrong things because I want to get votes on false things.
The second thing I want to say before I resume my seat is that we now have another one. We started with Siyabakhumbula, Arrive Alive, now...2269We see Bonakala my Chairperson, the hon member Mr Malakoana was with us and the hon member Mr Ngidi. We were from Mthonjaneni to see this thing where there was very thick mist atnight, but you could still see the road right up to Ulundi 19, you could see the road 1 kilometre away despite the presence of the mist. These things were not there to save our people's lives.We say Manzankosi, if you are sleeping doing nothing, nothing will be said about you, there is nothing you can say to a rock because it does not move. But if things are there we want to reapwhere we have not sowed. Therefore we say Manzankosi and the Head of Department Mr Mbanjwa, and the whole staff of the Department, carry on with what you are doing. At the end of theday God will shower you with blessings for saving people's lives.About your report Manzankosi, I still reiterate, let anyone dare come and say...... he does what you do by calling public hearings. Thank you. T/ETHE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Malakoana, you have 10 minutes.MR M S MALAKOANA: Angithokoze Baba Somlomo. Angiqale ngokuthi akukho nelilodwa ilungu leqembu leNkatha eliseNkatheni ngoba nakulilubalubela ligaqele isikhundla akwaziwe ukuthiasibona osikhundleni thina obhodwe liyaconsa, onkece babekiwe phambili.TRANSLATION: Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me start off by stating that not a single member of the IFP is a member of the IFP simply because he or she is eager for a position. Let it beknown that we are not position mongers and money lovers. T/EIt is now four and a half years that I have been in this Parliament and in these years I have ensured that I remain relentlessly uncompromising when it comes to treating people or voters likeatoms, like entities, like simpletons, as if they can hardly think. It is a stance I always defend. It is on the basis of the above that I am pleased to participate in this debate.The report tabled by the hon Minister of Transport was well presented to this House, but the only conclusion I can come to is that indeed it is possible to give without loving. I say this in thecontext that the Department of Transport has begun the Taxi Industry Skills Development Project on one hand whilst it pursues its plan of taxi recapitalisation on the other. Taxi recapitalisationis viewed by the taxi operators as a ploy of ensuring that they are sidelined from the mainstream economy, because most of the drivers and taxi-owners are going to lose their jobs. Theirfamilies are going to starve and they may be justified when they say hunger and starvation were somehow at a lesser level during the apartheid era than it is now.I strongly advise the Department and others to reconsider their position about recapitalisation and undertake extensive consultation with the public. I must say that is the view of the IFP.Recapitalisation means that there will be less drivers, less owners than there are today with the current Kombis. Therefore, training drivers before recapitalisation would mean that there aretrained drivers without vehicles to drive and trained owners without cars. It would mean a waste of resources and increased unemployment. Is that not fruitless expenditure?HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.MR M S MALAKOANA: Why spent R1,2 million now on training when that training will result in these job losses I have referred to? Is this not being anti-black economic empowerment? Ileave the answer for anyone to imagine. The caution I give to the Department is that the philosophy of engagement plus containment, gives absolutely no progress, as it maintains the statusquo. Even Vladimir Lenin would have told the Department that "theory without practice means nothing". Zero.I tried last night to read the speech analytically but could only have shivers running down my spine because of some projects which only warrant profligacy. It beats one's understanding whenthere is talk of improving the youth in respect of skills on one hand when there are some confirmed rumours that the Department of Transport has bought and registered an armoured vehicle forits Minister on the other.
2270AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.MR M S MALAKOANA: One would like to be informed by the hon Minister if this is true. And if it is true, the question is, was National Cabinet approval sought in respect of the procurement ofsuch a vehicle, as per the prescript of the Ministerial Handbook?MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): Point of order.THE SPEAKER: There is a point of order. Hon Minister.MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): This is totally misleading the House on Rule 97(2). It is a lie, it is a lie, it is a lie. And that must be withdrawn from the record. The point inquestion is a member must not deliberately mislead the House. It is a lie that the member has just told now.THE SPEAKER: In order to make a proper ruling, hon Minister, I will request that the Minister furnish me with the all the documents so that we will be in a position to make a proper ruling onthis matter.MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): No, Mr Speaker, the speaker is saying that the Department of Transport has bought an armoured vehicle for myself. I do not have an armouredvehicle. There is no armoured vehicle that has been bought by the Department of Transport for myself. So it is a lie and that must be withdrawn. There are no documents to produce. It is a lieand it must be withdrawn.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Malakoana, I hope that you have heard the hon Minister saying that what you said was a lie. What do you say to that?MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): I am taking a point of order, Mr Speaker.THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! There cannot be a point of order on a point of order. I am trying to ascertain something. Order! Order!HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order, please, order! Mr Ntombela, Mr Mthiyane no-Mr Ntombela ake nithule. [Mr Ntombela. Mr Mthiyane and Mr Ntombela could you please be quiet]. Honmember Mr Malakoana.MR M S MALAKOANA: Mr Speaker, I should think I spoke in very lucid English when I said: "There are rumours that..." So if it can be proven otherwise ...HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! What is the point of order, hon member Mrs Cronje?MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): My point of order is in terms of Rule 97(2). A member may not deliberately mislead this House. The hon member in question has deliberately andmaliciously misled this House. There is a request for a withdrawal of a false statement. We demand a withdrawal of a false statement.
THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order, please. I want to hear the point of order, hon member, please.2271MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): There is a request for a withdrawal of a malicious and false misleading statement. So in terms of Rule 97(2), we request that this statement be withdrawnunconditionally and immediately.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order, please, order. I heard you, hon member Malakoana. You said that you suppose you heard some things of that nature. Ngifuna ukuzwa kahle ukuthiutheni. [I want to hear clearly what he said]. If that is not the case then, I will be forced to investigate your statement.DR B M RADEBE: Point of order, Mr Speaker.THE SPEAKER: Then if it is such, I will make my ruling tomorrow in respect of this matter.MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): On the point of order, Mr Speaker, this allegation was made by Mr Keys in this House and we said it was a lie. Now His Master's Voice, becauseit spoke, there is Mr Malakoana making a similar allegation, much more maliciously than Mr Keys did. And we demand that it must be withdrawn according to this Rule. There is noinvestigation. If he has any evidence that the Department of Transport bought an armoured vehicle for me he must produce it. I said to Mr Keys then that I do not need an armoured vehicle. Ido not have any such thing and the Department of Transport has not bought one. You can send the Audit Committee of the Treasury to go and investigate that. So it must be withdrawnunconditionally now.THE SPEAKER: What do you say? I am afraid hon members... What do you say hon member Mr Ngidi?MR S B NGIDI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Rule 97(2) says a member must not deliberately mislead the House. That is a plain English statement which does not necessarily mean if onemember thinks that another member has misled the House, therefore it becomes a truth. That needs to be tested first as to establish whether he has misled the House or not.MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Point of order, Mr Speaker.THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order, please! You finish your statement so that I can understand what you are saying.MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): No, it is a point of order on that.THE SPEAKER: Let him finish so that I will understand. Thank you. Hon member Mr Ngidi, are you finished?MR S B NGIDI: You see, we need to be able to say as this House, that he has deliberately misled the House. For us to make a final judgment that it is a statement of fact that this did happenfirst.MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Point of order, Mr Speaker.MR S B NGIDI: That this is in terms of this Rule. A member must not deliberately mislead the House. Now the question I am asking myself is who, after what processes, can one now say thatis a statement of fact that he has misled the House?AN HON MEMBER: Correct.
2272AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!THE SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. In fact I am so concerned that there is a point of order and a point of order, a point of order and a point of order. But for the sake of continuity, I willallow hon member Mr Keys and hon member Mrs Cronje. Those will be the last. Thank you.MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Just as a point of clarity, the hon member said I made allegations about an armoured vehicle. I had posed a parliamentary question to the Minister. I think thereis a difference between making allegations and posing a parliamentary question.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Cronje?MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, I would very much like to know on which Rule the hon Mr Ngidi rose. You allowed him to make a speech and he did not rise on a Rule.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Malakoana, I hope that you have heard ...MR H L COMBRINCK: (Deputy Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, I am standing on a point of order. The Chief Whip of the ANC said Mr Ngidi stood up and made a speech.MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Yes.MR H L COMBRINCK: (Deputy Chief Whip): Under which Rule was that? The same goes for the Minister. He also made a speech. [LAUGHTER] So what is good for the one is good forthe other.THE SPEAKER: Thank you, colleagues. Hon member Mr Malakoana, there is a request that you withdraw your statement.MR M S MALAKOANA: Mr Speaker, let me start by saying that if the hon Minister will give the assurance to the House that he has never made any attempt to acquire such a type of a vehicle,then this side of the House - get me well, listen to what I am saying ...HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Mr Malakoana, please withdraw your statement.MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): Point of order. The question has been raised in this House before by Mr Keys and it was replied to. In that reply we also pointed out that it wasmalicious rumours. What was the source of those rumours in the first instance? But it was replied to. Then Mr Malakoana makes it worse by then making these allegations. It must bewithdrawn.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Malakoana, will you withdraw the statement please?HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE SPEAKER: Mr Malakoana, please.MR M S MALAKOANA: Mr Speaker?
2273THE SPEAKER: Are you prepared to do so?MR M S MALAKOANA: It is the basis on which it is said I must withdraw that I cannot understand, because I said there was a rumour that the Department had bought this vehicle. Is that thecase, I asked in my speech. So the hon Minister will have an opportunity. I asked whether it is true or not?HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.MR M S MALAKOANA: It is a question I posed in my speech. If it is not true, the hon Minister will say it is not, because I did not say ...MRS B SCOTT: It is contempt.THE SPEAKER: The Minister has said quite clearly that the Department has not bought that armoured vehicle. Hon member Malakoana. uMhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe enkulumeni yakhe uthelokhu kuliphutha ukuthi kuthengwe i-armoured vehicle. [The hon Minister in his speech said it is not true that an armoured vehicle has been purchased].MR M S MALAKOANA: Mr Speaker, let me clarify myself. Ukuthi kuzwakala kuthiwa akukho la ngithi uNgqongqoshe noMnyango uthenge imoto manje angazi noma ngishintshe ngikhipheukuthi kuzwakala ukuthi noma ngishintshe kuphi. [That it is alleged - there is nowhere where I say the Minister and the Department have purchased a motor vehicle, and I do not quiteunderstand what I have to withdraw or change].MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Point of order, Mr Speaker.THE SPEAKER: Hon member?MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, you have made a ruling and I believe a correct ruling. I am rising on Rule 39. The Rule says:a Member commits contempt if he or she contravenes a provision of these Rules, or disregards a ruling of a Presiding Officer.You have made your ruling. It is being disregarded. It is being argued.MRS B SCOTT: Yes, it is contempt.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): The hon Mr Malakoana is in contempt of this House because he is disregarding a ruling by the Speaker.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Inkosi Gumede.INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Chief Whip): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I hope that the Speaker will be aware that he has already made two rulings.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Chief Whip): The first one said you were going to investigate the matter and report. Then the second one said Mr Malakoana must withdraw. Which is which? Which
uling is to be followed here. Because in the first ruling you said you were going to investigate the matter and make a ruling.2274THE SPEAKER: Okay, colleagues, since we are in a dilemma, may I request that, one, since that there is a misunderstanding angazi uMalakoana akusho ngqo, ngqo, ngqo. [Mr Malakoananever said it directly]. So as a result of that may I request this House ...MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): Mr Speaker.THE SPEAKER: Order, hon Minister! Order, hon Minister!MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): Mr Speaker.THE SPEAKER: Let me finish my statement.MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): Mr Speaker.THE SPEAKER: Let me finish my side please. Order! Order! Since there is such a problem I will request that I investigate, get the whole record and I make my ruling accordingly.MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): Mr Speaker, I am on a point of order. Mr Malakoana says that I am giving on one side and taking on another. While you give this side, you thentake the money of the Department and buy an armoured vehicle for this MEC. That is what he is saying. I further illustrated to you that this is not the first time this malicious rumour hascirculated in this House. It was raised in the form of a question by Mr Keys and it was replied to very strongly, including the source of the rumour.There is no question of anything being investigated in that instance. Mr Malakoana is making this - and I hope it is not a party lie. He is making this malicious allegation. It cannot be difficultbecause members have on previous occasions been ordered out of this House for making malicious statements. There cannot be exceptions.THE SPEAKER: Hon Minister, again I am saying that we are faced with a problem - Mr Malakoana talks about the rumour and all those things. What I am trying to do here is to get the properrecord and make a proper ruling on the matter. Kusasa lokhu okusaya. [Definitely tomorrow]. Thank you. You proceed, hon member. There is a point of order again.MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): I am rising on a point of order. Mr Speaker, I am rising on a point of order. I thought the Speaker was clear when he requested the hon memberMr Malakoana, to withdraw his statement.We are very dissatisfied with the manner in which this matter is now being dealt with by the Speaker. We want to raise that as an official objection, the manner in which the Speaker is handlingthe matter is to us unsatisfactory and we actually feel he is biased.The Speaker made a ruling that Mr Malakoana needs to withdraw the statement and that has not been carried out. We are actually not happy with the Speaker's ruling, because it is clearly acalculated statement to maliciously damage the reputation of the Minister. And we cannot accept that.THE SPEAKER: Hon Minister, if that is the intention of the hon member Mr Malakoana, I am saying if he has deliberately misled the House, I will give that ruling tomorrow. That is proper.Because there is confusion. Awukwazi ukusuka la, ake ngichaze malungu ahloniphekileyo ayikho into elikhuni uma ungu-Chairperson. [You cannot move from here, let me explain honmembers, there is nothing as difficult as being the Chairperson]. The Chairperson will understand the position umuntu akuyona. If usesihlalweni uhleli ubhekwe ukuba wenze izintongokufanelekileyo. [one is in. If you are in power you are always expected to do things accordingly]. So now I am saying on the basis that there is confusion. It can be done by me or whoever.MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): On a point of order.
2275THE SPEAKER: On this matter I have made a ruling.MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): Hon Mr Cele was ordered out of this house ...THE SPEAKER: Hon Minister, could you take your seat, hon Minister?MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): Mr Bheki Cele was ordered out because he said babalekile on that, ngeke. [they have fled on that, never].THE SPEAKER: Hon Minister, please take your seat.MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): No, we do not accept this ruling.THE SPEAKER: Hon Minister, take your seat please. Hon member Mrs Mohlaka.MRS B S MOHLAKA: Mr Speaker.THE SPEAKER: Mrs Mohlaka, take your seat please. Thank you. Hon member Mr Malakoana, please finish your debate. Thank you.MR M S MALAKOANA: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Yesterday I tabled a report of the portfolio committee for ...HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): Mr Speaker, there is absolutely no way, there is no way, Mr Speaker, we can listen to Mr Malakoana who said that I stole departmental money.There is no way we can continue. There cannot be Rules for the IFP and Rules for the ANC. Mr Bheki Cele was ordered out because he said to the Minister there babalekile [they have fled]and as a result of that he was ordered out of the House by you, Mr Speaker. And now when the Chief Whip tells you what ...HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): No, no, no, there is absolutely no way.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE SPEAKER: Order, please! Order for the last time! Order for the last time! Order! Order! I will request that this House adjourns for 10 minutes. Thank you. And thereafter the ChiefWhips are to see me. Chief Whips to see me immediately.THE HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 15:17RESUMED AT 18:19THE SPEAKER: Ngifuna ukuyichaza ngesiZulu khona nizoyizwa kahle. Amalungu angasizwa Isizulu ngizocela afake lokhu kwasemadlebeni. Malungu ahloniphekileyo angisho ukuthiokokuqala sixolise ukuthi sithathe isikhathi eside esikhathini akade sisicelile. Kuyacaca ukuthi udaba akusilo udaba olulula ngalendlela engase ibonakale. Ngakho-ke ngifisa ukubongakubobonke abantu abasilekelelile kuloludaba ikakhulukazi ama-Chief Whips of parties.
