Challenge FAQ - Homeschool-Life.com

Challenge Math Program FAQs
1. Why has Classical Conversations chosen to “standardize” their Challenge-level
math track with the Saxon program
a. It is a complete K-12 Program
b. Teaches math spirally, incrementally, systematically, and with repetition.
c. Intentionally integrates with the subject of science and other practical applications “along
the way”.
d. Has been around for more than 25 years with proven results.
e. Computer-based, DIVE CD’s available that aid in “extra” help for home school parents in
introducing the Saxon Lesson. (Be sure your editions match☺)
f. Teaching Tape Technology has created DVD’s that work through every practice problem
and lesson problem for Saxon Math editions. website link view video sample link
g. Listen to Leigh Bortins concerning the Saxon Math selection. link
2. Where is the Geometry in the Saxon Math program
Many universities require students to have a full year of informal geometry in order graduate. The
Saxon math program has integrated geometry into their Algebra scopes. Therefore once student
has completed Algebra 1 and 2 they have completed three credits.
3. How do I record Saxon Math credits on my transcript
Visit Saxon’s FAQ webpage.
4. Do colleges view Saxon as an acceptable math curriculum
Yes, Saxon textbooks are used by thousands of students in public and private schools nationwide.
Many of these students have continued their educations at colleges and universities throughout
the country. There have been no major problems with these institutions accepting Saxon’s math
programs. Some have had questions regarding our integrated approach to geometry, but in every
case we have successfully addressed the questions with a letter of explanation. – from Saxon
FAQ page
5. We do not use Saxon Math at home, why should I attend the Challenge Math/Logic
Seminar
Participating in the math seminar of a particular Challenge program is about the dialectic (logic)
discussion or skill of math concepts as well as working through some of the math problems
associated with that math concept. It is not about “getting through” a certain math book.
While using the same text at home that is being used as the reference in the one hour math
seminar is convenient, it is not necessary or required in order to benefit from the math seminar.
CC Challenge tutors will work from CC’s core math program, which is Saxon. Parents may
use the math curricula of choice at home and still benefit greatly from the dialectic discussion and
logical thought process during the math seminar.
Suggestion: Check with your tutor on the concepts covered using the Saxon Algebra reference
and how it may correlate with your preferred math program at home. There will be similarities that
may easily coincide in schedule between the two programs.

Classical Conversations recognizes that the selection of a solid math curriculum is an intimidating task for many home school parents.
As home school parents our greatest desire is to “do things right”, but we must be careful to not make decisions based on ignorance,
fear, or the latest “fad”. A few of CC’s leadership team members were engineers by training, and they find the math included in Saxon
solid and excellent. Your math curricula choice will be based on your own views of math and past experiences with math. Remember
there is no “perfect” math curriculum; upper-level math will require hard work no matter what math curricula you end up choosing.
May the Lord grant you wisdom!
Comments from Leigh Bortins regarding Saxon and the Math/Logic Seminar…
Saxon math texts are popular among home school families because their incremental explanations and
practice sets allow most parents and students to teach themselves Algebra. Classical Conversations uses
Saxon's most recent edition texts. Most students can not learn Algebra in a class setting in only an hour a
week. To excel, they must work daily at good study habits and completing the problem sets while a parent
at home keeps up with their work. By following the math of their eldest child, most parents can relearn
while their child learns and then they will have a much easier time teaching math with subsequent
children. Home schooling is work for the parent as well as the child. If you couldn't read, you would need
to learn how to read in order to teach your child. The same idea applies to math. It is currently
fashionable to be innumerate in America. Being innumerate is as dangerous as being illiterate in our
culture. Christians especially have no excuse to give up on the language of God's Creation (mathematics).
Please, pray not to pass this attitude on to your children.
The goals of the Algebra seminar are to explain the new lessons for the week, go over any previous
difficulties students have had, and provide a chance to discuss math with other students. At the
beginning of each seminar, students need to tell the tutor which problems are challenging them, otherwise
the tutor can't help. When the student's questions are resolved, the tutor will move on to explaining the
next four lessons assigned for the upcoming week. The class will study the practice problems together,
working at the board so both the tutor and students can see how they approach the problem. Quite often
one student will clarify a problem another student has.
Algebra students must work on good study habits. Students who have always been good at math start to
have difficulty at this point for two reasons. First, they are often used to doing math in their head.
When they encounter multi-step problems, they may lose track of the steps if they do not write them
down. Second, the number of steps increases opportunities for careless errors. To help overcome these
problems, insist that problems with more than one step be written down. Also, insist that only a few
problems be completed per page. Many students attempt to do 25 problems on the front of one sheet of
paper. This leads to a lot of small numbers per page, which are difficult to check quickly. We suggest
dividing a page into four sections for four problems. It may seem like a lot of wasted space now, but it is
a habit that will pay off as the number of steps increase in higher math.
Saxon has done a great job of hand-holding through the Algebra I text. In the later texts, Saxon
expects the student to be able to look up previously taught information and to study the steps presented.
They also make the assumption that students understand basic algebraic principles and do not always show
every detail when solving a problem. Learning to study well in Algebra 1/2 and Algebra I will greatly
improve the odds for success in Algebra II and beyond.
- excerpt from Challenge I Guide (pps 11, 12)

