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213 1 require -- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. CAPRON: Three -- DR. CHILDRESS: -- an advance directive for potentially beneficial. MR. CAPRON: That is right. DR. CHILDRESS: But it says it under number four. At least our draft says it. MR. CAPRON: Oh, I am sorry. I am sorry. I understand. DR. SHAPIRO: Can you repeat that? DR. CHILDRESS: Yes. It should be -- the "and" should be "or." MR. CAPRON: The thing that we have been discussing is point number three and you are now switching to point number four. DR. CHILDRESS: Well, this is just to get this clarification in. Thanks to Harold and Eric for calling it to my attention. Bernie? DR. LO: Yes. Let me also speak as someone who has tried to work in the field of advance directives and end of life care and it has been disappointing to say the least that it has not worked out better. So although I think we cannot translate all that experience, there

214 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 actually are some pertinent differences, and one being, I think, that some of the people you are talking about as potential subjects may have a remitting and relapsing course -- I mean, there are moments of whatever you want to call it, remission or treatment -- may be able to be quite decisionally capable and actually have some sense of what it was like to relapse. But I am very skeptical about many people filling these out. I mean, some will. I guess you want to give that opportunity. But I guess my suggestion would be that what you are really doing, I think, with the current proposal is saying for all intents and purposes research that does not provide benefit and is more than minimal risk is probably not going to happen. It is going to -- you are going to have to work very, very hard to find that small group of individuals who are willing to fill out that research advance directive and you probably will not. That may be fine if that is what you want to do. I have some other comments that have to do with sort of our conceptual thinking behind why we -- why are we so willing to say that a piece of paper which is really just a signature and a notarization and may not express any more understanding, commitment or having thought through a decision, I think it really goes back to this notion of

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actually are some pert<strong>in</strong>ent differences, and one be<strong>in</strong>g, I<br />

th<strong>in</strong>k, that some of the people you are talk<strong>in</strong>g about as<br />

potential subjects may have a remitt<strong>in</strong>g and relaps<strong>in</strong>g<br />

course -- I mean, there are moments of whatever you want to<br />

call it, remission or treatment -- may be able to be quite<br />

decisionally capable and actually have some sense of what<br />

it was like to relapse.<br />

But I am very skeptical about many people<br />

fill<strong>in</strong>g these out. I mean, some will. I guess you want to<br />

give that opportunity. But I guess my suggestion would be<br />

that what you are really do<strong>in</strong>g, I th<strong>in</strong>k, with the current<br />

proposal is say<strong>in</strong>g for all <strong>in</strong>tents and purposes research<br />

that does not provide benefit and is more than m<strong>in</strong>imal risk<br />

is probably not go<strong>in</strong>g to happen. It is go<strong>in</strong>g to -- you are<br />

go<strong>in</strong>g to have to work very, very hard to f<strong>in</strong>d that small<br />

group of <strong>in</strong>dividuals who are will<strong>in</strong>g to fill out that<br />

research advance directive and you probably will not. That<br />

may be f<strong>in</strong>e if that is what you want to do.<br />

I have some other comments that have to do with<br />

sort of our conceptual th<strong>in</strong>k<strong>in</strong>g beh<strong>in</strong>d why we -- why are we<br />

so will<strong>in</strong>g to say that a piece of paper which is really<br />

just a signature and a notarization and may not express any<br />

more understand<strong>in</strong>g, commitment or hav<strong>in</strong>g thought through a<br />

decision, I th<strong>in</strong>k it really goes back to this notion of

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