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APPENDIX V<br />
TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEWS WITH PARTICIPANTS<br />
1. TRANSCRIPT OF THE INTERVIEW WITH<br />
ANTOINETTE<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay Antoinette,<br />
eers dankie vir jou tyd. Soos ek vir jou verduidelik het, die studie<br />
Gaan om "Kleurling" vroue, "sogenaamde Kleurling" vroue wat 'n "abusive marriage" verlaat het. Wat ek<br />
basies wil weet is<br />
hoe het jy dit ervaar om te kan loop.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Man, dit was baie moeilik om uit dit uit te kan kom. Dit verg baie krag, want jy is<br />
bevrees,<br />
en uh daar's uh, op daai omblik voel jy daar's niemand om jou<br />
nie. So dit is nie eintlik maklik om<br />
uit dit<br />
te kom nie.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So dis 'n gevoel van alleen wees.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Jy is alleenig,<br />
jy voel jy is in 'n gat in en daar's niemand om jou eintlik nie. En ek wil<br />
vir jou<br />
sê, baie mense bly in dit in vir die sake van die kinders, en vir die sake van hulle het no where om na<br />
toe te gaan nie, en uh hulle werk nie, dit is eintlik baie groot. Dit is<br />
eintlik die grootste probleme wat die<br />
vrouens mee sit. En meeste al vir die sake van die kinders. Hulle voel<br />
as hulle uit die huwelik uit stap, "Wat<br />
van die kinders, wie gaan vir hulle omsien?" Niemand gaan vir hulle 'n bly plek gee met soveel kinders<br />
nie (silence).<br />
En toe ek uit die huwelik wou uit stap nê, toe het ek mos nou, ek het vier kinders, you know, en vir my<br />
was<br />
dit so moeilik, ek het nie 'n ma hier nie, ek het nie 'n pa hier nie, ek is op my eie, ek is so jonk, ek is<br />
een-en<br />
twintig-en-'n- half, ek was nog nie twee-en twintig nie, baie jonk getrou, ek was omtrent<br />
sewentien.<br />
En uh met die klomp kinders, wie gaan vir my plek gee? (Speech very rapid.)<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Maar, soos ek nou tussen mense beweeg het en gesien het hoe hulle lewe en, dan vra ek<br />
vir myself: "maar is dit werd om in so 'n huwelik dan te sit?"<br />
En ek ontmoet een ou vrou eendag, en sy sê vir my : "My kind, kyk in die spieël in en kyk net watter,<br />
uh,<br />
uh, mooi<br />
mens is jy. Jy het nie nodig dat iemand jou so moet kavoert nie." En… ag toe dink ek is<br />
ook maar<br />
net een van daai praaitjies, jy weet mense<br />
like mos ook maar dinge praat en so, my auntie het vir my gesê:<br />
"Jy sal so sit dat iemand vir jou so karniffel.<br />
Dan sê ek: " Ag, hy sal verander."<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So jou famielie het jou eintlik encourage om uit te kom.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Uit te kom, ja, want hulle was altyd daar. Hulle het my gesien. Maar hulle het nou nie vir<br />
my geldelik gehelp nie of kan vir my 'n dak gee vir my kinders nie. Maar omdat hulle gesien het hoe die<br />
man<br />
my hanteer. Hy het my sommer in my gesig getrek, gesleep in die straat in. Hy het my geskop, hy het<br />
my so lelik gevloek voor my kinders, vir my kinders gesê my kinders is honger honde en die kos<br />
weggesteek. En as hy geld het dan gaan hy na ander vrouens toe. As hy nou seker nie regekom het<br />
by daai<br />
ander vroues<br />
nie, nê, dan moet ek seker wees ek gaan 'n pakslae kry vanaand. Maar ek het ook nie geweet<br />
nie hoekom kry ek altyd 'n pakslae nie. Toe't ek 'n vriendin gehad wat langs my gesit het, uh waar<br />
ek<br />
gewerk het en uh, sy het altyd vir my gesê : " Jy moet jou man los, jy kan nie laat die man vir jou<br />
so takel<br />
nie,"<br />
hy het my hare uit my kop uit getrek, hoor. En dan is my oë net so blou.<br />
1
INTERVIEWER: Dit was erg huh?<br />
ANTOINETTE: Dit was baie erg gewees. Ek het<br />
tot… deur depressie het ek gebrand. Ek het nie geweet<br />
ek het eers gebrand nie- ek sal na daai terug kom by jou. Maar toe sê ek vir die een vrou die een dag:" Ek<br />
weet<br />
nie ek… ek kan dit nie meer hou nie, my arme kinders is.. is … hulle is so vreesbevange. En die een<br />
seun<br />
het vir my gesê: "Mammie, jy bly sê jy gaan die man los en jy bly hom terug vat. Kyk wat maak hy<br />
…saam<br />
met jou. En een aand sit my seun by die trappe toe is Rashid omtrent elf jaar, uh ja, hy was elf. Hy<br />
sê vir<br />
my: " Ek gaan nie in die huis in kom nie Mammie," ek sê: " Ek praat met jou". Ek sê "Rashid as jy<br />
nie inkom nie dan weet jy dis weer ek wat gaan pak kry.(Silence).<br />
En hy vat die laaste geld, ek onhou daai aand vat hy die laaste geld hy sê hy gaan nou gaan dobbel met die<br />
vyftig<br />
rand. Dit het baie moeilik gegaan. En uh, ek sê toe vir die vrou die volgend oggend,<br />
sy sê toe vir my:<br />
"Jy beter sien dat jy die man los want hy gaan vir jou dood maak". Maar ek het nie verstaan hoekom sê sy<br />
dit vir my nie. Toe het sy 'n verhouding met hom aangehad.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sjoe, 'n vriendin van jou?<br />
ANTOI NETTE: Ja is 'n vriendin van my. En sy het pregnant geraak en uh na alles toe is dit weer een in<br />
my straat in wat hy mee uit gegaan het. As hy baklei met hulle,<br />
dan moet ek weet ek gaan pak kry. Maar<br />
ek het<br />
nooit geweet waarom gaan die bakleiry nie. You know,<br />
ek het al gevra vir hom, as ons vrede is in<br />
die huis in: "Wat is dit, wat doen ek verkeerd, sê vir my", hy sê "Nee daar's niks wat jy verkeerd doen nie.<br />
Wat<br />
meen jy?" As ek miskien loving wil wees met hom, dan vra hy vir my kom ek van my hoer-manne af.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Dit klink of dit baie confusing was vir jou.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Dit was so confusing gewees dat ek… ek het dit nie verstaan nie. Ek… ek het nie geweet<br />
eintlik<br />
wat beteken abuse nie, en ek het ook nie geweet wat beteken sexual abuse nie, you know. Ek het al<br />
gevra: " Hoekom wil jy elke aand met my slaap, wat is dit?" En toe sê hy : "Het<br />
jy dan nie geweet ek het<br />
met<br />
jou getrou net om seks met jou te hê nie?", you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Dis seer woorde.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
En…en vir my ek het die heeltyd dan huil ek net so vir drie dae aan een: "Maar hoe kan<br />
die man dit vir my sê?" Daar's partykeer nê as ek weier dan rek hy my bene<br />
oop, skeer my klere van my af,<br />
you know,<br />
en hy gebruik sulke vulgar woorde. Hy … hy kon net nie omgee<br />
nie, wie was in die rondte<br />
gewees nie. Hy het gaan staan in die middel van die<br />
straat dan vloek hy vir my, maar hy het ook altyd vir<br />
my gesê: "Ek gaan jou dood maak en die is nie jou jou<br />
huis nie". Ek het nooit geweet hy het my rêrig<br />
getrou vir materiaale dinge nie. En ek het dit nie verstaan nie!, you know. Maar soos tyd aangaan raak jy<br />
mos<br />
groter en jy deel met baie dinge en jy deel met baie verskillende mense, en toe sê ek vir myself, toe ek<br />
een-en-twintig<br />
maak, toe bid ek een oggend toe sê ek "Here ek wil uit hierdie huwelik kom, ek kan nie<br />
meer<br />
nie."<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Toe is jy al hoe lank getroud?<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Toe is ek al sewe jaar… (softly counting to herself) En uh maar dit was so moeilik, en<br />
ek het nie geweet nie, ek het gaan werk. As ek in die oggend, ek het 'n werk gekry, as ek van die werk af<br />
kom,<br />
dan toe ek uit die huis uit stap, dan moes ek in die gras in geduik het. Hy was in sy ma se kombi<br />
gewees<br />
en ek uh is was vol modder en ek was… jy weet ek was so bang vir hom gewees<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Altyd vreesbevange.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Ja, en dan sê ek "Nee man, nou moet ek hierdie werk, ek…ek kan nie werk nie. "Ek kan<br />
nie kosentreer op die werk, ek kan nie tussen mense is nie, ek…ek is bang vir mense. Ek het nie geweet wat<br />
om vir hulle te sê nie, want ek het soos 'n stupid gevoel. Want die mense het gesê: "Jy wil dan nie hoor nie.<br />
Jy hou daarvan". Maar hulle het nie verstaan nie. Hulle het nie verstaan hoe ek voel nie. Ek kon net nie<br />
…ook<br />
deel met sekere mense nie. En eendag nê het ek water opgesit, en by my sister se huis was daar mos<br />
nie ligte en electricity gewees nie, en ek sit die uh gasbottel aan met 'n pot water. Die kinders is toe weg<br />
2
skool toe. Maar toe ek uh… ek weet nie wat het gebeur, ek het my gestaan en vererg omdat ek nou op 'n<br />
gasbottel<br />
moet water sit en ek het 'n huis daar, waar daar letric is, you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Jy mis jou gemak.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Ja, hy het my uit daai omstandighede,<br />
het hy my uit gedryf …uit my uh…uh<br />
gerieflikheid<br />
vir my kinders. Hy't my daar uit getrek, you know. En ek het net daar omgekantel. En ek het seker vir meer<br />
as paar ure daar gelê, want dit was past seven toe ek wil gaan was en uh half-past- two toe kom kry ek my<br />
ek lê in die kombuis op die vloer en my gesig is taai, ek het 'n oop merk teen my kop. Ek kyk my been, my<br />
been<br />
voel seer, toe het ek lelik gebrand, ek het 'n baie lelik merk, twee merke op altwee kante van my een<br />
been<br />
en my dy been bo. En uh toe is ek weer uit. En toe skrik ek weer wakker toe die kinders kom. Toe<br />
kruip<br />
ek uit. En uh ek het in die hospital het ek regtig waar myself bykom toe kom kry ek ek lê in die<br />
hospital.<br />
En die dokter wou nie glo ek het sò gebrand. Toe sê ek: "Nee, ek het so gebrand, ek kan onthou ek<br />
het kwaad geraak.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Deur net aan dit te dink?<br />
ANTOINETTE: Deur net<br />
aan dit te dink. Hy kan dit doen. Hy, hy … wat hy aan my kinders doen, you<br />
know. My, die omstandighede van my kinders het so agteruit<br />
gegaan, huLle skool werk, want hulle was so<br />
confused, sekere dinge… Weet hulle kon, hulle kon nie verstaan nie "maar wat gaan aan nie", you know.<br />
Ek kon<br />
dit ook nie verstaan nie, ( laughs) want vir my was alles blur gewees, you know. En uh, maar soos<br />
ek sê, ek belowe jou soos tyd gaan… Ek het gebid een oggend, vir die Here gevra, toe sê ek vir Hom: " Ek<br />
glo nie ek deserve, die lewe wat ek nou lewe nie, want geen man is dit werd nie". Maar soos ek vir jou sê<br />
dit verg tyd…dit verg so tyd en krag, because jy uit vrees uit sit jy in daai huwelik.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Jy is altyd bevrees.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Dit vrees jou want jy is bang die man gaan jou dood maak, want hy het hoeveel keer het<br />
hy al vir my gedreig en hy het my al so lelik aangerand.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So jy het hom geglo.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Ek het hom geglo, dinge sal okay is, you know. Ek het al beginne glo: "Kyk hy slaan<br />
my omdat hy lief is vir my. En as hy my nie gaan slaan nie dan is hy nie meer lief vir my nie." Ek het sulke<br />
dinge<br />
beginne glo.<br />
IN TERVIEWER: Om te probeer sin maak uit die…<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
…Exactly, because ek het al geglo, dit was nou klaar al 'n gewoonte.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Is deel van die huwelik.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Is 'n deel van die huwelik, was dit toe. En uh ek sê toe, toe vir hulle ek kan nie, ek kan<br />
nie. Ja en uh ek het ook geprobeer om na kerke toe te gaan, ek het ook<br />
probeer om groot mense in<br />
te kry, maar dit het nie vir hom saak gemaak nie. Ek onthou een keer<br />
toe gaan ek uh na FAMSA toe by<br />
House<br />
of Mercy. Sister Therisa was daai jare daar. En uh dit was die tyd toe ek uit die hospital uit kom,<br />
wa t my been so gebrand het. En ek sê toe vir haar ek het uh huweliks probleme, en ek sê toe vir hom hulle<br />
wil vir hom sien daar binne. Hy sê:"I haven't got blady time<br />
to talk to nobody. " En sy sê toe vit hom:<br />
"Well, I need five minutes of your time." Hy sê" I haven't<br />
got five minutes of my time for you."En uh toe<br />
vertel sy hom, soos hulle nou praat, sê sy vir hom: "Wel nou sien ek regtig waar jy is 'n probleem, jy is nie<br />
bereid<br />
om te werk aan jou huwelik nie". Maar nog het dit nie vir my ingedring nie!, you know. Vir my het<br />
dit uh beteken " Kyk hierso, nee man, miskien is daar iets fout met my.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
En jy begin jouself question.<br />
3
ANTOINETTE: Exactly. En…en ek het regtig waar minderwaardig beginne voel.<br />
"Hoe kan ek dan die man blame?" You know. Maar soos ek vir jou sê tussen mense beweeg en dan dan<br />
sien jy dinge baie differently. En hoe mense uit die huwelike uit te kom. Ek dink toe vir myself: "Hier moet<br />
ek 'n<br />
lyn terk."En ek het besluit, ek het met my kinders gepraat, toe praat ek met hulle, toe sê ek vir hulle<br />
dit is wat ek nou gaan doen, ons is nou uit die huis uit en ek gaan skei. Maar ek kan, dit kan 'n moontlikheid<br />
is dat<br />
ek alles gaan verloor. Hy't my goedte gebrand, hy't my couche gebrand, hy't al die ander goedte<br />
verkoop.<br />
Hy't uh vir my gesê: "Jy sal nie weer in die huis in kom nie". Maar ek het so gebid en vir die Here<br />
gevra<br />
ek weet ek sal terug kom in die huis in. En uh soos tyd gaan het ek terug getrek in die huis, maar dit<br />
het so moeilik gegaan want hy't my so gethreaten. En hy't aan daai deure en daai vensters het hy kom kap.<br />
En ek het elke dag het ek agter slot en grendel het ek gebly.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So nog in vrees.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Nog in vrees. Maar ek het gesê:<br />
"Ek, ek kan nie die deure oop maak nie, want as ek<br />
nou gaan trug trek dan gaan erger dinge nog met<br />
my gebeur. Miskien kan ek sonder oё sit, miskien kan ek<br />
sonder bene sit, want hy het my al reeds al so lelik aangerand, en ek kan nie nou trug trek nie, want<br />
anderste<br />
gaan ek my kinders verloor by die einde van die dag, of my kinders gaan sonder 'n ma sit. So wat<br />
het ek toe besluit is uh, ek staan op my woord, maar dit het moeilik gegaan want daar is nou nie meer kos in<br />
die huis vir die kinders nie, you know. En ek sê toe vir myself: " Man ek sal moet iets doen, ek moet maar<br />
mense<br />
gaan join en uh sien wat ek vir myself kan doen, want as ek hier bly lê dan gaan ek niks in die huis<br />
in kry<br />
nie. Want niemand sal net kom en sê hier's 'n stukkie brood vir jou kinders nie. Maar ek sal nou<br />
definitief<br />
moet ek maar nou 'n effort maak om iets te doen. En uh, ek het toe vir Mrs Bosman hulle<br />
ontmoet<br />
en hulle het begin om die organisasie te stig wat genoem is die Crisis Centre. En uh, dit het so moeilik<br />
gegaan.<br />
En die mense het vir my gesê: " Maar hoe kan jy die werk doen, want, daar kry jy nie eers 'n<br />
salaris<br />
nie?" Toe sê ek: "At least gaan my kinders 'n stukkie brood het om te eet, you know, en miskien<br />
sal ek iets kan beteken vir die mense daar buite".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Dit was vir jou belangrik gewees?<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Dit was vir my belangrik gewees. En uh, ek het begin by Crisis Centre, en uh die mense<br />
het na my toe gekom. Dit was vir my baie maklik om met hulle te werk want ek het verstaan waarvan hulle<br />
pra at.<br />
My, my dogter het 'n, 'n kind gekry toe's sy vyftien jaar oud en toe verstaan, ek as ouer, hoe dit voel.<br />
My seuns het beginne wegloop en toe verstaan ek as sulke tipe ouers na my toe kom met probleme van<br />
seuns. My seun het beginne dagga rook, ek het verstaan as sulke ouers<br />
na my toe kom, hoe dit voel.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So jy kon jou ervaaring gebruik het?<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Ek kon, ek gebruik dit vir die volgende persoon, en uh, baie van hulle het met my gepraat<br />
van van hoe was hulle seksueel afgerem van hul mans af. Ek kon saam met die vrouens praat, ek kon vir<br />
hulle<br />
sê hoe het ek daar uit gekom en dit is nie reg nie, you know. Baie het vir my gesê hulle voel uh, uh as<br />
die man hulle nie slaan nie dan is hy nie lief vir hulle nie. Ek kon saam met hulle praat, because ek het<br />
dieselfde gevoel, you know, en hoe ek daar uit gekom het. Ek het vir hulle verduidelik : "Jy moet maar net<br />
'n lyn trek en jy moet maar net voorentoe gaan, want as jy daar bly lê, dan<br />
gaan niemand niks vir jou<br />
beteken nie. Want dit het so aangegaan, dit was omtrent sestien, agtien jaar het dit maar so aangegaan, you<br />
know.<br />
En uh ek is nou op die oomblik, vier jaar is ek geskei en daai selfde man van my, hy kom na Crisis<br />
Centre<br />
toe met sy probleme en met sy girlfriend se probleme, en met sy kinders se probleme wat hy het,<br />
en uh ek is niemand by die einde van die dag nie en hy is iemand. Ek moet die gevoel wat hy gedoen het<br />
aan my… ek het dit uitgewis, deur te gaan vir counselling en eers self aan my te werk , voor ek vir iemand<br />
kon counsel. Jy kan nie!, die werk doen nie as dit nie gedeel was met jou nie. En uh, dit is eintlik die<br />
moeilike<br />
part van als, because jy word opgelei want daai vyande van jou daar buitekant gaan ook nog na<br />
jou toe kom. Wat gaan jy maak? Gaan jy hulle verstoot?, Gaan jy jou gevoelens een kant toe kan stoot?<br />
Wat<br />
gaan jy maak? En dit is, ek dink dit is die moeilikste part. Dit is eintlik 'n test, 'n trial wat jy moet deur<br />
gaan<br />
om dan met daai persoon te werk wat jou so lelik aangerand het.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
En kon jy dit doen Antoinette?<br />
4
ANTOINETTE: Ek kon dit maklik doen! Because why ek het deur counselling gegaan, ek het deur mense<br />
beweeg,<br />
en uh dit was toe maklik vir my. Maar dit het tyd gevat, dit het tyd gevat, so… Maar die kinders<br />
by die einde van die dag het 'n groot knou weer gehad. Dit is hoekom baie ouers voel hulle moet in die<br />
huwelik<br />
in bly, deur die kinders… hulle vat die verkeerde rigting, hulle wil nie weer skool toe gaan nie,<br />
hulle<br />
skoolwerk gaan agteruit en hulle verstaan hulle self nie by die einde van die dag nie.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So hoe het jy self gemaak met jou kinders?<br />
AN TOINETTE: Met my kinders het ook ingetree vir counselling. Hulle is nou nie 'n honderd persent soos<br />
uh ek hulle graag wil hê nie, maar die ergste wat hulle deur gemaak het, het oor<br />
gewaai. Hulle verstaan<br />
sekere<br />
dinge, en deur uitgaan om hulp te gaan kry. Jy moet uitgaan, jy kan nie daar bly lê nie, want as jy<br />
bly lê dan gaan daar erger dinge gebeur. En dit uh, ek wil vir jou sê, dit is baie moeilik, you know, om oor<br />
dit te kom.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Maar jy het?<br />
ANT OINETTE: Ek het oor dit gekom. Ek voel goed. Ek voel goed om mense te kan help. En uh ongeag<br />
of ek 'n voluntary werker is, ek is 'n vrywillige<br />
werker, ek is vier-en twintig uur is ek op stand- by, in die<br />
oggend begin ek half- past eight to four o'clock<br />
in die middag in, en uh ek geniet dit so, because as ek een<br />
goeie<br />
ding gedoen het vir die dag, al gee ek net vir iemand 'n snytjie brood en al hug ek iemand om vir daai<br />
iemand<br />
te sê :"Jy is special and the Lord loves you"- that's very important, because out there kan jy so baie<br />
beteken<br />
vir baise mense van ons wat voel net om met iemand te kan praat. Vir my in die verlede in was<br />
daar,<br />
daar was niemand vir my nie. So dit is hoekom ek daar wil wees, ek weet ek sal nie almal kan help<br />
nie. Maar just because to be there, just to let them know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So wat was jou oplossing toe. Daar was niemand om mee te praat nie. Wat het jy<br />
gedoen?<br />
ANTOINETTE: Uh, wat ek gedoen het, ek het beginne lees, ek het het beginne met voluntary werk, you<br />
kno w en uh ek het na mense toe gegaan wat uit huwelike uit kom, maar hulle kon nie eintlik vir my 'n goeie<br />
antwoord<br />
gee nie. Ek het maar self besluit: "Dit baat nie ek gaan na ander mense toe nie, ek moet uitkom.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sê vir my van die antwoord wat jy gesoek het.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Uh die antwoord wat ek gesoek het, was uh ek kan nie vir jou verduidelik nie, was so<br />
moeilik.<br />
Dit was so moeilik. Die antwoorde was uh: "As ek uit kom, sou ek miskien lewendig daar uit<br />
kom?<br />
As ek daar uit kom, sou dit vir my<br />
'n beter mens gemaak het? Wat sou ek vir my kinders kan<br />
beteken?" Maar omdat ek aangehou het en nie opgegee het nie, het dit vir my baie beteken aan die einde<br />
van die dag . Daar's so baie dinge wat ek, jy weet dit kom eintlik stuk stuk by my dis<br />
wat ek kan onthou,<br />
want baie dinge is al klaar ek het ek kan nie weer baie dinge onthou nie, hoe ek oor<br />
dit gekom het. Maar die<br />
belangrikste van alles is, ek het nie daar bly lê nie, dit het regtig waar krag gevat om daar uit te kom, maar<br />
ek het uit gekom, baie moeilik, dit het… baie moeilik het ek daar uit gekom. Ek het gevoel soos ek is 'n<br />
stupid<br />
en ek is nou alleen, en ek het nie weer 'n man by my nie, en almal het nou daai wat hulle sê ek is die<br />
slegte<br />
een. Baie vrouens moet een ding onthou: "As jy uit 'n huwelik uit stap dan gaan daar nie goeie dinge<br />
gesê<br />
word van jou nie".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Dis interesant, ek meen daar was ander mense wat jou encourage het om uit te kom,<br />
maar<br />
toe jy uit kom…<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Ja! As jy uit kom dan gaan daar baie mense is wat negatiewe dinge van jou te sê het, you<br />
know. Want dan uh, uh dan sê hulle nie die man was sleg nie, dan gaan hulle sê jy was sleg. Om dan in<br />
jouself<br />
te kan bewys, nie die mense te kan bewys nie, you have to get up there and do something for<br />
yourself,<br />
you know, and your children.<br />
Want as jy aan jouself begin ….(silence).<br />
5<br />
Comment [HK1]:
INTERVIEWER: …Jy moet by jouself begin.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Exactly, jy moet by jouself begin, because<br />
why jy kan nie iets doen omdat jy uh die<br />
mense<br />
wil please nie, aan die einde van die dag gaan mense maar nog altyd iets hê om te sê. Baie lelike<br />
dinge<br />
het om van jou te sê, maar om goed te voel moet jy by jouself begin. You have to pick up the pieces<br />
somehow.<br />
Dis amper soos puzzles, ongeag wie sê wat, you know, then you have to start from there. Because<br />
sometimes<br />
is daar een puzzle wat jy nie weet waar hy in fit nie en dit gaan baie tyd vat om daai puzzle dan<br />
by die regte plek in te sit . En daai leemte sal daar… en die ander ding is nê al uit weg nê is maar net om<br />
die<br />
toevlug<br />
na die Here toe te vat, because sometimes people is going to give you crisis but you have to give<br />
them Christ by the end of the day, want jy kan niks doen sonder Hom nie.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Jou geloof was baie belangrik vir jou.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Dit was baie belangrik vir my en uh ek is ek kan net al die eer en die lof en die prys met<br />
die Here toe dien is al, want as dit nie deur Hom was nie nê dan wil ek vir jou<br />
sê sou ek nie daar uit gekom<br />
het ni e. So jy kan maar vergeet. Jy kan alles doen, ongeag watter religion jy behoort, you know, as jy nie<br />
jou toevlug na die Here toe neem nie, jy kan maar maak wat jy wil, jy sal nie daar kan uit kom nie, want<br />
baie dinge gaan jy nog aan vasklou en Hy kom en hy was alles weg en die fokus is vir die toekoms en vir<br />
jou kinders.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So jy voel, dis belangrik om sekere dinge weg te was om aan te gaan.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Jy<br />
moet aangaan. There's no way, maar jy kan dit ook nie net weg was nie en begrawe<br />
nie. You<br />
have to deal<br />
with it, sien jy? Dit is hoekom jy na counselling toe gaan, inner healing, jy, jy moet<br />
dit kry- jy kan nie by-pass dit nie, because its like a generation of genaration, dis amper soos iets wat van<br />
daai<br />
jare<br />
af kom, because as jy mooi kom kry, jou oumagrootjie het miskien deur dieselfde ding gegaan.<br />
Jy's<br />
like, jy's attractive to abusive men, you know. Dit is hoekom ons vrouens baie versigtig moet wees vir<br />
dit.<br />
Jy sal dink die man uh is nou so 'n nice mens, maar hy is nie want somehow gaan hy abusive is met jou,<br />
because<br />
daai links is daar.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sê vir my van being attractive to abusive men.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Uh, uh, julle… hy weet , hy lyk hy, hy kan vir jou…<br />
INTERVIEWER: …Hy kan dit sense?<br />
ANTOINETTE: Hy kan dit sien, hy kan dit sense, dis iets in jou in wat,… jy aanvaar<br />
sekere dinge, jy is, is<br />
amper soos jy is ja vir alles en " no, it, it's okay". As hy iets miskien lelik vir jou gesê<br />
het nê, dan het uit sy<br />