2276TRANSLATION: I want to explain it in IsiZulu for you to understand it well. The members who do not understand IsiZulu could please use headphones. Hon members let me start off byapologising for having taken more time than we asked for. It is quite obvious that this is not a light matter as one would have expected. Therefore I wish to thank everybody involved in thismatter, particularly the Chief Whips of parties. T/EChief Whips of parties, Chief Whip of the ANC, Chief Whip of the IFP, and the Chief Whip of the DA, the staff and mostly fanele ngibonge uMhlonishwa. Minister Singh and Minister Mkhize,and also ngibonge ikakhulukazi. [and I must thank the hon Minister. Minister Singh and Minister Mkhize, and also especially] the leaders of political parties in this Province. Ngoba sesize safikala sivumelana khona ukuthi we cannot resolve this matter today. [Because we have found no common ground] we are not in a position to resolve it today. So therefore sibona ukuthi kungconolokudaba siluguqise neNdlu iguqe. [we think it is better to adjourn this matter and the House should also adjourn]. This debate is concluded and also the House adjourns. It will give us time tolook into the matter further. Then tomorrow we will resume with our debate.I have been told that the following debates will no longer take place today, that is the debate on the motion by the NNP and also the request by the DA. So the time will be allocated by the ChiefWhips in the next sitting or tomorrow.Njengoba ngichaza nje ngibona ukuthi lesosimo esesivumelene ngaso. Ilesosimo futhi esingasilandela sokuthi iNdlu iguqe iguqele ikusasa. Kodwa before ngenze lokho ngizocela ukuthimhlawumbe i-NNP kubekhona ekushoyo in respect of their motion. Noma ngitsheliwe kodwa ngikuzwe formally from the NNP. Likewise, the DA ngizwe nayo formally in the <strong>Legislature</strong>.TRANSLATION: As I am explaining I think we should adopt the resolution we have agreed upon that the House be adjourned until tomorrow. But before I do that I am going to ask the NNP toperhaps say something in respect of their motion although I have been told, but I should hear formally from the NNP. Likewise, the DA should also be given the audience formally in the<strong>Legislature</strong>. T/EWhat I am saying, hon member Mr Edwards, is that I have been informed by the Chief Whips that the debate that was supposed to have taken place today in respect of the NNP motion will nolonger be debated today. So I think it is proper that I hear from the NNP whether that is in order and also from the DA in respect of their request. May I allow therefore the NNP, honMr Edwards?MR B V EDWARDS: Mr Speaker, I do refer to Rule 138(1), but I must say I feel aggrieved that we have to be asked to withdraw the motion. There is the alternative that it will be debatedtomorrow but we have discussed this amongst parties and some considerable time has gone in by everyone preparing. But I think in terms of Rule 138(1) we can withdraw this to be debated atanother session, because I do not think there will be enough time to debate it in this session. So we can put it on the Order Paper again during this week. So, with reluctance, under 138(1) theNNP withdraws the motion that is on the order paper. Thank you, Mr Speaker.THE SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member Mr Edwards. I think that the Chief Whips have heard the concerns raised by Mr Edwards. I do not know whether they would like to respond now ordeal with the matter later?MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, when it is withdrawn formally in terms of Rule 138(1), my understanding is that it now disappears altogether off the Order Paper. I think itwould be better if the NNP simply requests that it stands down until rescheduled. Then we can either do it now or on the next sitting. But then it remains there as a motion that has been givennotice of. That is how I would see it, that they simply request that it stands down.THE SPEAKER: Mr Edwards?MR B V EDWARDS: Just on a point of order again, Mr Speaker. Yes, I think we would prefer that. You did mention that you thought that we should withdraw it from this sitting, but I wouldrather it stood down. The Whips can then discuss it. Then we could withdraw it from the order paper if necessary tomorrow or another day. Thank you, Mr Speaker.We would like it to remain on the Order Paper as it is at the moment then. Thank you.
2277THE SPEAKER: Thank you. Let me leave this matter for the Whips to deal with. Thank you. Hon member Mr Keys?MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Thank you, Mr Speaker, I agree that we can stand the motion of public importance down to be debated later in the week.THE SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. Then, colleagues, before we adjourn I think that I must request that tomorrow - members have received notices that we will have to start at nine inorder to meet with the Commissioner. So I will request that all members be present tomorrow at nine. There is a special board meeting that is supposed to take place immediately after theadjournment. I do not think it will take much of our time. We will have to have that special board meeting for members of the Executive Board.Hon member Mr Keys, do you want to say something?MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, in consultation with my colleagues, the Chief Whips in the <strong>Legislature</strong>, after lunch, if that is our understanding, the House will start at 15:00 insteadof 14:00 to allow for the Cabinet to be briefed by the Commissioner.THE SPEAKER: Yes, I am aware of that. I was about to announce it. I was requesting members that they must be here at nine for the Commissioner. Then the House will adjourn until 15:00tomorrow. We will start at 15:00 tomorrow.Before we adjourn may I ask of the Premier, if he has anything to say before we close?THE PREMIER: Awu akukho Baba Somlomo engingakusho uma kunje. [UHLEKO] [Awu, Mr Speaker there is nothing I can say as things stand]. [LAUGHTER]THE SPEAKER: Siyabonga kakhulu kuMhlonishwa uNdunankulu. [Thank you very much to the hon Premier]. Then the House adjourns till 15:00 tomorrow. House adjourns.HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 18:27 UNTIL15:00 ON WEDNESDAY, 25 JUNE 2003
2278DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OFKWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATUREFIFTH SESSIONFIFTH SITTING - THIRD SITTING DAYWEDNESDAY, 25 JUNE 2003THE HOUSE MET AT 11H06 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG. THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.THE SPEAKER:2. OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS3. ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION4. ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKERTHE SPEAKER: I have just received a letter from hon Mr Makhaye in terms of Rule 106(3) where he requests an opportunity to make an explanation before this House. I therefore grant himthat opportunity.MR D H MAKHAYE: (Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs): Mr Speaker, I rise on Rule 106(3). While noting that it is normal parliamentary procedure and part of ourParliamentary Rules that if a member of this House makes any unparliamentary statement in the House, any other member of the House can stand up on a point of order and call for thewithdrawal of that statement, and that the Speaker must rule on that point of order.Further noting that no member of the House stood on a point of order when I made a speech in this House on 28 November 2002, further noting that those forces that can only thrive on politicaltension can capitalise on some elements of that speech.Also noting that it is not our task to manufacture crises, nor to assist the manufacturers of crises, but to deliver to our people. I therefore unconditionally withdraw all references to Hitler andSatan made in the speech and apologise for the misunderstanding that may have been caused.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE SPEAKER: Thank you. We then move to item 5.5. ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIERTHE SPEAKER: Hon Premier?THE PREMIER: Ngivumele Somlomo, ngithi lehlile itshe emahlombe ngiyabonga. [Allow me Mr Speaker, to say I have been relieved of the burden, thank you].HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.
2279THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Thank you. We then move to item 6.6. TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS7. NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONSTHE SPEAKER: Hon Mr Volker?MR V A VOLKER: Mr Speaker, I would like to give notice of the following motion:Noting:that neither the IFP nor the ANC command an absolute majority on their own in this <strong>Legislature</strong>;that the need for effective and good government to be maintained in KZN requires that both should put the responsible interests of our Province ahead of the party political in-fightingthat has dogged our Province ever since the 1999 election.This House therefore:calls on the Provincial Leaders of both parties to act in the best interests of good government and good administration in this Province.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Gwala?MR M B GWALA: Mhlonishwa Somlomo, neNdlu yakho, ngokuhlala kwaleNdlu okulandelayo ngiyophakamisa kanje:leNdlu iyayibona inhlekelele yengozi elengela phezu kwemiphakathi yakithi edalwa ukuxhuxhuma kwezinhliziyo zalabo umhanehu (means appetite) yodumo ngezikhundlaabasebenzisa lawomathuba abanawo ukwakha izimpumpelana (odoli abagaxwe i-battery, lilliputian) zabo ukuqinisa amaxhama abo okuphatha.Iyakubona leNdlu:LeNdlu inquma:Ngiyophakasi kanjalo.ukwakhiwa kwamakomiti ngesishiqe emakhaya, iminyango kaHulumeni njengamakomiti ayizithangami zemizila akhiwa ngamaqeqebane athile, kungaboniswenenomphakathi kanye noHulumeni baseKhaya njengoba loluhlelo iyimbedle (into elokhu iphikile - rigmarole) edlumunyu emakhaya kodwa emadolobheni ungabona isolesibungu nxa ekhona.ukuxwayisa laba abayimisheshelengwana yalezinhlelo ukuba bagcine foco ukumbisa umphakathi iqanda lenjelana.TRANSLATION: Mr Speaker, I would like to give notice of the following motion:
2280This House:is aware of a crisis hanging over our communities, which is caused by those who believe in fame and position, who use any opportunity to create their own puppets, in order to ensurethat their authority to govern is entrenched.notes the creation of committees by force in rural areas by government departments in the form of forums, without consulting local government structures and rural communities; theseprogrammes are rife in rural areas yet are non-existent in towns; andresolves to caution those puppets of these programmes to desist from misleading communities. T/EAN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Bhamjee?MR Y S BHAMJEE: Mr Speaker, I give notice that at the next sitting day of the House I shall move the following motion:Noting:the DA has admitted that it displayed posters illegally in the Msunduzi Municipality, and this is tantamount to criminal action. The DA shifted the blame to a misunderstanding betweenitself and a municipal official. There is no excuse for the ignorance of the law of which the DA is one of the guardians. The hypocrisy is a message contained on the posters calling forenhanced law enforcement while at the same time such message is conveyed by illegal means.This House resolves:1. that the DA must accept full responsibility for its criminal action;2. shifting the blame on an innocent official is a blatant attempt by the DA to mislead the electorate and illustrates their lack of integrity and moral backup. Thank you.The Speaker ruled the above motion by Mr Y S Bhamjee, out of order in that it exceeded the maximum of 100 words as laid down by Rule 136(1) of the Standing Rules.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Keys?MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will move on the next sitting day of this House:This House noting:that the tabling of the Terrorism Bill with its vague and all-encompassing terminology that allows the widest possible interpretation; andthat this Bill, if enacted, could easily become a partisan tool in the hands of the governing party to crush organisations and individuals that legitimately oppose them.Resolves:
2281to call for the recall and redrafting of the Terrorism Bill and the resubmission of it in a form that both respects the Bill of Rights as enshrined in our Constitution, and effectively dealswith the real terrorist threat.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Thakur-Rajbansi?MRS S THAKUR-RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I hereby give notice that is shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:Noting:that there is grave discontent within various communities with respect to escalating crimes ranging from petty to violent; andthat crime knows no boundaries.This House resolves:to call on the hon MEC of Safety and Security, in consultation with National to urgently establish a policy on the number of police stations, mobile or satellite police stations as perpopulations per area in KZN, especially previously disadvantaged areas, followed by a proper programme of action. Thank you.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Gasa?MRS F X GASA: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move as follows:This House:expresses its support for the Premier, the widow and family of his son, Alexander, whose murderers have been convicted and sentenced;understands the special sense of satisfaction by the Premier, the widow and children that the thoroughness of the investigation by the Violent and Serious Crimes UnitDirector Booysen stood the test of excellence in the longest ever recorded bail application which the accused lost, and a conviction was obtained against the chief conspirator, EssauMadonsela who received a life sentence plus 18 years; andconvictions were obtained against two accomplices, each getting 20 years plus 18 years for attempted murder of Alexander's brother-in-law.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Prof Ndabandaba?PROF L B G NDABANDABA: I give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I shall move as follows:This House:? notes with concern the findings of the research conducted by the school of Psychology of the University of <strong>Natal</strong> indicating that two thirds of high school boys admitted tosexually abusing girls under 18 years;? that 17% of them have gone as far as rape and that sexual aggression of their female counterparts has become a norm;
2282? Call on all relevant departments to jointly develop anti-rape programmes which will promote moral regeneration among the youth.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Christians?MR A CHRISTIANS: Mr Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of this House:This House notes:the Trade and Industry Minister Mr Alec Erwin's claim last week that disagreement at the World Trade Organisation stood in the way of South Africa producing cheap anti-AIDS drugs;that both the agreement on the Trade-related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (Trips) and the Patents Act gives South Africa the capacity to produce generic drugs for its ownuse and for export.Calls on the government to:1. stop delaying implementation with red herrings and get on with the job of saving lives;2. take on the challenge to implement a National Treatment Programme.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Rajbansi?MR A RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this House as follows:This House notes:that the Province of <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> is proud of the composite nature of the Province's cultural society.Resolves:to respect the Provincial Government;to ensure that in all cultural promotions the minority groups such as Indians and whites are properly represented; and furthermoreto ensure that funds allocated for the promotion of culture are allocated on a fair and equitable basis.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Bekker?MR H BEKKER: Mr Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I will table the following motion:This House calls:
2283on the Premier to appoint a Judicial Commission of Inquiry to fully investigate the affairs which have taken place in the Department of Housing which led to the acquisition of the FourSeasons Hotel and the Palm Beach Hotel and other properties by the Province at highly inflated prices and payment by the Province of extortionate selling commissions. TheCommission must be tasked with establishing all the facts of this case and also be tasked with investigating the financial affairs of the former, now suspended, HOD N Khoza. That theCommission be specifically tasked with investigating the political responsibility and liability of the former Minister.The House notes:this fraudulent deal is estimated to exceed R34 million.The Speaker ruled the above motion by Mr H Bekker, out of order in that it exceeded the maximum of 100 words as laid down by Rule 136(1) of the Standing Rules.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Dr Radebe?DR B M RADEBE: Somlomo, ekuhlaleni kwaleNdlu okulandelayo ngiyophakamisa lokhu:ukubongela uMnyango weZokuthutha ngokulandela uhlelo lokusebenzisana nomphakathi, nokwakha izigcawu la abantu bakithi bekwazi ukusho khona izidingo zabo,okunezinhlelo njengama-Transport Forums la kukhona khona Amakhosi ahloniphekile, Izinduna, othisha, abesifazane, abasha, sithi; Halala Mnyango weZokuthutha!NaMakhansela abambe iqhaza.sicele labo abalwisana naloluhlelo kungaba Amakhosi, Izinduna, amalungu ePhalamende ukuthi abayeke ukuvimbela intuthuko eza kubantu bakithi sithi; Halala MnyangoweZokuthutha Halala!TRANSLATION: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I shall move as follows:This House:congratulates the Transport Department on their Transport Forum programmes that are run in conjunction with communities.We thank traditional leaders, izinduna, councillors and communities that are playing a role in these programmes.We say: "Forward to the Transport Department, forward"! T/EHON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Ambler-Moore?MRS M AMBLER-MOORE: Thank you, Mr Speaker.This House:notes that the hon Makhaye in an article in the Sowetan on 24 June 2003 assured the reading public that the government is going to increase the number of police in the SAPS;
congratulates the ANC Government for responding to the DA call for 150 000 police and we look forward to seeing them on our streets; and2284The DA further apologises to the hon Bhamjee for lack of permission to hang our posters, and the DA leadership will ensure that this does not happen again. Thank you.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Aulsebrook?MR J F AULSEBROOK: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I shall move as follows:Given that the Government of this Province is functioning efficiently and our Executive members are extremely busy in experiencing huge time constraints in carrying out their dutiesacross the length and breadth of our Province,This House resolves:to acknowledge the merits of and the dire need for us to operate our Provincial Air Service, which has proved to be an efficient means of transport. This includes a helicopter, jet andaircraft.Further resolves:to condemn the negative attitude of certain members and calls on those members to refrain from making unwarranted, mysterious attacks in this House on the Provincial Air Servicewhich is used by all the Ministers in this House.The Speaker ruled the above motion by Mr J F Aulsebrook, out of order in that it exceeded the maximum of 100 words as laid down by Rule 136(1) of the Standing Rules.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Miss Shabalala?MISS L F SHABALALA: Baba Somlomo, ngokuhlala kweNdlu okulandelayo ngiyophakamisa kanje:leNdlu iyaqaphela ukushintsha kwamabala kwe-DA, zolo lokhu ibikhankasa ngokuthi kunobugebengu ezweni lethu lase-South Africa. Njengamanje inezingqwembe zokuthiakungezwe amaphoyisa ngenxa yobugebengu. Iculo nomsindo obekubangwa i-DA ngezinxushunxushu zaseZimbabwe kodwa ifuna lelizwe lase-South Africa libenezinxushunxushu.LeNdlu inquma kanje:i-DA ayiyeke ukubanga umsindo ngomthetho ozovimba ubuphekula kulelizwe ngoba nje izwelana ne-Boeremag, futhi izwelana ne-Boeremag ngoba kuyiyona elwisananoHulumeni wentando yeningi. Ngiyabonga.TRANSLATION: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I shall move as follows:That this House:notes the changing of colours by the DA, yesterday they were campaigning for the uprooting of criminality with placards demanding an increase of the police personnel; and
a noisy refrain from the DA over the problems in Zimbabwe, yet they want those problems to be transplanted in this country.Resolves:2285that the DA should desist from opposing the Terrorism Legislation aimed to curb it. They are merely doing this because they are against the rule of a black democratic government.T/EHON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Kubheka?MR M A KUBHEKA: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I hereby give notice that I will move on the next sitting day of this House as follows:This House:notes with regret the contents of the minutes from the DA's meetings regarding their relationship with the IFP; andthat these minutes expose the DA's intention to use the IFP in its attempts to delay and frustrate the transformation of our country into a truly non-racial, non-sexist democracy, hencedelaying the process of improving the socio-economic conditions of the majority of South Africans.Resolves to remind the IFP leadership of its history with apartheid machinery and encourage their membership to never again allow themselves to be used once more as a traditionalweapon at the hands of right wing forces.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE SPEAKER: Prof Khubisa?PROF M N KHUBISA: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I shall move as follows:Noting the fact that the matter around school safety and security is the one that necessarily demands the intervention of various stakeholders and roleplayers.This House resolves:to call upon all affected parties, partners, stakeholders and roleplayers to desist from any form of mudslinging and finger pointing, but must jointly and collaboratively work with andassist the hon Minister Narend Singh in his bid to investigate and research the root causes of this problem; andcalls upon all the citizens of <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> to work with the Department of Education and Culture to root out evil from our schools.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE SPEAKER: I think that we have exhausted our time. The last one. Hon member Mr Ngcobo?
