Emma Rice Lecture Series - Roundabout Theatre Company

Brief Encounter:
A Conversation with Director Emma Rice
On November 27 th , 2010 as part of Roundabout Theatre Company’s lecture
series, Director Emma Rice spoke about “Brief Encounter” with Dramaturge Ted
Sod. An edited transcript follows:
TED SOD: Tell us a little bit about
where you were born and how you
became a woman of the theatre.
EMMA RICE: I was born in Nottingham
which, for anybody who doesn’t
know England, is right smack dab in
the middle. I had a very happy
childhood. I always thought I wanted
to be an actor because at the time,
there was a regional theatre in
Nottingham which was run
throughout my childhood by Richard
Eyre, the great, British director. My
parents, who weren’t theatre people
at all, started going to the theatre
because there was such great work
happening with actors like Jonathan
Pryce. I fell in love with the theatre at
that time. I loved the event of it. I
loved putting on a pretty dress and
having a magical evening. I still
enjoy that to this day.
I came to be an actress and I did
okay; rather than well. I started to
experiment and I met some very
interesting theatre makers. I began
to develop as much more of a
devising actor rather than a
traditional actor. I went to Poland
and worked with the Gardzienice
Theatre Association. I learned lots of
physical skills and musical skills.
When I eventually turned my hand to
directing, which was a very slow and
natural process, I had a lot of things
in my tool kit from the very diverse
career I had as an actress.
TED SOD: When you joined Kneehigh,
where you developed Brief Encounter,
it was as an actress, correct?
EMMA RICE: Absolutely.
TED SOD: Your training before the
Poland training was at the Guildhall
School and that was a traditional
emphasis on the classics.
EMMA RICE: Absolutely. The Guildhall
was very classical, verse and text
based training.
TED SOD: Can you talk about the
aesthetic of Kneehigh and how this
show came about? It is a rich story.
You went in for a meeting as I
understand it and this play was pretty
much a fortuitous accident.
EMMA RICE: It’s hard to know where
the story begins. I started working for
Kneehigh in 1994 as an actor and I
fell in love. It was absolutely love at
first sight and first meeting. Kneehigh
are based on the West Peninsula of
England, which is a long way from
London, in a barn on the cliff top.
Kneehigh had been going for 30
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years and when I joined in 1994 they
were going for 15 years. It was a
maverick, sexy, musical, funny band
of Brigands. I think there was a great
chemistry between us. It was
intoxicating. A lot of our work was
performed outdoors because there
were no theatres in Cornwall. There
is one there now that is eight years
old, but for the early years of
Kneehigh, we worked on beaches,
cliff tops, car parks and arsenic
wastes. It was very eventful and it
was fabulous. It meant that
we had to be visual.
There’s no point in doing a
great, long play outdoors.
People can’t hear us if it’s
windy or they don’t want to
sit for three hours if it’s wet.
The work becomes very
robust and physical. The
storytelling has to be very,
very clear and you also
have to work clearly as a
company. For example, on
a beautiful stage like this, if
you want someone in the
audience to look
somewhere, you throw light
on them. If it’s daylight, you simply
can’t do it. You have to have the
whole of the company of actors go,
“This is about them there.” You end
up making clear storytelling. I think
you can tell in Brief Encounter that
we are still doing that till this day. It is
clear how the ensemble throws the
focus around the room and it is not
done through technology. The
technology adds to it, but, in fact, the
team of people is telling a physical
story all the way through.
We have a loyal, large following in
Cornwall. Then people in London
“For the early
years of
Kneehigh, we
worked on
beaches, cliff
tops, car parks
and arsenic
wastes. It was
very eventful
and it was
fabulous.”
began to notice that our work was
interesting and that we were being
well received internationally as well. I
started being courted by a fabulous,
wonderful producer called David
Pugh. I started getting flowers and
that’s never actually happened to me
in my life, so I was very excited. He
basically said, “Come to my office. I
have a proposition for you.” I
remember walking down the road to
the side entrance of his office and
remember thinking, “Whatever this
man suggests, say no.” I
thought, “You run a company,
you’ve got things that are very
important to you and you
mustn’t be tempted by the
commercial world. Say no.” So
I went into his office and he
hands me a package; I’m liking
this but say no Emma, say no.