mond uit geglip, dan sê jy : "nee is allright". En dis is hoekoem jy so abusive is, sonder dat<br />
jy bewus is van<br />
dit kry jy so abusive uh, uh mans en dit is hoekom jy partykeer seer kry nie net een keer<br />
nie. Jy kry nie net<br />
een keer seer nie, jy kry meer as een keer seer. So aan die einde van die dag moet jy vir jouself, jy moet 'n<br />
lyn trek. En jy kan net ontslae raak van al die dinge ontslae raak as jy jou toevlug na die Here toe neem, you<br />
hav e to go through Christ, that's the only thing you have to go through the Lord. There is no way that you<br />
can say you can survive (silence)..<br />
En…<br />
en ek het ook dit nie verstaan nie, maar toe ek baie vriende ontmoet toe is dit dieselfde, dit is basies<br />
dieselfde<br />
ding. Jy gaan uit die een huwelik na die ander, van die een verhouding na die ander en dus hulle,<br />
hulle<br />
change nie, hoor todat hulle nie hulleself behandel nie. Jy kan maar toe maak en tel because jy kan<br />
nie 'n man verander nie. En niemand kan 'n vrou verander nie. Daai vrou moet haarself, sy moet met<br />
haarself<br />
beginne werk, 'n inner healing moet sy kry, verstaan jy. So, jy kan nie vir my sê nie iemand anders<br />
het jou gechange nie. Jy moet 'n stap voorentoe sit. Jy kan net nie daar bly lê nie, want as jy daar bly lê dan<br />
gaan<br />
jy 'n hobo word. Jy gaan jou self be… by die einde van die dag gaan jy jouself gaan begin verkoop.<br />
Because omdat jy sekere dinge nie verstaan nie.<br />
Baie van die vrouens wil nie daar uit kom nie en saam met<br />
ander<br />
vrouens koppe gaan meng nie, of na organisasies toe gaan en gaan vra: "Wat kan ek doen nie?" Al<br />
wat<br />
baie van die vrouens doen is as jy met hulle praat dan sê hulle "Hoeveel betaal hulle vir jou?"<br />
6
INTERVIEWER: So jy voel hulle het nog nie by daai punt gekom waar hulle verstaan dit kom van my af<br />
nie.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Exactly! You know, hulle, hulle verstaan dit nog nie so mooi nie. Want hulle…Hulle<br />
weier,<br />
party<br />
van hulle weier, hulle lewe nog in 'n denial stage. Dit… soos ek vir jou sê, dit vat baie tyd. Ons<br />
is nie<br />
almal dieselfde nie, en uh ons kan ook nie verwag dat die volgende een soos ons is nie, but we must<br />
never<br />
give up on women like that. Jy moet daar is. Jy moet een ding onthou, daar is manne wat ook geabuse<br />
word<br />
deur vrouens en vir daai man om op te staan om uit te kom hy voel net seker sy manlike deel word<br />
van hom weggeskeer, hoe kan hy uit kom, want tog word daar baie mans geabuse .<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Antoinette, dit klink of jy 'n baie balanced view het. Jy weet, dit klink of jy probeer<br />
om<br />
fair te wees.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
No, I'm very fair. I'm very fair. En weet jy hoe, hoe kry jy dit reg? As jy as jy by jouself<br />
beg in en dan staan jy agteruit en dan kyk jy wat daar buite gebeur. Nou die ding wat met my verlede<br />
gebeur het,<br />
as ek miskien<br />
dit gedoen het dan sal ek die antwoord kan kry vir die persoon, as ek miskien dit<br />
doen<br />
sal ek die antword daar kry of miskien as ek vir daai man dit doen dan sal ek …die antwoord vir hom<br />
sal dit wees. But jy moet amper soos uh… 'n paar tree agteruit staan om dit ten volle…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Om die volle picture te kry?<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Yes, om dit te kan sien. So aan by die einde van die dag as jy wil die werk doen moet jy<br />
een ding<br />
onhou daar's nie kant kies ook nie. You have to be fair, maar jy sal nie fair is nie as jy nie met<br />
jouself kan deel nie. You have to start with yourself. En daar is<br />
niks verkeerd met jou nie, hoor. As jy dink<br />
daar is iets verkeerd met jou gewees omdat die man jou so aangerand<br />
het of jou so geabuse het, daar's niks<br />
fout<br />
met jou nie. So jy hoef nie vir jouself te bejammer nie of die blame op jou te sit nie, because there was<br />
nothing<br />
wrong with you.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Wanneer begin 'n mens dit te glo dat daar is, eintlik is daar nie iets fout met jou nie?<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Man is die… is partykeer ander vrouens het partykeer een oog, jy gaan so deur baie<br />
dinge,<br />
daar is so lang ding wat jy moet deur gaan, so ek kannie, kannie eintlik vir jou sê nie. Partykeer skrik<br />
jy uit<br />
'n diep slaap uit baie vinnig wakker, vir anders vat dit jare. Vir my het dit baie jare gevat voor ek dit<br />
kon besef.<br />
So…dit is baie moeilik, ek moet dit vir jou sê. Omdat dit vat soveel tyd om in daai spieël te gaan<br />
kyk en whatever is going to reflect back to you, it will never lie to you. Because that woman in that looking<br />
gla ss,… that depression, that hurt, that fear, that bitterness, that anger! And… and yet your so beautiful.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Is 'n klomp emosies wat jy moet aanstaar.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Exactly! And that reality because that's the truth. Wat jy moet daar in sien, as jy in daai<br />
spieël<br />
in kyk en jy het 'n puisie in jou gesig in, die spieël gaan nie leuns vertel vir jou nie. Die spieël gaan<br />
vir jou wys daai puisie is daar en daai puisie lyk nou so. En dit is die expression in your face, in your eyes.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Wat het jy ges ien toe jy in die spieël kyk?<br />
ANTOINETTE: Ek het baie, ek was baie confuse gehad, my eyes. My oë het<br />
dit gesê. Jy kon dit sommer<br />
op my gesig sien. And the answer is : "What are you going to do about it. Are you going to sit down, lie<br />
backwards<br />
and not do anything or are you going to do something. En ek het besluit : "Ek gaan uit …nie<br />
langer<br />
as dit nie".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So is nie net 'n matter van facing realities…<br />
ANTOINETTE: No it is much more deeper than facing reality. You can face<br />
reality, but if you didn't<br />
decide<br />
this is what you're going to do, this is what you want to do. This must be from inside. You have to<br />
make…decide<br />
yourself, not somebody to decide for you. Ander mense gaan jou nie alles sê…jy raak so<br />
7
confuse dat jy ook nie eens weet aan die einde van die dag nie: "Wat praat die mense? Praat hulle regte<br />
goedte<br />
of, you know. En by die einde van die dag was dit: "Ag is ook maar net een van daai praatjies".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So jy het nie weer geglo nie.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Ek het niemand weer geglo nie. En ek sal ook vir<br />
jou self sê, dit was moeilik. But you<br />
have to get<br />
out there. Jy moet vir jouself kan sê: "As ek nie nou hier kan uit gaan nie, want as ek daai deur<br />
weer<br />
oop maak en daai man toelaat om in te kom, dan's dit neuse verby, want jy mag miskien nie weer 'n<br />
tweede<br />
kans kry nie".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Antoinette, dit klink of jy nog steeds baie emosioneel is oor die hele ding.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Ek raak emosioneel as ek dink, nê, hoekom het ek nie die dinge vroeër raak gesien<br />
nie,…dan<br />
was ek van hulp vroeër vir die volgende persoon.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Dit klink of jy frustreerd is, kwaad is vir jouself.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Ja, want as ek dit miskien vroeër kon raak gesien het, dan<br />
was… dan kon ek baie mense<br />
geh elp het, maar dan sê ek ook aan die ander kant vir myself as ek miskien dit vroeër raak gesien het, dan<br />
was ek nog nie reg om ander mense te help nie. En uh… ek was so gebrei en gekap, dat<br />
niemand gehoor<br />
het<br />
nie.<br />
Dis amper soos bytels, hammers, grawe, sae, wat gekap was, sonder dat niemand hoor en sien, die Here<br />
my so voorberei het. Toe't Hy geweet ek is nou reg nou, verstaan jy. En ek … ek glo aan elke ding het 'n<br />
tyd,<br />
you know, en ek dink dit is my tyd gewees wat dit moet geëindig het, sodat ek nou iets kan beteken vir<br />
die volgende<br />
mens. Sodat ek uh…uh vir jou kan sê: "Nee man, jy kan dit so hanteer of jy kan dit so<br />
hanteer".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So daai ervaaring, so seer en so negatief as wat dit was, beteken vir jou vandag iets?<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Dit beteken vir my so…is…is so …I value it, I treasure it, you know, because as ek nie<br />
deur<br />
dit gegaan het nie, ek sou niks beteken het vir die volgende persoon nie. Baie mense sal dink: "Oh, sy<br />
pra at nonsence man, daai is stupidtigheid, waar kan 'n mens so… eers deur al die goedte" ek het het deur dit<br />
gegaan,<br />
yes, dit was seer, dit was bitter, maar die Here het 'n doel gehad hoekom ek deur dit moes gegaan<br />
het.<br />
Want anders dan sou ek nie verstaan het nie hoe om met sekere mense te deel nie. Ek moes deur al daai<br />
dinge<br />
gaan, ek moes verstaan het hoe voel dit as 'n man dagga rook, uh…uh alkohol, drug addict,<br />
alchoholist-<br />
ek, ek moes deur daai dinge gegaan het sodat as ander mense in die toekoms na my toe kom,<br />
dan weet ek presies wat om vir daai persoon te sê, ek weet hoe voel dit, want my man het al daai dinge<br />
gedoen.<br />
Hy het gedrink, hy't dagga gerook, hy't mandrax gebruik, hy't nie gewerk, hy't my geld gesteel en<br />
die kinders het nie melk gehad om te drink nie, en, en klere verkoop, hy't die huis se goed beginne verkoop,<br />
weet<br />
en al sulke goed.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So in addition to daai physical abuse was daar baie ander abuse wat aangegaan het.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Baie ander abuse, you know, jy moenie dink daar is net physical abuse nie, sexual abuse,<br />
emotional<br />
abuse, finacially en alles daai en dan's dit nog alcohol abuse, drug abuse en daai is alles on top<br />
of everything,<br />
en…en vandag is ek, ek is regtig waar nie spuit. Uh …uh miskien klink dit baie stupid<br />
(smiling)<br />
om so te sê. Ek is nie spuit ek het deur dit te gegaan nie, want uh… ek het daar uit gekom, ek het<br />
so firm daar uit gekom, want ek het gesê nou gaan ek nie terug nie. So dit<br />
is hoe ek voel. Want dit klink vir<br />
jou,<br />
miskien ek voel baie… Daar's so baie dinge wat ek miskien nou oorslaan, die tyd, die dae, die maande.<br />
Daar's<br />
so baie ander dinge wat jy uitmis, wat jy miskien wil gesê het vir mense, you know. Maar dan kom<br />
dit so stukkie, stukkies, want ek werk elke dag met gevalle van domestic violence en dan is dit preseis<br />
dieselfde.<br />
En, en ek wil vir jou sê, al daai dinge wat die vrouens deurgaan het ek al reeds deur gegaan. So<br />
dit is different abuses. En jy kry daai wat hulle sê dinge vir jou, emotional abuse, en dit wat hulle vir jou sê<br />
maak<br />
so seer, hulle besef nie eers hulle maak jou seer nie. En net een woord wat 'n man vir jou sê maak<br />
alles<br />
dood…dan's dinge nie weer dieselfede nie, al probeer hy wat, dinge sal nooit weer dieselfde is nie, net<br />
deur<br />
een woord wat hy vir jou gesê het nie. Die liefde is ook nie meer dieselfde nie, niks voel weer<br />
8
dieselfde nie. Maar jy gaan maar net aan vir die sake van die kinders, jy't nie bly plek nie, as ek hier uit<br />
gaan<br />
waar gaan ek my kop neer sit vir my kinders… So ek kan aan en aan en aan praat because why dit is<br />
elke sekonde van die dag moet jy deur gaan as daai man nie werk nie. En as daar nie geld is vir dagga nie,<br />
dan kry jy pak, jy kry pak, jy gaan deur loop. Al moet ek die laaste brood geld vat om vir hom te gee om<br />
daai<br />
boxie dagga te gaan koop vir hom, net dat daar vrede in die huis moet wees. Net dat jy ook daai peace<br />
of mind<br />
vir daai dag kan het vir jouself. Ek het all gaan werk by BBH Hospital voordat ek tracing en<br />
accounts<br />
gedoen het. Ek praat nou bietjie baie deurmekaar, ek onthou bietjie stuk, stuk, sien jy. Ek onthou<br />
toe hulle gestrike het in ninety-two by BBH Hospital, daai tyd toe was dit nog BBH Hospital, het ek begin<br />
as 'n<br />
cleaner. Ek het gevoel, as ek by die huis sit, wie gaan vir my kinders omsien? Ek moet iets doen.<br />
Daar's<br />
nie werk nie, maar iets moet ek doen. En dit gaan ook nie net om dit nie, ek wil ook goed voel, ek<br />
wil tussen mense beweeg ek….ek wil uit dit uitkom…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Dis belangrik om iets te beteken vir iemand.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Exactly! Ek het die vloere geskrop met daai groot mops daar, ek sê vir jou en daai<br />
vrie nde van my, daar waar ek altyd mee gewerk het, hulle het gekom: "Het julle gesien, het julle gesien<br />
An toinette<br />
is 'n cleaner by die hospital", you know en "Het julle gesien sy maak die toilets skoon". Vir my<br />
het dit nie meer saak gemaak nie, want ek wou iets vir myself beteken het. Ek het iets aan myself bewys,<br />
nie aan iemand anders nie. En een dag toe ek nog so die toilet pot skoon maak, toe voel ek 'n tap op my<br />
linker<br />
skouer. En toe is dit die superintendent, Mr van der Merwe, hy was nog daai tyd by BBH Hospital.<br />
En hy sê "Mevrou Reynders, kan jy asseblief na die kantoor toe, die personeel kantoor toe kom". Ek sê<br />
goed<br />
Meneer, ek haal toe my handskoene af ek sit dit een kant, ek vee my hande af en ek sit die goedte in<br />
die skottel in en hulle sê toe vir my: "Ons het nou vir jou 'n ander werk gekry, jy gaan in die kantoor werk<br />
nou".<br />
En uh ek het nie geweet wat om vir hom te antwoord nie, al wat ek vir hom… ek vra vir hom: " Nou<br />
hoekom<br />
meneer". Vir my was dit nog nie waar nie, you know, uh uit 'n cleaner uit, uit 'n toilet pot uit,<br />
(laughing)<br />
uh…uh you know, kry jy 'n verhoging, jy werk in die kantore in, tracing en accounts, you know<br />
it was<br />
like…'n lig gaan oop vir my.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
En jy was nog steeds in die huwelik?<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Ek was nog steeds in die huwelik ninety-two. En dit is voor ek uit die werk uit is. Ek is<br />
uit die werk uit, uit vrees…uit vrees toe moet ek mos toe nou… ek was permanent aangestel gewees.<br />
Hu lle<br />
gee my toe verhoging, ek gaan werk toe met die dokter se income tax en wat moet deur kom, as daar<br />
fout e gaan en dinge soos daai. Ek was toe gelink saam met die dokters, dit was toe my werk. Ek het 'n goeie<br />
posisie gehad, en dit was toe permanent.Maar ongelukkig nê, toe moes ek<br />
my werk opgee, want toe<br />
threaten hy vir my en daai fear (clapping her hands together) bounced back into my life.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So daar was 'n period waar jy opgestaan het en weer…<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
En hy't my neer gegooi. En ek moes gehardloop het, duck and dive, sien ek toe nie 'n<br />
kombi<br />
aankom nie, en dinge soos daai. Maar dit het nie, ek het weer, ek het gebrand na daai. Ek het<br />
opgestaan<br />
en aan gegaan. Tot die egskeiding deur is en ek het my huis gekry en ek het terug in my huis<br />
ingetrek,<br />
vir die mense was dit: "Hoe kan die vrou trug kom na die huis toe, die man gaan die vrou dood<br />
maak". My vriendin oor die pad vr a: "Sien ek reg of wat, is daai vrou mal, daai man gaan haar dood kom<br />
maak". Toe staan ek met my wit gown, satin gown, (smiling) ek sal nooit vergeet daar op my<br />
stoep en ek<br />
waai vir almal : "Goeie môre, hoe gaan dit?" Is dit jy Antoinette" Ek sê: " Ja hoe gaan dit man?"<br />
Toe kan<br />
ek weer lag. Toe moet ek vir die Here sê dankie. En niemand wil my gegelo het nie.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Maar jy het oorwin?<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Ja, niemand wil my geglo het nie, verstaan jy?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Antoinette, sê my van die laaste insident voor jy geloop het.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Die laaste voor ek geloop het was uh, my broer het met my kom praat en toe sê hy vir<br />
my<br />
my man was daar gewees en hy't gesê hy soek my trug, en uh toe het ek klaar gebrand al, my been is toe<br />
al<br />
9
geswel.<br />
INTERVIEWER: En jy's toe nog nie geskei nie.<br />
AN TOINETTE:<br />
Nee, ek was nog nie geskei nie. En uh ek vra wat moet ek by die huis gaan maak. En hy<br />
sê : " Antoinette, gee jou man nog 'n kans". Ek sê "Ek het die man al soveel kanse gegee, julle was nie daar<br />
nie, julle verstaan nie", you know. En hy sê "Antoinette gee hom nog 'n kans". Die laaste kans was amper<br />
my dood. Toe ek die eerste aand daar slaap en hy en ons toe seksueel verkeer, toe sê hy vir my: "Jy't<br />
gehoer<br />
met ander manne, en uh hy't uitgestap, en hy't in dieselfde straat in met 'n ander vrou uitgegaan en<br />
daar<br />
gaan slaap, die oggend trug gekom. Daai oggend toe slaan hy vir my so. Toe smyt hy die fridge, die<br />
wasmasjien<br />
uit en toe steek hy dit stukkend met die tuinfurk nê toe jaag hy vir my. Oorkant die pad het<br />
my vriendin my toegesluit in haar huis in en uh toe het hy die kos en alles uit gesmyt, alles, alles het hy uit<br />
gesmyt.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Dit nadat hy gesoebat het dat jy trug kom.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Nadat hy gesoebat het… hy wil my dood gemaak het. En uh toe het sy die polisie gebel<br />
en uh toe ek amper 'n heart attack gekry het en die helikopter moes my kom haal<br />
het, uh techni cardiac<br />
het ek<br />
onwikkel. En toe sê die dokter vir my hulle weet nie of ek dit sal maak,<br />
want ek sal dit nie kan maak<br />
met die ambulance na Jo'burg Gen toe nie. So hulle moes my met die helikopter vat, so erg was dit.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So jy't letterlik aangehang vir jou lewe.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Ja, ek het aangehang en dit was vir die sake van my kinders, want ek het vir die Here<br />
gesê:<br />
"Ek sal hier opstaan, ek sal iets beteken vir die volgende mens. Spaar my, gee my net nog net die een<br />
kans". En Hy't my daai kans gegee. Ek het uit gekom, ek het 'n slight stroke<br />
gehad. Ek het omtrent so vir<br />
ses maande<br />
…en ek het gefight teen dit. Ek het gefight teen dit en gesê hier<br />
moet ek uit kom, ek kannie hier<br />
bly lê nie! Uit kom moet ek uit kom. En ek belowe jou ek het uit dit uit gekom. Soos ek vir jou sê daar is<br />
so baie ander dinge wat jy maar stuk stuk onthou, jy praat daaroor as iemand kom praat oor iets en dan<br />
onthou<br />
jy nou ek het deur dieselfde ding gegaan, you know. Maar daai was die moeilikste en daai was die<br />
laaste.<br />
Daai was nou die ergste en dit was die laaste…toe my kinders my amper verloor het. En ek het gesê<br />
no more turning back…dit is wat ek nog kan onhou…en ons is nou nog daar. Hy kom nou na my toe met<br />
sy probleme en dan kom sê hy vir my dat hy en sy girlfriend wat hy mee is het probleme of hy en sy<br />
kinders<br />
het probleme en ek help hulle, ek help vir hom. Ek help hulle met 'n goeie hart. I don't hate him, I<br />
used<br />
to hate the things that he used to do to me, but not him. Want as jy aanhou verbitterd, you have to, jy<br />
moet<br />
wegbreek van daai punt af, moet jy wegbreek, because anderste sal jy nooit iets beteken vir iemand<br />
anders<br />
nie. Die beste manier om deur dit te gaan is om deur counselling te gaan.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Antoinette jy het vroeër gesê jy het, jy weet jy het tussen mense beweeg en jy't om jou<br />
gekyk<br />
en jy het dieselfde goed sien gebeur, wat maak jy van dit? Hoe werk dit.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Ja, die tyd toe ek so tussen hulle beweeg nê, en sien wat aangaan, ek het nou baie gepraat<br />
maar<br />
en dan raak ek ook baie emosioneel. En ek het baie hard begin raak. Ek het baie mans begin haat. Ek<br />
het onbeskof beginne raak. As enige mans met my praat dan lyk dit ek het daai, ek kan die man nou dood<br />
ma ak.<br />
Jy raak so hard, you know. Jy raak so verbitterd teenoor hulle. Maar soos ek vir jou sê toe ek tussen<br />
mense<br />
beweeg en toe vra ek vir myself: "Hoe kan ek van hulp wees vir ander mense". " Wat kan 'n mens<br />
doen?"<br />
En ek het besluit om uit te gaan daar. En ek het gegaan, ek het gegaan vir kursus. En that is why I<br />
do t his. En ek is bly ek kan baie doen vir baie vrouens en vir baie mans en baie kinders, ek doen dit vir<br />
kinders<br />
omdat my kinders so deur baie dinge gegaan het. My een seun was betas gewees by 'n boarding<br />
skool<br />
en ek sit nou nog met daai probleem, hy vertrou niemand eers om sy sustertjies nie en hy is twee-entwintig.<br />
So, weet mens gaan deur baie moeilike dinge, but you have to get out there. Dis al wat ek kan sê.<br />
You have to get out there, you have to start with yourself, dis al wat ek kan sê.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Antoinette hoe dink jy wat'se rol speel kultuur, "Kleurling", speel dit 'n rol in abuse,<br />
waar<br />
pas dit in?<br />
10
ANTOINETTE: Ek dink, Kleurling, dit lyk so vir my dat die Kleurlinge is so uh, hulle is gebore met die<br />
abuse<br />
sal ek sê. Because hoekom is dit dan hulle kan verskriklik lelik vloek. Hulle, hulle gee nie om hoe<br />
hulle<br />
met jou praat nie vernaam in public. Nou weet ek nie is dit omdat hulle oumagroeitjies of se groeitjies<br />
of wat, hulle was baie geabuse. Dit is 'n link ding wat doer jare aankom, en dit, dit is oorgedra. Dis 'n curse<br />
wat<br />
oorgedra is van generation tot generation. Kyk ons almal Kleurlinge kom van een generation af. Dit<br />
kom van daar af. En dit is uh, uh, ek dink die Kleurling nasie is 'n baie verbitterde nasie. Die Swartes se<br />
abuse<br />
is eintlik different met ons se abuse. Kyk is like hulle culture, hulle word groot gemaak hulle moet 'n<br />
man<br />
obey. Jy weet, daai ek werk met die gevalle, is 'n like hulle betaal lobolla. Kyk onse mense kry alles te<br />
maklik<br />
reg. Onse manne het net gekom, gevat en getrou. En so jy is my vrou. Vir hulle is like you are my<br />
property<br />
en hulle is, hulle is 'n baie dominerende nasie, so dit lyk is in hulle in, man. Want die meerderheid<br />
van die mans, baie van die pastore is dieselfde, baie van die mense wat in die kerke is, is dieselfde, alle die<br />
rasse,<br />
even slamse is dieselfde, you know. So ek kannie vir jou sê, dit, dit…party van hulle is beter as die<br />
ander<br />
ene nie. So which means dit kom maar van daai jare af.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So, jy dink dis iets wat in ons is.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Ek dink is, is in ons in. En ons het 'n pride in ons in. Ek wil<br />
jou sê Kleurlinge het 'n baie<br />
groot pride in hulle. Some of them, hulle kan liewerste sit met daai<br />
ding, hulle kan liewerste so dood gaan<br />
in daai, because "Wie is sy, ek gaan nie na haar toe nie, sy is nie beter<br />
nie, sy het dan net so 'n lewe gehad",<br />
you know. Maar hulle weet nie is daar, daar is die strength dan.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Die waarde.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Daar is dan die stuk goud, ek kan goud van die vrou af kry vir<br />
my toekoms, you know.<br />
Ne t omdat<br />
hulle weet daai vrou het so deur hel gegaan in haar verlede. En as jy die werk doen dan verstaan<br />
hul le nie wat gaan hulle uit jou uit kry nie.<br />
En dit is so groot hulp vir jou.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Het jy deur dit gegaan.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Ek het deur dit gegaan.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ek meen die tyd toe jy moet vra vir hulp, het jy ook daai attitude gehad.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Ek het daai attitude, ja ek het dit gehad.<br />
Is like reject, that, that attitude.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Is dit soos in as ons seer kry dan stoot ons mense weg?<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Weg ja, as mense wil help of even jy moet uitgaan vir dit. Iemand wat jou nou sal help en<br />
dat "Wat,<br />
wat weet jy, wat sal jy vir my kan vertel, lyk jou goedte is beter, jy gaan dan deur dieselfde ding".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So, dink jy dit is uniek aan Kleurlinge?<br />
ANTOINETTE: Dis uniek aan Kleurlinge. Dus definitief uniek aan Kleurlinge, even as jou kinders<br />
miskien iets verkeerd gedoen het en ek wil iets doen om jou kind te help, voel jy dat my kinders is dan nie<br />
beter<br />
nie, so hoe kan ek vir jou help. En ek wil jou vandag sê, dat onse kinders luister liewer na iemand<br />
anders<br />
as wat hulle na ons luister. So as ek nie van hulp gaan wees vir jou, vir jou kinders nie, hoe gaan jy<br />
van hulp<br />
vir my kinders. Ons moet daai beginne aanvaar, ons moet daar is vir mekaar se kinders, ons moet<br />
daar<br />
is vir mekaar, ons moet mekaar kan oplig in ons omstandighede.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Dit lyk of jy praat van 'n soort van unity…<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Exactly, ons moet regtig waar uit dit uit kom, en daai proudness van die "Kleurlinge",<br />
ons<br />