2286MR P NGCOBO: Thank you, Mr Speaker.Noting:1. that Jurgen Harksen is a convicted fraudster and a money launderer;2. The Desai Commission reported:? There is no dispute that the DA MEC Markowitz initiated contact with Harksen to solicit donations for his party;? on the balance of probabilities DA Premier, Gerald Morkel, was aware that DM99 000 deposited into the DA account was from Harksen; and? there was no "Hans" and the DA donor was in fact Harksen.3. Throughout this scandal Tony Leon refused to suspend Morkel or Markowitz from senior public office.Resolves:to remind the DA that "he who lives in a glass house should not throw stones" and come clean with their corruption in the Western Cape. I thank you.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE SPEAKER: Okay, colleagues, we are through with the motions. We move to item 8.8. ORDERS OF THE DAY8.1 QUESTIONSQUESTIONS AND ANSWERS WILL APPEAR IN A SEPARATE VOLUMETHE SPEAKER: Thank you. We are through with the questions.THE SPEAKER: Then we move to item 8.2.8.2 RESUMED DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT IN TERMS OF RULE 10(4)THE SPEAKER: Before we start the debate, members will recall that yesterday we were forced to adjourn the House in order to allow the Speaker to make some investigation and come upwith a ruling:Yesterday, 24 June 2003, the hon Minister of Transport raised a point of order under Rule 97(2), following the hon member Mr Malakoana's allegation that there are somehow confirmedrumours of the Department purchasing an armoured vehicle for the hon Minister. The Minister indicated that he had already answered a question from the hon Mr Keys indicating that no suchvehicle had been bought.I then obtained the question paper for the day (9 April 2003) together with the answer from the Minister. I satisfied myself that the Minister had given the answer to the allegation raised by hon
2287Mr Malakoana.A second step I took was to get a video tape of the proceedings for the day, to see whether hon Mr Malakoana was present and could therefore be presumed to have heard the reply of theMinister. The tape shows that the hon Mr Malakoana was present when the House started. The question asked of the hon Minister (No 40) was the last question and the tape shows that whenthe Speaker's procession left the Chamber, the hon Mr Malakoana was present. This proves that on a balance of probabilities that he heard the reply to the hon Mr Keys' question and madethe allegation with that prior knowlege, thus deliberately misleading the House.I therefore ask the hon Mr Malakoana to withdraw the allegation he made yesterday.MR M S MALAKOANA: Mr Speaker, thank you. I raised the question in my debate for the purpose of getting an answer, whether it is true or not. At no stage did I say the vehicle had beenbought. To say there are rumours, I still maintain that. Thank you.THE SPEAKER: I request the hon member to withdraw the allegation or the statement as I have indicated. Hon member, Mr Malakoana. I am waiting for the hon member Mr Malakoana towithdraw the statement, withdraw that allegation.MR M S MALAKOANA: Mr Speaker, I said it is a rumour. It is a question that I raised. I cannot withdraw it.THE SPEAKER: I request the hon member to withdraw the allegation he made. This is the last time, hon member. I request you to withdraw the allegation you made, please.MR M S MALAKOANA: Mr Speaker, again, I said it is a rumour and what informs the allegation. I stand by that.MR V A VOLKER: Mr Speaker, on a point of order.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Volker?MR V A VOLKER: On a point of order and based on my long years of parliamentary tradition, I rise to ask you to ask the member to leave the Chamber.THE SPEAKER: This is the last request, hon member Mr Malakoana. Please withdraw the allegation you made yesterday.MR M S MALAKOANA: Mr Speaker, I have stated my position, thank you.THE SPEAKER: I therefore request the hon member to leave the House and I will request the member to submit a formal withdrawal of the statement before you come back to the House.Thank you.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!MR E S MBATHA: On a point of order.THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Mbatha, what Rule are you rising on?MR E S MBATHA: Ilungu elihloniphekileyo u-Mr Mchunu lapha ngaphesheya lithi aliphume lolucecevane, angazi noma kuwulimi okufanele lusetshenziswe ePhalamende. [The hon memberMr Mchunu across there says - this thin wiry person must go out. I wonder whether this is language acceptable in Parliament]?
2288HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE SPEAKER: Order! Order, please colleagues. Order! Ngicela ukuzwa litheni ilungu elihloniphekileyo Mbatha. [I would like to hear what the hon member said. Mr Mbatha]?MR E S MBATHA: Uthena aliphume lolucecevane, ngibuza uSomlomo ukuthi yilo ulimi olufuneke lukhulunywe lapha eNdlini yesiShayamthetho. [He said this thin wiry person must go out. Iam asking Mr Speaker, if that is the language to be spoken in this <strong>Legislature</strong>]?THE SPEAKER: Ngabe ilungu elihloniphekileyo uMchunu likushilo lokho? [Has the hon member Mr Mchunu said that]?MR E S MCHUNU: Mr Speaker, I never said such words.THE SPEAKER: I will investigate the matter and I will come back to the hon member. Hon Minister Inkosi Ngubane?INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and Security): Bengingawubeka umbuzo kuSomlomo? [Can I put a question to the Speaker]?THE SPEAKER: Angizwa Mhlonishwa. [I beg your pardon sir]?INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and Security): Ngicela ukubuza kuSomlomo ukuthi ngingabuza yini kuyena. [I would like toknow from the Speaker if I can pose a question]?THE SPEAKER: Ngihlushwa yinto eyodwa Mhlonishwa ukuthi ama-Rules awakubeki lokho kodwa mhlawumbe for the sake yokuthi Indlu yami ibenokuthula ngingalalela ngizwe ukuthiuMhlonishwa ubuza ukuthini. [My only concern sir, is that the Rules do not have a provision for that, but perhaps for the sake of having harmony in my House, I may give you an audience andhear what you have to say].INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and Security): Ngiyathokoza Somlomo. USomlomo uthe ilungu elihloniphekile u-Mr Malakoanangoba uhlulekile ukuxolisa wamjezisa ngokuthi akaphume. Kuyaqala lokhu kuSomlomo ukuthi uma ilungu kuthiwe aliphume mzukwane libuya aloqale lixolise ngoba semaningi amalungu laakhishwa kanjalo liyalibe selijezisiwe ngalokho, kodwa akushiwo ukuthi mzukwana libuya aloxolisa. Yikho kade ngibuza umbuzo kuSomlomo ukuthi ngingabuza yini kuSomlomo.TRANSLATION: Thank you Mr Speaker. The Speaker punished the hon member Mr Malakoana by ordering him to leave the House for failing to tender an apology. It is the first time MrSpeaker, that a member on his return, after having been asked to leave, is told to apologise. Quite a number of members have been told to leave under the same circumstances and not askedto apologise on their return, and that is punishment enough. Hence I asked the Speaker if I can put a question to the Speaker. T/ETHE SPEAKER: Nami angizibeke esimeni sokuthi ngingabuye ngimphendule uMhlonishwa emva kwalokho. Uma ufunda ama-Rules lapha kusukela ku-30 kuya ku-34 uzobona athinimayelana ne-withdrawal. [Let me also put myself in a situation where I can respond to the hon Minister afterwards. If you read the Rules from 30 to 34 you will see what they say aboutwithdrawal].If these points of order are being raised pertaining to the ruling, I will request that members stop doing that. Thank you. As long as members are rising on the point of order in respect of myruling, if that is the case, I will not allow anybody to do that.MR J SLABBERT: It is not exactly that, Mr Speaker.
2289THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Slabbert?MR J SLABBERT: I just want to say, Mr Speaker, you are a good and a very patient man. Mr Malakoana is very very lucky that you gave him so many chances to withdraw, which he did notdo.THE SPEAKER: Thank you. Then I will request the hon Minister to conclude the debate. You have ten minutes to do so. Hon Minister?MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I wish to thank the members for their participation in the debate, and I will just perhaps respond to Mr Combrinck. I dobelieve that he made the remark in good faith. He is an honourable member. What was unfortunate was for him to say that if you see a speed trap or you see a road block it is for the glory ofthe MEC. I think that was unfortunate.The hon member, if he visits any game reserve, whether it is the Kruger National Park or any other one, you will find the Road Traffic Inspectorate there. There is a speed limit that protects boththe people and the animals. If they say 40 kilometres, they mean 40 kilometres. If you are travelling beyond that you might very well know the behaviour of other motorists or the behaviour ofhuman beings, but how do you know the behaviour of ubhejane [elephant] or the behaviour of impala? They have these very strict rules there precisely to protect that. It is not to the glory ofthis MEC, and indeed this MEC did not know there was a game auction at all, let alone that speed traps were being set up there. I am not consulted about where and when there are going tobe speed traps.I believe that all of us need to take as a very solemn partnership, that road safety is not the responsibility of any one person or any one department or even this whole House. It is a partnershipfor all of us to embark on. We are hopeful that the initiatives that we are starting that focus on the youth and other sectors of our society are going to bear fruit. It is a neglected sector of oursociety and we need to ensure that the youth grow up in a much more tolerant atmosphere, in an atmosphere that respects our democracy and that it also applies on the road.I thank you very much.AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!THE SPEAKER: Thank you. Then we will move to item 8.3. To start the debate I will call upon the hon Minister. Thank you.8.3 REPORT: THE MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY IN TERMS OF RULE 10(2)INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and Security): Thank you, Mr Speaker and the hon House. I submit to you for tabling in the<strong>Legislature</strong> a report on a subject that is of grave concern to me and should be to all parents, teachers and those who hold dear the interests of our youth and their future.I had never envisaged that in my lifetime there would be a day when murder, rape and other criminality occurred in our schools, and would actually become a subject to be debated on in thisrespectable <strong>Legislature</strong>. A school is a place where our children go to learn and whilst they are in the school environment, they are expected to be safe. Sadly, this is not the case. The youthare increasingly becoming more involved in criminal activities and this is transferred to the school environment.The writer, W du Bois, once said:The chief problem in any community cursed with crime is not the punishment of the criminals, but the preventing of the youth from being turned to crime.These words ring true for South Africa today. Our country is completely weighed down by unacceptable levels of crime and this has been the case for quite some time. The fact is, a culture ofcontempt for the rule of law has crept into our lives over more than four decades, whilst in the past, crime was partly the civil responsibility of a system that used the police and the power of the
law to enforce injustice. The political reasons for holding such contempt have been largely removed. What is exposed now is the ugly fact of common crime.2290Our strategy must be clear and our efforts focused. As a priority, we must approach the youth and everything associated with the youth. It is not enough to educate the youth in the role andresponsibilities of individuals within a rights culture. We must also address their economic concerns as well, replacing the expectation of destitution with a real determination to succeed. Butsuch determination will only be borne by an economic and social policy that aggressively targets their talents for development.Parents are of course the first and most influential educators of children, priming them with the oral culture of their foregoers, shaping personality and moral development. The teaching processbetween parent and child is not a formal instructional exercise but rather a day-to-day exchange of cues, morality tales and opinions as to what is appropriate and what is not, for a member of aparticular family. From observation of their parents, children internalise notions about how a husband should treat his wife, what the place of the child is in the family setting, how to respond tocrisis and the many other complex lessons of human interaction.South Africans will thus have to start within the family circle with the rebuilding of respect for authority and by extension, National Law. Equally important is that the family must support thedevelopment of the child's opinions in line with the reality of the new South Africa. Of course, the family reflects and relates to economic, governmental, educational and religious institutions.For these reasons, many of the causes of juvenile delinquency and a later life of crime can be located in the youth's environment and social relationships. Social disorganisation, which is abreakdown in conventional institutional controls within a community, is an important contributory factor of criminal activity. Many theorists have noted that youth, who live in highly disruptedenvironments with few stabilising or normalising influences, are likely to develop a corresponding attitude towards their social interactions that in turn reflect a disregard for social norms.Schools can be regarded as the primary site of peer cultural development that, of course, is also directly linked to the youth's social behaviour when criminal activity is school-related. It may bethe result of socialisation difficulties experienced there by some children. Those from disadvantaged backgrounds may come to school without the mastery of the basic skills needed to succeedand perhaps even lack the necessary clothing and food. The inability of schools to provide these resources and insensitivity of teachers to the backgrounds and problems of such children arealso destructive to the child's progress at school. Drug and alcohol abuse has also been identified as contributing to school misbehaviour and criminal activity.Schools must therefore be called upon to meet and deal with many problems in children's lives that are not directly linked to teaching the prescribed subject matter. More emphasis will have tobe placed on the development of codes of conduct, drug abuse education and social and psychological services and perhaps even courses on the working of the criminal justice system.This is where parents, together with interest groups from the local community itself, may play a great role. Community policing has empowered the community to play an active role in its ownneighbourhood safety and security. This not only includes the possibility of the community defining what type of policing it wants but also allows for the development of a co-operative interactionwith agencies such as schools and youth organisations.Ultimately, we require to close the loop, thereby ensuring the involvement of all people who mould a child's perception of self and society.As mentioned, school crimes are generated by a complex range of socio-economic and environmental factors. To address these factors we need a range of skills and resources that no singledepartment or organisation alone has enough of to make our schools acceptably safer. It is with this recognition that the <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Department for Safety and Security and Education andCulture held an inter-ministerial summit in Durban on 23 June 2003, together with Provincial Government departments and non-government stakeholders to assess the situation. Based on arapid appraisal of the school safety situation, a process through which a plan is to be developed to improve the delivery of services required to increase school safety has commenced.What the appraisal makes clear in the challenges set out, is that school safety is not the concern of the Department of Education and Culture alone. Securing our schools is a complexchallenge that requires the participation of all government departments, local government, civil society organisations and communities alike. Both the Departments for Safety and Security andEducation and Culture are committed to jointly leading this partnership to develop and implement a Provincial School Safety Plan to reduce levels of crime at schools, and in so doing create anenvironment conducive to learning.Though not intended to be exhaustive, the purpose of this appraisal is to begin the development of a coherent school safety picture. This picture, required to inform the development of effective
2291crime prevention measures at school level, is obscured by a lack of accurate school crime information.As a first step the appraisal examined the causes of crime at schools as well as the institutional challenges that have impeded the improvement of school safety over the past few years, despitevarious attempts to do so.School Crime and Anti-Crime Generating FactorsSchool safety was assessed in terms of the range of risk factors that generate school crime and protective factors that protect schools and the individuals in them from crime. Salient factorsidentified, tabulated below, have been used to inform the actions set out towards a Provincial School Safety Plan.Table Summarising Salient Crime and Anti-crime Generating FactorsI think the hon members can refer to the following table.**The following table was inserted by Hansard from the Minister's written speech.Risk FactorsCommunity risk factors? Access to firearmsProtective Factors? Discipline, Safety and securitysponding to discipline, safety and security? Access to drugs andalcohol? Culture of violence in thecommunity? High level of communitycomplicity in crime? Breakdown of communitystructures? Poverty? Lack of positive rolemodels? Community and parental? Local government support for? Programmes targeting risk? Psychological services tobehaviour.? Appropriate curriculum, whichPeer risk factors ? Good norms and values.