So I opened up the package
and there is a beautiful first
edition of Peter Pan. He says,
“Emma, I think you’d be
fantastic. Would you like to do
it?” I think - it’s not a bad idea
because who doesn’t love
Peter Pan? I also loved that
one of the first, early drafts J.M.
Barrie did of Peter Pan was called,
The Boy Who Hated Mothers. We
talked a little bit about that. I said to
David, “It’s a great idea but it’s not
really close to my heart and it’s not
what I want to do at the moment.
Thank you so much but I’ve got to
say no.” He said, “Okay. Well, thank
you.” We got up, I was going to give
him a hug goodbye and my eyes just
glanced on top of his television
which had some DVD’s above it and
I saw the title of Brief Encounter in a
flicker of a second. I said, “Now if
you would have suggested Brief
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Encounter today, it would have been
a really different conversation.” He
said, “Wanna do it?” and I said,
“Yeah.” Genuinely, that is the end of
it. I stumbled out into the street and
said, “How did that happen?”
I love that story partly because it’s
true, but partly because it was
something that I hold very dear in my
creative life which is that it was a
moment of genuine instinct. Very few
things happen by accident.
TED SOD: The film version of Brief
Encounter has a fascinating history.
It’s the most seminal film in Britain
isn’t it?
EMMA RICE: It’s certainly one of
them. It’s a film that everyone knows
about, knows of and can do an
impression of even if they haven’t
seen it. I’d like to think of it as being
in our DNA. It’s quite a tragic film. I
generally can’t remember the first
time I saw it and I did see it. My
guess is I saw it when I was home
from school one day feeling sick or
some rainy Sunday afternoon.
TED SOD: What is it in your soul that
made you want to do this fantastic
work based on that film?
EMMA RICE: All I know is that the
story means something to me which
goes back to that moment of instinct.
It’s almost the essential human
condition which is to feel love, to feel
care and then to have to make
choices around that incredibly
intense emotion. I find it impossible
to believe that there are many adults
who haven’t experienced at least
one part of this story; either the love
of somebody you can’t have or
someone you love loving somebody
else. It’s a very adult, very universal
and global story. What drew me to it
is that I’ve certainly been there. I live
the life of an artist and work with
some amazing people. I’m a fool for
love. I fall in love too often. That
makes it sound like it’s cheap but it’s
not. I love people, I’m excited by
people and I have been put into very
real and dark trouble in my life.
Therefore, this film absolutely is
relevant. It’s not because I wanted to
make an amazing piece of theatre –
that’s the byproduct. The seed of it is
that I know what the characters went
through. I don’t know of any of us
that don’t recognize those emotions
and the struggle they are going
through. That’s why we’re so moved
by it.
TED SOD: It’s a remarkable piece of
theatre because it uses so much:
music, film, text, dance. But you
didn’t set out to do that, did you? Tell
us about diving into this. What was it
like?
EMMA RICE: I don’t dive in. That’s the
first thing I don’t do. I circle for a very
long time. I know why I want to tell it
and I know how I feel about it. The
interesting thing is what I don’t know.
I spend a long time working around
the perimeters of an idea because of
my background and because of what
I believe about theatre. I don’t wish
to make a perfect version of the play;
get someone else to do that. I’m
absolutely interested in how I can
explode, expand and explore the
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material for a new audience. I do see
myself more as a storyteller. If I have
to describe what I do, I’m a
storyteller. I happen to use theatre at
this moment in my life, but I love to
tell stories. People have told stories
throughout history so I don’t feel
reverence towards them.
I first started listening to Noel
Coward’s music. Now that guy can
write a tune. He is amazing and he
can also write a wonderful lyric. “If
love is all I would be lonely” is a
heartbreaking lyric. He also wrote
bawdy songs like,
“Alice is at it Again,
“or “A Bar on the
Piccolla Marina”. I
very much enjoyed
exploring those. Then
I went on to another
wonder of Noel
Coward. That was his
poetry which I didn’t
even know he wrote.