moet-<br />
tipiese Kleurlinge, regtig waar!<br />
INTEERVIEWER:<br />
Dit klink of jy baie kwaad voel daaroor.<br />
11
ANTOINETTE: Ek is baie kwaad vir die ras, en hulle sê nou ons is almal Swart, maar ek sê vir jou ons<br />
lewe<br />
nog in daai in ons is "Kleurlinge". Baie van ons weier as iemand vir ons sê: " Ja jy is Swart". Ons<br />
kleef<br />
nog aan daai so called Coloured vas, that is why we are sitting with this problem.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Dit hou ons agter?<br />
ANTOINETTE: Exatly, ons kan net los en aangaan<br />
or ons kan aanhou en aan kleef aan daai Kleurling<br />
maniere van ons of ways wat ons het or we can let go -iets kan beteken vir mekaar, want jy gaan nooit iets<br />
beteken<br />
vir iemand nie, as jy gaan nog aan vas hou aan daai nie. Ek raak baie vies as ek aan dit dink.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Uhm, ek kan dit sien.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Ek is baie keer en dan, you know. Ek gaan nie eers<br />
baie uit met my eie ras nie. En deur dit<br />
maak dit my, het dit my so verbitterd gemaak om met 'n<br />
Kleurling man uit te gaan. Ek wil dit vir jou sê. Ek<br />
het nie meer met Kleurling manne begin uit gaan because why they don't change. Almal almal is dan<br />
dieselfde,<br />
you know. Ek was getroud, dan het ek 'n Kleurling verhouding gehad met 'n outjie, toe is dit dan<br />
dieselfde,<br />
so hoekom moet ek dan met 'n Kleurling man uitgaan het ek gevoel. Ek het ek het vir myself<br />
gesê:<br />
"Hoekom is ek so stupid", jy weet daai: "Ek is stupid man, ek kan mos nie aan dit vaskleef nie", you<br />
know.<br />
En toe kry ek vir my 'n Swart ou, toe't ek met 'n Swart ou uit gegaan en ek het die wonderlikste<br />
vehouding<br />
gehad, you know that loving, caring- ek het nie iemand gehad wat vir my vloek in die straat nie,<br />
ek het as hy met my wil gepraat het, okay nou en dan het hy gedink hy kan sy luck met my try. Because uh<br />
daai<br />
abusive toe't ek dinge begin verstaan al reeds, sien jy, en toe't ek vir hom gesê. "wow, met my praat jy<br />
nie so nie."<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Jy het al klaar die signals gesien.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Ja, ja nee. Nee nou kan ek nie, ek kan dit sien. Ek kan vir hom sê: "Kyk hierso, kan ek en<br />
jy met mekaar gesels<br />
asseblief" en ek vat hom toe in kamer toe, nie voor mense nie, en ek sê vir hom:<br />
"W at jy nou vir my gesê het, het ek nie van gehou nie, jy weet ek is lief vir jou, maar jy gannie vir my, met<br />
my praat soos jy voel jy wil nie, en ek respek jou", maar as jy nie vir<br />
iemand sê hou jy voel nie gaan daai<br />
persoon dink dat jy is maar tevrede met hoe hy met jou praat, you know,<br />
jy aanvaar alles, maar as jy daai<br />
lyn getrek het wat met jou in die verlede gebeur het, nê, dan sal jy dit so opvat, maar as jy nie daai lyn<br />
getrek<br />
het nê, sal dit aangaan en aangaan en aangaan en aangaan. Daai man moet kan verstaan hoe jy voel<br />
of jy<br />
moet verstaan hoe hy voel, julle moet kan praat oor sekere dinge, jy moet uit dit uit kom en jy moet<br />
kan sê hoe jy voel, jy moet bold is, jy sê: "Nee man wil jy nou vir my sê uh,uh dink jy nou ek is mal om te<br />
aan vaar wat jy nou vir my sê".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
En vroeёr kon jy dit nie doen nie?<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Ek kon dit nie doen nie! Ek was bang. Ek was bang, as ek my mond oop maak dan kry ek<br />
'n klap.<br />
Dit was net 'n een kant ding gewees, daar was nooit kommunikasie nie. As daar nie understanding,<br />
communication<br />
and trust is nie, jy kan maar vergeet van 'n verhouding of, of 'n huwelik, want manne breek<br />
vir jou so af, jy bly net stil, jy sê net ja, ja,<br />
ja vir alles, jy aanvaar alles en dit is hoekom jy so attractive is<br />
aan abusive<br />
men, because alles is maar net 'n ja jy is maar net ja.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Easy going.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Easy-going, " Nee sy's alright, sy gaan maar net sê ja, ek gaan nou soon toe", dan dink<br />
hy: " Nee sy gaan maar net sê ja, sy aanvaar alles." Jy het nie nodig om alles te aanvaar nie, you know, you<br />
don't<br />
have to. They need to know how you feel about certain things. Jy is nie 'n man se property nie. En dit<br />
is al<br />
way hoe hy jou gaan respekteer, al way.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Dit klink asof jy sê jy moet vir hom leer hoe om jou te treat.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Exactly, …" I love you and<br />
I repect you, but if you don't respect me", kyk daar's baie<br />
12
ander vrouens wat seker maar daai lewe wil lewe wil lewe, maar hy gaan nie sy luck weer met my try nie.<br />
Hy weet waar hy staan met die tipe werk wat ek doen, ek sê die man, nog voor ek nog uitgaan dan sê ek vir<br />
hom,<br />
ek hou nie van dit nie, dit nie, dit nie. Onthou net daar's nie tweede kans by my nie, neusie verby. Ek<br />
is 'n baie loving mens, ek is 'n fun mens, ek hou van die natuur, ek hou van baie sang, ons talent is om te<br />
sing,<br />
en as ek opstaan dan sing ek, as ek gaan slaap dan sing ek- I'm full of love and joy, never angry when I<br />
get out of bed, never angry when I go to sleep, ek sal dinge uitsorteer voor ek gaan slaap-ek wil goed voel,<br />
ek wil nie met 'n suur gesig dood gaan nie, ek wil goed voel en dit is hoe ek my kinders ook leer.<br />
So, ek glo nie 'n ander vehouding sal my onderkry nie. Hy't gesê, hy gaan vir my, hy gaan vir my breek. Jy<br />
weet<br />
die manne het altyd daai manier en sê: '"Ek gaan haar wys, sy weet waar sit of staan sy met my", nou<br />
dit werk nie so nie. As julle mekaar verstaan, van die staanpoor af vir mekaar sê dit is hoe ek voel, en dit is<br />
wat ek like, my likes en dislikes and this is what I'm doing. If you don't like it I want you to say now,<br />
because<br />
ek gaan jou nie 'n tweede kans gee nie. En by my is dit nie van jy gaan change nie, julle change<br />
nooit nie. Want hulle sê hulle gaan probeer om aan hulle te werk en te gaan vir counselling- is nie maklik<br />
vir 'n man om ui te gaan daar nie. En ek het nie tyd om te sit en wag nie tot hy decide hy gaan uit gaan nie.<br />
Ek is oor daai stage van geabuse word.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Dit lyk asof jy dit nie meer tolerate nie.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Nee, no, by my gaan dit nie vaskleef<br />
nie, nie meer nie, ek is verby daai. Ek uh, hou nie<br />
van ba kleiery nie, ek hou nie daarvan dat 'n man my moet verskree nie, ek hou nie daarvan 'n man moet<br />
leu ens praat nie, hoe!, as jy kan leuens praat,ek los jou net omdat jy vir my gelieg het, gaan ek jou los, en<br />
ek gaan jou sê ook: "Jy's gevaarlik, ek vertrou jou nie. En voor ons uit gegaan het het ek die dinge als<br />
genoem<br />
vir jou en jy wys my jy doen dit, so which means jy't nou jy't nou daai houding en jy willie change<br />
nie,<br />
so ek is min. Ek kan dit bold sê, ek kan dit bold sê, dan voel ek niks nie, you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So, jy kan die gevolge daarvan ook…<br />
ANTOINETTE:…<br />
Ja, ek dra dit, ek ek is nie meer bang nie, want ek ek ken nou my regte. Ek ken my<br />
regte<br />
van 'n vrou, want ek het nie verstaan wat beteken abuse nie.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So dit speel 'n belangrike rol ook, dat jy regte het?<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Jy moet dit ken, as jy dit nie ken nie, jy gaan net aanvaar, want jy moet dit kan verstaan<br />
wat<br />
beteken abuse. Vrouens moet beginne uitgaan daar en hulle moet gaan vir, vir, vir, hoe kan ek vir jou<br />
sê- hulle moet gaan na organisasies toe vir opleidng. Baie keer dan dink vrouens nê,<br />
as jy gaan vir<br />
opleiding, uh uh die mense dink hulle is beter as jy. Dit is dan vir jou, vir jou toekoms. Dit dit gaan jou<br />
help, met 'n verhouding, met jou kinders se verhouding, met jou verhouding in die kerk<br />
in, waar jy werk.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So jou, totaal jy as mens.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Ja, you know. En jy kan dit oordra in die huis in. I think it starts at home, because you<br />
have<br />
to start at home and give it over to them, you have to educate your family about it and then you go out<br />
there,<br />
verstaan jy. So dit is, dit is baie belangrik. En ek uh, dit het tyd gevat, ek wil jou sê dit het tyd gevat.<br />
Nou<br />
en dan dan lag ek. (Laughing). Dan lag ek oor dit wat gebeur het. Dan sê ek vir die kinders: "Ek weet<br />
nie kan julle onthou nie, daai tyd en daai tyd". En dan sê hulle nogal<br />
vir my: " Haai, Mammie en kyk hoe's<br />
Mammie<br />
nou", you know .<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Hulle sien dit ook, hulle het die verandering gesien.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Ja, en vir my is dit like ek kan al sien al as uh iemand, 'n man na my toe kom en hy<br />
approach<br />
my, dan sê hy nou vir my hoe hy voel oor my. En kyk hulle het mos so lang deuntjie, hulle sing<br />
daai<br />
deuntjie so lekker, so mooi sous vir hulle, you know. En uh jy is mos so mooi, en ek hou van jou<br />
stappie<br />
en jou oë dit glans so en daai smile van jou, jou figuretjie, en al daai tipe… kyk hulle het mos daai<br />
soet<br />
woorde vir jou. Kyk daai is by-pass,<br />
long gone, ek is nie 'n kind nie, ek verstaan abuse. Hulle abuse<br />
jou met sulke dinge.<br />
13<br />
Comment [HK2]:
INTERVIEWER: Baie subtly.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Baie… baie.<br />
INT ERVIEWER: So jy is 'n wyser mens.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Hoe ek is uh, ek het 'n wyser mens uitgekom<br />
ek is bold staan ek uit, (laughing) you know.<br />
En ek is bly vir dit, maar jy moet een ding onthou dat die power, baie mense gebruik dit om mense te<br />
domineer.<br />
Jy moet ook baie versigtig wees om nie jou power te gebruik om mense te te manipuleer nie.<br />
Baie<br />
vrouens kom so uit dit uit ook. En dit is hoekom ek met baie vrouens daaroor praat. Nie net, nie om op<br />
mense<br />
te dans nie en mense te rule nie en en dis net jy wat wil sê is net jy wat wil doen.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So die nuwe power wat jy het, nuwe confidence wat jy het moet jy balance.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Exactly, you have to. You have to use it, you know, to counsel people. You have to be<br />
firm…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sê vir my van daai power as jy dit negatief gebruik.<br />
ANTOINETTE: As jy daai power negatief gebruik dan gaan dit 'n baie lelike uitwerking het op mense om<br />
jou. Dit<br />
gaan dinge meer, uh, uh mense sal nie verstaan nie hoe om sekere dinge aan te pak nie. Hulle sal<br />
vasgevange bly in daai huwelik, omdat jy daai different power gebruik op daai persoon, daai negatiewe<br />
pow er<br />
op daai persoon. En dan gaan hulle dink: "Nee, ek moet maar nou is hier want is reg", you know of<br />
ek moet my man aanrand, you know. Baie mense verstaan nie, hulle weet nie hoe om dit oor te dra nie aan<br />
die mense nie. Jy het jou regte. Een ding moet jy onthou, jy het jou regte. Punt nommer een- niemand het<br />
die reg om aan jou te slaan nie, niemand het die reg om jou te vloek nie, niemand het die reg om jou<br />
seksueel<br />
af te rem nie, you know. En niemand het die reg om lelike dinge van jou te sê nie. Niemand het<br />
die reg om jou uh uh jou dignity van jou af te gryp nie en vir jou so af te takel nie en vir jou te sê: "Ja, jy is<br />
maar<br />
'n useless nie", want mans doen dit. Hulle doen dit met graagte. So dit is hoekom, ek uh, ek is nie<br />
versigtig<br />
weer nie, ek weet. Ek is ek is goed opgelei en ek weet hoe om my power te gebruik, ek weet<br />
wanneer<br />
moet ek firm is, bold staan daar uit, en know when I have to put my foot down en sê nou het jy te<br />
ver gegaan en ek moet nou verdere stappe neem. En daar's 'n tyd wanneer jy moet 'n bietjie sag wees, you<br />
know<br />
en hulle bietjie die wat jy sê: "Okay, dinge sal okay is en, you know, but there is a time when you<br />
have<br />
to draw a line, this man have to know that this is serious, this is an offence.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sê vir my van daai different tye, wanneer jy kan negotiate en wanneer trek jy die lyn.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Wanneer ek die lyn trek, nê, wanneer mans baie, hulle hulle … partykeer stem hulle saam<br />
met<br />
sekere dinge, right, maar wanneer 'n man vir my kan sê sy vrou is maar 'n useless of sy kind is maar 'n<br />
useless,<br />
hy het altyd 'n negatiewe sien in die famielie in, hy is altyd die een wat reg bly, hy gee nie vir jou<br />
kans eintlik om te praat nie. As hy dink jy wil iets sê dan dan, hy switch jou so lelik af, its like the way<br />
he<br />
say it.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Dis baie te doen met sy attitude?<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Sy attitude, as hy 'n attitude problem het sal jy dit kan hoor because it comes from inside,<br />
the way he say it to you "listen here, you don't tell me, jy sê nie vir my nie". Like, hy voel hy is altyd in<br />
beheer<br />
met als, so as hy daai bytekant kom voel hy ook hy is altyd in beheer, as hy hier by Crisis Centre<br />
ook kom en hy praat met sy vrou voor my, dan voel hy hy is ook in beheer.<br />
INTERVIEWER: En jy het dit in jou huwelik ook ervaar?<br />
ANTOINETTE: Exactly, ja…dan sê ek meneer nou gaan jy bietjies<br />
te ver, ek sien jy doen net die praat<br />
werk,<br />
jy gee nie jou vrou 'n kans nie, sy moet net haar mond hou, jy rem haar af. Want sy sê jy sê vir haar<br />
"Hou<br />
jou bek!" dan bly sy maar stil, maar nou is dit haar beurt, jy het jou kans gehad. En as ek sien hy hy<br />
14
hy voel net nie niemand sê hom nie, dan sê ek nou moet 'n lyn getrek word, nou moet die gereg maar sy<br />
gang<br />
gaan, ek het probeer. Sy het vir jou hoeveel kanse al gegee, jy het gevoel jy is reg, miskien as die<br />
magistraat<br />
vir jou kan sê, miskien voel jy ek is nou 'n vrou, julle wil mos nie gesê word deur vrouens nie,<br />
tipiese<br />
Kleurling mans, wil nie gesê word deur 'n Kleurling vroue nie 'jy sê nie vir my nie'. En dit is waar ek<br />
byvoorbeeld<br />
vir hom sou gesê het: "Daar's vrouens soos ons hier buite man, wat weet hoe om met sulke<br />
mens<br />
te werk. Ons gaan jou nie slaan met vuiste nie, ons gaan jou nie aanrand nie, maar ons gaan jou met 'n<br />
paar<br />
woorde gaan ons jou mee slaan, nie vloek nie, nie emotional afbreek nie, net vir jou sê waar ons<br />
staan".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Daai assertiveness.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Ja,…So dit is hoe ek voel oor die<br />
hele ding. Daar's so baie dinge wat 'n mens kan van<br />
praat, baie dinge wat gebeur wat jy nou sien hoe werk<br />
jy met die mense en uh vernaam as dit nou bekeerde<br />
mense is. Daar was 'n geval gewees en die man sê: "Ek vat my bybel, ek lees my bybel" toe vra ek "Sy<br />
word<br />
so afgerem maar met 'n bybel storie", you know…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So daar is verskillende tactics wat hulle gebruik.<br />
AN TOINETTE: Daar is verskillende tactics wat hulle gebruik, en uh die arme vrou sy voel nou soos 'n<br />
stupid. In die kerk in moet sy maar net "Yes sister, ja pastoor, ja priester". Sy is nou so<br />
skaam want haar<br />
man<br />
is nou 'n pastoor of 'n priester of 'n diaaken of whatever jy vir hom noem.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So haar man se posisie, sy status, en so aan, dit druk haar verder af. Sê vir my in jou<br />
Huwelik…<br />
ANTOINETTE:…Verder<br />
af.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sê vir my in jou huwelik, jou man het, daar was 'n tyd toe hy nie gewerk het nie, jy<br />
was soort van die broodwinner in die hu is in.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Ja ek was die broodwinner.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
En tog het daar abuse plaas gevind in die huis in.<br />
ANTOINETTE: En waar ek dit toe nou opgetel het nê, soos<br />
ek vir jou sê ek het vir counselling gegaan,<br />
ma ns soos daai as die vrou werk en sy is die broodwinner in die huis in, omdat hy minderwaardig voel,<br />
rand hy vir haar so aan. Emotionally gaan hy vir haar liederlik<br />
afknou, sy moet een ding onthou, dit gaan<br />
nie lekker<br />
gaan in die huis in nie. En nog 'n ander ding is as die man werk en die vrou werk ook, maar as<br />
die die die vrou miskien 'n hoër posisie as die man het, moet jy een ding onhou ook gaan<br />
hy minderwaardig<br />
voel, gaan dit altyd daai unbalancedness in die huis in is, you know. Because why, jy kry<br />
meer geld en hy<br />
kry nie soveel geld as wat jy kry nie. En hy gaan jou altyd beledig, hy gaan altyd lelike, negatiewe dinge<br />
het om van jou te sê, you know. En dan wil hulle ook nie gaan vir counselling nie, even as jy vir hom gaan<br />
sê : "Ek dink jy moet ingaan vir counselling", hy weier, daars niks verkeerd met hom nie, jy is altyd die<br />
probleem.<br />
Daar's altyd 'n fout met jou, maar ek wil vir jou sê, daar's niks foute by jou, maar jy gaan so<br />
voel,<br />
nê naderhand, dat jy is die fout in die huis in. As jy miskien dit gedoen het dan sou dit miskien nie<br />
gesê<br />
gewees het nie, you know. Hulle maak jou dat jy dat jy minderwaardig voel, dat jy voel jy is die<br />
problem<br />
in die huis in.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So jy doubt jouself.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Ja, jy, jy doubt jouself, in alles wat jy doen, jy doen niks reg nie. Jy voel dit so, want hy't<br />
dit al klaar afgedwing, geestelik is jy so afgerem deur die dinge wat hy vir jou sê, hy kraak jou af.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So wanneer jy finally loop, dink jy dis 'n proses van van beginne jouself glo?<br />
ANTOINETTE: As wie loop nou?<br />
15
INTERVIEWER: As jy, die een wat geabuse word, loop.<br />
ANTOINETTE: As jy uit dit uit loop, dan het jy al reeds al so ver gegaan,<br />
dat jy, jy is die oorsaak van die<br />
probleme<br />
in die huis in.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay..<br />
ANTOINETTE: So as jy nie nou hier<br />
uitgaan nie, uit die huwelik uit nie, dan gaan die man jou dood<br />
maak.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So al loop, selfs al wanneer jy loop, is daar nog daai glo in is dat…<br />
ANTOINETTE: …Jy's die oorsa ak.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Laat, ek loop, ek is die problem so ek moet loop.<br />
ANTOINETTE: Jy moet loop, dit is nou die ander<br />
different way van dit. Die ander different way is<br />
wannneer jy loop want jy is moeg van die man, want jy weet daar's niks fout met jou nie.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Hoe het jy geloop?<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Ek het geloop want ek het myself beginnne ondersoek, ek het gekry daar's niks fout met<br />
my nie,<br />
die man is die probleem, you know. In die begin het ek gevoel "kyk hier, ek is die probleem", hy<br />
het my so laat voel. Hy het my minderwaardig laat<br />
voel, ek het regtig waar so gevoel, hoor. En ek het ook<br />
geglo dat die man is lief vir my. En as hy my nie gaan<br />
slaan nie, hy't 'n verhouding. Ek was al klaar<br />
gewoont<br />
al. So dis different ways hoe jy uit daai huwelik uit kom, verstaan jy, different ways. So is nie<br />
almal<br />
van ons wat dit so uit kom nie. Dit is hoekom ons as vrouens, ongeag watter ras jy is, moet ons daar<br />
is vir<br />
mekaar. So jy kan maklik, as jy nie daar is vir daai persoon nie, kan sy in 'n erger een in stap, gaan sy<br />
in haar<br />
dood in in stap, want daar was baie vrouens wat in hulle dood ingestap het, want hulle het nie die<br />
regte<br />
hulp gekry nie. So daarom kan ek vir jou sê as ons nie daar vir vrouens gaan wees nie dan gaan uh uh<br />
sy in haar dood in stap. Jy gaan either van 'n stroke dood either jy gaan mal raak (silence).<br />
En en ek sê vir jou nou as ons nie daar gaan wees vir mekaar nie gaan dit 'n onhuil wees as ons nie gaan<br />
opstaan<br />
nie en sê ek wil probeer 'n difference te maak nie, ek wil daar is vir iemand. Hier werk ek nou al<br />
meer<br />
as drie jaar voluntary, ek het vier kinders, ek het 'n kleinkind, ek het myself. Baie mense dink ek kry<br />
'n salaris.<br />
Ek kan nie vir jou sê nie, as ek net kom kry dan gee my vriende vir my, daar staan, 'n pak kos op<br />
my tafel, suiker, rys, toilet papier, toiletries, en 'n vyftig rand in 'n envelope en dan gaan ons weer aan,<br />
dan… Ek het nooit gekla nie, daar is nie kos in die huis nie. En is nou meer as drie jaar werk ek sonder 'n<br />
salaris<br />
en ek is so gelukkig, daar's niemand wat vir my afrem in my huis nie. Ek staan daar op, ek gaan<br />
werk<br />
toe. Ek roep dit ek gaan werk toe. Vir my is dit ek kry meer as 'n salaris, you know, …die werk wat<br />
ek<br />
doen.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Dis iets baie meer as 'n salaris.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Meer as 'n salaris, want mense wat 'n salaris verdien, sê ek vir jou is so ongelukkig, hulle<br />
huise<br />
is koud, there is no love in their homes, its so empty, they feel lost, they feel alone because hulle weet<br />
nie waarnatoe nou nie, hulle is rigtingloos met al daai miljoene rande. Ek wat nie 'n salaris verdien nie, ek<br />
wil vir jou sê, ek voel baie gelukkig, ek en<br />
my kinders. Al is dit net daai droë sny brood, ons (laughing)<br />
voel baie gelukkig.<br />
Niemand wat vir jou nag nie, niemand wat vir jou vloek nie, nou en dan voel jy lonely,<br />
bec ause you need somebody to talk to! But ek ek is so versigtig, ek is nie oorversigtig nie, ek weet ook<br />
wanneer gaan ek in 'n ander verhouding instap, die verhouding is nie vir my nie. Sommer die eerste dag as<br />
'n man met my praat dan hoor ek hoe hy met my praat, die stemtoon,<br />
die way hy sekere dinge sê.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Jy's meer sensitive.<br />
16
ANTOINETTE: Ja, ek let al daai dinge let ek op. Ek sal nie weer sommer so in 'n ander verhouding in stap<br />
nie.<br />
En ek kan dit vir my kinders ook sê, want hulle is groot. Ek ruik elke dag lekker, ek het, ek het<br />
perfume,<br />
ek spray en ek is elke dag in my werk in. Daar's nie een dag wat ek vir jou kan sê dat ek negatief<br />
uit die bed uit opstaan nie, because there is so much more then money. Sonder geld nê, kan jy nie, maar met<br />
geld<br />
is alles ook nie reg nie. En I'm I'm so proud, I'm a winner, I'm more then a conqueror. Its uhm…What<br />
more<br />
do I want? Rather without him than with a unhappy marriage, you know or a realtionship, without<br />
that<br />
rather.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So is baie dinge wat moes oorkom toe jy loop? Dit was nie net die abuse nie, is finacial,<br />
is ' n different<br />
attitude oor die lewe wat jy het.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Yes, is… is jy pak dinge in 'n different way aan, in 'n different lig sien jy baie ander<br />
din ge, you know. En uh, jy kan so, jy…but you will always smile as jy oor dit kom, ek wil dit vir jou, you<br />
will always<br />
smile. And I know, this is my calling, ek is gebrei vir dit, this is my calling and nobody can take<br />
it away.<br />
Al moet ek twintig jaar sonder 'n salaris werk, fabrieke het my gebel, hulle het my kom sien, daar's<br />
baie mense wat sê "Jy kry dan nie 'n salaris nie". Ek sê "Wie sê dit vir jou, the blessings pouring on me, so<br />
hoe,<br />
hoe meen jy, ek lewe lekker, lyk ek vir jou soos iemand wat sukkel, my skoene is nie skeef nie, my<br />
hare<br />
is altyd gedye, ek het lipstic aan my lippe", niemand weet nie eers of ek (laughing) swaer kry nie, so<br />
dit is hoe ek is. En ek gee nie voor nie, because ek sê jou hoe ek voel. As ek nie lekker voel vandag nie dan<br />
gaan<br />
ek vir jou sê. Ek is baie meer spontaan, ek is baie oop met sekere dinge. En ek praat hoe ek voel en dit<br />
is hoekom<br />
ek nie kwaad sal gaan slaap nie of depressed sal gaan slaap nie, want deur depressie het ek<br />
gebrand.<br />
So I have to deal with the situation, I have to talk about it, somebody need to know how I feel<br />
about<br />
certain things, even as iemand vir my iets sê wat ek nie van hou nie dan gaan ek daai persoon<br />
persoon<br />
sê: "Ek het nie daarvan gehou, die way jy met my gepraat het nie", I need to settle it before I go<br />
home<br />
to my family, before I go to bed I have to settle that thing. So jy leer so baie dinge, jy is so goed<br />
gebrei,<br />
jy is so goed ge-educate, net out of that abusive marriage,… just out of that abusive marriage you<br />
learn<br />
so much, but you have to step out of that marriage, then only you will learn, I'm telling you.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So jy sê 'n mens kan nie groei in 'n abusive marriage nie?<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Jy sal nooit kan groei nie, jy sal, jy sal agteruit gaan, niks sal regkom nie. Jy sal dink dit<br />