2292Risk FactorsProtective Factors? Well kept and secured school.? Peer attitude that rewardsproblem behaviour? Drug and alcohol abuse? Sexist attitudesSchool risk factors? Inappropriate curriculum? Lack of commitment toschool? Bullying? Breakdown in discipline.DSSC not established? Lack of confidence in thepolice: underreporting ofschool-related crime? Declining educatornumbers due to AIDS andother factors? Unsecured schoolpremisesFamily risk factors? Family conflict.? Parents are not aware of,or do not know how to assisttheir children in dealing withthe crime challenges thatare being faced.? Stress due to increased
2293Risk Factorshousehold responsibilitiescaused by the presence ofAIDS related sickness anddeath in the family? Physical and sexual abuseat home and in thecommunityProtective FactorsIndividual risk factors? Early onset of problembehaviour? Learning problems? Adolescent risk takingWhat is clear from the appraisal is that there are multiple causes of crime requiring a diverse range of responses. Partnerships are clearly essential. What is envisaged is a two-prongedapproach that attacks the risk factors that generate anti-social behaviour and crime while supporting the protective factors that make schools and its community of learners, educators andadministrators less vulnerable to crime.While dealing with serious crime such as murder and rape, is a priority, an emphasis is also to be placed on early intervention processes to prevent learners involved in anti-social or minorcriminal behaviour from graduating to more serious crimes.Institutional ChallengesCognisance is taken of the reasons identified for the failure of past attempts at developing an effective Provincial School Safety Plan. A lack of organisation and provincial ownership werecommon reasons cited for the failure of otherwise well designed safety programmes. While these problems are to be resolved, the enormous size of the Department of Education shall remain akey service delivery challenge.
2294Table indicating the size of the Department**The following table was inserted by Hansard from the Minister's written speech.**AREANumber of schoolsNumber of learnersFIGURES5895 (plus 249 registered independent schools)2,7 millionNumber of staff employed 190 000Actioning a Provincial School Safety PlanThe appraisal conducted reveals that a diverse range of skills and resources are required to address the multiple socio-economic and environmental causes of crime encountered. It is clearthat no single department or organisation alone possesses the capacity to develop an effective School Safety Plan. A partnership composed of government departments, local government,academic institutions, school representative structures and non-government organisations is thus critical to building up the required capacity to make a positive and sustained provincial impact.Establishment of a Provincial School Safety CommitteeLed jointly by the Departments of Education and Safety and Security and composed of committed multi-sector stakeholders, it shall take on the following tasks:1. School Safety AuditDevelop a coherent school safety picture, through which crime prevention priority areas can be identified.2. Service Provider AuditThe audit shall compile a directory of available relevant crime prevention service providers and resources and an analysis of service and resource gaps. It shall also identify schoolsafety best practices of relevance to the Province. The use of a School Safety Hotline has been unsuccessful in <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> and yet is working in other provinces through privatepublicpartnerships. The audit shall investigate the value of resetting such a hotline.3. Establishment of a School Safety Monitoring SystemDistrict managers are to be capacitated to provide regular information on crime problems or emerging crime problems at schools. This information is to be linked with audit informationto inform the development of capacity-building and technical support programmes for schools.4. Programme Development and DeliveryThere are many excellent programmes of value to school crime prevention, being run by various departments and organisations. These need to be properly co-ordinated to ensureproper access to schools where they are required.
2295Where none exist, new programmes shall be developed by the Committee to address key crime prevention priorities. Programme development shall also stay in line with relevantLegislative and policy developments. For instance, those relating to the utilisation of diversion approaches, where applicable, to keep learners in conflict with the law out of the criminaljustice system.Theming, (departments and organisations working on joint Provincial Crime Prevention Themes), has been recommended as a way of developing the critical mass required to impactsuccessfully on schools throughout the Province. The Provincial School Safety Committee shall co-ordinate these provincial efforts.As a starting point, the delivery of capacity, technical support and programmes to school level is to be focused on the following two Department of Education services and theirDiscipline, Safety and Security Committees (DSSCs). Modifications shall be made where necessary to meet the central objective of effectively meeting the crime prevention needs ofschools.5. Psychological ServicesSituated at district level they provide counselling services to schools. Their work of detecting and treating learners with psychological and learning difficulties is critically important forcrime prevention.Support needs to be given to them to assist learners and educators to deal with trauma related to victimisation and behavioral problems that are criminal or anti-social.6. Curriculum DevelopmentThis is a provincially based part of the Department of Education's Support Services. The development of a relevant life skills curriculum that takes school safety into account needs tobe developed by this directorate.7. Discipline, Safety and Security Structures (DSSCs)Central to the Department of Education's school safety policy is the establishment of DSSCs at school level. DSSCs are currently being capacitated by the Department of Education'sLearner Affairs to address school discipline, safety and security issues. It is the intention of the Committee to support Learner Affairs in its continued work.DSSCs are structures in which school management, educators, learners, parents and interested community groups (for instance traditional authorities in rural areas) have anopportunity to participate. Programmes developed by the Committee working with Learner Affairs to address one or more crime trigger factors are to be implemented through thesestructures.8. Time Plan for the Development and Implementation of a Provincial School Safety PlanThe seriousness of the school crime situation necessitates the immediate actioning of our work towards a Provincial School Safety Plan.Work on the establishment of the Provincial School Safety Committee has already begun with its first meeting to be held before the end of July 2003. Audits are to be completed and aSchool Safety Monitoring System is expected to begin its collection and analysis work by the end of August.Schools with a high incidence of serious crime are to be selected first for targeted crime prevention programmes.
2296By the end of the academic year a Provincial School Safety Plan for 2004 is expected to be in place.Our two Departments are committed to meeting these objectives. The greater the commitment of other stakeholders, the more effective the Provincial School Safety Plan shallbecome.9. Ongoing Inter-Ministerial CommitmentAs Ministers of our respective Departments, our work does not end here. We are committed to leading this action process by actively leveraging the necessary government and nongovernmentalsupport to develop an effective Provincial School Safety Plan that shall tangibly make schools in our Province safer and more conducive to learning.Although the level of school crime is unacceptably high, there is reason for hope. This is to be found in the commitment of the vast majority of learners, educators and parents tocourageously take a stand against crime, and in the common understanding amongst stakeholders in government, civil society and business that success can only be achievedthrough working together in partnership.If this commitment is focused on the development of the Provincial School Safety Plan, we believe that it shall succeed.My Department is to provide expertise for the development of a School Safety Monitoring System, training and technical support for the application of a social crime preventionapproach to school crime reduction efforts.Mr Speaker, I have mentioned many times before, the police cannot fight crime alone and community participation is absolutely vital. The police cannot merely enter schools at random andconduct searches - and the youth are fully aware of this fact. However, when the police are requested by school authorities to enter school premises and conduct searches, they will do so,without hesitation. The police in this Province have undertaken their own crime prevention initiatives in schools and amongst the youth.1. Anti-Drug Programme - (PHANSI with drugs/alcohol abuse)This project was implemented in a multi-pronged approach with ?400 high schools participating. The aim was to create an awareness amongst the youth about the dangers andharmful consequences of drugs/alcohol and substance abuse as well as to prevent the use by and supply of drugs to the youth. This particular project involved the Departments ofEducation, Health and of Welfare and NGOs.2. Youth DeskThe Youth Desk has been involved in visiting ?5 000 schools in the Province. The focus of the Youth Desk is crime prevention that includes substance abuse.3. Captain Crime StopDuring the period 1 April 2002 to 1 April 2003, 500 schools in the Province were visited. The aim of this project was to educate children on crime related issues in a manner in whichthey can easily associate themselves with "Captain Crime Stop". It was also directed to create a partnership between the police and the public by launching crime stop services andhow these can be used in the fight against crime. The "Captain Crime Stop" project reached 30 000 children.4. YO-YO ProjectA total of 8 000 people were reached by way of awareness campaigns. Children between the ages of 6 and 12 years at various schools were handed yo-yos carrying the Crime Stop
2297number. The project was aimed at creating an interest in schools for children to report crime to Crime Stop.Mr Speaker, in conclusion, the safety of our children is a priority and crime in schools is a matter that affects each and every citizen in this Province. My appeal is - let us inform and educate ourchildren. Let us go back to the basics of teaching our children the difference between right and wrong. Let us once again engrain family and moral values in our children. Let us restore safetyand security for the future generation. I thank you.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much, Mr Minister. That concludes 8.3. In the meantime I have received a letter requesting that clarity be made in terms of Rule 106(3) on a matterthat is in the Minutes of 24 June 2003 under item 3.6 (Item No. 9.5 on the Order Paper of 25 June 2003). This request comes from the Minister of Health, Dr Mkhize. Because this matteraffects the minutes, I have decided that I will give him the opportunity to give that clarity.DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for that indulgence. I rise in terms of Rule 106(3) to deal with a matter arising from Item 3.6 in the Minutes of 24 June 2003,which is a motion by the hon member Mr Hamilton. I was absent when that notice of motion was raised, and on that basis I felt that I needed to object or raise a correction. The motion carries aphrase that goes as follows:...the actions of the National Minister of Health, Dr Manto Tshabalala-Msimang in refusing to sign the Global Fund agreement into force;I want to submit, Mr Speaker that this is factually incorrect. The first issue is that the signatory to this agreement will be the Deputy Finance Minister on behalf of the government as possibly theDeputy President. That is the first issue.The second issue is that there is no refusal on the matter, but what has happened is that the Global Trust Fund is actually seeking additional clarification on the details of the proposals, and theyare in communication with the departments on that particular issue.Thirdly, there is a question of PricewaterhouseCoopers who has been given the mandate to check the systems of Finance and Treasury from National right to the Province, at which point allthose issues will have to be taken into account in preparation for signature. I assume that the statement was made in good faith, otherwise it would have been misleading the House, thank you.8.4 MOTION: ANC AND IFP TO URGENTLY RESOLVE OUTSTANDING UNDERTAKINGSTHE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Minister. That then allows us to proceed to item 8.4 on the Order Paper, and that is the debate on the following motion moved by Mrs J M Downs of theACDP.Notingthat the ANC and the IFP have not abided by mutual undertakings;? the IFP have not given equal cabinet seats to the ANC;? the Speaker has not complied with resolutions of the Executive Board regarding the Auditor-General's report;? the ANC has not abided by agreements concerning traditional leadership;
2298? political leaders are required to be virtuous men of integrity, incorruptible and above reproach; and? that there are serious allegations against the Speaker.This House therefore requests that the IFP and ANC, in the best interests of the Province, urgently meet to discuss and resolve the outstanding undertakings.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: In terms of the Speaker's List here before me, to open the debate on this motion is Mrs J M Downs, and the hon lady has ten minutes.MRS J M DOWNS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to begin by just correcting the motion on the Order Paper, because on the Order Paper it says that the ANC and IFP have not abided bynatural undertakings. I think that could have a different meaning to the one I intended, and the word "natural" needs to be replaced with the word "mutual".That having been said, Mr Speaker, the motion that I put forward deals with the situation in the Province as we find it. I deliberately made it rather wide-ranging. I want to begin by saying thatneither the ANC nor the IFP have kept their promises. Nobody here can stand on moral high ground. The ANC at national level have ignored the constitutional imperative to formalise the roleand function of traditional leaders.In 1996, 20 000 Christians marched on Parliament because they were concerned that prayer will be removed from schools, amongst other things. Cyril Ramaphosa took a Bible in his hand,and he faithfully promised those people that the ANC had absolutely no intention to remove prayer from schools, and that the ACDP was rumour-mongering. He promised all of those Christiansthat it would never happen. Today, our hon Minister Mr Asmal from National Parliament is trying to do exactly that.In both cases those solemn promises have been broken. The ANC recently disclaimed the debate on Christian holidays. I listened to the debate on SABC SAFM Radio, and there weremembers of the ANC alliances present at that debate on the radio station, saying that Christian holidays should be removed from the calender.We had this argument at National Parliament, and I will leave it to my National Parliamentary colleagues to continue with that debate, but I wonder if in a few years time Christians will onceagain be wondering how the proposal that the ANC never put on the table, and was not fulfilled by the ANC came to be government policy.The IFP at provincial level have never fulfilled the promises that they made to the ANC either. The promise to pass the Provincial Constitution, to give the ANC two more equal Cabinet seats,was never fulfilled despite repeated requests to do so. This has been the position since 1999. It is disingenuous to tell the people of the Province that the ANC and IFP are equal in Cabinet atthe moment. They are not. We all know that the DA are in the IFP's pocket at this current time, and they have been silent.In all of this political football where the ANC and IFP are playing tit for tat between national and provincial levels the losers are the people of this Province. The people of <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> are theones that are losing. Both parties have been concerned about retaining their influence and position and so have not reacted when serious problems in the running of the <strong>Legislature</strong> werebrought to light.On 15 March 2002, nearly 18 months ago, the Auditor-General tabled a report on the management of the <strong>Legislature</strong> after investigations conducted at the <strong>Legislature</strong>'s request. Nearly a yearand a half later not one of the actions recommended in the resolutions of the Executive Board have been completed. This is a serious indictment on the Executive Board, the Speaker's Officeand the <strong>Legislature</strong> as a whole.I participated in the disciplinary hearing against the Secretary and Deputy Secretary who we suspended at the time, and have come to the conclusion that it is neither in the interests of the<strong>Legislature</strong> or the public to suppress the comments of the Auditor-General any longer. It is time that document was made public. The longer the report remains a secret, the moreuncomfortable I become, because I feel that I am being made to participate in a cover-up.