You discover truly
phenomenal pieces of
work like “I Am No
Good at Love” that
reads “I betray it with
little sins; For I feel the misery of the
I first started
listening to Noel
Coward’s music. Now
that guy can write a
tune. He is amazing
and he can also write
a wonderful lyric. “If
love is all I would be
lonely” is a
heartbreaking lyric.
end in the moment that it begins; and
the bitterness of the last goodbye is
the bitterness that wins.” What an
extraordinary treasure to find when
working on a show like this.
That is where the idea of this
happened, where you think, “This
can’t just be putting this film on
stage.” It has to be a patchwork, a
collage or mash-up, as we call it, of
Noel Coward; of all the facets of that
man’s story where obviously he saw
great wit and great romance in life.
But he also saw great sacrifice and
great denial. We can only imagine
what it was like to be a homosexual
in the ‘30s. Yet, his spirit soars and
transcends. “A Room with a View”,
seems like an absolute prayer to just
being left in peace and to be simple.
It’s prayer for compassion. So once
you’ve discovered that trail of
humanity, that’s when you start
shaping.
TED SOD: Tell us about how you
worked with Stuart Barker, the
composer, and how you work
with actors? Is each actor a
different riddle for you?
EMMA RICE: Oh they’re all the
same.
TED SOD: There’s one sitting
right over there.
EMMA RICE: I have to qualify
my cheeky remark. Of course
actors aren’t the same but I
actually do think that people
are very similar. I think that
we might react differently to human
conditions, but actually we feel very
similar emotions. I think a lot of us
feel fear a lot of the time and I think
particularly those of us that work in
theatre feel fear because it’s
terrifying. Actors have to stand up
here and display a whole host of
various skills, actions all at the same
time and hope that you will like them.
It’s an incredibly vulnerable thing for
them to do. I think most of us are
pretty frightened most of the time.
We’re frightened that we will be
found out, won’t be good enough or
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that we’ll be rejected. As a team
leader, really I do treat most people
in the same way as I would wish to
be treated. I try to remove fear.
I work with people because they’re
brilliant and try never to question
that. I don’t question that. Really my
job is to get that brilliance out, use it
and be a detective of the humanity
that is around me.
TED SOD: Let’s talk about your
rehearsal process with actors.
EMMA RICE: There’s lots of
conversation and there’s lots of play.
These guys, till this day, play games
before every show. It gets you in the
room, gets you with each other and
gets lightness in the air. It reminds
you that you don’t have to impress
anybody; that it’s actually about the
collective involvement. The process
unfolds with every collaboration in
the same way. We talk about the
work, about why we’re doing it and
what it means. Obviously I’m leading
in some ways by saying, “I want it to
be this, “or “I want it be surprising or
funny or quirky.” Then magic
happens. If I’ve done my job well, the
collective imagination kicks in. If we
talk enough and if we play enough
and keep going to the heart of
things, tunes emerge or ideas
emerge or colors emerge. What
happens is that the wider pool of
people start having great ideas. It is
quite rare that someone has an idea
that isn’t right or indeed doesn’t lead
to another good idea. If people aren’t
fearful, they will be brilliant.
TED SOD: I know some of the songs
have music and lyrics by the master,
Noel Coward; but Stu Barker set music
to some of the words. Were you clear
on what some of that music should
be?
EMMA RICE: I pieced together the
rough structure of the songs, lyrics
and poems. If Noel Coward had
written a piece of music, we had to
use it. That was a really good
starting point. “Mad About the Boy”
wasn’t going to have a different tune.
What that meant for Stu was that any
original music created needed to
harmonize with Noel Coward. I think
that was a brilliant boundary for us to
work in. Stu and I had worked
together all our creative lives really
and we met at Kneehigh fifteen
years ago. Stu was what we would
call in England a ‘hippie’. He was
completely untrained as a musician.