kom reg nê, dan's dit maar net weer terug….. Ek wil goed voel elke dag, as ek nuwe dinge aanpak dan voel<br />
ek goed.<br />
Ek wil nie met seer rond loop nie, want uh sê vir my, as ek met seer rond loop, wat gaan ek<br />
beteken vir die volgende persoon? Weet hoe sensitief is 'n kind,… 'n kind kan aanvoel, regtig waar,<br />
'n kind<br />
voel aan as daar nie iets lekker is nie, as jy nie goed voel nie, want hulle is baie sensitief. Baie keer<br />
dan<br />
kom daar<br />
kinders na my toe dan sê hulle: "Aunt Antoinette dit en dit het dit aan my gedoen", maar hoe kan<br />
daai<br />
kind na my toe kom, hoe kan sy na my toe kom as sy sien ek kannie met haar praat nie, sy lyk dan so<br />
hartseer,<br />
jy't seer op jou gesig. So jy sal moet deel met jou seer om iets te kan beteken vir die volgende<br />
persoon.<br />
En dit is wat vir my gehelp het, en jy moenie dink dit is net 'n deel want dit gebeur van, miskien<br />
soos<br />
uh, uh die jaar sê eighty six, dan gaan dit weer vir jou tref sê ninety, dan gaan dit jou weer tref ninety<br />
two,<br />
dan gaan dit you weer tref sê ninety six, dit vat jou in stages. Dit is hoekom moet jy uitgaan daar vir<br />
counselling.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So, al is jy klaar uit is daar nog baie werk om te doen.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Baie werk, want baie keer, nê, dan, dan, sny jy alles af. Jy try om af te sny, maar jy het<br />
nog nie gedeel met dit nie. Dit is hoekom jy aanhou sal seer kry want, want jy het jou verlede met nog nie<br />
eintlik<br />
mee gedeel nie. You have to deal with it. Anderste gaan jy maklik in 'n ding in stap.<br />
INT ERVIEWER: Is dit wat met jou gebeur het?<br />
ANTOINETTE: Exactly, dit is wat definitief met my gebeur het. Ek het nie verstaan nie, ek<br />
het nie gedeel<br />
met my verlede nie. En ek wil hê, en ek pleit eerste met baie vrouens, sê ek "Deel eerste met<br />
jou verlede,<br />
voordat<br />
jy in 'n verhouding ook in kan stap". Dis amper maak skoon eerste, want nou vat jy jou seer en daai<br />
man<br />
se seer, as hy ook nie met sy verlede gedeel het nie, jy moet vir hom ook kan sê: "Ek dink voor ek en<br />
17
jy in 'n verhouding ingaan, moet jy kan deel met jou verlede, want jy moenie dink nie jy het maklik uit 'n<br />
verhouding<br />
uit gekom nie, want toe jy uit daai verhouding uitkom toe het jy gebaklei met daai vroumens,<br />
jy't kinders nagelaat daar, julle het vir mekaar seer dinge gesê, of sy het vir jou dinge gesê wat vaskleef aan<br />
jou,<br />
iemand het vir my dinge gesê wat vaskleef aan my. So as ek nie met my verlede gaan deel nie en jy nie<br />
met<br />
jou verlede kan deel nie, kan ons nie 'n verhouding het nie. Al moet ons saam gaan vir counselling,<br />
saam<br />
gaan om 'n sielkundige te gaan sien, en en dan gaan daar nie 'n verhouding wees as ons nie gaan nie.<br />
En baie mense dink as hulle na 'n sielkundige toe gaan, jy's crack, 'Ek is nie mal nie'. Dit gaan nie oor dit<br />
nie,<br />
hoe gaan jy, hoe gaan jy kan werk aan die verhouding? En dis hoe ek voel. Ek gaan nie in 'n ver…'n<br />
huwelik,<br />
ek gaan, ek gaan weer trou, ek is nie bang daai nie, om in 'n huwelik in te stap nie, ek is nie<br />
bang<br />
om in 'n verhouding in te stap nie, maar ek gaan nie in dit in nie sonder counselling nie, met daai<br />
partner,<br />
hy sal moet, moet met sy verlede kan deel, as hy nie wil nie …uh uh hy moet een ding onhou, ek<br />
sal nie. Dit is hoe ek voel. Om 'n gesonde verhouding te het, gesonde idees, moet daar is…(silence)<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Antoinette, baie dankie, ek waardeer dit. Ek weet dit is verg baie energie, baie<br />
emosie…<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Humm, dis alrigh.<br />
INT ERVIEWER:<br />
Ek waaredeer dit regtig. Voor ons afsluit, is daar enigeiets wat jy wil sê oor die<br />
erv aaring van 'n "Kleurling" vrou wat jy, weet, 'n abusive relationship verlaat? Enige iets wat jy laastens<br />
daaroor<br />
wil sê?<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Daar is so baie dinge wat ek vir hulle wil sê, maar al wat ek vir hulle wil sê, hulle moenie<br />
bly lê nie, hulle moet opstaan, gaan werk aan hulle, en hulle moet kan deel met hulle verlede. Hulle moet<br />
dit nie wegsluit nie, hulle<br />
moet deel met dit, daar is baie mense wat hulle kan gaan vir counselling, daar is<br />
plekke waar jy kan gaan<br />
vir sielkundige behandeling, maar as hulle dit nie gaan doen nie, dan gaan hulle in<br />
'n erger<br />
verhouding, dan gaan hulle, miskien sal hulle al dood is. So ek pleit, ek pleit eintlik met daai<br />
vrouens<br />
wat so vassit, hulle is nie nodig om te glo hulle is nie, hulle moet nie hulleself blameer nie,<br />
dit is nie hulle fout nie. Daar's niks fout met hulle nie. Al wat hulle net moet doen is op te staan, uit te gaan<br />
vir counselling, en te sien dit is wat ek moet nou doen, en dit is al wat ek kan sê.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Dankie Antoinette.<br />
ANTOINETTE:<br />
Okay.<br />
2. TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH JENNY<br />
INETRVIEWER: As I have told you be fore, the interv iew is about uh" Coluered" women, …<br />
JENNY:<br />
Jaa.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Who left abusive relationships, okay. How did you experience leaving the<br />
relationship?<br />
JE NNY:<br />
How did I experience it? Umm… at first I thought: "Gee, what am I going to do now, you know.<br />
I mean.<br />
I'm not working because, I mean he actually kept me from getting work. He kept me at home, he<br />
didn't<br />
want me to go and work. And I thought "What am I going to do now. Now it all means I am gonna<br />
hav e to go lay on my mother and them's neck. But I thought … Oh, I mustn't swear (laughing).<br />
INTERVIEWER: Please feel free to talk the way you want to.<br />
JENNY:<br />
I thought, you know. "Okay, this is just a chance I have to take". And I went for it. Well, my child<br />
came<br />
first. Especially when she first started, you know, trying to commit suicide. I thought well, rather this<br />
than<br />
having a dead child on my hands. And that was about the fourth time that she done it.<br />
18
INTERVIEWER: Was the attempt to commit suicide related to the abuse?<br />
JENNY: Jaaa, no, it was terrible man, you know what she used to do. She couldn't have friends…<br />
nê.<br />
And<br />
umm, she used to like, you know. You know how's children. They want friends, now she only had one<br />
friend<br />
and she used to live behind us, and she always used to play with her. In fact, they grew up together,<br />
man.<br />
They were in, the other child was in napkins, she was in panty. Well I potty trained her very early and<br />
they<br />
were friends, but believe it or not, he didn't want her to be friends with that child, at all. And umm,<br />
sometimes<br />
when she go to shop, then he decides that she's taking to long at the shop and he will go and<br />
smack<br />
her there outside.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
How old was she?<br />
JENNY: Aag tog… She was about ten,<br />
eleven years old when he start hitting her and that was all because<br />
of this woman (husband's mistress) he was busy with.<br />
Just because Nicole (her daughter) didn't want to<br />
gre et her. Nicole used to tell her: "Listen here you black thing, don't look at me", you know. They are half<br />
African,<br />
and uh… you know she, she, she used to cause a lot of trouble and umm and she even used to go<br />
to the<br />
teachers and pretend she's Nicole's mother. Ja, that's how that woman was in our lives and uh she<br />
used<br />
to afterwards say Nicole don't go to school. She even used to tell him I get out of cars.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
This is now the woman your husband was involved with?<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja, and I mean I'm the whole day busy. You can even see for yourself now, the washing is<br />
washed<br />
its ironed. Where am I going to have time to get out of cars or ride around with cars? And… he just<br />
didn't believe us. He used to just believe her. And it got worse when she went to high school. Then<br />
it was<br />
Nicole isn't<br />
at school. Nicole is riding around with Majimbo's (group of gangsters). Nicole is getting<br />
out of<br />
Majimbo's<br />
cars. Now you must know what make it worse, she used to live opposite the school. Now, if you<br />
standing<br />
there, you can see everything, you know. Now and then she used to tell him Nicole get out…<br />
And<br />
then he used to come hit. He don't ask what's going on. He just start hitting and swearing. Now you<br />
must<br />
know he used to hit both of us.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja, she even used to go to the teachers and tell them stories about Nicole. Which we didn't even<br />
know<br />
about. Until one day when I made, you know to call his bluff, I made Nicole in standard nine, that<br />
was uh the year she failed in standard nine and then uh ooh he was worse, he got worse. The higher she<br />
we nt the worse it was, and it was as if he wished she must fail. It was so as if he wished she must turn out<br />
to be<br />
a bad girl.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Uh, uh, uh.<br />
JENNY:<br />
You know?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Uh<br />
JENNY: It looked as if he wanted her to be a bad girl, and because she's not turning out, it looked as if he<br />
it j ust got worse and me also. I mean, and he used to tell me. He used to say, you know: "Other women if<br />
you hit them and carry on like I carry on, they<br />
would have long ago turn to drinking and whoring or<br />
something" and he used to know<br />
I don't but yet he used to hit me and say I do it.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Uh. So you think it aggrevated him more, the fact that you didn't do it?<br />
JENNY: Ja, it didn't drive me to that, to that things, liquor and that and umm I used to smoke, I left<br />
smoking.<br />
I used to smoke a twenty a day. Oh, when its time for that man to come from work, Feroza.<br />
Whole<br />
day I don't smoke but when it's time for that man to come from work and then I start smoking, and<br />
um,<br />
okay, soo, we now, you know, just left him maar I tell you that man sleeps out then it was like<br />
19
Christmas for us. Really, if he sleep out for the whole weekend, then it was like Christmas for us, then you<br />
know<br />
its peace. You know what it, how it used to be like. Man I was telling you mos, from standard nine.<br />
So what we done, he used to mos this that he used to tell us she ride around with Majimbo's so I made this<br />
One<br />
teacher, this English teacher write a letter. So I told her. So she didn't want me to go to school. So I<br />
told her, okay you tell the teacher the teacher must write him a letter to say no, you were today in school.<br />
And<br />
the teacher wrote it. You know how cross that man was. He actually wanted to hit us. So I said no you<br />
can't.<br />
I said: "You then swear the child everyday, she don't go to school. Now here's the letter to proof that<br />
she's<br />
going to school. What do you want?", you know. And it look as if this thing just got him more mad.<br />
And<br />
um, then it looked as if he hated this child. She actually turned him against her, his own child. And<br />
um,<br />
okay. It carried on, you know until…He was working. You wouldn't believe it that in standard nine,<br />
the day she started her final exams that man left work. He's gone the whole morning, the minute Nicole<br />
comes<br />
home then that man step in. Then the radio is top volume. From that time two o'clock till past two<br />
three<br />
o'clock the next morning. He didn't give that child a chance to study. Really.<br />
JENNY:<br />
So you think this woman poisoned his mind.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja. He never gave her a chance so she failed. In fact she didn't even fail bad. She just<br />
failed<br />
History with one mark.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Mm.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja, and she didn't fail<br />
and just because this vice principal went after this woman's<br />
stories, she made Nicole fail. "She's rude to her mother". I tell her I'm her mother. "No, you not the woman<br />
that used to come complain",<br />
you know. And I got mad there in the office then Nicole said: "Mommy,<br />
come<br />
lets go".<br />
JENNY:<br />
So how long was this affair going on?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ho! Since the child was in grade one… Since the child was in grade one right through<br />
her school years this woman<br />
was interfering so in my life. And you wouldn't believe it the day I walked out<br />
of the house, she moved<br />
in. I don't know how long she was there and that was it. That was the end of their<br />
relationship. And then he… left her, his living with another woman…(Silence). But if you first think of<br />
how this man used to hit me. It was horrible. Then he sleep out,<br />
and now he come here, sometimes he come<br />
so three o'clock in the morning. And then he come hit me. He hit me of the bed and he pull me on my hair<br />
back<br />
on to the bed . I used to wear my hear long. I cut it short. It's through him I cut my hair short. And<br />
um,<br />
the next morning I can't even brush my hair. You know then it's full of, you know, blood.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Shu! It was bad Jenny.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Jaa, then the brush can't even go through my hair. That's how my scalp how my scalp started.<br />
That's<br />
why I've got this bad scalp, it was since that time. And um one…um it was holidays. I was working<br />
part-time,<br />
he weren't working. Now when I work and then um that was only in December time, then he<br />
used<br />
to allow me to work. If I get paid and then he take my money and him and this girlfriend of his will go<br />
shopping ( laughing).<br />
INTER VIEWER: Shu! You're able to laugh about it now?<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja, now (laughing), but sometimes when I sit so alone then I think I hate this man.<br />
INETRVIEWER:<br />
Uh uh.<br />
JENNY: Then I hate him. I really<br />
hate the pig. ( Silence)<br />
JENNY:<br />
You can ask another question now, then I'll answer it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Um. Sometimes you hate him.<br />
20
JENNY: Ja. One day he came there to the centre, so he said: "God forgives". I said: "Now, I did forgive<br />
you".<br />
And then forgetting, I you can't. I can't. I can't. You know there's times, especially now that Nicole is<br />
getting<br />
married. You know, then I think of, hey, must my child also go through what I went through.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Your scared for her.<br />
JENNY: Ja, and I know. I know her boyfriend. He's<br />
a lovely person but still, you know how they<br />
can change.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay. What happened to you? Did he change?<br />
JENNY: Ja, the minute he became involved with this woman. You must know, she<br />
was eleven years<br />
younger than him. That's why I can't stand small children that is so… like to mess around with married<br />
me n. You know they don't realize what they're doing. To them its like a challenge and to her it was like a<br />
challenge.<br />
She can take him away from me and you know when she used to see me then she used throw<br />
her body so, Feroza, and there was two children. Ja, she got two children from him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
This is while you were married.<br />
JENNY: Ja, and they used to take the child there in front of Nicole. "Oh here's your sister", and that made<br />
Nicole mad. And Nicole used to say: "I'm sorry, I…I don't look like a kaffir. But I don't believe that was<br />
my sister", you know. After that then the brother came along.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
And what were you doing?<br />
JENNY:<br />
There was nothing I could do that time, you know, that time the law<br />
didn't yet go through that.<br />
Because that time they used say, you know, they don't interfere with domestic<br />
affairs.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Umm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
If you go to the police station they don't. So there was nothing I could do. I didn't know what to<br />
do. I mean, look, I was stupid man, you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Umm.<br />
JENNY: And I think that a lot of people are saying umm, you know: "They like it, they like the<br />
punishment<br />
that's being dished out". But its not. It's just that you don't know who to turn to.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Umm.<br />
JENNY: Now, look what actually happened<br />
was the first time when Nicole tried to commit suicide. And I<br />
couldn't take it, you know. And then I took her to his mother. Because his mother was every time was lets<br />
pray<br />
lets pray and that wouldn't help.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
And that wouldn't help your relationship.<br />
JENNY: You know I actually hated<br />
going to church after that. Because every time you must pray. You<br />
know,<br />
Feroza, when its time for that man to come home from work and me and Nicole is walking and<br />
praying<br />
through the house, you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Terrified.<br />
JENNY: Ja, just for him to come. You know, then we even make sure everything<br />
is right. Then he<br />
sommer decide the food is not nice. He didn't even taste it. He just look at it and<br />
then he throw me with the<br />
pots.<br />
21
INTERVIEWER: Ssh.<br />
JENNY: Ja, then I must just dive.<br />
INTERVIEWER: He was not provoked or whatever.<br />
JENNY: Mmm huh-uh. That was just like to get out of the house. So<br />
as if I'm going to stop him. And in<br />
the mean<br />
time we were quite happy when he got out of the house. And it was so as if he's scared I'm gonna<br />
stop<br />
him from going out. And then he starts… with the food or at night, when he come from her knowing<br />
he'd done something. Then he would cause an argument. He sommer starts at Nicole's room, "See how<br />
your<br />
room look". Ja, then he starts shouting her around and that. And you must know then its exam time,<br />
you know. Every year nicely exam time then that man carry on like that.( Silence)<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So what did it do to you, knowing that he was doing this to your child?<br />
JENNY: I…I hated him. That's when I really started hating him. So, you can maar say I started hating<br />
him<br />
while<br />
we were still together. You know, I don't know, I don't think you ever experienced it, but if a man<br />
touch<br />
on you then you get this cold shivers.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Uh? Uh.<br />
JENNY: That's how I felt, I was feeling about that man. If he touch on me then I start speaking loud I say<br />
"No, man".<br />
I used to jump up and I go and sleep by Nicole.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Uh.<br />
JENNY:<br />
I just couldn't stick it if that man touch on me. Really, I couldn't take it. And up till now, I can't<br />
take a man (whispering), ho I can't stick a man, really. We can be friends, but the minute he starts being<br />
possessive or something, ho I can leave everything.<br />
INTER VIEWER: Why, because is that a sign that you saw in him…<br />
JENNY:<br />
Yes.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Possessiveness. He was possessive?<br />
JENNY: Ja, oh yes he was even in the meanwhile that he's busy doing funny things outside.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So while he was being unfaithful, he was accusing you of being unfaithful.<br />
JENNY: Ja! And there was no one that could help me. I go to my mother<br />
and she say no, I made my bed, I<br />
must<br />
sleep in it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Your mother said that?<br />
JENNY:<br />
Jaa. His mother again praying. And I got tired of praying, really. Even now I don't I don't really<br />
worry<br />
with going to church and that, because it just made me, you know not feel for church, nothing.<br />
Because<br />
you praying and praying and praying and nothing's helping, this man is rather getting worse.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Right.<br />
JENNY: And he only came right after I left him. He stopped<br />
drinking, he's no more drinking.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So, he was drinking as well.<br />
22
JENNY: Ja… He was smoking dagga, he left all that things, but still. I don't think I'll ever go back to that<br />
man<br />
again because the life I had was nothing nice, it was horrible. I mean for seventeen years.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
It's a long time.<br />
JENNY: Oh it was. It was. It was, that was now<br />
a living hell… I always say I wouldn't even wish<br />
it on my enemy, that type of life.. I don't.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Uhm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
It was a horrible life.<br />
INTERVIEWER: And as horrible as it was,<br />
you couldn't go to anybody.<br />
JENNY: I couldn't. I mean there was no one, I was stupid. There was no one I could turn to.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Um.<br />
JENNY:<br />
If it weren't for, now coming back to to the fourth time my child tried to commit suicide, we took<br />
her to doctor. Doctor in Silver Street.<br />
This doctor referred me to a psychologist there by the Centre for<br />
Peace Action. And uh her name was<br />
Monica. So, not me actually, Nicole. So, she called me in. Nicole<br />
always used to go for, you know, counselling. And uh then she called me one day and she said to me: "Did<br />
you know your daughter's blaming you for her suffering?" That time we were still in the house.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right, and still married.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja. And uh then he said, no man, this Monica said "She blame you for her suffering, she say you<br />
can do something about it". I said: "I can do something but where do we go to". You know they tried a<br />
shelter, that time the Centre had a shelter, but I don't know what went on, they even wanted to send her to<br />
uh a school, a boarding school<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Nicole?<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja, uh to get her away from Neil. And um, so then uh Welfare, I don't know how they got to hear<br />
of this<br />
business, they came in and then they said "No, she's now in the Welfare's hands".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Wow.<br />
JENNY: Ja, there came two ladies to<br />
the house…(Silence).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
What did you do.<br />
JENNY: Ho, I had such a fright. This lady said um, if they can find out that he is actually sexually abusing<br />
her, then they'll…I'm locked up that<br />
same day.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So they were blaming you?<br />
JE NNY: Ja. So they spoke to Nicole and Nicole said no. So this one told me… So this one told me , she<br />
said: "Jy kan dankie sê otherwise was jy nou opgesluit".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm… How did you feel being blamed for it?<br />
JENNY: I felt horrible (whispering). I thought no, but it was<br />
true. You know, afterwards, she spoke to me<br />
I thought: "No man, it is up to me, I mean what mother will see<br />
her child suffering like that?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
23
JENNY: And that's when I decided no, enough is enough and I went. (Silence).<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. So it was the the fact that Nicole went to the counsellor and the counsellor<br />
said<br />
Nicole<br />
is blaming you…<br />
JENNY: Ja, the psychologist. And<br />
the uh… She spoke to a lawyer. She asked what I want to do. I said, no,<br />
now I want to get divorced.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay. So, that made you decide finally.<br />
JENNY: Jaa. So…. She said we can't get divorced while I'm still staying there. So I said I don't know<br />
what am I gonna do. Something happened like the weekend, and he slept out<br />
and the Friday night, so he<br />
cam e home the… I don't know when, but I weren't there, me and Nicole like Saturday we used to go to<br />
Shoprite,<br />
you know, sometimes with my mother and them to Pick and Pay, you know. He had a car, he<br />
wouldn't<br />
even take me to go and buy groceries or meat and things, you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So it wasn't just physical abuse…<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Its like economically also.<br />
JENNY: I was all the<br />
abuses you can think of - verbal, sexually abused also and uh physical, mentally. I<br />
had everything. There<br />
was times when he used to shout me and I would sit and I would shiver just like this.<br />