2299AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!MRS J M DOWNS: We must not keep it quiet any more. We have to admit that the <strong>Legislature</strong> has not been run correctly, and we have to make that document available to the public.It gives me no pleasure to inform the House of the problems that have been identified. I do not take pleasure in this. In fact, I am really sad about it. The Speaker himself has been implicatedin the possible back-dating of the Secretary and the Deputy Secretary's contracts of employment. It has been proved that the contract of the senior legal adviser at the time, who wasAdvocate Khoza, was definitely back-dated. The circumstances surrounding the date and time of the signing of the Secretary and Deputy Secretary's contract leads me to believe that exactlythe same conditions applied.I quote from the Auditor-General's Report:It is strange that the contract of employment required formalisation so urgently, that after the session during which he was elected, adjourned, the Speaker signed the contract ofemployment when Mzimela had already been employed for three years and eight months.This was done after action had been taken to suspend the Secretary and Deputy Secretary.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon member can you...MRS F X GASA: It is not when Mzimela, it is when Mr Mzimela. Yebo liqiniso lelo, angeke losisi avele agagule uMzimela engathi ukolobha kwakhe. Cha no, no. [That is true, this sistercannot just refer to Mzimela as if he scrubs floors at her house. No, no, no]! Be very consistent. We are talking about the ex-Secretary who should be correctly addressed. You cannot just sayMzimela. That is unacceptable.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can we allow the hon member to proceed, please?MRS J M DOWNS: Mr Speaker, for the record, I am quoting directly from the Auditor-General's report. They are not my words.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can you then allow me to give another hon member the opportunity to raise a point of order? Before Mr Ngidi does that, I am going to request that we againremember that we are supposed to be hon members and that we are supposed to be the ones who protect the dignity and decorum of this House. For us to create situations of disorder doesnot make us honourable. Therefore I will allow members, being members of Parliament and politicians, to heckle, but in an orderly manner. Please, Mr Ngidi, can you raise your point of order?Sorry, Mrs Downs.MR S B NGIDI: Thank you Mr Speaker, it is on a point of order. May I ask the Speaker whether he would like to make a ruling as to the sub judice situation with regard to this matter. Thesame ruling was made by the same Speaker when I alluded to the same matter, that I should refrain from talking about these matters because they were sub judice. I do not know whether theSpeaker would like to rule as to whether the matter of the Secretary as has been mentioned by the hon Downs, are these matters no longer sub judice. Thank you.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Ngidi, I will rule on the basis of a different approach, but not on the approach that you are suggesting. I will request Mrs Downs to remember that there is still adecision pending that we should not violate, and that is the decision of confidentiality of some of the elements of that report of the Auditor-General. My request is that can you please respectthat confidentiality and use whatever language that will ensure that we will not violate that confidentiality. That is the problem that I have. Thank you.MRS J M DOWNS: Mr Speaker, I am being very careful, and I am definitely not touching on the sub judice elements of the report of which I am very well aware, because I was one of the onlypeople that testified in the matter in actual fact, so I am very well aware of the sub judice issues. The matter of the back-dating of the contracts came up in an Executive Board meeting.
2300Mr Speaker, if I can continue. This also came up in the Executive Board, R29 900 was paid for a strategic claim which was never implemented or passed by the Executive Board in 2001.Policies and procedures did not exist or were deficient and the Finance Minister raised various issues. This was even the subject of a Public Accounts Committee meeting.The Finance Minister raised various issues that were not addressed by the previous Speaker, that is Speaker Mdhlalose, and have still not been addressed since 1998, before the last elections,and the concerns raised have still not been addressed, to this day. All of them concerned vehicles, staff accommodation and the parliamentary flats in Ulundi. All of which have resulted inlosses, fraud and theft. If that had been timeously attended to, we would not have had the losses, we would not have had the fraud and we would not have had the theft.HON MEMBERS: Yes!MRS J M DOWNS: The abuse of vehicles in this <strong>Legislature</strong> alone is staggering.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: There seems to be another concern that is going to be raised. May I hear what the hon member has to say?MRS L G NGCOBO: Mr Speaker, I am finding myself in deep water. This situation, this case...HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.MRS L G NGCOBO: This is a point of order.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member, it is a point of order but based on which Rule? The Rules say that when you rise, you rise on a point of order, and you point out the Rule onwhich you are rising.MRS L G NGCOBO: Rule 104.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Rule 104?MRS L G NGCOBO: I am not flustered by that jeering. Rule 104, sir.INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker?THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon Chief Whip, in the Rules it is clear that you cannot rise when another member is on the floor. Please Mrs Ngcobo can you assist me, what Rule are yourising on?MRS L G NGCOBO: I have said it is Rule 104.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Rule 104? Yes hon member?MRS L G NGCOBO: Sir, to my knowledge this matter is being dealt with legally by the CCMA and other processes, and it is a matter that I myself have wanted so badly to bring to the attentionof this hon House, because we are talking of people who have been on suspension for very, very long. For it to come in the side door, I find that wrong, and it is also breaking some of thetenets of our law. We are not supposed to discuss in this Chamber a matter...
2301AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.MRS L G NGCOBO: I have not interrupted you, Mrs Downs, I have not.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.MRS L G NGCOBO: No, it is a point of order. I am saying, Mr Speaker, we have no right to discuss this issue here. We have all been sworn to confidentiality, and for it to be debated in thismanner, when other people in the same report are here as innocent people, not charged, people who are not implicated in that report and it picks on the one that...HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.MRS L G NGCOBO: I am explaining my position. Please do not interfere.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.MRS L G NGCOBO: Yes nginguGogo wabantwana mntwanami angilesabi lelogama, angikwesabi lokho. [Yes, I am a grandmother of children my child. I am not scared of that word, I am notscared of that].HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I gave you an opportunity to rise on a point of order. I did not give you an opportunity to debate and exchange with members.MRS L G NGCOBO: INTERJECTION.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please, there is also one other matter. You do not have to interrupt the Speaker when he is speaking, it is not done. I do not know why you do it. I have requestedthat when we debate this matter, we must do so in an orderly manner, and we must avoid a situation of being disorderly, because that is not what this House should be about. Please, can thehon members conduct themselves properly, and please raise your points in terms of the Rule on which you have risen.MRS L G NGCOBO: I will apologise for having replied back, but I am not getting any protection from that seat. That is why I have to defend myself.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Are you now saying that you must debate?MRS L G NGCOBO: I am not debating, I just want to put my point across.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will ask you, hon member, to resume your seat if you do not stick to the point of order you raised.MRS L G NGCOBO: I will just now. Look, sir, I will not have...HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.MRS L G NGCOBO: Your protection, sir, please. I am not happy that we are discussing a matter that is actually in the hands of the law, and not in the hands of this House. The manner in
2302which it has been raised is not acceptable. Thank you, sir.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you. Hon member, Mrs Downs, there are two issues that are being raised. The first issue is that of referring to matters that are sub judice. Can you pleaseavoid that? Can you also please address the issue of confidentiality. Those two matters are very important. Please can we respect that? Proceed. You now have three and a half minutes.MRS J M DOWNS: Mr Speaker, that is very unfair. I have been very careful not to touch on sub judice issues, and I have been very careful not to violate the confidentiality of the Auditor-General's report. These are matters that were raised in the Executive Board in the Finance Committee.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is another member, the Chief Whip?INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, I rise on Rule 103 which says:A Member may not adversely reflect upon the competence or honour of an employee of Parliament, except upon a substantive motion in the House.There is no substantive motion in the House with this Mzimela case. There is nothing. The motion we are dealing with...THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Chief Whip, please, can we understand that we are debating a motion here?INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Chief Whip): Which motion?THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: We are debating a motion. These Rules do not state which motion it should be.INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Chief Whip): No.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: They do not specify, they do not say specifically.INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, the specific motion is that... We are debating a matter of an employee.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: We are not debating a matter of an employee.INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Chief Whip): INTERJECTION.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: We are debating this motion here. When we debate this motion, it is a substantive motion. If we are debating a substantive motion, there is nothing that preventsanybody from reflecting on any member or any staff of Parliament. It is a substantive motion. We have not said in these Rules that it must be a motion about the staff. We had not said that. Ifthat was the intention, we would have spelt it out in the Rules that a substantive motion is in relation to those staff. We would have said that, but we did not say that. Let us understand theintentions of the Rules, please.If you do have a problem Mr Chief Whip - I am going to allow that this motion be debated and that the hon member continue. If you do have a problem, we will deal with that problem outside,please. Please proceed, hon member, and do please remember these matters that have been raised.
2303MRS J M DOWNS: I am remembering, Mr Speaker, and let me just make the point. I am not debating about Mr Mzimela or his competence. I am debating about the Speaker and hiscompetence.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!MRS J M DOWNS: What I was saying is that staff accommodation, the <strong>Legislature</strong> flats and vehicles have all been abused in this <strong>Legislature</strong>. Mrs Scott raised in this House, two days ago thefact that the Speaker himself had 15 new tyres fitted to his vehicle over a 25 000 kilometre period, and that he had spent R50 000 on services in the same period. Now you tell me what that is.INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, as I allow this member you have had seven minutes. You have now utilised seven minutes. If this persists, I will always give you extra minutes.AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Chief Whip?INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Chief Whip): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I just want to note and observe that in fact as you have correctly ruled this matter in question emanated from aconfidential report. The member is quoting from a confidential report and it was stated that this should be respected. I cannot understand how a member can be allowed to proceed with adebate which is based on a very confidential report. I cannot understand that. The issues pertaining to the Speaker's car and tyres emanated from that confidential report. The matter dealingwith Mzimela is based on that very same report, a confidential report. Some members of this House do not have that report because of its confidentiality. If a member is now allowed to quotefrom and refer to that confidential report I cannot agree with that. Thank you.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Chief Whip, both myself and you have recourse to our Rules when there are problems of this nature. I have warned the hon member in front of you in the House,to not violate those confidentiality clauses. What you and I now have as recourse is a process whereby we prove that the hon member has violated that confidentiality, and that cannot be donenow and here. It can only be done after this meeting.We also have recourse to clauses in the Rules through which we can deal with an hon member who has violated some of the decisions. That is the route that we are going to follow, but we arenot going to stop the hon member. It is up to her to know that she is not to violate the Rules and the ruling of the Speaker. Please proceed, Mrs Downs.MRS J M DOWNS: Mr Speaker, in the matter of the vehicles I was quoting the hon Mrs Scott who debated this in the House not three days ago. In the matter of the vehicles, the hon DeputySpeaker also has a major problem in this regard. Both the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker have been involved in accidents which they were tasked by the Executive Board to report back on,because neither of them were on official duty at the time, and neither of them have done so.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member?MR S B NGIDI: I rise on a point of order, Mr Speaker. Rule 39. You have actually ruled that the speaker on the floor should not refer to those matters which are sub judice, and she iscontinually doing that, disregarding your own ruling.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Which Rule are you talking about?MR S B NGIDI: Rule 39. She continues to contravene and disregard your ruling as the Presiding Officer. You are allowing that to happen, Mr Speaker. You have ruled that she should notraise those things, and she continues to do just that.
2304THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Ngidi, I have made a ruling and the hon member has been warned. If she proceeds and continues to do so, we will then have sufficient time to look into therecord of what she has said, and to look at it in relation to the report and the Rules, and if she has contravened any Rules we will take action. That Rule does provide us with that ammunition. Ido not think we should have a problem now proceeding, based on my ruling that we will deal with the matter. The problem is that you are not going to be able to provide that report now to proveany of those matters. I do not think we should bring this House to a standstill simply because of a matter we can deal with outside of this meeting. The hon member has three minutes.MRS J M DOWNS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. As I was saying, again this was a matter that was brought before the Executive Board and was discussed by the Executive Board, and a resolutionof the Executive Board was that the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker must report to the Executive Board, which they have not done.In another matter that was raised in a Finance Sub-committee of the Executive Board, it was found there that excessive expenditure by the Speaker's Personal Assistant on S&T's and oncellphone abuse was tolerated and condoned continually despite orders from the Executive Board that cellphones were not to cost more than R300. These bills amounted at times to R3 000 amonth on average. S&T, for the assistant of the Speaker and the assistant's office, R5 000 a month. Come on, people. Let us move away from the abuses within the Speaker's office, and letus look at the conduct of the Speaker's office.During the floor crossing episode, the Speaker knew that by midnight he had to send lists to the Government Gazette. The Speaker absented himself, as usual, from his office on that day, and Ihappen to know that members of this House whose duty it was not to do this stuff had to do it on behalf of all of the parties. Now what if that hon member had decided to be sticky and onlydone it for their own party? Let me tell you that for one the DA would be in the "dwang", because they all crossed the floor from the DP to the DA, just as one example.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon member has one minute left.MRS J M DOWNS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Let me go to my favourite theme. Security in the buildings, the look of the buildings and the way that the <strong>Legislature</strong> is run. On Monday, I arrivedin the car park and there was a big bag of garbage exactly outside the front gates there. The Speaker promised faithfully, during the last sitting, that he would attend to the matters of this<strong>Legislature</strong> and the surroundings. He promised faithfully that he would attend to security. There are people wandering around the precincts of this Parliament without escorts, there are peoplewho wander in and out at will, and firearms have been brought into this <strong>Legislature</strong>.A colleague of mine was up there in the gallery, during the last sitting, and a man with a firearm visible in a holster, was sitting next to her. She said to him: "Are you a member of the police?"He said: "No."THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon member has exhausted her time.MRS J M DOWNS: I will finish at the end of the debate, Mr Speaker.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Cele has ten minutes.MR B H CELE: This is the longest ten minutes I have ever seen. [LAUGHTER] This ten minutes is longer than a rope. I hope I will have the same ten minutes.Hon Speaker, thank you to the hon Mrs Downs. She has been a bit of a referee and a bit of "ingqwele". [The cock of the gang]. I do not know what "ingqwele" is in English. Trying to whip boththe ANC and IFP and taking it upon herself to do so. Maybe one will not spend much time on her today, but the days are not over yet! We will come back and find out what makes her think thatshe can take care of all of us. [LAUGHTER]I want to look at the motion that she raised. The IFP has to give equal Cabinet seats, and all that. I am not going to debate that because the IFP did not adhere to that and gave the DA twoseats bapha nangu umlamu wami bamupha ukuba uNgqongqoshe. [UHLEKO]. [they gave my brother-in-law the position of being Minister]. [LAUGHTER] The IFP have broad shoulders in
that they have carried the DA, but sometimes at the expense of the ANC, as was agreed upon.2305The other point is that nobody, including the ANC, has abided by the agreements which they have reached, and the motion talks about the traditional leaders and agreements. I want to debatethat point.Maybe it will help if the IFP tells us how much they want to use and abuse the traditional leaders. It is going to be very difficult for some of us to separate the IFP and the traditional leaders andmake sure that they are not put there to serve the political longitude. I will say this, Inkosi Mdletshe knows, Baba Ntombela knows, the hon member Mr Gwala knows and the hon member MrMncwango knows, I phoned them and the hon professor knows. I phoned them to say when I was to address the people of KwaNgenetsheni in Vryheid, Inkosi Zulu took the key and ran awaywith it. That is the community hall key. He said there was no ANC member that will come here and address the meeting. I have raised it with these members. Up to this point nobody has toldme that this matter has been taken up.Two weeks later I phoned them again to say my comrade, a Buthelezi guy could not get married in the hall, because he is seen as a brother of an ANC councillor in the area. He paid themoney to use the hall, he had the receipt, and the hall was locked again by the same people who said that the ANC do not get married in the community halls in these areas.What I would like to know...AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.MR B H CELE: Hon member Baba uMthiyane, this is not a taxi rank.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.MR B H CELE: What I want to know is when is the IFP going to bring this thing to an end, when the hon member Inkosi Gumede tells his people who want go and listen to the Deputy Presidentand the Minister of Health at Jozini, never to come back to his area, what does he mean?HON MEMBERS: Hau!MR B H CELE: Yes, these are the things that we want to understand. Are we really talking about uBukhosi because we want to protect uBukhosi or want to abuse it? I want to know whyAmakhosi aseThekwini [Amakosi of Durban] have been called time and again by Inkosi Mdletshe and Inkosi Gumede, hon members, to come and account to them why they are working withthe Council. Even making them sign affidavits? Why do they attend those meetings? I want to know.AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.MR B H CELE: Do not worry who tells me. The question is, does the IFP allow this kind of abuse and expect everybody then to respect Amakhosi thereafter?You see in my hand, I have a case number here. The case number is CR27/05/2003. This case was opened in respect of Inkosi Mdletshe.HON MEMBERS: Hau! The Speaker?MR B H CELE: Yes the Speaker, because he led a mob that went to the house of Inkosi Musawenkosi Mhlongo who was an ANC candidate, and they intimidated him in his house. They putup IFP posters, placards and everything and shouted at him to stop being the ANC candidate in the area.