Till this day he really isn’t fluent in
reading or writing music but he is the
best musician I have ever met. He
has folk and blues in his soul, as I
hope I do, and is constantly
surprising. The song at the end of
the act which bookends the show,
“This can’t last. This misery can’t
last,” I took from Laura’s voiceover in
the film and put into lyrics. I said to
Stu, “I want something that has the
feel of a Russian choir,” which was
to honor the use of Rachmaninov
from the film and also said, “Give me
something really unashamedly
emotional.” For “The Wide Lagoon”
which is right in the center I said, “I
want this to be about freedom and
sex. Go write some blues or
something that makes us all feel like
these people are actually on the
edge of unbuttoning themselves and
feeling the emotions.”
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TED SOD: And there’s an underscoring
that happens throughout too which he
composed, correct?
EMMA RICE: Yes.
TED SOD: So he composed all of that
in the flavor of Rachmaninov would
you say?
like for an eternity; not in a terrible
way. What you’ve seen tonight is
years of care. Sometimes I have to
pinch myself but it rarely happens in
the moment. A lot of people have
made deep decisions and plans to
bring this show this far.
TED SOD: What qualities from the
actors make you think, “He or she has
got to be a part of us!”?
EMMA RICE: I think everything is
referenced. We’re not
terribly analytical by choice
because if you analyze too
much you tend to argue
yourself out of anything. It’s
much better to say yes,
yes, yes. So I can’t say it’s
not influenced by
Rachmaninov but it
certainly wasn’t a decision
to be.
TED SOD: Has it been
shocking to you that this
production started at
Kneehigh, went to the West
End, toured all over the
U.K., came to the U.S. and now is on
Broadway or did you sense that this
was the little show that could?
“I always say I’m
not looking for the
best actors in the
world, which
sounds derogatory
to my brilliant
team, but actually
it’s the
personalities, the
people and it’s the
spirit.”
EMMA RICE: It’s impossible to
describe. It’s like dating.
You know very quickly.
Interviewing is a strange
thing for me because I was
an actor as well; so I am
sort of desperate for it all to
work out. It’s really a
chemistry thing. I always
say I’m not looking for the
best actors in the world,
which sounds derogatory to
my brilliant team, but
actually it’s the
personalities, the people
and it’s the spirit. It means
that I will often take a punt
on somebody.
TED SOD: Remarkable because some of
them have this facility to do whatever
you ask them to do.
EMMA RICE: Well, it had a
commercial producer at its start and
it’s a big title. Without the help of
David Pugh, Kneehigh probably
would have never got permission to
work on this property. There was
always this sense that this show may
be commercial. Nothing has ever felt
like a surprise is the reality. It’s
called Brief Encounter and it has felt
EMMA RICE: Most of us do have that
facility. I would argue that most of us
are capable of most things. Now,
obviously we have dedicated
musicians who are very skilled
people but most people can pick up
an instrument and learn something if
they wish it. A company like this has
such a spirit of generosity and
humanity that the band was set up
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for two people and suddenly I’ve got
half the cast on stage because they
all bought ukuleles. That is wonderful
because people aren’t wondering
when their next line is or their cue.
They’re actually wanting to be
involved in telling the story. It’s the
spirit I look for.
TED SOD: Before we let people ask you
questions, could you tell us about the
difference between British and
American audiences?
EMMA RICE: I would say that the New
York audience is similar to the
London audience. You take a little bit
of time to decide whether it’s funny
or whether you’re going to go with it
or not. Then you really come on
board, listen and enjoy the mix of the
comedy and the tragedy. The
exception to the response to it was in
San Francisco where they fell in love
with it from the second it started.
They never had to warm up and had
an immediate reaction.
TED SOD: Now it’s time to turn it over
to the audience’s questions.
Audience Question #1: Thanks for the
wonderful performance. How do you
keep the elements of comedy and
pathos in the production balanced?
EMMA RICE: We work constantly on it
and we feedback to each other on it.
The audience has actually been able
to tell us where the line is.