Really, I just start shivering. And I can't even speak and there<br />
was times I even used to get myself speaking<br />
to m yself in the street. And Nicole just say: "Mommy!", or then I'm sitting there in the house and I start<br />
speaking<br />
to myself. And I thought, you know (silence)…<br />
INETRVIEWER:<br />
It was having a really bad effect on you.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja, it was. And um I think this… in fact I think this psychologist really had a lot to do with it.<br />
INTERVIEWR:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY: She like actually calmed me down because I was in a state, I didn't<br />
know am I coming or going.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
You were confused.<br />
JENNY: Mm. But now the only<br />
thing was Nicole, I only thought of her, you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay<br />
JENNY: What is the best for her. Because I was so confused, I didn't know, you know what to do. And<br />
the n she spoke to me and she said either this or that,<br />
you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
She gave you options… (saying it at the same time as Jenny).<br />
JE NNY:.. Options, ja. And um… then the only one I thought of is just getting Nicole away from this man,<br />
you know. I thought because she brought<br />
something to my attention, that I me myself I didn't really think<br />
of<br />
it when<br />
I was in this abuse. I though uh… I mean my father never ever smacked my mother, we didn't come<br />
out of such a house.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right. So it was something very new to you.<br />
24
JENNY: It was… it was . It was a shock, even when he first started hitting me I thought: "Ho, what did I<br />
do? " Because that time, we knew of if a woman is bad then a man hit her. And I thought I'm bad or what<br />
am I doing that’s bad.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So your mother<br />
wasn't hit because she was a good woman, you thought?<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja.<br />
IN TERVIEWER: And you are now<br />
bad?<br />
JE NNY: Ja, I thought but what am I doing that's bad? I don't, you know, worry with other men…. What<br />
am I doing that's… I, I just couldn't think, but I am the bad one, why's he, why's he hitting me? In the<br />
meantime<br />
I didn't, you know, you don't really think of this is abuse.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JE NNY: Because after he hit you, then he tell you how much he loves you, you know that story.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY:<br />
I use to fall for the joke.(Smiling).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: "But Jenny, you know I love you." Afterwards<br />
you know, when this woman I spoke, this<br />
psychologist, spoke to me I thought: "No man, but it's true<br />
this is now…"Because then she said: "No man<br />
this<br />
is abuse".<br />
INTERVIEWER: So it was important that somebody define it as abuse.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja… Because I thought I'm now, you know, I'm really to be blamed.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Right.<br />
JENNY: For everything that went wrong now, because he used to always blame me. He used<br />
to he even<br />
used to go<br />
tell his mother. Hismother used to come tell me.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So, all over the show you were getting the message that you were wrong.<br />
JENNY: Ja, the wrong person. Even<br />
the people in the street the way him and this girlfriend of his used to<br />
make<br />
me bad and I afterwards was so scared of people I avoided people. You know, I became like a<br />
introvert.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm, you withdrew.<br />
JENNY:<br />
And I just stayed in the house. I stayed away from people, you know. I couldn't even go to my<br />
mother,<br />
and if I talk to my mother then it's a whole fighting.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Tell me more about that.<br />
JENNY: He didn't want me to go to my mother and them. Because I would skinner, you know how they<br />
speak. I'm carry stories, and then I don't tell them nothing,<br />
I mean I was to shy.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Did you think that they would blame you, your own family?<br />
JE NNY: Ja, no my mother and them did say so. Okay, now I know I am a<br />
person who's very fast, I get<br />
25
quick cross, and they used to say, no it's trough me, you know. So jee<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So your family also blamed you.<br />
JENNY: Ja, so I had no one to turn to. That is why I stuck out that<br />
abuse for seventeen years. But that was<br />
the last year after the psychologist told me. And that weekend when he slept out and he wanted to hit me<br />
and I hit him back that day.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Oh! Did you do that<br />
before?<br />
JENNY: No, never! This man is tall, he wears a size twelve. And<br />
you can think for yourself.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
And you're such a small person.<br />
JENNY: What could I do? And he used to kick me with that boots , nê it got iron in front, he used to kick<br />
me , even Nicole also he used to kick her with it. And uh I think that is why I also hated him so because I<br />
though: "Jenie, I didn't go through this".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
As a child.<br />
JENNY: Why must I let my child suffer like that. But<br />
the psychologist really made me feel guilty.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Oh, she did lay it hard on me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Nê.<br />
JENNY: She did. She said she told me if it was her child<br />
she would have gone home already. She's not<br />
telling<br />
me to leave but…<br />
INT ERVIEWER: If she was in that position.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja, she said she wouldn't let her child suffer like that. And I though but its true, imagine what<br />
would<br />
my mother had done if my father, she would have go with us, you know I don't think she would have<br />
stuck out that abuse. And any other<br />
woman for that matter.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So you were feeling a lot of guilt?<br />
JENNY:<br />
I was, I was, that is when I decided, now Jenny its time to make a move, and I did. And uh, so I<br />
spoke<br />
to the lawyer, that's when I was out already, out of the house. I was for a year and four months away<br />
from<br />
him when I got divorced.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JENNY: Because they… you know, if it’s a free divorce they take their own time.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay. So the delay wasn't on your side.<br />
JENNY: No, no on their side, because they<br />
want everything, they wanted a marriage certificate everything<br />
you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So you were separated for a year.<br />
JENNY: Um, but that lawyer did lay down on him. He told him. Now the only thing is he doesn't want<br />
to<br />
move<br />
out of the house.<br />
26
INTERVIEWER: So he didn't move out.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Hu- uh.<br />
INTERVIEWER: You had<br />
to move out.<br />
JE NNY: He refused to. No, I was out of the house. I was lucky there, you know I had a good lawyer.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Um.<br />
JE NNY: And uh because usually if you go out of the house and then, you loose a lot, you get to loose a lot.<br />
But I didn't… because of this that<br />
Nicole tried to commit suicide.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: You see that all counted.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay. Made your case<br />
stronger.<br />
JE NNY: Ja, ja. Because they still wanted me to go for marriage, and I said: "You can go yourself."<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Go for marriage counselling?<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja, ja.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
And you refused?<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja, ja.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
What was his response?<br />
JENNY: I must go for marriage counselling first, they can't just divorce us.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Right.<br />
JENNY: Then I said: "Well then you go yourself, because<br />
I am definitely<br />
not going."<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So you were not interested in counselling.<br />
JENNY: Yes. I said: "I am not interested<br />
in going back to that man again". I mean, you know, if you're<br />
aw ay,<br />
if you out, then you think now, you know, all the things that he had done to me were wrong, you<br />
know.<br />
While you're there you don't think because he come and say sorry.<br />
INTER VIEWER:<br />
So its important that time to get out and be on your own.<br />
JE NNY: Ja, it is because a lot of times then he say uh "sorry I love you" and you're going to fall for it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
They confuse you.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So when you were on your own, you could think?<br />
JENNY:<br />
U-hum.<br />
27
INTERVIEWER: Clearly.<br />
JENNY: Ja . And uh he made me think as<br />
if I'm the sick person.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Uh, uh.<br />
JENNY:<br />
I'm the one that's sick.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY: And then the psychologist<br />
said: "No Jenny, it's not you, he's the one that's sick, he's the one that's<br />
abusing you". Then only I learned<br />
from, I didn’t know of verbal abuse, mental abuse, physical abuse, I<br />
didn't<br />
know of nothing.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
It seems like the your psychologist played a big role in…<br />
JENNY: She did. She did, she did.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Even teaching you all these things.<br />
JE NNY: U-hum. She did because I didn't know about it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Um, um.<br />
JENNY: People always used to say: "Laat vang hom". Where you walking<br />
down there then he get you<br />
half<br />
way and he kick your guts out.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Um, um.<br />
JENNY:<br />
And drag you home.<br />
IN TERVIEWER: So you were scared to take action because you're gonna pay for it again.<br />
JENNY: Ja, ja. That's all the things that<br />
I used think of, and not working because he used to keep me from<br />
working, he didn't want me to go and work.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay, okay.<br />
JENNY:<br />
So I had to maar that, you know, now I still haven't really got experience, you know, working<br />
experience.<br />
But I'm busy picking up there by the Centre (Both interviewer and Jenny laughs). I'm<br />
picking<br />
up a lot.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So now that you're out you have time to really grow.<br />
JENNY: Ee- ja, …But ay… you know, if<br />
I if I still sit and I think of he stole a lot of my life. He took a<br />
lot way from me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
How does that make you feel?<br />
JENNY: Jee! Oh boy, I hate him.<br />
INETRVIEWER:<br />
Um.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Even now that Nicole<br />
is getting married I hate him even more. Because even her, you know she<br />
speak like that, like she don't<br />
want nothing from him. She don't even want him to help with the wedding.<br />
28
She say she wants nothing, nothing from that man. But he'll have to help because she was only working<br />
part<br />
-time, she's no more working, nê.<br />
INETRVIEWER:<br />
Oh, Okay, okay.<br />
JENNY:<br />
And uh so she's at home now.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Um.<br />
JENNY: So she's looking for work.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Um. But she doesn't want him<br />
involved.<br />
JENNY: Hu- uh. He's a horrible person, man. You know he's like a show-off.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Um.<br />
JENNY: Everything must just revolve around him. He'll do it because you know he wants to feel<br />
important. And uh that's not gonna<br />
work.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
That's the way he behaved in your marriage also? Um, um. You're not important and he<br />
is?<br />
JENNY: Even where my family was concerned he wanted<br />
to be the important person, you know. I,I,I<br />
don't<br />
know, okay, I know he came out of a house where he was abused.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JENNY:<br />
And I think I felt sorry for him me also.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JE NNY: So I though even…So though I can… give him what he lost out on.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Alright.<br />
JENNY: He didn't really have motherly<br />
love.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: And uh he used to see his stepfather<br />
abusing his mother. And when the stepfather abused the<br />
mother then he gets to out, winter time<br />
or what then he must go sleep outside or by people, people must call<br />
him in<br />
let him come sleep there because if he don't want him, then he don't want him there. You know that's<br />
the abuse he again went through and I, me in turn thought I can…<br />
give it to him. And the meantime it<br />
affected me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Till when I lost out on a lot of things.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. So you tolerated a lot because you knew that he had experienced abuse.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Yes.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Maybe you can<br />
make it better.<br />
29
JENNY: I though,… ja, that's what I tried. But I couldn't… Because afterwards then I realized, no man,<br />
this man is sick. Because I mean no normal person will carry on like that. You know, like there was times<br />
when<br />
he would come to you. You know I even remember times like when he had like sex outside…<br />
INTREVIEWER:<br />
Mm, mm.<br />
JENNY: And then there were sometimes he used<br />
to come, his whole zip is open. Sometimes he used to<br />
come with<br />
a light trouser and then his trouser is full of blood here in front. Oh I, I saw a lot. And then,<br />
believe<br />
it or not, he used to hit me to wash that clothes.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
You had to…<br />
JENNY: Ja! Ja he used to hit me.<br />
INTERVIEWER: How were you ablt to do that?<br />
JENNY: I just had to but I hated him and this<br />
woman.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Uh, uh.<br />
JENNY:<br />
I just hated them. I couldn't tolerate them.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. And this was<br />
going on all of these eighteen years.<br />
JENNY: Ja, …ja…They just carried on as if life belonged to them.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY: Not thinking who they're hurting in the process.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY: I don't know… And now<br />
she's again involved with another married man. (Silence). Breaking up<br />
his house<br />
also, nê.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Um.<br />
JE NNY: I don't know. (Silence).<br />
And her family, the uncles used to come there, come swear at me also.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Jee.<br />
JENNY: Ja, her uncles.<br />
INTERVIEWER: And your family, were they aware of the affair?<br />
JENNY:<br />
My family, ja, they were. But they of that type, they were I think, in fact my father didn't really<br />
know what's going on, my mother<br />
used to hide a lot away from my father.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay. Do you think it would have made a difference?<br />
JENNY: It would have. It would have. I think my father would have really put it to a stop.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Um.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Because there was a time…and then he also hit me, then my father came immediately up for him.<br />
30
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JENNY: You know, and then it stopped<br />
for a long time and then it started again, when we went and live in<br />
extension<br />
six. And this girl didn't live far from us.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So it was even worse?<br />
JENNY: Ja. You must know her mother, when she walks<br />
past the house, then she walks with the children<br />
past. " There your Daddy lives", you know she used to carry<br />
on like that.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Um, um.<br />
JENNY: Um. And then you must know they could not speak right English. I used to laugh at them<br />
(laughs). Oh, I just couldn't be bothered<br />
of those people, really.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm. So what stopped you from going to your father directly?<br />
JE NNY: My mother. Because, you know how it is, you would rather go speak to your mother.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sure. Sure.<br />
JENNY:<br />
My father was a very hard person.<br />
INT ERVIEWER: Okay… But you knew he wouldn't tolerate it if you told him.<br />
JENNY: No he wouldn't. Now, I used to say, no, if I speak<br />
to my mother, my mother will speak to my<br />
father.<br />
Now she didn't.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm, mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
She hid away a lot.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Do you know<br />
why?<br />
JENNY:<br />
I don't know.<br />
INT ERVIEWER: Still don't understand it?<br />
JENNY:<br />
Still trying to (laughs).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Nê?<br />
JENNY: Uh. And … there was one year when he hit me, he hit me ugly. And uh I was working part-time it<br />
was January. And you know summer time, when the weather<br />
change just like that, it was hot the morning,<br />
all I had<br />
on was just a dress. And uh here late afternoon it<br />
started raining. I don't know, that hard… rain that<br />
don' t stop. And uh I was stranded at the shop and I was praying, you know, (whispering) "Can't someone<br />
come fetch me". Because I haven't even got a umbrella, nothing. And you must know that in town shops is<br />
far from the buss terminus. And uh,<br />
okay, then my brother came, you know, with the work's combi, jee and<br />
I think: "This is our lucky day", you<br />
know, there's a lift. And uh, drop me in front of the house, come there<br />
my brother<br />
in-law is alone at home, you know, small, he and Nicole like grew together and uh he was about<br />
nine,<br />
see and Nicole about six. And he tell me no, he went up to the bus terminus, now, to go and fetch me,<br />
with<br />
a umbrella.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Your husband?<br />
31
JENNY: Ja. And I said: "Oh, boy, here am I in the house, this man is going to come perform.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Um.<br />
JENNY: And he come in and I said<br />
oh no, I got a lift with Tiekie. Uh, uh, that man started hitting me…<br />
with<br />
that<br />
umbrella, he started hitting me. And that was non stop.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sh.<br />
JE NNY: And you are hitting and he even tore the clothes of me. And uh then the rain stopped and the sun<br />
was shining<br />
and he wanted to drag<br />
me just so bare outside. Ja, he wanted to drag me just so bare. So my<br />
brother-in-law<br />
is crying: "Boeta, los vir Jenny" and you know, and he's carrying on. He's not worried about<br />
the child…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
In front of the child…<br />
JENNY: Ja, in front of the child. And uh, now you must know, he even tore my bra of… And uh, he's just<br />
busy tearing there, and uh here he wanna take me to my<br />
friend, she lived by the flats so we came home<br />
together, you know. I said: "You can at least let me put<br />
something on", and he's smacking me there. And<br />
uh, he's laughing… So you see, there's things I wouldn't forget, because he hits till I'm crying and he's<br />
laughing<br />
.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Wow.<br />
JENNY:<br />
And uh, then<br />
uh, I you know, then I pull I grab the overall, no Nathan brought the overall to me,<br />
shame and imagine<br />
he's six.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
And he say: "Uh Jenny" and he bring it over and I haven't got a bra nothing on, and you must<br />
know<br />
he even tried to tear the panty also.<br />
INTERVIEWER: He was humiliating<br />
you?<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja. You know, he really, he really stripped me of a lot of things you know. And uh, he… and as I<br />
am walking, now to my friend, he's walking and smacking me outside and all the people is looking and<br />
swearing<br />
me of a "hoer meit" and all that.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
And nobody does nothing?<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja. No they knew him if, he carry on then he's gonna carry on more.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: So they maar just looked at him and then looked away and walk on, you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: He used to like a audience. And uh…when he… you know then we went in there. He just<br />
came in<br />
the re,<br />
he didn't say anything, he just started smacking me there in the women's flat. And he kicked me and<br />
we were flying there against the furniture<br />
and he walked out.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So it was quite severe?<br />
JENNY: Ja. And uh, so she was also shocked. "Jenny, wat gaan aan, wat het jy gedoen?" And uh me,<br />
haa i shame, I'm thinking but now<br />
how can she ask me "wat het ek gedoen"<br />
32
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JENNY: The way he was performing.<br />
Ek sê: "Nee, omdat hy daar bo gaan wag het en ons het met Tiekie<br />
gekom,<br />
nou sê hy ons het gaan hoer en al al daai goedte. Hy wil jou man ook gaan sê. He wanna come tell<br />
her husband also. But the husband saw her get out of the combi, and the husband knew my brother. And uh,<br />
so, you know, the next day, then that was the fifteenth of December, the sixteenth, so I went down with<br />
Nathan,<br />
it was a holiday. So Nathan told Nicole and uh… so my mother came and she touched by my back<br />
and I said: "No". So she asked: "What's it?" And I said: "No man, must have bumped into a…"Because I<br />
thought<br />
what's the use telling them, because they do nothing about it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So you felt it was useless confiding in somebody.<br />
JENNY: Ja. So, I thought ag, I even used to ask God when is He gonna to take me away.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
I mean you can't suffer like that, year in year out and nothing is happening.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So you were quite<br />
desperate.<br />
JE NNY: Ja. And uh, then he…Then uh, then my mother said: "No, show your father, show your father<br />
how your back<br />
look, because then Nicole told my mother.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay<br />
JENNY:<br />
Because she was so small, five years.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Uh.<br />
JENNY: So she told my mother. An<br />
uh, she's crying, she always used to cry when he hit me, because he<br />
was crying when he told her. And uh the two of them is sitting<br />
and crying now.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: And uh. Okay, then uh…then my mother said…then I took of my blouse, I can't mos see behind.<br />
Ooh!<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So you didn't know how bad it was.<br />
JENNY: Hu-uh. I just heard my father<br />
said: "Oh my God, what type of man is that". If you… like that<br />
was<br />
so<br />
bad, if you touch on it then the skins like peal away. That's how he used, that's how he used to, that's<br />
of the<br />
cord, you know the cords of the kettles?<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
But now that was the wire was out. Imagine now that.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Even worse.<br />
JENNY: Ja. He was doing that. And I just… My mother asked,<br />
my father asked me, now why didn't I tell<br />
him long<br />
ago. Then, I was shocked and I thought: " How?"<br />
INTERVIEWER: Because you thought<br />
your mother was…<br />
JENNY: Ja, I'm telling my mother, then…then he asked why did I still get married<br />
to him. Then I say; "<br />
33
Now how can Daddy… I got married to the man, daddy then told Mommy to take me to court, so we could<br />
get married.<br />
INTER VIEWER:<br />
Did he start hitting you before you got married?<br />
JENNY: Ja. Nicole was a premature baby, seven months and, you know, they keep them<br />
a month in<br />
hospital.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JE NNY: She got out of hospi… she just came out of hospital the Monday, the Friday, then he hit<br />