2306HON MEMBERS: Hau.MR B H CELE: And you expect us to say, Bayetede, Bayetede Nkosi yami when that happens. The IFP are responsible for some of the people not respecting the Amakhosi.AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!MR B H CELE: If they become political animals, they must realise that we know how to deal with political animals. We are political animals. Not today, not when things are nice, sometimeback when things were really tough and some people were really running under tables. We came out and we said here we are. We know what it is to be a political animal.Those are the things we want to understand very well. This motion maybe gives us the opportunity to ask and be told why a certain political party would just march into the house of InkosiLuthuli, because they claim that he is ANC, and the next morning you stand up. Others are correct when they are IFP and they come and sit here. The same IFP will march to these Amakhosithat they suspect are ANC.The IFP political leadership does not say anything about that. Even when you go and tell them that this is the situation, this is what is happening, they lift no finger to make sure that these thingsare stopped. Baba uNtombela the hon member, has not done it and I have told him time and again there is a problem at KwaNgenetsheni.At one time it is correct to be reasonable. At one time, it does not matter whether it is ANC or IFP. It is correct to see things if they are wrong. Behave as such. Behave as an educated,civilised person. You cannot allow people to go and close the halls when the people getting married are from the ANC. You cannot allow that. You do not even need to call the police. Youneed to call on your members to behave and be civilised, and behave like normal human beings. You do not need the police to do that. You need to raise your voice and say this is wrong.Rather than come here and shout at us you can go and shout at your members, some of them Amakhosi, that are blocking us from working there. Then you can hear that you can shout andyou can be heard, rather than come and shout at us who are victims outside and want to be victims inside here again.We are not going to allow Amakhosi to be abused by yourselves as if you are protecting the tradition, whereas you are extending your political...THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon member is left with one minute.MR B H CELE: Angisalifuni nokulifuna, ngiyabonga. [UHLEKO] [I do not want it anymore]. [LAUGHTER]HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! [LAUGHTER]THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. Let us then proceed. Next is the hon member Mrs Gasa. You have nine minutes.MRS F X GASA: Mr Speaker, the author of this motion speaks of the IFP and ANCs failure to abide by the natural undertakings.AN HON MEMBER: Mutual.MRS F X GASA: Mutual undertakings. Thank you very much. This is not my language. Thulani. [Keep quiet]. I am not going to be disturbed. I am not going to take questions. I think this isthe game I am going to be playing. You can heckle if you want, but I am going to say what I want to say.AN HON MEMBER: Yes.MRS F X GASA: Lapha sesivuma manje ukutshelwa [Here we now allowed to be told] by a minority party to the point that we are now being desecrated sesize sitshelwa nanokuthi i-speaker
2307esinaso sekufanele sidede. [we have even been told that the Speaker we have must get out of the way]. I am very happy. For the first time Mrs Downs did what her party stands for, and thatis to tell the truth. The world outside there and the media know that all fingers are pointed at the Speaker. For the first time she is telling us the news about the Deputy Speaker and the Officeof the Speaker. To err is human! The Speaker and his office are human. What did you, as an Executive Board do when you saw all these things?AN HON MEMBER: Nothing.MRS F X GASA: All of a sudden now, because there are so few weeks to the election niyapekequla niqala izinto ekade saziqeda. [you are publishing openly shameful affairs which have longbeen dealt with].I am very sorry, Mrs Downs, when you say in the car park there is a lot of dirt. That is not under our jurisdiction. I want you to tell me since when is the Speaker going to go there with blackplastic bags useqala manje ukuqoqa imigqomo, ngibuza kuwe. [he is beginning to collect bins, I am asking you]!I am asking that. Let us now go back to the question of traditional leadership, which is a fundamental issue. We are not talking about the locking of gates. We are not talking about traditionalleadership. It is not the IFP's baby to say there are quite a lot of people that are corrupt. You need to separate the corrupt people from what we are talking about.When we look at the question of the House of Traditional Leaders, we are talking about chapter 12 and chapter 7 of the Constitution. Ukuthi kwalahleka isikhiye, kwabaleka enye Inkosi we arenot interested in that. [That the key went missing, an Inkosi ran away - we are not interested in that].We are not interpreting that. [LAUGHTER] We are saying we, as the traditional house as it is.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!MRS F X GASA: We cannot answer for the Inkosi who got lost. I am glad that the hon member, in the motion, listed the issues surrounding the role of traditional leaders, as an issue thatneeds to be resolved. I think your information is very limited when dealing with something sacred to our being. All African brothers there know what we are talking about.If all of a sudden abasazi ukuthi uBokhosi sebuhamba kanjani sekuyadlalwa manje [they no longer acknowledge uBukhosi], it is a great pity.It is common knowledge that our party has through its leadership, sought to engage the ANC in order to finalise this issue. We have done that with the ANC. Manje sengiyabona seyiyabaleka i-ANC, sasilwa sonke e-World Trade Centre. [Now I can see the ANC fleeing, we were all fighting at the World Trade Centre].Hon colleagues will remember that during the CODESA negotiations in 1993, this was an issue that almost prevented the IFP from participating in the elections in April 1994. We talk aboutthese things. We need to go to the history and look at where we are coming from. We cannot just find ourselves on these seats and then start talking willy nilly about these issues. There is abackground, there is history, and the IFP is saying, only those Inkosi that are doing something wrong in their area need to be dealt with properly.Amakhosi awanankinga. [The Amakhosi have no problem]. Amakhosi started long ago. They had bigger constituencies. They were managing them properly. At that time the Amakhosi wereable ukufida izizwe nezizwe zibahloniphe, ileyonhlonipho esiyifunayo. Sedelelana kangaka nje ngoba silahlekelwe ileyonhlonipho eyayikade isetshenziswa Amakhosi ukubane asibambe isizwe.[At that time the Amakhosi said they were able to feed the tribes and the tribes respected them, and that is the respect we want. We are so insolent towards one another because we have lostthat respect kept in place by Amakhosi to hold together the nation].We actually talked about the Amakhosi as a traditional house. We also talked about the role of His Majesty the King, in particular, now putting him with his own subjects. This discussioncontinued intensively even past 1994. However, as we all know, and I am very happy that you are remembering it is ten years, it is indeed ten years, and nothing has been done. This issue isstill a willy nilly issue. This is what is worrying the IFP. Not Inkosi entshontshayo, Inkosi edakwayo [Not the Inkosi that steals, the Inkosi who gets drunk] because these are the things which you
2308always hurl at us when we protect our tradition.There have been many undertakings, including those from the current President, ngilaleleni niyeke ukubanga umsindo, [listen to me and stop making a noise] of our country, who is alsoPresident of the ANC, but to no avail, we are not seeing anything.As if that is not bad enough, we then had the controversial Land Bill tabled which could further erode the powers and responsibilities of traditional leaders.Uma ngempela sikhuluma iqiniso uButswana niyamthanda, uMoroko niyamthanda, uBhana niyamthanda, o-Ubanda, Olesuthu, o-Republic of Congo, o-Swaziland, [If we really speak the truthyou like Botswana, you also like Morocco, you like Ghana as well as Uganda, Lesotho Republic of Congo and Swaziland], they have still preserved the Monarchy and traditions.AN HON MEMBER: Yes.MRS F X GASA: Nina nifuna ukuchithelani esinakho manje. [Why do you people want to destroy what we have acquired]? Why are you, mercurial? Why are you now porcupines, when wereach these things? Kufuneka sibhekwe kukhulunywe ngazo, nithini kubantu akekho noyedwa oMhlophe owanigijimela lapha ngaphandle nongafike emakhaya enu ezohlala emakhandleleniakhale nani njengoba siduswa ilodadewethu. [They must be checked and talked about. What do you say to the people, there is not a single white person who came to our homes and mournedwith us as we are misled by this lady].Hon colleagues, even we here in this Province do not have a clear understanding of the role and the relationship of His Majesty, the King. Kodwa kuthiwa uyathandwa elebhuqwa, uyayibonaimbube uyithathe udlala ngayo, udlala ngayo, kuyasihlupha-ke thina la. [But it is said he is loved yet he is being made sport of, you see a lion and play with it and it worries us].I really raise a great concern, because if you call Buthelezi mina ngikhulume nge-President uma sikhuluma futhi nangoBaba uMbeki siye sithi Baba akukho muntu ozogagulwa la sengathithi...[whereas I speak about the President and when we speak about Mr Mbeki we always say "Mr" and no-one is going to be called by name as if...]That is not fair. Wena my sister who is calling that kufuneka sihlale phansi, siyohlala phansi kanjani uma thina singama-major... [You my sister, who is calling that we must sit down, how are wegoing to sit down if we are major...]THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon member has one minute left.MRS F X GASA: Ngiyabonga Baba. Mina ngizoliqeda ngeke ngilidube njengelungu elihloniphekile. [Thank you sir. I am going to complete it]. I am not going to give up on it like the honmember.We are certainly, as the IFP, committed to ongoing discussions with definite time frames. All we are saying is, let us not be divided. A divided House falls. A united House stands. We needour brothers. We need our brothers from white extraction, Indian extraction, but it is our duty as the Zulus, the blacks and the Sothos of this Province to teach each other where our origins are.Kuphela nje esikushoyo. Uma sengigcina isikhathi ngisenaso ngizama ukusho ukuthi akesiyithatheni i-Constitution siyifundeni uma siphethe izindaba zoBukhosi. Okokugcina futhi we muststop scratching where it is not itchy. [What we are saying. In conclusion when I still have time, I urge that we must take the Constitution and read it, if we are handling affairs of uBukhosi. Andlastly we must stop scratching where it is not itchy].THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Cha, akusekho okokugcina. [No, there is no last thing].MRS F X GASA: The mover of the motion is scratching where it is not itching. Thank you.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!
2309THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Volker has five minutes.MR V A VOLKER: Thank you, Mr Speaker. <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> is a Province with a considerable potential. It has economic growth potential that is unequalled in South Africa, but we are notmaking the best of it. It has a tremendous tourist potential, but we are coming third as far as the various provinces of South Africa is concerned. It has the largest population component of allthe provinces in South Africa. It has good national road infrastructure, but unfortunately it has an unsatisfactory educational record.It has a record of political conflict that is undermining the needs of stability and progress. It is unheard of that coalition partners in government are the ongoing main contenders in conflict, inmatters relating to government and administration of this Province.Personally I believe that the electorate's decision not to give either of the major parties a clear majority has correctly placed the responsibility on both major parties to negotiate and put in writinga proper and unequivocal agreement. That, apparently, has not been done.In June 1999 the Premier introduced a motion here setting out in somewhat equivocal terms, the parameters of the coalition agreement. But it was not sufficiently clear to be implemented on anongoing basis. That, I believe, is the problem that we are facing in this Province.I believe it is absolutely essential for the sake of peace and stability and growth and proper good government, that there should be a very clear understanding between the two major parties.We, in the NNP, as I believe the other minor parties, have accepted that both the ANC and the IFP have a major role to play in the Government of this Province. But they are not playing thatrole because of this ongoing internal conflict between the two major parties.Therefore I believe that it is essential that the last paragraph of this motion should read: "This House therefore requests that the IFP and ANC, in the best interests of the Province, urgently meetto discuss and resolve the outstanding undertakings and to give effect thereto".We are going into the elections for 2004 within less than a year, and these matters have not been resolved. We are continuing in conflict and we are continuing to undermine the stability thatwe have in this Province. The resultant attitude of the electorate will possibly be a lower percentage poll, and it will possibly backfire on the political parties. We have no confidence in politicalparties, because they cannot resolve their problems. I believe it is essential and urgent that political parties should attend to these matters and address these matters.In the debate numerous issues have been raised, many of which have validity. They are factual. It is essential that these matters be resolved with a proper resolution between the two mainparties. We, in the New National Party, accept that it is essential for the IFP and ANC to reach some agreement of proper, stable co-operation. We ask that this should be done. I thank you.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. Hon member Mr Rajbansi for five minutes. In the absence of hon member Mr Rajbansi, I then call upon Mr S Qoma, the hon member hasthree minutes. In the absence of the hon member, I call upon Mr J H Slabbert. The hon member has three minutes.MR J SLABBERT: Thank you, Mr Speaker. For the second day I am lucky to get ample time, because the other speakers are not present. Mr Speaker, I am not going to try and be a judgeand comment on the issues raised by the ACDP, affecting the two major parties in the House, namely the ANC and the IFP. Some of the issues I am aware of, some I am not aware of. Really,I am not prepared to stick my neck out about issues I do not know, in other words, I am not going to rush in where angels fear to tread.I think Mrs Downs is a much braver woman than I thought she was. The days when I learnt to fly an aeroplane my instructor always said to me: "Remember the day when you qualify, always bea safe pilot, not a brave pilot." So I hope this flight Mrs Downs is on, will not be a crash-landing. [LAUGHTER]MRS J M DOWNS: I have already crashed.
2310MR J SLABBERT: I am concerned about the reference in her motion about the integrity of political leaders. As we sit here, I hope the public also think so, we are all leaders. It can pointfingers at all of us, which is really unfair.Mr Speaker, I do however support fully the last part of her motion where she requests the IFP and ANC to talk and meet and discuss whatever problems there are. That I support fully, and Ihave supported that since my first day in this House. I thank you, sir.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr Slabbert. Next will be the hon member Mrs Ambler-Moore for seven minutes.MRS M AMBLER-MOORE: Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is quite a motion, and I am just going to confine my comments to the last two words, "outstanding undertakings". I do not want to getinvolved with the rest of the motion. What this motion does is give us an opportunity to reflect on the environment in which we work. I do not want to go into all the ins and outs, there are a lot ofissues, but I am going to deal with some.I come from 21 years in local government. I was a councillor in Durban, as most of you know, and I was used to a very different way of operating. If the Executive Committee or Councildecided a policy, circulars went out immediately and it was implemented that same day or within a day or two. I am not sure what happens now with the Acting Executive Mayor of eThekwini.Here in <strong>KwaZulu</strong>-<strong>Natal</strong> Parliament, often decisions are taken and never heard of again. We have heard from Mrs Downs about decisions and resolutions not carried out by the office of theSpeaker. So I will not go into it. Let us hope that after this debate the office of the Speaker will take a serious look at what has been happening, what has been said today, and improve upontheir performance, and that both sides will start doing something about it. I think it is worth remembering that both parties are in the office of the Speaker, not just one party.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!MRS M AMBLER-MOORE: Mr Speaker, I am not just talking about the Office of the Speaker. I said this in the last sitting of this House, there is a sloppiness throughout this Province. Timedoes not permit me to go into too many, but let me try a few.There is one Department that I deal with in the Province, from whom I get answers to both letters and questions, and that is the Health Department. I thank the Minister, the Chairperson, theSuperintendent and his staff, because they always reply.You get very little out of Transport. On two occasions it has taken months to get an answer to the same question and despite asking it again I got the same unsatisfactory answer. I am yet tohave a reply from the Head of Transport to letters that I have written to them. Works, Local Government, Welfare, it is all the same.I have got wise now. I have discovered that it is no good writing letters. They just do not get answered. I have developed a network of contacts in all those departments and I have theircellphone numbers and they are charming and helpful, and I get things done by contacting them on their cells.Mr Speaker, we have workshops, presentations, meetings and often only a few turn up. A classic example was Friday, 13 June. Local government organised a special meeting. Some of thestaff cancelled their leave. Some of us changed our leave to be there. It was a long weekend. The Planning Commission came to do a presentation for us with Msekeli, and we barely had aquorum. I found it embarrassing.Discussion on the acquisition of the <strong>Natal</strong> Witness Building went on for months. The Facilities Committee the Executive Board held discussions, yet the final report on the acquisition of thebuilding was presented to Cabinet the day before Cabinet was expected to make the decision to go and find the money and we wonder why there is a certain amount of angst in the Cabinet.