Sequential History and Classical Conversations
“The glory of God is to conceal a matter; the honor of kings is to search out a matter.”
Proverbs 25:2
A number of people have recently asked me, “Where is the classical history” What I suspect
they mean is “Where is the history sequence promoted by ‘traditional’ classical schools”
Dorothy Sayers in her essay, “The Tools of Learning,” never even mentions a historical
sequence to studies. Now, a sequential focus is a very good idea, but it is not a necessary idea
for classical studies.
The whole point of classical studies is to give students the tools needed to jump in anywhere in
any subject, discover the foundational grammar, and proceed to teach themselves the subject –
hopefully with a good mentor nearby to help with difficulties.
Because Classical Conversations works with home schooling families with various abilities to
teach at home, we have developed our curriculum differently than formal classical schools
where there is a Master for each subject or public institutions that do not even offer such
academically challenging programs of physics and Latin. With this in mind, our considerations
are very different.
So where is our classical history
In Foundations, it includes memorizing a 203-point timeline, adding interesting sentences that
flesh out some of the timeline points, reading great literature at home and writing about the
units we are studying. If a parent follows our curriculum guide and purchases even a few of our
suggested materials, they will have an excellent, sequential history program at home with their
children having the fun of becoming Memory Masters. My oldest son, whom I did not teach
classically in his early years and therefore did not receive a strong grammar of history, is
studying Western Civilization in college this semester. He came home at spring break and was
participating in our history lesson for the week. He said, “Mom, this is just what I’m supposed
to know for my class. How come you didn’t teach me this stuff” I did not understand the
value of memorization when my first two boys were home schooled. Now they are paying the
price for the lack of a grammar level classical education and my little boys are reaping the
rewards of a classical education from the start.
In Challenge A and B, we take a very different approach to middle school or junior high. This
age student is still a child and yet is able to think reasonably and logically. They can think
abstractly and so need to begin honing the dialectic skills. Unfortunately, too many of them
come to us with a need for stronger grammar skills (as my son mentioned above). So, we
continue to have a lot of grammar in the curriculum like English and Latin and geography, but
we also mix in Christian worldview discussions, essays, and presentation skills to get them
thinking. The students read and discuss a lot of history that is especially effective if the student
has a timeline memorized. If they do not have a timeline in their head, our historical fiction and
biblical discussions remain excellent literature studies but not integrated classical studies for
those students. For example, in Challenge A literature, students read, discuss, and present
papers about ancient myths, ancient Jerusalem, the middle ages, colonial America, New
England slavery, Victorian England, and World War II. They also have opportunities to write
about and discuss modern science and have an intensive geography course. Parents need to
effectively use the opportunities we give them to practice their grammatical, dialectic, and