me….Then<br />
he hit me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Not even married yet.<br />
JENNY: Ja! And then I didn't want to get married. My mother said, no, my father said we must get<br />
married. In the mean time my father didn't know about it because<br />
my father, I couldn't understand why is<br />
my father<br />
is cross for me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes, when you think…<br />
JENNY: When I got married. Ja. Then<br />
I though: " How? How's my father behaving so much", you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
In the meantime I didn't understand what's going on. And I though ag this people just haven't got<br />
my time,<br />
they're not worried. Then I told my father: "How Daddy then said I must get married, how can<br />
Daddy ask me now why did I get married<br />
in the first place when Daddy said I must get married".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
So I said if I had known that time I wouldn't have looked at the pig again. It was terrible<br />
man,<br />
you know, Feroza, I really… (Close to tears). It was ugly, really…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: Really. When I sit and think of that…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
It was horrifying.<br />
JENNY: Ja! It was. Like you sit and<br />
you see here's a plate coming flying towards you, you must just dive.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JENNY: Like one Christmas eve, me and Nicole was very cross. You know how you working, you know<br />
how's<br />
it Christmas eve.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: You cleaning and clean everything,… and it was raining so all my bedding, you know, and we<br />
also didn't have time to do bedding<br />
because he was at home. You know, and when he's at home, you can do<br />
nothing the way he's carrying on. And uh… and then he used to … you know, perform there and its past<br />
twelve<br />
and you must know I'm using all my plates now, and then he came back, he come and he wants<br />
food.<br />
Okay, I take the plates out,<br />
I warm the food, you know I gave him the food. And then you must still<br />
cook, other people don't cook before<br />
it's something big. No I had to cook… food, not just braai, I had to<br />
cook food. You know a plate of food.<br />
And uhm, so it weren't hot enough, and you must know our house<br />
34
was also very cold and once the meat, you know, the fat of the meat, turns white, you struggle to get it hot.<br />
INETRVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: And then he threw me with<br />
the plate of food, he said it's shit. I mean we just finished cleaned.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So put in so much effort, hard work…<br />
JENNY: Ja. All of that food against the walls and that. I mean your carpets<br />
is washed he's sitting there<br />
with his dirty<br />
feet on the carpets, you know, that's the type of man he was.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Just total disrespect.<br />
JENNY: Ja! He was spiteful, he was… man he was everything that a beast can be.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JENNY:<br />
He was like a beast.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JE NNY: And uh……So, Nicole got up and she started doing washing, past twelve, and she was standing<br />
and doing washing. And she had put me to bed.<br />
INTERVIEWER: She was taking<br />
care of you.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja. No, I think she just had enough and she…so he wanted to smack her then she said: "Daddy<br />
wo uldn't smack me". Then she picked up the glasses and the food, you know .<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
How old was she then?<br />
JENNY:<br />
No, she was in standard nine, the same year she failed.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: You know and he told her also, he swore her also of how she failed and all that jazz, not thinking<br />
tha t he was the cause of it. That man was just, you know, there's really no words to describe him, a pig.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: A pig is even better than him.<br />
There's no words.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So how did you make sense of this abuse. So you thought it was because of this<br />
woman.<br />
JENNY: No, it was, because before<br />
he met her, you know he weren't like that, he weren't like that. Do you<br />
know what it feels like if somebody<br />
come in to the house and you see that hatred in their eyes. And that<br />
man's<br />
eyes is even standing still in his head.<br />
INETRVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: Really! He<br />
was like an untidy thing, you know. Then he come in, you must see how he look.<br />
When he go out.<br />
He used to every night when he come from work then he wash and dress him. Ja and<br />
when<br />
he come home, then he look filthy, then I must wash it. If I don't wash it, then he hit me. Mm. Even<br />
the bloody things, you know. She just had no pride, you know. You get that type of women that just, I don't<br />
know<br />
what …I don't know how to describe it, but no, our mothers brought us up very strictly, we're quite<br />
35
proud of it. You must have respect for your body.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JE NNY:<br />
That woman don't think.<br />
I don't know how did her mother bring her up but… I don't know<br />
(silence).<br />
You know we had a shed …in the, in the, it's part of the house, there's a shed. Now the shed is<br />
next<br />
to my room.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: You know there was one<br />
night, they were actually in the shed. And I was lying and listening<br />
"Cring<br />
-ca-ching", ja.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: I was lying and listening to it. But you wouldn't believe what went through my mind. If I had<br />
paraffin, I would have set it alight,<br />
really. That's how I hated that man.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: Really! There was one night they were in the car, busy in the car and I stood looking<br />
at them.<br />
The y had the car parked in our yard.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY:<br />
The car was parked at our back door.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So, he didn't<br />
even hide it?<br />
JENNY: No. And he saw me looking and he came in and he came and hit me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Because you were looking?<br />
JENNY: Ja, but it was not for that. For something else in the<br />
house.<br />
INTEVIEWER:<br />
So he made an excuse.<br />
JE NNY: Ja, sommer the food… rubbish, but he was eating the whole day of it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Uh.<br />
JE NNY: And then he decided that time I don't cook nice food, I cook horrible food, and you wouldn't<br />
believe me. You know, in the week other people, other<br />
women don't bother cooking. You know there's<br />
som e days you just don't feel like cooking.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sure.<br />
JENNY: And you have sandwiches<br />
and that. We didn't have that. Right through Saturday to Saturday…<br />
Sunday<br />
to Sunday there was a plate of food. Like in the week, you know, you must cook everyday descent<br />
food.<br />
Okay, that I understood because he must take, he used to take food to work.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JE NNY: Until there was one time when I found out he's not even going to work.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
This when you making all this effort.<br />
36
JENNY: Yes, that I'm packing so in. Then there was again a time when uh they working like in the veld.<br />
Okay,<br />
that I understand. First he used to take food, but Sundays the man wanted pudding. And on<br />
Mondays,<br />
he wants pudding also for lunch. He had his food, then he wants pudding, ja, any type of<br />
pudding,<br />
there must be pudding also, and then he wants fruits- a banana, a apple and a orange, right. And<br />
then<br />
there must be sweets also. And then that's when I found out, no, him and this girl is having pick -nick.<br />
INETRVIEWER:<br />
With your…<br />
JENNY: With her children, ja. Like Fridays<br />
when he had pay, he did go shopping with them,....Not<br />
wo rried<br />
have I got food there in the house,<br />
no he's not worried, because he's mos gone for the whole<br />
weekend.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JENNY: He was not worried if there's food in the house.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Jenny, how did you<br />
cope with things.<br />
JENNY: I… got used to it. You wouldn't believe it, you get used to it. The<br />
only thing I hated was when he<br />
star ted<br />
with Nicole. You know I thought I, I can take it, but my child I mean it's his child. It's a different<br />
thing<br />
if he was step.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY:<br />
But he's not step. I mean your own blood child and you can, you know, treat her like that. And uh,<br />
when this child was small, you<br />
know how this man loved the child. I couldn't even hit her and then he used<br />
to h it me, you know, that's how that man was over that child. But this woman had to come change<br />
everything,<br />
just with her stories.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
She used to make up a lot of stories and he used to fall for the joke. Then he used to believe her.<br />
He,<br />
you know… he just didn't worry. (Silence).<br />
You know, if you think of it, you know somebody's hitting<br />
you then he's still laughing. That means that's<br />
not, he's not…<br />
INTERVIEWER: He has the intention<br />
of doing it.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja! It's not unintentional, which means he's doing it intentional.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY: You know?<br />
INTREVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JENNY:<br />
And uh…the way he done it was as if he wanted to, he want to hurt me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JE NNY: And uh… you know,<br />
I just didn't think of it like that. Not until that woman spoke to me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm<br />
JE NNY: And said: "This is mos nonsense". Its not his body! Its my body that's getting hurt. To think you<br />
know.<br />
I actually felt like somebody that's waking up.<br />
37
INTERVIEWER: Okay . So it's like you were asleep all the time.<br />
JE NNY: Ja! And I think I know what a lot of women are going through, that still sit in relationships like<br />
that.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JE NNY: It's so as if they're asleep. That is why I wouldn't like other people say: "Ooh, if I'm you, I'll leave<br />
him"<br />
. No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
You know it's much more difficult than that.<br />
JENNY: Ja. Ja. I wouldn't. Because mm… A lot of them said: "Oh if I were you, I'll do this and I'll do<br />
that<br />
that and I'll do that. You can't! You didn't go through that things.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Does it make you angry when people say that.<br />
JENNY: Ja, it do. No really I get… and I tell them. I really I tell them. I said have you<br />
ever tried putting<br />
yourself in this women's shoes in stead of I'll do this and I'll do that. Put your, put yourself<br />
in that women's<br />
sho es. And if they still talk more then I say: "You know, I come from that type of life".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Then I tell them now.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So, you think people, generally don't understand?<br />
JENNY: They don't. The person that's in it… knows what's going on. It… is so, man it is really as if<br />
you're<br />
asleep.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
You don't realize what's happening to you. Not unless something… You know you get that wakeup<br />
call.<br />
INETERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JE NNY: Then only you realize: "But this pig, what has what has he been doing to me all the time", you<br />
know.<br />
INETRVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JENNY: And then you realize, no man,<br />
I'm not this man's child. I'm not his boxing cloves or boxing bags.<br />
INETRVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: You know this punching<br />
bags that they usually do karate and that. Or his football or something.<br />
An d then you really start hating him,<br />
now, like I hate him today. I'll speak to him but… I don't think I'll<br />
ever even<br />
let him touch on me. Because if that man touch on me then I, oh I still get the cold shivers.<br />
INTEVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
I still get that.<br />
38
INTERVIEWER: So you have some pretty strong emotions still.<br />
JENNY: Ja. No he left some deep scares in me. And but he left it so that I… don't know<br />
will I…. Other<br />
women<br />
it's easy for them to take another man but I don't know about me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: No, he left some deep scares<br />
there. I don't think I'll…In a hurry, I don't know of in time to come,<br />
I mean I'm forty two this year (laughing).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Still young.<br />
JE NNY: No, not really young. I'm nearly over the hill (Both researcher and Jenny laughs). Will I<br />
be able<br />
to….<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So you think about it- will you be able to have another relationship?<br />
JENNY: Ja. I mean,…<br />
no I mean you, you want to try it and then oh boy then it flew, something pushes<br />
up in<br />
you. Then I start getting rude, I become defensive.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY:<br />
You know.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So you're much more<br />
careful now around men.<br />
JENNY: Very! Too much. I think<br />
too much.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay, okay.<br />
JENNY: I think I'm now too much ( laughs). There's times when I get cross for myself;<br />
"Jenny it weren't<br />
nec essary to be so rude to the man was just being friendly",<br />
you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY: I get cross for myself because sometimes it's unnecessary.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay. So you realize it's a part of … of the abuse that you went…<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sort of the after effects of that.<br />
JENNY: Ja. But I think it's now… very long that its… still working on me, and you know, will it ever be<br />
able to leave me, I don't know. Like, when I heard Nicole is getting married, boy I cried ( laughs).<br />
INTERVIEWER: Oh,<br />
is it?<br />
JENNY: I cried, I thought: "Jee, my child, my one and only child.<br />
Must I now loose her to someone<br />
else",<br />
you know for him to do what I went through<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY:<br />
But I told him that, nê. When they were still going out, but they're going out long now, four years.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
39
JENNY: But I told him, I said: "You know, you know what type of life Nicole come from".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: "I don't think you… wanna<br />
do anything to her, nê?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: Because I think I will really<br />
hurt him ugly.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay. So you're taking a very different approach<br />
from what your mother did. You<br />
are…really<br />
letting him know.<br />
JENNY:<br />
That's just it! I'm not doing what my mother do.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: And I don't think I'm going to allow any other person to go through<br />
what I'm going through. That<br />
is why I really… I am strongly…I would<br />
like to just work with abused women.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Mm. Okay.<br />
JENNY:<br />
I would like to work in that field. I am seriously thinking about it<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay. (Silence). You think you understand, you would understand what they're going<br />
through?<br />
JENNY: I will. And I think I will be able to give them very good advice. What to do and what<br />
not to do.<br />
Wh at to say and what not to say.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Tell me a bit about that good advice and what to say.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Uh. No, like specially if he come in, like, okay, you get some of them that don't want to get out of<br />
the relationship.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JENNY: Okay, there I know I'll be able to advice them, especially like where there children<br />
is concerned.<br />
If you<br />
see that child is becoming difficult, you know, take them to see a psychologist, you know. Don't sit<br />
and wait… until something<br />
bad happens.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. So look for signs.<br />
JENNY: Ja. Not like I did. I would like them…you know I would like to give them advise on<br />
anything-<br />
on their children, on themselves (clapping her hands), on signs.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: On what to see in a man. If he's coming to …like look for trouble and what to do, you know. For<br />
instance, like uh, we sitting and watching t.v. and he comes<br />
and he put off the t.v. "You want to sit and<br />
wa tch t.v.<br />
the whole day". Fine, just get up, don't say anything, go to the kitchen, start dishing up, do<br />
anything,<br />
but don't like aggravate him more.<br />
INT ERVIEWER: Okay. So did you also use that kind of behaviour to try and avoid it, things from getting<br />
out of hand.<br />
40
JENNY: But I used to get cross.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: I used to put the t.v. on again.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Alright.<br />
JENNY:<br />
And that's when…<br />
INT ERVIEWER: So you defied him.<br />
JENNY: Ja. That's when he used to get actually now, you know they, they look for something.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Right. So you're saying don't give them something.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Don't give them something. But on the other hand, don't let them sit on your head.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Don't, don't give him that but show him, you know…when he's cooled off you gonna tell him<br />
very nice,<br />
the reason why you, why you done that why you didn't put the t.v on, and so you, you give him<br />
options<br />
also.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY:<br />
What do he want and what don't he want. Don't like, from the beginning, don't let a man control<br />
you from the word go.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
You set your goals.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JENNY:You tell him from the word<br />
go: "Listen here it's so and so from my side, you tell me what is<br />
you rs".<br />
Like that you learn to respect each other's feelings, what they want and what they don't want. You<br />
work<br />
on it together.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JENNY: Don't just, you know...go into a thing blindfolded.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. You think that's what you did?<br />
JENNY: I did. I didn't… I mean<br />
… We grew up learning like this: "My mother never got a smack from<br />
my father. We didn't know what was<br />
swear words. I learned to swear when I got married to this man… The<br />
way he used to swear me, I started swearing<br />
him back, but the swear words couldn't come out because we<br />
weren't used to swearing. It felt funny coming out of your mouth.<br />
INTERVIEWER: It was quite shocking being exposed to this.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja. I mean I couldn't swear. Afterwards, as years went on, then only I started swearing him<br />
back.<br />
Ja. That man even use to swear Nicole of the pads he must buy her.<br />
41
INETREVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JE NNY: Ja. That's the type of… and where in the street.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Really? Humiliating her.<br />
JENNY: Ja. He knows she sick and then he say you know,<br />
uh, uh, can I use the words?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Go ahead.<br />
JENNY: Then he used to say; "You your<br />
little tiekieline with your bloed poes". That's the things he used<br />
to s wear<br />
the child. And she couldn't take it anymore because how...you know she just thought of how the<br />
people is looking at her.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Exactly. Shame.<br />
JENNY: Such people, thy must get<br />
a kind of uh centre for them, where they must send them away. They<br />
must<br />
go through a lot of counselling.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: (Silence). Because when he had to go for counselling, he told Monica there was nothing wrong<br />
with<br />
him.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So you actually<br />
took him with you for counselling?<br />
JENNY:<br />
She called him, I didn't go. You see he thought this was like a marriage counsellor.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JENNY:<br />
You know for me like to come back home.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: But in the meantime, the morning<br />
early I was there. And I told Monica why I don't want to.<br />
Because, look, if we walk out of that centre's yard, I'm on my own. There's no one to protect me and I know<br />
he would have forced me to go back home with him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY:<br />
And… perhaps by now I wouldn't have even had a daughter.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: Perhaps by then she would have got right what she's been<br />
trying to do all the time. Trying to<br />
commit suicide. She would have really<br />
killed herself. Because that's how I felt a lot of times. You know<br />
there was one night…I uh…you know<br />
I was just to cross, you know I was just very cross. I think that<br />
was… before I left him, that's when… you know, it's I think it's after she spoke to me when<br />
I...you know,<br />
then<br />
the anger only came out, you know it?<br />
INT ERVIEWER: After speaking to the psychologist.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja. Then only I started getting cross. You know I'm lying and I'm thinking of this man and he's<br />
lying<br />
and snoring there next to me. And I got up and fetch a knife, you know (rapid, angry tone of voice).<br />
And<br />
I though, you know, and I'm… you know, you know the hatred in me that time. And I got this knife<br />
42
and I looked at this man. Then I thought, no man, the blood. I can't clean the blood, it's gonna go on me<br />
also.<br />
You know the way I hated him, I didn't even want his blood to come on me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
You didn't want it to taint you.<br />
JENNY: Ja. That's how I felt. I thought no man, this man's blood<br />
is gonna come on me. How am I gonna<br />
get it of me, you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JE NNY: I have to scrub all those things.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So that's what kept you from doing it.<br />
JENNY: Ja. That!<br />
INTERVIEWER: But the hatred was strong enough that you could have<br />
done it?<br />
JENNY: The hatred was. I even<br />
had Ratex. I even had Retax. And I did intend putting it in his food. I just<br />
thought how. I didn't know how because Ratex is big… and pink. The people will see. You know you'll<br />
see<br />
there's<br />
that things in. I didn't know how.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So you were pretty desperate at times.<br />
JENNY:<br />
I was. I was. I really wanted that man dead. Even Nicole,<br />
also. Because the …third time… she<br />
trie d to commit suicide she drank… Man, we were sitting and watching t.v. and uh… it's on a Friday<br />
nig ht… and we knew, ag he's not coming home, eleven o'clock, we knew he's not coming home, we not<br />
worried. So we now, you know, at peace, watching lekkker t.v. Now before<br />
he went out, he was performing<br />
again, so with<br />
her, you know. And uh, Nicole made coffee "Ma want tee?" and she made us tee. Now I'm<br />
watching<br />
t.v, you know I'm not checking what's going on. That time it was Studio Mix.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
And uh…I'm watching but… I see Nicole's coffee looks so funny, it's black but white. So I said<br />
Nicole<br />
isn't there enough milk. "No there is I didn't want a lot of milk", you know. And there's something,<br />
you know that uh what you call it…that like uh… … hunch.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JENNY:<br />
And this thing is nagging, man, look at the coffee, you know there's something that's just telling<br />