2311How often has the condition of the filthy car park been raised, and nothing was done. I do not use that any more. I park elsewhere. Nothing is done. I disagree with the hon Gasa. Of coursethe Speaker and Deputy Speaker do not have to go out there and clean it, but surely they can instruct a member of staff or employ somebody in these hard times to keep that park clean.How often have members been requested not to park in the premises of Parliament, yet both sides go against the Whip's rulings. The Transport Committee, we heard it this week, goesoverseas and comes back with good recommendations. Ten months later still nothing has been done.It is wonderful to see so many people here today. Often this place is half empty, and I am not excluding my own party. We are just as bad. What I find really scary today is how defensive we allget. Matters that come up in open meetings of the Executive Board, the press is there, everybody is there, they are discussed there. When the issues are raised here, people becomedefensive, they interrupt and instead of looking at the issues and saying there is something wrong here, we need to do something about it, we just take points of order, start attacking each otherand try and defend the indefensible.Finally, Mr Speaker, the hon Cele said that if something is wrong we must admit it and make it right. I forget his exact words. I could not agree more. Let us do that. Let us take a long, hardlook at ourselves and admit we are running a sloppy show in this Province.As the hon Gasa said, stand united and let us do something about it. I thank you.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. In my amended list the next to now address the House is the hon Inkosi Mdletshe. The hon Speaker has ten minutes.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!INKOSI B N MDLETSHE: (The Speaker): Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. Bakithi angilungise la, ngizolungisa. [They say I must correct here, and I am going to correct]. I would like to setthe record straight on what the members have said.MR V C XABA: Point of order.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Point of order?MR V C XABA: There is a Rule which says a member cannot speak from the Chair that is not his or hers. [LAUGHTER] The Speaker normally speaks from that Chair. At some point when hewas delivering his report he spoke from that Chair. I am not too sure if an exception applies in this case. I leave it to you, Mr Speaker. Thank you very much.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member. My ruling is that I will allow the Speaker to speak from where he sitting at the moment.INKOSI B N MDLETSHE: (The Speaker): Thank you so much. In fact, all these chairs are mine. [LAUGHTER] Firstly, I must say my sisters, hon Mrs Downs and hon Mrs Scott, I do notwant to take this issue as an issue of race. We have tried everything in respect of Security. We wrote a letter to the National Ministry. We went to the Commissioner of Police in the Province.We discussed this matter with the VIP Protection Unit. We have done everything possible. We even went to the extent that we requested the Executive Board to employ a private security firm.We have done everything, but you will always raise these issues in a manner as if we are lazy and are not doing anything about it.You will remember when I presented my budget speech here, I said that the Board requested R10 million in order to upgrade the security system of this <strong>Legislature</strong>. You are aware of that.What do you expect us to do in our office? Do you want us to be police officers? We have even spoken to the Warrant Officers who are stationed here.Again, I do not want to take this matter as a race card. I do not like to do it in that manner. We do have a problem. Kusenabantu lana e-South Africa abasakholelwa ukuthi umuntu oMnyama[There are people here in South Africa who still believe that a black person] is corrupt. It is bad. It is really bad. Sengihlalile nokusebenza izindawo zomphakathi. [I have spent much time
2312working in community places] and I never, ever in my life have been corrupt.Again, colleagues, I do not want to be dragged through the mud which has been done by my colleagues in respect of the AG report. I know that it is a confidential report, and it was decided assuch. Only a few members of this <strong>Legislature</strong> have got that report.Therefore, Mr Speaker and the hon colleagues, I will formally request that we look into this matter and take the necessary steps against those members who break that confidentiality. We haveto do something about that.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!INKOSI B N MDLETSHE: (The Speaker): The hon member says that I am not in the office. My sister, this matter was raised at a committee meeting where I myself, the Deputy Speaker, theChief Whips and other leaders were present.I do not know if you were present at that meeting, because you used to not attend some of the meetings anyway. We forgive you for that, but during that meeting it was understood that I, firstly,I am a member who has a constituency to serve. I have to serve those people. I cannot be here all the time. Even the other office bearers of this <strong>Legislature</strong> are not expected to be in theiroffices all the time, because they are supposed to serve their constituencies. Why do you put this blame on us? Is it because I am black? Is it because I am an Inkosi? I do not have to gofurther.I notice that you do have your colleagues with you. I do not know if they are your colleagues from your party, or your friends. Maybe they have to listen to these things. You are representing aparty. That I will always respect. You are a Christian. If there is anything, my sister, that we have done in the office that is wrong, come to us and we will discuss these matters with you. Youwrote a letter to me complaining about that issue. I wrote a letter to the police officers, and I supplied you with the reply. I do not know what you want from us. Really, I do not know what youwant from me.At any rate, colleague, let me address the issue of cleaning the park here. You raised that issue with me and I came back and I said that we have appointed two people to look after the park.The Sergeant-at-Arms supervises those people. Again you are blaming me, the office of the Speaker.My sister, ukholiwe wena asikusebenzise ukukholwa kwethu. [you are a believer and we should put our belief to good use]. Mhlonishwa Baba uCele let us not be fooled by politics. Mycolleague, hon member Mr Cele, he is my friend. I would like to talk about this case that you referred to. You know, there is one thing ngike ngithi angisiyona i-politician. [I sometimes say I amnot a politician]. I am not a politician, I must say it.Kodwa kukhona engifuna ukukusho Mhlonishwa ukuthi ningonela abantu bami, abantu bami, uma ela usawumuntu wami, nimenza abe namanga engingamazi ukuthi uwathathaphi ingane yamileyana. Kuyingozi uma nizothatha izingane zami, leyondaba kade sengiyizwile ngithi ngizoba nendlela ngoba angithandanga ukuyikhuluma esizweni ukuba ngibiza isizwe sonke ngithi lomfanawakwaMhlongo lo obemelele ukhetho uthi uthi ngami ngoba bengazi ukuthi lokho kuzosho ukuthini kubantu, angifuni ukukwenza lokho. Futhi ngiyakholelwa njengoba ukuphakamisile njelunguelihloniphekileyo ngizocela ukuthi kungaphumi ngoba kuzobe kusuka besekonakala lapha emakhaya.AN HON MEMBER: Uyasabisa. [You are threatening].INKOSI B N MDLETSHE: (The Speaker): Angisabisi, angikusabisi because uma umuntu ezothi kimina...AN HON MEMBER: UKUPHAZAMISA. [INTERJECTION].INKOSI B N MDLETSHE: (The Speaker): Lalela lungu elihloniphekile, muyeke lowo ngoba akaqhamuki khona umangase ngikuxoxele ukuthi lowondodana wami wakwaMhlongo isitatimende
2313asishoyo uthi wezwa ngenkosikazi kwakukhona Inkosi uMdletshe. Unkosikazi wathi kwisitatimende sakhe akabonanga kahle ukuthi obani. Ingane enye ekhulikhona ithi yabona omunyenomunye ayi Inkosi uMdletshe. Ingakho ngithi mina kwami-ke ilungu elihloniphekile belilethe i-case lana lingayiphenyile. Yasihluphake leyonto yikho ngithi lungu elihloniphekileyo angifuninengane yami, ingane yami leyana. Ngaze ngasho ngathi ngikhuluma nayo ngathi ngiyocela ndodana ukufike ehhovisini ngizoxoxa nawe ngoba awukaze ungizwe nakanye ngithi wake wasizaizinkomo zakamakhelwane zidla umbila wazikhipha. Akukho nokuncane owake wakwenza ndodana ukusiza umphakathi. Kodwa ngiyazi ukuthi mhlawumbe iqembu okulona lisuke lakubonaungumholi angikuphikile lokho. Kodwa woza ndodana ngizokufundisa bonke laba ilungu elihloniphekile uMchunu isakhamuzi sami lesi.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Ndabezitha Inkosi isisele nomzuzu owodwa. [Ndabezitha, the Inkosi has one minute left].INKOSI B N MDLETSHE: (The Speaker): Bengifuna ukuchaza ukuthi musani ukungonela abantu bami, ngiyamthanda lowamfana, musani ukungonela yena, musani ukumfaka umoya omubiwokuqamba amanga, abe nento nje aphume azofunga phambi kwenkantolo aqambe amanga.TRANSLATION: But I want to say sir, you are spoiling my people, a person in that area is my subject, you make him a liar and I wonder where you get that from, this is my child. It is going tobe dangerous if you take my children. I had heard that story and I thought I was going to devise a way of dealing with it because I did not want to summon the whole tribe and make a publicannouncement that the Mhlongo boy who stood for election said this and that about me. I know the impact that would have had so I did not want to do it. And as you have raised it honmember, I urge that it should not be released because things will go wrong at homes out there.I am not threatening, I am not threatening you because if a person says to me...Listen hon member, leave that one alone because he is not from there. If I can tell you that mhlongo young man's statement where he says he heard it from a woman in the presence of InkosiMdletshe. The woman says in her statement she did not see clearly who those people are. The one child who grew up there said it saw others but not Inkosi Mdletshe. That is why I say thehon member brought an uninvestigated case to my house.That worried us and that is why I say hon member, I do not want with my child, that is my child. I even said when speaking to him that I would like him to come to the office for me to have aword with him for I have never heard that he once drove the neighbour's cattle out of the mealiefield. You have never done anything my son, no matter how small, to help the community. But Ido know that your party has seen you as a leader and I have no qualms with that. But come, my son, I am going to teach you about all of them, the hon member Mr Mchunu is a citizen and mysubject.I wanted to explain that, do not spoil my people, I like that boy, do not spoil him, do not talk him into lying, for him to come before court and lie under oath. T/EAnyway, colleagues, this is our institution. This Parliament is for us. We have to leave this House and show people who come in future that we have made history and that we have utilised thisinstitution properly.AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!INKOSI B N MDLETSHE: (The Speaker): Not blaming each other, colleagues. We are adults now. Asifunde ukuthi siyisebenzise kahle leNdlu ibe iNdlu yethu, siphikisane kuyona, sixoxekuyona. Ngike nginithande uma senibanga umsindo senenza zonke izinto ngithi there you are. Democracy is about that. Kodwa not ukungipenda uqambe amanga ngegama lami lunguelihloniphekileyo ungipende nje impela uzuzume lokhu upendana nami uqamba amanga ngegama lami akulungile lokho. Ngikhuza njengomtomdala. Ngiyabonga Somlomo.TRANSLATION: Let us learn to make good use of this House. Debate in it and discuss in it. I will not like you if you make a noise and do all funny things and I will say there you are,democracy is about that. But not to paint me and lie about me hon member, to stand up and tell a pack of lies about me is not the right thing. I remonstrate with you like an old man. Thank youMr Speaker. T/E
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much. The next to speak is hon member E S Mchunu for ten minutes.2314MR E S MCHUNU: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to appreciate the initiative of the hon Mrs Downs for bringing this matter to the attention of this House, in the form that she has done andtherefore affording this House the opportunity to debate and look at these matters.The first thing that I want to say is that Resolution 2 of the Coalition Agreement between the ANC and the IFP says that each of the participating parties shall contribute no less than 40% of themembers of the Cabinet. Such a proportion will guide the allocation of parliamentary officers and Chairpersons of the different parliamentary committees. This is what Resolution 2 says.Resolution 5 says the following:That in order to promote stability and good governance this agreement shall be binding on the parties in government until 2004, unless a decision supported by two thirds of themembers of the <strong>Legislature</strong> is taken to reverse its effect.I am specifically reading these Resolutions for the awareness, in particular, of the hon member Mr Krog, because I noted a few days ago he tried to sneak the DA into this particular agreement.[LAUGHTER] The problem is that we are talking about a document which is written in black and white and there is no way that you can actually sneak the DA into this agreement.[LAUGHTER]Therefore, what the hon Mrs Downs points out here is true. It is a matter that is starkly outstanding for the IFP to bring about equality in the Cabinet. When you count the Cabinet posts for us,they do not constitute 40%, they are less than 40%. It is a matter that is outstanding.MR H BEKKER: I would like to ask the hon member a question of what is 40% of ten?THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, there are many ways of doing things, but what we usually do in this House is that when you stand, you stand on a point of order. If you want to ask aquestion, you indicate that you want to ask a question, but you do not go on and ask a question.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.MR H BEKKER: I will abide by that, Mr Speaker. May I ask the hon member a question?THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you. Will the hon member take a question?MR E S MCHUNU: I assume that the question that the member wants to ask is actually not intelligent. I will not answer it. [LAUGHTER]THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you. Then proceed.MR E S MCHUNU: As long as these two resolutions are not abided by, I do not think there will be sound relations between the two parties, especially in this Province.I then want to proceed to the matter of traditional leaders and continue where my colleague, the hon member Mr Cele, left off. To start with I want to refer to what the hon member Mrs Gasasaid. Among other things she said that the ANC is only pretending to respect Isilo, His Majesty the King, and that Isilo siyabhuqwa. [pretending to respect].I want to set the record very straight here, because this is very important. I just want to remind the hon member of the House about the incident at Ulundi in 1979 where the Isilo had to escapeand run for his life. When matters had been made so thin around him that he really had no alternative but to escape.
2315HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, can we allow the hon member who is rising? Yebo, mama?MRS F X GASA: Can the hon member take a question?THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, will you take a question?MR E S MCHUNU: What I said about the first one applies to the second one. [LAUGHTER]THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: He is not taking a question. Then proceed, hon member.MR E S MCHUNU: I then want to proceed and remind my colleague, the hon member Mrs Gasa in the House about yet another incident at Enyokeni.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Kunelinye lephuzu futhi la. [There is another point here]. Hon member, Mr Gwala?MR M B GWALA: Ngisukuma Mhlonishwa Somlomo, ngephuzu lokulungisa, ukunhlanhlatha. [I rise hon Speaker, on a point of order].THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Asilungise Mphephethwa kumuphi umthetho? [Let us correct it Mphephethwa, on which Rule]?MR M B GWALA: Umthetho lapha u-97(2) ukhuluma ngelungu uma likhuluma okungelona iqiniso kuleNdlu. Ngicela ukusho ukuthi ilungu uma lithi Isilo saphuma sabaleka akulona iqiniso,ilumbo ngakho akakuhoxise lokho, asikaze Isilo siphume sibaleke. [Rule 97(2) deals with a member when such member tells an untruth in this House. When the member says His Majesty ranout, that is not true, it is a blatant lie. The member must withdraw that. His Majesty never ran out].MR E S MCHUNU: Mr Speaker, I regard what the hon member Mr Gwala said as a statement, and do not have any evidence that what I said is not true. Therefore I stand by my statement.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Naba bekhuluma lungu elihloniphekile bathi lokhu okukhulumayo kuliyilumbo, ngakho bathi kuhoxise, awungisize-ke. Ngifuna ukuzwa eyakho iphozishini. [They arespeaking hon member. They are saying what you say is a blatant lie, and they say withdraw it. Just help me. I want to hear your position].AN HON MEMBER: Nicabanga ukuthi kuvele kuhoxiswe, sihoxiswe. [You think a withdrawal is made just like that]?THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: What I will then do, in fact what I have done in all of the claims that have been made, I will want the hon member to substantiate what he is saying and that he isstanding by it. We will start the process by doing that, and I will be writing a letter to him after this sitting here today. So at the end of the proceedings you will be receiving a letter requestingyou to substantiate what you have said.MR E S MCHUNU: I will then proceed and remind the hon member, my colleague, Mrs Gasa and the House about yet another incident at Embelebeleni. The sum total of these incidents, inmy view, do not constitute respect for His Majesty. To me they are worse than what the hon member Mrs Gasa purported to say.Secondly, the African National Congress was born in 1912. When you look at records, both internationally and nationally, you will find that there was not a single problem between the AfricanNational Congress and Amakhosi from 1912 up to 1948. Instead you will find that they were members and were leaders and that they were participating and were active in the activities of theAfrican National Congress.