hetorical skills. A student with a timeline and world map memorized will benefit far more from
these historical novels than a student without these skills who has only been exposed to good
history books. The good books have nowhere to “fit” in a child’s mind without a time line and
map. Now, we do work on memorizing the world in Challenge A so all the students have an
opportunity to catch up on their geography grammar. Parents, who have not previously
focused on giving their child strong grammar-level studies, should have them memorize a
timeline to use throughout junior and senior high. We suggest the one we use in Foundations,
The Veritas Press History Cards. If a little child can memorize them in a 24-week period,
certainly an older child could do it over a summer. The difficulty to overcome is that most older
children will find it a chore rather than a fun challenge.
In Challenge B, students read, discuss, and present papers about colonial America, early 20 th
Century Florida, the Ozarks, and modern America, with a little bit about World War II. Instead
of geography, they focus on current world events and the American justice system through
Mock Trial. The focus is away from grammar and towards thinking things through. Both
Challenges A and B emphasize numerous writing opportunities because students need to learn
to write well to succeed in the higher Challenges.
In high school, we totally ignore the sequence most classical schools use. I would love it if the
average home schooling parent of a ninth grader could instill a love for The Iliad in its poetic,
unabridged form and convict their child of the importance of entering the great conversations
of western civilization. Unfortunately, few parents have had success with this in their home
school. However, they may love Mark Twain or at least may be familiar with Melville. Thus, we
reverse the chronology and start with American studies in Challenge I, European studies in
Challenge II, tackle American studies again in Challenge IIII, and World studies in Challenge IV.
By Challenge IV, we can help a student enjoy the search for life’s big ideas because if they stay
in our program that long, they tend be secure, self-motivated young adults. So we begin our
rhetorical skill building where families are most comfortable and proceed to more difficult, less
familiar material as the students mature.
In Challenge I, they study American Literature, American Government, and Free Market
Economics. The actual assignments provide a great course in American history. And they
spend a lot of time on current events through Debate. But again, without a timeline and map in
the student’s head these courses are disconnected subjects to the student.
In Challenge II, they study British Literature and Western Cultural History. From Beowulf to CS
Lewis, from Roman architecture to modern Christian responses to music and art, the students
have over 30 writing assignments, debates, and presentations related to European history and
Western Civilization.
In Challenge III, students study an American History text, Macbeth, Henry V, Hamlet (all three
English history), Julius Caesar (Roman history), and the historical consequences of the ideas of
philosophers from Plato to Freud. They, too, have over 30 assignments related to history this
year. Again, we have plenty of opportunities to study history integrated with many other
subjects but it takes a timeline, a map, and a heart searching for big ideas to get the most out of
these courses.
In Challenge IV, we integrate studies using “The Discoverers” (a history of science), three major
theologians, and a study of ancient literature and the questions the literature raises for modern
Christians. Students in these seminars use the materials assigned and more materials that they
choose on their own to present multiple theses on the relationship between science, literature,
and theology throughout history.

So, if you are looking for a chronological history course in our Challenge program, you will not
find it. If you are looking for a focus on the practice of writing and discussing and presenting
historical information and history’s effect on the rest of the subjects God created, our program
is perfect for you. We know you need to have a good history sequence in your head in order to
think logically and present information effectively at the dialectic and rhetorical levels. That is
why it is so important to teach your young students to memorize maps and a timeline.
In summary, Classical Conversations programs emphasize the tools of learning – grammar,
dialectic (logic), and rhetorical skills. We focus on grammar in the Foundations and Essentials
programs and in various seminars in the Challenge program such as foreign language. We focus
on the dialectic skills in Essentials and Challenge, and on the rhetorical skills in Challenges II-IV.
We do not focus on subject matter during Challenge seminars, though it is a very important
part of our curriculum. Parents need to do that at home. During our one day a week tutorials,
we demonstrate the tools of learning, answer difficulties, and encourage parents and students
to apply those tools in their personal studies. Those students entering our Challenge programs
without a solid classical grammar school education will need to put in the extra grammar work
in order to get the most from our Challenge programs.
Leigh Bortins
Classical Conversations
Founder and CEO
Revised 1/21/2009