me look at the… And you know a long time I weren't worried but… something is pressing me, look at the<br />
coffee.<br />
And I… put my tee down and I looked and I said: "Nicole,… but what's wrong with your coffee,<br />
why it looks so funny?" And… Nicole is start shivering, Nicole is pale already,<br />
because it was, the coffee<br />
was so<br />
much, then it was, it was in such a mug (pointing to a cup on the table). And uh… the mug is half<br />
already. "Nicole, please, what is in this coffee?" She said: "How do Mommy know?" I said: " No I don't<br />
know, but it's something that's…nagging<br />
here on… What is in that coffee?" Tablets. Capsules.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Shish.<br />
JENNY:<br />
I don't know how much capsules was in that coffee. Imagine hot coffee. And you know hot coffee<br />
and,<br />
and antibiotics it … goes very…it spreads very fast through your system. I know another man nearly<br />
had a heart attack. He's heart nearly went and stopped. And you know that Nicole's… tongue… was already<br />
swollen?<br />
And I jumped and I thought: "Oh God this man isn't here, what am I gonna do and it's all<br />
through<br />
him."<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
43
JENNY: You know.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So immediately,<br />
you linked it to him.<br />
JENNY: Ja, Ja. And uh… No then I already she was at this sessions already.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Already going for counselling.<br />
JENNY: And uh… No she weren't yet. She weren't yet. And uh…<br />
I know I got cross for him. And I<br />
tho ught:<br />
"Jenie, it's through this man, where's he now. He's not here, he's with that woman and, you know, I<br />
must<br />
struggle alone".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JENNY: And I'm by the front door then I'm by the back door, you know. Nobody, and I'm thinking what<br />
am I gonna do, my child is gonna<br />
die there inside. And uh.. man I got, you know, this packets of soups.<br />
Then I remember they say soup is thick…you<br />
now, you must get something down their throat. And milk. I<br />
first<br />
gave her milk. The milk was running so down, it couldn't go in because her tongue is swollen already.<br />
And<br />
uh… Feroza, did you make already of… - you know I had a fright, I couldn't wait for the water to boil<br />
- cold<br />
soup. Oh the water was luke warm (laughs). Soup. From this packet soup, I made that one. And I<br />
threw<br />
it down her throat. I forced it down her throat.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
With a teaspoon, I kept the teaspoon down and I threw it down her throat. And uh that, then after<br />
tha t, you know when that went down then I gave her salt water that she started vomiting. And uh…then<br />
you had to see all the tablets.. that<br />
she drank. That she drank that I didn't know about, you know?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Then it was as if God said: "Now look what all is in there". You know? And… then I …that is<br />
also<br />
when I really started getting now dik of this man. And I just didn't know where to go, what to do.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JENNY: And uh that was the Friday night. The next Sunday… then he carried on again with<br />
her.<br />
He was hitting her and kicking her and hitting her and me also. The whole day, then we don't go out.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JE NNY: We stayed in that house.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So you were quite isolated also. Nobody.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja, Ja! He didn't want us to have friends, nothing. We had to just stay so in that house. We<br />
couldn't go nowhere. This man just kept us there in the house. And that Sunday, we couldn't budge, we, we<br />
stayed there in that house. And he carried on. And he's kicking and he's hitting and he's throwing the cups<br />
broken. You know, he just carried on like a whitch. And uh… man, here my brother came. Oh my brother<br />
used to… now it was his daughters first birthday<br />
ag his son's first birthday party. We couldn't evens go to<br />
that. That's<br />
how that man was. You know if there was family functions we couldn't go. We had to stay<br />
there<br />
at home. We couldn't go.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
He kept you from going.<br />
44
JENNY: Ja, and uh so he brought me now, you know…custard, he brought me now things from the party.<br />
And<br />
uh, because I like make that child big. And I couldn't even go to his first birthday party. And all of<br />
them's<br />
hearts was sore, now why… I'm not there. But now he knew.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Your brother?<br />
JENNY: He came there. Uh. Oh he knew how's<br />
he, he used to sommer swear in front of them. Ja. And<br />
uh…then he brought… that things out for me. Here, Nicole is again looking… Nicole what's wrong. Turps<br />
(turpentine).<br />
She drank turps. That was the fourth time.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
With turps.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Only how many days after the tablets.<br />
JENNY: Ja. Turps. And you must<br />
know I didn't tell nobody.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
About the attempt.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja. About the other things, I didn't tell nobody. I just…<br />
INTERVIEWER: That's a lot you kept to yourself.<br />
JENNY: Ja. I mean, I. Even if I tell him, he would have hit her. And he would have<br />
hit me. He'd say it's<br />
through<br />
me.<br />
I made her do it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
You know. He, he put all the blame on me. Everything was just me. Jenny, I did this I did that,<br />
you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY:<br />
It was never he…<br />
INT ERVIEWER:<br />
He never took responsibility.<br />
JENNY: Ja. It was always me. And<br />
uh he used to tell her that: "Your mother do this, your mother do that,<br />
your mother's a bad woman", you know<br />
all that things. And at first, she used to also tell my mother it's<br />
thro ugh me. Until I thought: "No man, this child is big enough to know what's going on".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JENNY: Then I showed her, I said: "You see that black woman, your father's busy with that woman". "Ma,<br />
I thought<br />
it's his friend". I said no it's not his friend. "You see that child she's carrying there, that's your<br />
sister".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. So there was a time you accepted that she blamed you<br />
JE NNY: Ja. ( hesitatingly). No I mean I used to get cross but there was … who could I go to, who could I<br />
speak to.<br />
There was no one.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Right.<br />
JENNY: Because<br />
speak to his mother: " Jenny bid".<br />
45
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JENNY: Everything was net bid, bid,<br />
bid, you know. I also started hating the church.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JE NNY: Because everything was bid, bid, bid. Jy bid, bid, bid, maar niks wil reg kom nie.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY: You know that's how I felt<br />
afterwards.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JENNY: And I thought no man… you try and you try and you try and nothings going…<br />
INTER VIEWER: It's not working.<br />
ENNY:<br />
What must I do? Ja. I tried everything. But nothing is going. And uh… So we maar just left<br />
things li ke that and said nothing. But with the terps (turpentine). That was the last attempt. I said: "No,<br />
now I must get you to doctor", because her stomach<br />
was burning.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JENNY:<br />
And uh then I though… "No I can't let my child suffer, through this pig.<br />
I'm taking her to doctor".<br />
Because<br />
then, you know, then I started feeling, you know lekker dik of him.<br />
INYTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Of his nonsense.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja. Ja.<br />
JE NNY: And that's also when we went through the psychologist. That she also… you know, woke me up<br />
further. Then it was now as if she woke me up out of a dream. Why did I stick it out? You know.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JENNY: Even like now, some days when<br />
I sit still and I just think, you know. And I blame myself. I do.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Still?<br />
JENNY: Why did I do it? Why did I stick it out?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Why did I? You know…<br />
INTERVIEWER: Did you find any<br />
answers for those questions?<br />
JENNY: Huh? Ja. A lot! Because I didn't have now… you know,<br />
security. That is a woman's main thing.<br />
INETRVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: And then, like… Even you. I mean will<br />
you go back to your mother's house? (Silence). Now?<br />
46
INTERVIEWER: Its difficult.<br />
JENNY: It isn't. It isn't the same. Now you're<br />
not working. You haven't got any experience in nothing.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JE NNY: This man kept you off lot of things. You can't lay on somebody else's neck. I thought: "Jenie,<br />
here<br />
I got<br />
a child", you know. My sisters is gonna tell me: "Why don't you go and work?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: You know. They gonna tell me all that jazz. And I though : "Hey, what do a person<br />
do? " There's nothing I can do. But<br />
now I'll advise any person: "You go, you'll get work".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Leave the pig. That's the quickest way you'll get work.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. So you had<br />
all these worries and all that but…<br />
JENNY:<br />
Jaa.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
By the time the fourth attempt, you said you're going.<br />
JENNY: Ja! I went over<br />
to my mother and I said: "You not sending me again back to that man.<br />
I had<br />
enough!"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Then I told her of all the times when Nicole tried to commit suicide and all that. So I said: "I<br />
won't.<br />
If Mommy wanna<br />
go, mommy can go. I'm not going back" Yous can get the police also. I'm not<br />
going back!" That's what<br />
I said.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Because they always used to take me back home.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay. But his time you were firm…<br />
JENNY:<br />
I was.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Even with your parents.<br />
JENNY: Yes, I was. I said if he come stand and swear here I don't care. You's<br />
can maar feel shy, because<br />
you know, you get of that people that is : "Oh, they coming to swear in front of our door" (in a whispering<br />
voice),<br />
you know.<br />
INT ERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JENNY: Ja, now my sisters is like that. Especially the eldest<br />
one. And I though no man, hu-uh. I don't<br />
care. To<br />
hell with everybody. I don't give a damn, but I'm<br />
going! And I did! And I didn't go back to him up<br />
till today.<br />
He tried how many attempts. No ways! I'm not interested.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
47
JENNY: You know there was a time I had an affair, that was… I don't know also what the hell happened.<br />
I think<br />
I was actually looking for… comfort ( laughs).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JENNY: I think I was actually looking for comfort.<br />
And uh, we still friends. And I fell pregnant. That was<br />
the first<br />
time in my life that I'd done something, but…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
How long were you now separated or divorced.<br />
JENNY:<br />
I was already a year and four months divorced.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JENNY: And … But I still felt guilty. I mean if you're not used to, you know. If you're not used to doing<br />
funny things. I felt guilty, but anyway.<br />
He kicked it down, the pig.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Your ex-husband?<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja. I was five-and-a-half months pregnant.<br />
INT ERVIEWER: So even after being divorced, he still managed to hurt you.<br />
JENNY: Ja. And I still didn't even make a case nothing. I just thought<br />
I'll …"You I don't wanna do<br />
any thing<br />
to you. I wanna just leave you in God's hands. He'll know what to do"… (silence).<br />
INTERVIEWER: That's tough hey? Getting rid of him after all that pain that you went through…<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja. And believe it or not he still think I belong to him. Then he say it: "In God's eyes we're still<br />
married".<br />
I said no, that god is drunk (laughing). I'm not drunk. I'm very sober. "But I don't think I ever<br />
wanna<br />
come back to you".<br />
INERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY:<br />
No, I told him. I said uhm: "That Jenny was stupid. This Jenny, hu-uh. No ways, she was very<br />
stupid.<br />
This Jenny, you must look at her very nice (laughing)".<br />
INTERVIEWER: So this is a different<br />
Jenny?<br />
JENNY:<br />
Very and hard nê.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: You know life made me hard, very hard (silence). That's why, I don't know, I feel sorry for the<br />
man that wants to get married to me. (Both Jenny and researcher<br />
laughs). No, seriously.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So you… You're saying<br />
there's some changes you don't like so much?<br />
JENNY: In myself?<br />
INTERVIEWER: About the different Jenny?<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja. There is. Sometimes I am a bit… too hard. Sometimes I think they just want to be friendly and<br />
then<br />
I…take it the wrong way.<br />
48
INTERVIEWER: So you don't trust?<br />
JENNY: Ja. I don't trust. I don't. Because I'm just scared… You know how they are. The one minute<br />
they're<br />
nice and then the next minute they change just like that.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: So, its difficult to trust anyone.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sure.<br />
JENNY: So I'm a bit very wary (laughs).<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. It's understandable.<br />
JENNY: Ja.<br />
INTER VIEWER: It really is. I mean you've trusted before and look what happened.<br />
JENNY: Ja, and that<br />
was trust. I thought, you know, I think it happened to all of us. Because my marriage<br />
was<br />
a disaster, my sister's marriage. The other one also. She was married, I think a couple of months and<br />
then<br />
she was away from her husband. She had a nervous break-down.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
You know if you're not used to that life it's a shock. I think I was hard. I was strong.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: To stick it out so long.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JE NNY:<br />
I think I was very strong… And uh my other sister weren't so strong. She got out of it, you know.<br />
Shame, she's still making her children big. On<br />
her own. The one is in six, the one is in five.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. So while they were, like, separated, getting divorced and so on, you were still<br />
going through …this terrible life even<br />
though you saw your sisters were getting out.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Jaaa! And I, I helped her. I helped her. Because um, when he hit her the first time- they were<br />
separated,<br />
she was living by my mother and them, then he got her in town, then he hit her in town. Then<br />
she<br />
wa s blue,<br />
you know. And I took her immediately to police station and to doctor.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
And yet you didn't do that for yourself.<br />
JENNY:<br />
I didn't. You see now, I think a lot, if I had someone to help me. So with my things she even<br />
stayed<br />
out of work. And, and so funny, she remembered it. She said: "Jenny helped me. She helped me get<br />
rid of my husband also. I'm gonna help her".<br />
INETRVIEWER:<br />
Okay, when you were ready to get out now?<br />
JE NNY: Ja. Ja. Then she went with me. Then we went and put, you know,<br />
uh… Get a interdict against<br />
him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
She went through the whole process with you.<br />
49
JENNY: Ja. She went with me to the lawyer. My other sister went with me, you know. They, they helped<br />
me nogal. Because they saw now… No, especially when I told them. You see I didn't tell them nothing.<br />
Because<br />
I though: "Ag man, you tell, you tell, you tell- they do nothing about it".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: In the meantime my mother<br />
didn't tell them anything that's happening. So I told them and that's<br />
wh en they stood with me, you know, they went with me. But this other one, she said: "No, Jenny helped me<br />
with<br />
mine, so I'm gonna help her". She even stayed out of work and she went with me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Um.<br />
JENNY: So I think that… they're support actually helped me a lot. Their support really did help me a lot. If<br />
you… You know there's some people<br />
that haven't got support. I think that is also why they…stay in this<br />
relationship. Now a lot of people, they don't know what is it to be abused. They can talk a lot but they don't<br />
really<br />
know what is that person going through.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: They can always point fingers: "This and that and that and that", but they don't know what's going<br />
on.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So you feel that<br />
sometimes the woman gets blamed?<br />
JENNY:<br />
They do. They do get blamed for everything. No I think they do. Because if you look at it nicely,<br />
a woman do everything,<br />
she's actually the one that run everything in the house.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
She's the one that sees that there's food. He's not gonna worry. He's gonna come to you. He's<br />
gonna<br />
say: "Listen here Feroza, I want food". He's not gonna worry. He knows there's no money but he's<br />
still<br />
gonna come ask you. The child also.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY:The<br />
child is not going to the father. The child is gonna come to the mother: "I want food".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY: So she's actually the main<br />
person in the house. She's the person that they must… you know…<br />
INTERVIEWER: The woman plays a very important role.<br />
JENNY: She do! She do.<br />
INTERVIEWER: And yet so many<br />
women are abused.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Are being abused. Did you see how many women has been killed also?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JE NNY: And that is all from abuse.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
50
JENNY: And that's when I though, before I'm dead. Whose gonna look after my child? I'm not gonna<br />
allow<br />
this pig take, to rob my child of a mother!<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Hu-uh, I thought: "No!"<br />
INT ERVIEWER: So you…you were pretty sure that… he could go as far as killing you.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja. No, he did. He tried it. There was one day he nearly stabbed me. Then the wardrobe door was,<br />
I just<br />
pushed me in the wardrobe. That thing, the knife stuck in the wardrobe. And what, what would have<br />
happened?<br />
Who would have just say no, I aggravated him. He done it out of anger. And what would have<br />
happened?<br />
My child without a mother. He would have … just a year his out again.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
In the meantime he took my life away.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: No, I just got out (silence) Like the elders will say to<br />
you : " In olie getrap en gegly nê", I did<br />
(laughing).<br />
INTERVIEWER: Jy't gegly en opgestaan<br />
(laughing).<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja, ek het. And I stood up fighting (laughing). And I'm still fighting.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Tell me about the fighting that you're still doing.<br />
JENNY: The, the, the trying to help other women.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JE NNY:<br />
There was another lady-you met her already. Remember that day when you and Gerald came<br />
down.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JENNY: And that lady, um she walk<br />
so…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. I remember.<br />
JENNY: I mean she's not all there but you can see the husband… I hear she was quite normal. I think<br />
she's<br />
being abused mentally.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JE NNY: Because how I saw it, when they come together, then he come shout her in front of people. And<br />
that's the same thing Neil done to me. And I got cross. I couldn't take it. And then Jemina saw it. And then<br />
Jem ina take me away, you know. She said : "Jenny die is clients". You know afterwards I said: "Herie,<br />
clients<br />
se gat!"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: I went in I said: "Listen here,<br />
I don't think you, you, you need to be here. This woman, if she<br />
speak<br />
I understand what is she's speaking, although it is difficult".<br />
51
INTERVIEWER: Right. So you couldn't take the abuse.<br />
JE NNY: I couldn't. I couldn't. I couldn't take it. Because everything she say,<br />
then he put her down.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JENNY: I couldn't take it. Then I told<br />
him. I said: "You know what? I come from this type of life. I am not<br />
gonna allow it. If you come here with this wo… I'll hit you out here". And I was really prepared to do it. I<br />
said:<br />
"I don't want to see you here by this office again". "You come alone", I told the woman. And<br />
um…then<br />
she got me then she hugged me. She said it's the first time a woman speak like that to her<br />
husband.<br />
I said: "No I come from that type of life. I can't take it! I can't take it."<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. You have no tolerance for that.<br />
JENNY: I haven't got. I can't take it to see a man doing that to a woman.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JE NNY: Especially if you can see it's a decent person. If it's a piece of rubbish I wouldn't worry.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
And its so funny, this women that is like that, they get all the decent men.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: I don't know how is this worked out. Its just like that. Because horrible women get all the decent<br />
men<br />
(silence). Really.<br />
INT ERVIEWER: So you’ve had a lot of exposure to other women who've gone through abuse?<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja! You see it. There's sometimes when… they tell me: " Is nie jou besigheid nie". Dan sê ek: "<br />
Dit is my besigheid en ek gaan dit my besigheid maak. Daai dae van stilbly is verby" . And I don't see how<br />
you can stand still and keep quiet<br />
when you see a mad woman being abused.<br />
INETRVIEWER:<br />
So you feel all of us women have a responsibility…<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja! Ja.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Towards other women.<br />
JENNY: Ja. I mean if you hear… You hear everyday how this women is… I mean how can you feel<br />
inside? You know, you get some women that laughs. But I mean if you're a decent woman,<br />
how would you<br />
feel to<br />
help that woman that's being beat up everyday? It costs them nothing to pick up the phone, call the<br />
pol ice. Nobody is gonna know you called the police. You don't need to leave your name and number, you<br />
just leave their's.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY:<br />
And say this person and this person is being abused every night this time, so and so a time. And<br />
I'll make sure I'm standing there outside to show them: "No, that's the house". (Silence) No, I'll do it. I<br />
wouldn't<br />
stand still. A lot of times, they already said I'm gonna get hurt. I said: "I don't care, as long as I<br />
know<br />
it's for a good cause".<br />
INTERVIEWER: It's something<br />
you feel very strongly about.<br />
52
JENNY: Ja. Ja. I mean I don't see why must women be abused by a man that know his own strength.<br />
They<br />
know they got more strength then the women. Why do you still wanna do it? Like this show, but you<br />
must<br />
really record it, because there's a perpetrator, but he's got a hood on, nê, they don't show his face. He<br />
spoke<br />
very nice and I admired him. He abused women and he said what drived them to do it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: Because they feel inferior.<br />
