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249 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 to decide some things and not others. And our failure to distinguish between institutionalized and non-institutionalized individuals may have led us to reach conclusions where I would be certainly open to the notion that there can be a definition of the benefit of -- prospective benefit to a group of people of whom the individual is one. Where if you had some -- both extraordinary proof that there was no other way of getting this information rather than just as an avenue of convenience, indication of the great value of the information and some surrogate process beyond the individual's relatives because we know that there are many relatives who are very protective. We also know that for some long-term institutionalized people there are relatives who have relatively little attachment to the individual and who are not really likely to exercise the kind of concern that we are expecting from them. This may just be a topic where the devil is in the details and we have got to go back and attend to those details a little bit more and we do not want to paint with too broad a brush. I continue to think we should go into it with a very strong presumption that the efforts should be addressed towards getting people to seek that consent
250 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 and to go through a process of finding subjects at times when they are able to consent, Zeke, and working with people longitudinally instead of just saying, "Gee, I need subjects and I want them to be depressed and so I will get them when they are depressed right now rather than having to take the greater effort to work with them over time until they come to a point where they are not depressed and can anticipate a future episode and how they would be willing to react at that time." DR. CHILDRESS: So this is kind of conceptual normative work to be done? MR. CAPRON: I think it is -- yes, conceptual normative. DR. CHILDRESS: What else do we need to do? MS. BACKLAR: Perhaps we actually need to do some boxes. God help us. DR. CHILDRESS: These are not boxed boxes but they serve the same purpose but we may need more complicated one along the lines of Zeke's several categories. We will influence Jonathan soon enough. MR. CAPRON: Jim, there is another generic question that -- usually I do not think it makes sense to spend a lot of time as a whole group wordsmithing, but I have been bothered with the draft as it now stands by the
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249<br />
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to decide some th<strong>in</strong>gs and not others.<br />
And our failure to dist<strong>in</strong>guish between<br />
<strong>in</strong>stitutionalized and non-<strong>in</strong>stitutionalized <strong>in</strong>dividuals may<br />
have led us to reach conclusions where I would be certa<strong>in</strong>ly<br />
open to the notion that there can be a def<strong>in</strong>ition of the<br />
benefit of -- prospective benefit to a group of people of<br />
whom the <strong>in</strong>dividual is one. Where if you had some -- both<br />
extraord<strong>in</strong>ary proof that there was no other way of gett<strong>in</strong>g<br />
this <strong>in</strong>formation rather than just as an avenue of<br />
convenience, <strong>in</strong>dication of the great value of the<br />
<strong>in</strong>formation and some surrogate process beyond the<br />
<strong>in</strong>dividual's relatives because we know that there are many<br />
relatives who are very protective.<br />
We also know that for some long-term<br />
<strong>in</strong>stitutionalized people there are relatives who have<br />
relatively little attachment to the <strong>in</strong>dividual and who are<br />
not really likely to exercise the k<strong>in</strong>d of concern that we<br />
are expect<strong>in</strong>g from them.<br />
This may just be a topic where the devil is <strong>in</strong><br />
the details and we have got to go back and attend to those<br />
details a little bit more and we do not want to pa<strong>in</strong>t with<br />
too broad a brush. I cont<strong>in</strong>ue to th<strong>in</strong>k we should go <strong>in</strong>to<br />
it with a very strong presumption that the efforts should<br />
be addressed towards gett<strong>in</strong>g people to seek that consent