Sometimes a line gets a laugh that
we really don’t want. Then we talk
about why that could be. In terms of
how we make the work, it was never,
ever going to be a parody and
therefore that’s never come into the
rehearsal room. We really fine tune it
and discuss whether a head is
turned or whether there is another
character stirring a teacup at the
wrong time. It’s really the fine tuning
of that high drama. I think it’s the
high drama that we find difficult and I
think there’s lots of embarrassment
because somebody saying, “I want
to die,” is quite hard to hear. We
really have to train the audience to
be able to hear that and feel that as
well.
TED SOD: Alec and Laura for me play it
very earnestly and straight. You knew
that from the beginning?
EMMA RICE: Absolutely. There would
be no point in doing this story without
absolutely throwing our hearts and
souls into it which is what we’ve
always done.
Audience Question #2: This play had a
lot of movement in it that should be
labeled dancing. I was wondering if
you call it choreography?
EMMA RICE: Well, I am the
choreographer for the piece as I was
a choreographer for awhile. I think
my work is very choreographically
bent. I take that as a huge
compliment, what you’ve said,
because the dance of the piece has
as much meaning as the words. The
dance of it has been very chosen.
Thank you for that comment as the
choreography has been carefully
devised by me and the actors
together.
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TED SOD: Could you tell us about the
inspiration for hanging from the
chandeliers?
EMMA RICE: I really wanted there to
be moments in the piece which
aren’t in the film which are moments
of joy - where we actually feel joy,
and we feel love and we feel color.
This was the moment when they’re
drinking champagne which is so
naughty. I always knew I wanted that
moment to feel very romantic in
order to really feel the painful loss at
the end. I’ve always been influenced
by Chagall and the romance of the
weightlessness of lovers. We always
said it was the Chagall moment and
have called it that since the
beginning of devising. That’s what
happened. We got two chandeliers
and mucked around on them. It
keeps changing. It used to be one
chandelier and we’ve managed to
get two. That’s Broadway.
Audience Question #3: I read in the
Playbill that the film is based on
Coward’s play Still Life and was
wondering what changes were made to
the material for the movie. Did you
start with the movie or the play? How
did that work?
EMMA RICE: Well this is an
adaptation of the two together. I
have the rights to the screenplay and
the play Still Life. I was knocked out
by Still Life which is five scenes and
they’re all in the tea room. There’s
no other location. We just see the
lovers on their five meetings. It’s a
much richer piece for the three
couples. The other characters are
more carefully drawn in Still Life. I
really took that as my starting point
because I really wanted to enjoy that
broader sense of humanity. Then I
sort of cut and pasted it with the film
the bits I didn’t want to lose.
Audience Question #4: What is the
first thing you do in the room when
you are devising the product?
EMMA RICE: We play games. We
have big sheets of paper for
brainstorming and always sing.
When we’re in Cornwall, we try and
go out on the cliffs and sing. I really
try and create a day where people
aren’t feeling under pressure. We
play volleyball. Playing ball is a
brilliant thing because it’s about
something else. It’s not about you; is
my body good, is face good, is my
voice good? It’s about can you keep
that ball in the air and can you work
as a team. The one thing we never
do is read a script. We tell each
other stories, we sing songs, we
think about color, we think about
ideas and we eat. It’s a really big
part of the day to have good food at
the center of the day. We tend to
have a bottle of wine as well.
Audience Question #5: We saw this
production at the St. Anne’s
Warehouse last year. Here we are
seeing it again and it is stunning,
stunning, stunning. When you go on
tour again, will there be changes to
the next production?
EMMA RICE: Well, I can hardly make
myself say this, but there are no
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plans for Brief Encounter to have a
life after it closes on the 2 nd of
January. I’ve just seen it for possibly
the last time; so I found today very
emotional myself. Who knows what
will happen to Brief Encounter, if
anything, but luckily Broadway and
Studio 54 has been a pretty
remarkable place to end.
Audience Question #6: What are you
working on next?
EMMA RICE: The next thing I’m going
to direct is a version of Umbrellas of
Cherbourg early next year that I’m
very excited about. Somebody said
to me yesterday, “It’s too dark. It’s
too dark for Americans,” and I’m
thinking, “No, it’s not.”
TED SOD: We hope you’ll be able to
bring us Umbrellas, another exquisite
romance.
EMMA RICE: I do too.
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