And it is the truth. Then I didn't realize it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: And this man was sitting and<br />
speaking to me, you know next to me. He was sitting next to me.<br />
An d he was sitting… And I though:<br />
"Jenie, but this is mos the truth, that is how… You know, as he was<br />
speaking I saw Neil.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Really.<br />
JE NNY: All that points- was Neil.<br />
IN TERVIEWER: It applied to him.<br />
JENNY: Ja. They don't want you to be cleverer<br />
than them, you know. Because he always used to put me<br />
off.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY:<br />
You know. You know. Whenever people used to speak I used to withdraw. But now I'm no more<br />
like that.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY:<br />
I uh… can now speak freely in company. At first I used to… worry because if he come he used<br />
to put<br />
me off. If I just say something… then he… There was times, like if uh…you know, they all sitting<br />
there…their wives and they like, t he men is drinking. He would sommer get up and throw the glass of bear<br />
in my face. Thinking nothing about it.<br />
INTERVIEWER: In company.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja. And that is all things I wouldn't forget. That is all things of what he stripped me. He stripped<br />
me of my dignity, you know. He stripped me of a lot of things. And that is something, I don't think I'll be<br />
able<br />
to forgive him for.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay. Can you forgive him for the physical abuse?<br />
JENNY: No, I did forgive him. But the forgetting.<br />
The forgetting. No, not the forgetting. I can't.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
That's a different story.<br />
JENNY: Ja. You can't. I mean that<br />
was… No man… That… No man… That's a animal man. You can't….<br />
I mean to hit another person's child like that, you know. And then, you still think, you expect, you still<br />
wanna<br />
sleep with her. You still hit her to sleep also with you.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
You know.<br />
53
INTERVIEWER: Cruel.<br />
JENNY: Ja! No, man. You know that<br />
was terrible. Jee! Whiskas, I used to hate… You know I even<br />
hate…started<br />
hating sex also.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY:<br />
And I did hate it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY: And now I'm still getting<br />
cold towards it. Really.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Because you associate it with….<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja. No I am still really cold towards it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: I am still like a fridge (laughs). I don't know whether<br />
I'll defrost (laughs). I suppose when I<br />
defrost then all the men, women must keep their husbands away from me (laughs).<br />
INTER VIEWER: Then you gonna get loose (laughs).<br />
JENNY:<br />
Then I'm bad (laughs). But hey, at the moment, wow, I'm like a fridge. And I am.<br />
INTER VIEWER: Ja. Jenny you experienced a lot of pain but you're still able to laugh. Tell me about<br />
being<br />
able to laugh.<br />
JENNY:<br />
It's, like… when you made peace with yourself. I did. I did. I mean it happened. There's nothing I<br />
can do<br />
about it now. I allowed it to happen to me. I did.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: I did allow it. I mean if I was lets say more educated in that direction…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: I would have been able to do<br />
something about it, but I just sat there, you know. I was like a, a<br />
dead person. I just allowed everything<br />
to happen around me. You know I done nothing about it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: I just sat and looked. You<br />
know I was like a zombie.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
You didn't believe that you could do something.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja. I was like a zombie and… At least what thing it didn't come so was to like, bring her in the<br />
hou se and come sleep with her in front of me.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JENNY: You know, that was the only thing that he, at least, didn't do. But I think<br />
if he had to do that I<br />
would<br />
have also just sit and look at him. And do nothing about it.<br />
54
INTERVIEWER: Mm. You were like a zombie you said.<br />
JENNY: Ja. I just sat and I allowed things to go on and on and on. If I had<br />
to, from the word go, put my<br />
thumb<br />
down and say: "This is it"!<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: Things would have been different.<br />
But I allowed it. I did allow it. I did allow all this things to<br />
happen. That's why in fact I didn't blame my daughter for blaming me. Because I was the one…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
You did feel a sense of you could have done things differently.<br />
JENNY: Ja. I did. If had to… you know, think straight that time. I could have got out, got out of that,<br />
you know, this, that type of relationship, I would have got out of it sooner.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
But it was a difficult situation in which to think straight, hey?<br />
JENNY: Ja, it was, hey. He didn't even give you a chance to think. Because every day was abuse.<br />
There<br />
weren't<br />
one day. Not one day. And that is the honest truth.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So you say there wasn't a day's peace in the house.<br />
JE NNY: Hu-uh. Every day. No man, hu-uh. I mean every day, every day. No but that's the honest truth.<br />
Not one<br />
day was there a day a day where I could say: "Ho, it was so nice", you<br />
know. We enjoyed<br />
ourselves;<br />
we actually sat and we were talking.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Not one day! You sit and talk and man, hardly five minutes, just like that, then he start. Or<br />
everything was nice, then he go and sleep. Hey, when that man<br />
get up there.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ho! that man coogies. You know. Then up on guard. Hey, then that man start. After that<br />
we were on guard. Every day. Each and every hour, when that man is around. When he's not at home it felt<br />
like heaven. Hey no, really. It’s a sin to think like that but that's how it felt.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
If that man sleep out for a weekend, ho then it was Christmas. No it was Christmas. You know<br />
New<br />
Year. New Year's Eve….Everybody's having a nice time, you know. Others is going out camping, you<br />
know.<br />
He had a car. He never ever took us out camping. Never.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JE NNY: He had a car. But every year: "Jenny, I'm taking friends, they're paying me". In the<br />
meantime<br />
then we know what friends is it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: But now me and Nicole didn't worry. It's peace for us.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY:<br />
When he takes his friends camping. We know what friends is it. His girlfriend and her family.<br />
55
INTERVIEWER: Right.<br />
JENNY: And he used to tell me to pack<br />
him food and I pack it. And you know…<br />
Just<br />
to get rid of him.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So him being<br />
away from you was a relieve.<br />
JENNY: Peace. Peace, ja. Ho, then me and Nicole stay so nice. When that man<br />
go and work, ho then we<br />
feel so<br />
lekker. But when its time for him to come from work than it is as if… you know, your spirits<br />
dampen<br />
immediately. Then you just think: "Huh! This man is coming now from work". Or Nicole come in<br />
then<br />
she say: "Mommy, Mommy, did Mommy see what time is it again?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So you had uh… sort of a pattern that you had to follow already?<br />
JENNY: Ja!<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
If he comes, you must be at attention.<br />
JENNY: Prim and proper.<br />
Ho just…Ja, at his attention. Although I'm at his attention, then the things still<br />
come<br />
flying over my head.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
You know.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So there's nothing<br />
you could have done to avoid it.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Hu-uh. No, no, no .<br />
INTERVIEWER: Even though you tried.<br />
JENNY:<br />
At night, you wouldn't believe it. At night time you had to put his clothes right. His<br />
socks, his boots, his trouser, his…everything<br />
had to be right. I get up five o'clock, he leaves half-past-five.<br />
I make him sandwiches, his flask, you know,<br />
for him to go to work. And uh then I …Its winter. Now we<br />
had this asbes heater, then I must put his tracksuit…trouser<br />
that he puts under his jeans, then I must put that<br />
over<br />
the hitter to get hot.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So you took care of him like a child.<br />
JENNY:<br />
I had to. When he get up then his wash water is right, his… even water for him to clean his teeth<br />
with…<br />
was right. His water is right for him just to wash.<br />
INTERVIEWER: It was almost like<br />
you were the mother and he was the child.<br />
JENNY: Ja. When that man go out in the morning you feel the… you can<br />
even feel the peace in the house.<br />
Really<br />
you feel the… you feel the tension going out of the house.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: Sometimes that time of the morning then that man start with his things. Then<br />
he start looking<br />
56
again, he look for faults.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JENNY: In the meantime that was the time<br />
he would go camping out. With his girlfriend and the children.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: And the lunches that I must<br />
pack so for him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: Then I must put extra lunch<br />
in but something different from it.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JENNY: Five o'clock in the morning. And our house was like a fridge. Then I must stand and<br />
make that<br />
man egg-bread. And you must know that…Oh, sorry (Blows her nose). Ja. Where was I again?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
You were saying how you had to do all these things.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja. And then put all his things right. His fruit, his pudding.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So you tried to do what…<br />
JENNY:<br />
I tried to please him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Whatever it took to please him.<br />
JENNY: Ja, I tried to please him. I did I tried everything, you know. I mean just for peace, not for his<br />
love.<br />
Because I hated him then already. I did hate<br />
him. You know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY:<br />
I really did hate him. But… just for peace. Just for peace sake. Even for him to leave Nicole. I<br />
used to do anything for him. You know just<br />
to, not to go on with Nicole. I was like actually protecting her.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: You know from his abuse.<br />
I mean jenie, I didn't go through it, now my child must go through that<br />
hell.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY: Because I mean really that<br />
was hell. That's why I told Xavier (daughter's boyfriend) I said:<br />
"Please, my child come from that type<br />
of life, you don't do nothing to hurt her, because really, really I'll<br />
kill<br />
you".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JENNY: No, I'll, really will hurt him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
I think he's aware of it. Nicole is also aware of it. She knows it. And she always say: "Mommy,<br />
57
you know Xavier, his soft". And I say: "Ja but they can change!" (laughs).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja. So you're very, very wary.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So you're not taking any chances.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja, so I think I must also now a bit let go.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay. So you feel it's sometimes extreme.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja. Just now I do something to harm their…<br />
INTERVIEWER: …relationship.<br />
JENNY: Ja. I don't think I want that because they long together, they<br />
understand each other and that.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So Jenny, you do believe things<br />
can be different for other peolple.<br />
JENNY:<br />
It can.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sometimes a marriage can work.<br />
JENNY: It can. It can. It can.<br />
That's when they put down the ground rules, form the word go. Don't let a<br />
man… control you and you don't control a man. Because you get a lot of women that abuse men.<br />
INTERBVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Like my sister-in-law in Cape Town. She abuse my brother, ag, and he's such a sweet person.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: Oh, he's a sweet person. I know<br />
…When I was away from my husband, they had to send me away<br />
from<br />
him because every time the phone ring, I used to…you know… I… how can I say …used to like uh…<br />
I used<br />
to get sick. I used to become the most miserable person you can get, the minute that phone ring and I<br />
think its him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Then I start shivering, you know. And they were like actually scared I'm gonna get a nervous<br />
break-down<br />
or a heart attack.<br />
INTERVIEWER: While<br />
you were separated.<br />
JENNY: Ja. Ja. And uh. Because I think<br />
I wasn't so much worried of myself. I was worried of, I was more<br />
sca red<br />
for Nicole' sake, you know. That they had to send me to Cape Town. And when I came in Cape<br />
Town,<br />
my…sister-in-law was busy abusing my brother.<br />
INT ERVIEWER: So you, you realize it works both ways?<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja. So I gave her a good hiding.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
You will not tolerate any kind of abuse, form a man or a woman.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja, I couldn’t take it. I told her. I said: "No man, you know what…" No I actually I explained it<br />
58
very nice to her. I said: "You know what, you know my husband is a piece of rubbish". I said: " What do<br />
this man do?" I said: "Have he got other girlfriends?-No. What do he do? Do he spend more time with his<br />
friends?-<br />
No". Then I asked her: "Now, what do you want? I mean this is a good man. If he comes from<br />
work<br />
he starts the pots. He's like a woman. If he put down his bag, like a woman if she comes home she put<br />
down<br />
her bag and she start cooking. This is what this man do. He start washing your children. What do you<br />
want"?<br />
(Silence). You know I think that actually made me see black.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: Then I gave her a good hiding.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So, Jenny a lot of members of your<br />
family have actually been through abuse. Your<br />
brother,<br />
your sisters and yourself.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Mm.<br />
IN TERVIEWER: And yet you don't come from that kind of family.<br />
JE NNY: No. And you know, now the other day at the show… They this Lisa Venter said uh… Vetten, you<br />
know<br />
her.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Yes, yes, ja.<br />
JENNY:<br />
She was with us on the show. And she said uh…Its usually …Uh I don't know who said so, one<br />
of them (speaking herself<br />
in a whispering voice). Said its usually if you come out of such uh…house.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
You tend to attract… You know, people that abuse you. And I couldn't get a hold of the mike…I<br />
would<br />
have really told her its not the truth.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
(Silence). Because there was to man…much people ready to answer her there.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Oh. So, she was saying if you come<br />
out of an abusive home you will get into an<br />
abusive relationship?<br />
JENNY:<br />
You attract …<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
But you are saying…<br />
JENNY:<br />
Its not the truth.<br />
INTERVIEWER: You came out of a house where there wasn't any abuse.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja.<br />
INTERVIEWER: And yet three members of your family….<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
…were in abusive relationships.<br />
JENNY: Ja. Because<br />
we were stupid. We couldn't see the signs of abuse.<br />
59
INTERVIEWER: So you think maybe you grew up very protected?<br />
JENNY: My… We were. My mother and them did. They didn't allow us to have friends<br />
outside.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So you didn't know about abuse.<br />
JE NNY: We didn't know what's going on outside. If they allowed us to be more…Have friends more on<br />
the outside.<br />
To see what goes on in other homes.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JENNY: I mean we would have seen<br />
the difference.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JENNY: No, this is now this, that is now that, you know. We would have …You know have a different<br />
per spective of life. Especially of abuse.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: But I mean… Living in a house where you<br />
just… don't know what's going on around you. We<br />
were just…in that house. They didn't want us to have friends outside.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Ja, and that was trust. I thought, you know, I think it happened to all of us. Because my marriage<br />
was a disaster, my sister's marriage. The other one also. She was married, I think a couple<br />
of months and<br />
then she was away from her husband.<br />
She had a nervous break-down.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
You know they made a big mistake. And that's what I didn't do when Nicole was growing up. I<br />
didn't<br />
do that. If he's not at home I used to let her go out and play. I didn't keep her in the house.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. You exposed<br />
her to people.<br />
JENNY: Ja, because my father told me to. He said: "You don't let you're child grow up for yourself; you<br />
let her grow up for the world". And I did. When she was small I used to keep her in the house. And then he<br />
told me that. I think he must have seen it. You know, where do they're mistake lay.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right, right.<br />
JENNY: Uh.<br />
INETRVIEWER:<br />
Okay. (Silence). Jenny, is there anything you would like to add about the experience of<br />
leaving<br />
an abusive relationship as a "Coloured" woman. Anything important that you feel…<br />
JENNY:<br />
You mean that why they must leave him?<br />
INTERVIEWER: Anything. Any, any final<br />
thought on what you think is important about…<br />
JENNY:<br />
No, I…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
…the experience of leaving abusive relationships.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Why they must leave?<br />
60
JENNY: Just leaving, just how you experienced it.<br />
JENNY: No, I think that is the biggest escape she can make in life.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: Because from there she can…. There is another life out there for themselves. That isn't the only<br />
life they<br />
have, The abusive relationship. It's not. Because you can get yourself a different life outside, on<br />
the outside. You can become something that you wanted to be.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JE NNY: Because a lot of times in a marriage, you can't become the person you want to be because the<br />
husband… especially in a abusive…they<br />
keep you.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JENNY:They don't want you to be exposed to other people. They<br />
want you to, you know, just like hold<br />
you back. In the meantime you don't<br />
know the potential you have to do something.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JE NNY: An uh, another thing is, the community need a lot of people like that. You know, like if you leave<br />
the relationship,<br />
you can always teach other women.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: That you can make a life for yourself out there. You don't<br />
have to stick to it. It's not<br />
unnecessary for women to stick to that relationships. I don't see why must they.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JENNY:<br />
I'm not gonna be like other women that don't know what is…what it is to be abused and<br />
just say: "No if I'm them I'll leave him". No I wouldn't!<br />
INTERVIEWER: Right.<br />
JENNY: But I'll, I'll try and encourage them…to leave him. They must also break the silence.<br />
They<br />
mustn't just keep quiet. They must break it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: They must go to the police.<br />
They must have him… arrested. Not just sit back and relax<br />
eve ry time. They think it's gonna be better the next time. The next time it's through. Like, remember there<br />
was<br />
a poem I showed you of that as time went on the only flowers she got was on her grave.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JENNY: They kill you. Abuse lead<br />
to, to murder.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Because he see you doing nothing. You're just sitting there. Obviously he, he's becoming irritated<br />
because<br />
he want you to do something. I think a lot their, their, the way they carry on, they want you to fight<br />
back.<br />
61
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JENNY: But now they see you're doing nothing, that’s why they continue. Because they want you to<br />
retaliate<br />
but you don't, you just sitting there looking at him. So they must do something. They mustn't just<br />
sit and<br />
look at them.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JENNY: They must have him locked<br />
up because the police don't play with them anymore.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay. (Silence).<br />
JENNY: That's it.<br />
INTERVEIWER: Right. Jenny what is your experience of abuse within " Coloured" communities<br />
specifically, what's your views<br />
on it?<br />
JENNY:<br />
There is a lot. There is a lot of abuse. But like I told you, the most of them stick to the<br />
relationship<br />
just because of security. Because none of them isn't<br />
working. Because as you know, unemployment is very<br />
high here<br />
in Eldorado Park.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:And<br />
uh…perhaps the husband<br />
is working, so then… Now again when the wife is working, the<br />
husband isn't working, then you get that<br />
abuse also, nê. Then the wife is working then the husband… Now<br />
she, again if you come think, she'll<br />
get no one to look after her children. He's doing a good job. He's<br />
cle aning the house, he's…some of them wash the washing, and they see to the children. Where are you<br />
goi ng to get somebody. Because that money that you get, that little money that you get, just go so in to the<br />
house.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
Where will you get extra money to pay for someone to do all that things for you.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
When they can do it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So they still stay with the husband even though he's not working but he does other<br />
things around the house.<br />
JENNY: Even if he abuse you also.<br />
They think no he looks nice after the children. Where are they gonna<br />
get somebody<br />
to do it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY:<br />
So, I think a lot they must start thinking… different. They mustn't think of him just being there.<br />
You can get a servant there. You can even…there's a lot of "Coloured" people that haven't got homes.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: That will do anything just for a roof over their head. They can get of that people also. They must<br />
find<br />
out.<br />
62
INTERVIEWER: Mm. So you feel that they have other options.<br />
JE NNY: There is a lot of options. Because a lot of times then people come there to the center. Then they<br />
come<br />
ask for…a place. You know. A roof over their head.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JE NNY: They've got no where to go. "Isn't there shelters and that?" There isn't a lot of shelters. Shelters is<br />
mostly just for abused women, not<br />
just for someone else.<br />
INTERERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JENNY: And again abused women, they don't also always send them to the shelters because they're getting<br />
cross because most of them… