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867 Fixed-term <strong>Parliament</strong>s Bill 1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term <strong>Parliament</strong>s Bill 868<br />
[Mr Harper]<br />
we have been proceeding at a sensible pace. Indeed,<br />
today’s proceedings were added when the Government<br />
realised that Members wished to engage in the debate at<br />
greater length.<br />
Chris Bryant: The Minister seems to suggest that all<br />
the evidence apart from that of the Clerk of the House<br />
falls into the other camp. The Committee listened to the<br />
various witnesses and reached a rather different<br />
conclusion—that the purpose of the Bill needed to be<br />
achieved without the courts being invited to question<br />
aspects of the House’s own procedures or the actions of<br />
the Speaker—and urged us to move in a rather different<br />
direction from the one advocated by the Government.<br />
Mr Harper: The Committee was quite right. I agree<br />
that we need to ensure that the courts do not question<br />
those matters. In a moment I will deal with the amendments<br />
and the Government’s reason for believing that the<br />
language we have used about the well-precedented use<br />
of Speaker’s certificates prevents the courts from questioning<br />
the Act.<br />
My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North<br />
Essex observed that judges were not more interventionist.<br />
I believe t<strong>here</strong> is evidence that t<strong>here</strong> has been more<br />
judicial activism in judicial reviews of Executive decisions,<br />
but as far as I am aware t<strong>here</strong> is no evidence that the<br />
courts have become more interventionist in challenging<br />
parliamentary proceedings. Executive decisions and<br />
decisions of <strong>Parliament</strong> are quite different from each<br />
other. Although the Supreme Court has a new name, it<br />
has no greater powers than the judicial Committee of<br />
the House of Lords that it replaced. I do not think that<br />
my hon. Friend’s concerns are well judged.<br />
My hon. Friend also referred to the European Court<br />
of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights.<br />
The European Court of Justice can deal with matters<br />
related to European Union law; nothing in the Bill<br />
would engage it. Similarly, the functions of the Speaker<br />
under the Bill do not engage any of the rights conferred<br />
by the European Court of Human Rights. I think it was<br />
only last week that the Joint Committee on Human<br />
Rights agreed with that when it said that the Bill’s<br />
provisions did not need to be brought to the attention<br />
of either House on human rights grounds.<br />
My hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South<br />
Herefordshire (Jesse Norman)—who is not in the Chamber,<br />
as he has had to fulfil a long-standing and important<br />
engagement to attend a meeting elsew<strong>here</strong> in the House—<br />
expressed concern about the European Court of Human<br />
Rights. In fact, it has shown the utmost respect for<br />
parliamentary privilege. In a 2003 case, A. v. <strong>United</strong><br />
<strong>Kingdom</strong>, it was specifically held that article 9 of the<br />
Bill of Rights did not violate the convention by preventing<br />
an applicant from taking defamation proceedings against<br />
an MP for words said in parliamentary proceedings.<br />
The European Court of Human Rights strongly supported<br />
the contention that courts would not become involved<br />
in these matters.<br />
I agree with my hon. and learned Friend the Member<br />
for Torridge and West Devon, who said that owing to<br />
the very nature of these events—the fact that they<br />
would be politically highly charged—judges would not<br />
be keen to rush in and engage in questions that are<br />
rightly to be resolved by political rather than legal<br />
means. I have heard no evidence, apart from assertion,<br />
that courts would do anything different.<br />
Mark Durkan: I gave the example from 2001 when,<br />
on the third attempt, David Trimble and I were jointly<br />
elected as First and Deputy First Minister by the Northern<br />
Ireland Assembly. That was taken to the courts. Yes, the<br />
courts did not touch on issues connected with<br />
the Assembly’s standing orders, but they did entertain<br />
the suggestion that the Secretary of State had failed to<br />
use the power and duty, given to him under law, to set a<br />
date for an election if no First and Deputy First Minister<br />
have been elected after six weeks. The Secretary of State<br />
did not do so, claiming that because he had notice of<br />
the potential to elect us, which had been issued by the<br />
end day of the six-week period, he could interpret<br />
the deadline differently. The court did not throw out the<br />
case and the judges—competent, serious, senior judges—<br />
divided on the issue. In the light of that precedent, the<br />
assurance of the hon. and learned Member for Torridge<br />
and West Devon (Mr Cox) does not stand.<br />
3.30 pm<br />
Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman makes my point for<br />
me. He accurately sets out the fact that at issue was not<br />
a proceeding in <strong>Parliament</strong>—a decision of this House—but<br />
an executive decision by the Secretary of State. As I<br />
have said, t<strong>here</strong> is lots of evidence that courts will<br />
challenge Ministers’ decisions, and one can argue about<br />
whether they will be right to do so; Ministers would<br />
probably argue they are not, but everyone else would<br />
probably argue that they are. The case the hon. Gentleman<br />
raises involved an executive decision; it was not a decision<br />
of this House or a proceeding in <strong>Parliament</strong>, and it is<br />
not protected under article 9.<br />
Mark Durkan: But what we are talking about is<br />
related to the closest equivalent in the Northern Ireland<br />
Act 1998 of the certificate powers being given to the<br />
Secretary of State. Sections 31 and 32 of the 1998 Act<br />
provide for the early Dissolution of the Assembly and<br />
early elections. They are the exact same powers, except<br />
that in Northern Ireland the Secretary of State has the<br />
powers of an “over-Speaker”, rather than their being<br />
vested in the Presiding Officer. They are the equivalent<br />
powers, however.<br />
Mr Harper: No, I think t<strong>here</strong> is a rather crucial<br />
difference. The powers in that Act are given to a Minister—<br />
they are not proceedings in <strong>Parliament</strong>. That leads me<br />
nicely on to amendment 6—<br />
Chris Bryant rose—<br />
Mr Harper: But the hon. Gentleman is keen to get in.<br />
Chris Bryant: Sorry, but the Minister is using the<br />
phrase “proceedings in <strong>Parliament</strong>” as though it were a<br />
self-evidently clear concept, but a great deal of legislation<br />
and case law has analysed various different aspects of it<br />
and it is now<strong>here</strong> near as clear as he might presume.<br />
Mr Harper: No, and that leads to w<strong>here</strong> I was going,<br />
which was to turn to amendment 6 and to explain why<br />
we are using the language of the device of a Speaker’s