2316Maybe after 1948 what you may have found is that after that the Amakhosi began to be contested, not between the ANC and anybody else, but between the people of South Africa generally,and African people in particular, and the then government of the National Party. After 1994 the records will tell you that what the African National Congress has been doing up to now is to tryand build up good relations with Amakhosi.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Colleagues, uyabona-ke uma seniqedile ngizoyiphinda futhi lenkulumo yami. Akusizi ukuthi nithi ningamalungu ahloniphekile nize nibhale nasemthethweniyaleliPhalamende ukuthi ningamalungu ahloniphekile, niphinde futhi uma umuntu enganibizi ngamalungu ahloniphekile nilwe ngoba phela imithetho isho njalo. Kodwa uma sekufanele ukuthikubekhona into eniyenzayo niyenze ngendlela ehluke kakhulu kumalungu ahloniphekile.Akusizi angiqali futhi ukukusho la ukuthi sekunesikhathi eside sisho ukuthi thina la emsukweni sibeke la ukuthi sibambe umthetho waleNdlu ukuthi uhambe kahle. Niyathanda ukuthi nisibekekulesisimo la singasakwazi futhi ukuthi sinikhontrole nina. Niyathanda ukukwenza lokho.Uyana njenganamanje seniqale ukuthi nakhe umsindo ngempela osuqale ukuthi ube-disrupt. Ake niwuyeka bakwethu kesibuyeleni kwi-debate ekade ivele ikhona ngoba angikaze ngisho ukuthiningawubabgi umsindo wenu ojwayelekile wepolitiki. Kodwa ukona kangangokuthi akasakwazi ukukhuluma lona okhulumayo kodwa kukhona umthetho njalo la othi; "Akafanele aphazamiswekangangoba angakwazi ukukhuluma". Malungu ahloniphekile aningisize-ke.Thank you. Proceed, please.TRANSLATION: Colleagues, you see when you have finished I am going to repeat my speech. It does not help that you call yourselves hon members and you even write that in the Rules ofParliament that you are hon members, and if one fails to refer to you as such you take exception as the Rules state. But when you have to do something you do it differently from hon members.It is not the first time that I say this, we are obliged to ensure that the Rules of this House are adhered to. You like to put us in a situation where we are unable to control you people. You likedoing that.As it is, now you have started making some noise which is disruptive. If you could please stop making that noise and let us go back to the debate because I have never said do not make yourusual political noise. But now the noise is such that the person on the floor cannot be heard yet there is a Rule that provides: "(The Speaker) must not be interrupted to such an extent that it isdifficult to continue speaking". Hon members, please help me. T/EMR E S MCHUNU: La eNdlini ehloniphekile akekho noyedwa ongakuphika ukuthi ngesikhathi i-ANC ithatha izintambo zombuso e-South Africa yakhuza yababaza ukuthi Amakhosi kusenjelokhu kwathi nhlo kuze kushaye u-1994, ahola uzuka yakhushulwa imali.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.MR E S MCHUNU: Amakhosi ayebhuqwabhuqwa indlala kungekho awanakekelayo. Kukhona nje abantu ababelokhu bethi bawakhonzile, bayawakhulekela kodwa ebebhuqwabhuqwa indlakodwa bona bedla izambane likapondo ngapha eceleni. [UHLEKO] Kwaba ithina satshela uMongameli ukuthi hawu empeleni ngeke kwabukeka kahle ukuthi sithathe izintambo zombusosiphathe lonke leli lase-South Africa bese kuthi Amakhosi esihlala phakathi kwawo siwayeke aqhubeke abhuqwabhuqwe indla njengoba bekwenzeka. Ngoba kuyaziwa ukuthi ebehola R500-00.[UHLEKO]AN HON MEMBER: Ayi, ayi, R17. [No, no, R17].MR E S MCHUNU: Okokuqala lokho. Okwesibili, kuyaziwa ukuthi i-ANC ithe ezingeni likaZwelonke akwakhiwe iNdlu yaMakhosi. yabakhona kade ingekho. Kwakuqala ngqa e-South Africa
2317ukuthi kubekhona iNdlu yaMakhosi e-Cape Town. Okwesithathu, kwiziFundazwe zonke njengoba sikhuluma nje sekukhona iNdlu yaMakhosi kade kungekho lokho, kwakungekho ngishoOlundi.Kwakukhona umthetho nje kuphela kuthiwa Iziphakanyisa kungekho kodwa okuphakanyiswayo. [Uhleko] Ngifuna ukuphetha ngokuthi ezingeni le-Local Govenment lo Hulumeni baseKhayalakhona u-ANC aphethe khona oHulumeni baseKhaya nalapha futhi khona uHulumeni waseKhaya...THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are left with one minute.MR E S MCHUNU: ... uphethwe i-IFP kuhamba kahle kakhulu. Kodwa la okuphethe khona i-ANC kukhona imizamo ezanywayo ukuthi kungabikhona ubudlelwane phakathi kwaKhansela ka-ANC kanye naMakhosi njengoba kwenzeka eThekwini. Ngifuna ukugcina ngombuzo ukuthi njengoba ilungu elihlonophekile uMama uGasa siqhamuke naye Empangeni siyazi sobabili ukuthiinkosi uZungu ivala amanzi alethwa uMhlathuze Municipality.TRANSLATION: In this House no one can dispute the fact that when the ANC took over as government, it expressed shock and disgust that up until 1994 Amakhosi were still being paid apittance and they then got an increase.Amakhosi were dying of starvation and no one cared about them. There were people who claimed to be owing their allegiance to Amakhosi, they saluted them but they were starving to death,whereas they we living wealthy lives. [LAUGHTER]It is us who informed the President that it will be a disgrace that we take the reins to rule over South Africa whilst Amakhosi, amongst whom we live, die of hunger. It is known that they wereearning R500. [LAUGHTER]That is the first thing. Secondly, it is known that the ANC suggested that the National House of Traditional Leaders be instituted and it was instituted, something that never existed before. Itwas the first time in South Africa that there was a House of Traditional Leaders in Cape Town. Thirdly, in all provinces, as we speak, each province has a House of Amakhosi, something thatwas never there before, not even at Ulundi.There was only an Act - Iziphakanyiswa Act - but nothing in place. [LAUGHTER] I want to conclude by saying at local sphere of government you find it everywhere where the ANC is in powerand here too where the IFP is in power things are running smoothly. But where the ANC is in power there are attempts to jeopardise relationships between ANC councillors and Amakhosi, aswas the case in Durban. I want to conclude with a question that the hon member Mrs Gasa and myself both had from Empangeni, we know that Inkosi Zungu cut the water supply brought byUmhlathuze Municipality...HON MEMBERS: UKUPHAZAMISEKA. [INTERJECTION].THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order, please! Kuyahlupha nje ngoba impela. [It is disturbing].MR E S MCHUNU: Kusho ukuthi sekufanele ngivele ngithule manje. Angisale sengiqhubeka. [It means I just have to keep quiet now. Let me just proceed].HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, order! Order! Order, please! Hon member Mrs Downs, you have six minutes to conclude the debate.MRS J M DOWNS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Let me start by responding to the hon Inkosi Mdletshe, the Speaker. All of us were elected to this House to do something. Every single one of us.When one holds high political office and the Speaker's Office is high political office, more is expected than of the ordinary members, and much is expected of the ordinary members. We are
2318elected to do something. It does not wash when we throw up our hands and say, "What can I do, it is not my fault." Whether it is the cleaner, whether it is a member of a committee, whether itis a Deputy Speaker, the buck rests with you, Mr Speaker. That is why you hold that office and that is why you earn the big salary.The second thing I want to say is that it is very easy to throw out the race card every time there is criticism. It makes me mad. Do you know why it makes me mad? Because when there is realracism, nobody listens, because everybody is saying racism when we raise substantive and real issues. Please do not do it.The third thing that makes me extremely angry is when people say, "You are a Christian, you must not talk." Christians are supposed to tell the truth.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order, please!MRS J M DOWNS: They are supposed to do all the things that I have done this afternoon, which is expose what is wrong. This report has been available for a year and a half. Between theSpeaker and the Executive Board, we are sitting now a year and a half later and there are people that have stolen money, and no action has been taken against them.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, can we allow the hon member who just stood up? Hon member Mrs Gasa?MRS F X GASA: Some of us have spoken on this debate, though we are not aware of the content of the report because it is still sub judice. I take what the member is saying, but really wecannot base things here in terms of that. There is no racism that came up. Ngiyaxolisa Baba uMacingwane engikushilo alikho iqiniso... [My apologies Macingwane for what I said there is nottruth...]THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Kahle-ke Mam angithi umthetho phela i-clear ithi iyakusukuma kuphela uma uphakamise i-point of order. [Just a moment Madam, the Rules are clear that you onlyrise on a point of order].MRS F X GASA: Angithi i-point of order Baba uMacingwane. [But it is a point of order Macingwane].THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Cha, akuyona i-point of order uyabona i-point of order yenziwa ngokomthetho lokhu okwenzayo Mama ukukhuluma nje u-debate nelungu elihloniphekile, asiyekesinga-debate nayo, akuvumelekile. [No, it is not a point of order. You see a point of order is raised accordingly, but what you have done is just debating with the hon member. We must not dothat. It is not permissible]. Proceed, hon member.MRS J M DOWNS: Mr Speaker, when it comes to a choice between obeying man's laws and God's laws, I will always choose God's laws. Let me tell you right now that I have a duty to thepeople that elected me and a duty to the rest of the Province to make sure that anything that I have something to do with is done above board. Now, I have kept quiet for a year and a half. Ihave kept this confidential, but I am warning this House that I believe that this report must be released now and must be actioned.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!MRS J M DOWNS: Mr Speaker, it is not feasible, in a just and democratic society...THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, there is another point of order.INKOSI B N MDLETSHE: (The Speaker): Is the hon member prepared to take a question?
2319THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Will the hon member take a question?MRS J M DOWNS: No.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, she is not prepared to take a question. Proceed, hon member.MRS J M DOWNS: Mr Speaker, if I can finish, and let the House listen to me here. When I negotiated with the IFP, I said to them, please replace the Speaker so that we can have order in thisHouse. I asked them to. They have not. I have made no secret of any of the issues, I have raised them in the Executive Board, and Mrs Ngcobo well knows that I have, because she is the onewho shouted at me.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can we have order?MRS J M DOWNS: I cannot carry on.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can we have order in this House, please? Can we have order? Hon member Mrs Ngcobo?MRS L G NGCOBO: Mr Speaker, I wish to challenge the point that this report, she has been sitting on it, because she wanted the Speaker to move away...HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please, can we have order? Can you sit down? Sit down, hon member, please. Can we have order? This is a very long six minutes that we aretrying to give to this member, but what you are doing now, hon members, you are doing exactly what I was saying Mrs Gasa must not do. You are standing up and you are not rising on a pointof order. You are simply debating on the issues that the hon member is raising, and that is not allowed by the Rules. Please can you return to your seat and let the hon member proceed? Honmember, please proceed.MRS J M DOWNS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Let me be clear here. I have spoken all along about the Speaker and the Speaker's Office. There are two parties represented there, not just one.I have attacked both. In the issue of the Speaker's Office and the issues that I have raised and this letter, I cannot defend that no action has been taken against people who have broken thelaw and are still employed, who are still happily working in this <strong>Legislature</strong> a year and a half later with no action having been taken against them. I will not, and I cannot, go along with that.Mr Speaker, I do not have the power in this House except to speak. I would like to put to both the parties in this House, the ANC and the IFP, you are the ones that have the votes in this House.HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.MRS J M DOWNS: Mr Speaker, I am being harassed so I cannot continue.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: We Mama uNgcobo, uyabona akukuhle uma ngizothi ngisuka ngibe sengithi ngicela ukuthi uMama uNgcobo aphume kuleNdlu, ngalokhu nje okwenzayo. Akukazekwenziwe eNdlini enjenganale ukuthi kungahlalwa kulokhu kukhonjwa umuntu okhulumayo aze athule, nami ngize ngikubuke kodwa uyaqhubeka nje uyakhomba. [Mrs Ngcobo, you see it is notgoing to be good if I ask you to please leave this House, for what you are doing. It has never been done in a House such as this one that a person speaking is being pointed at until he keepsquiet. I have looked at you but you are still continuing to point at him]. It does not get done. This is breaking the Rules of the House. It does not get done. Please do not force me to takeaction.
2320HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mrs Mchunu?MRS A MCHUNU: Mr Speaker, I am rising on Rule 97(2). The motion seems to have misled this House in that it looks as if the presenter of this motion was aiming that the two parties shouldfight each other. According to the summary of the motion, it says this House requests that the IFP and the ANC, in the best interest of the Province urgently meet to discuss and resolve theoutstanding undertakings. I think the tone that has been taken is far from Christianity. Thank you.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, there is nothing wrong with it. There is nothing in these Rules which says that we must deal with the tone. Unfortunately I will allow the hon memberto proceed, because there is nothing that is being broken in the Rules. Proceed, hon member.MRS J M DOWNS: I wonder, Mr Speaker, why it is unfortunate? I think it is very fortunate that I happen to have a voice in this House.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, as you speak now, you have one and a half minutes. Please take note of that.MRS J M DOWNS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Now I am requesting and challenging both the ANC and the IFP to transform this <strong>Legislature</strong>. To put in the systems that are available to monitor aR31 billion budget which goes unmonitored because we do not have the systems to do it. We cannot even keep our own staff straight. I am requesting both parties to take action and deal withit. I am requesting both parties to release this report and make it public. I am requesting both parties to deal with the Speaker's Office. I am requesting both parties to transform this <strong>Legislature</strong>into the world class institution that it should be. I challenge you to do that.Thank you, Mr Speaker, I am done.HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. Hon members, we have come to the conclusion of this debate today. That then allows me to now present an opportunity to the Speaker.Oh, Mr Cele?MR B H CELE: It will be a point of order on the statement made by Mrs Gasa that Mrs Downs ufuna induku. [wants a stick].HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order! I have been saying this for quite a long time now, that these things that you have said which cannot be recorded and cannot be proved are notassisting us. So please allow me to close this meeting properly.I will then allow the hon Premier, if he has anything to announce, to seize this opportunity to do so. The hon Premier?THE PREMIER: Mhlonishwa Somlomo, ngabe ngichita isikhathi salendlu, ngiyabonga. [Hon Speaker, we will be wasting the time of this House. Thank you].THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: That brings the business of this House to the end. There is another hon member on the floor. Hon member, Mr Slabbert?MR J SLABBERT: Mr Speaker, please allow me to say what I want to say. I think I will sleep better tonight. What is happening in this House, I think the members can make it much easier for
2321the Speaker. I think the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker will both go to heaven without going to church, because they have hell on earth here. [LAUGHTER] I really think all the members,each and every one, should go on some or other course in order to learn how to behave themselves. They can still achieve what they want to achieve with good behaviour. It is really adisgrace. I think we should invite the public to come and see what is happening in here. They will not have any respect for us.THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. Hon members, I now adjourn this House until tomorrow at 11 o'clock. The House is adjourned.HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 18:30 UNTIL11:00 ON THURSDAY, 26 JUNE 2003
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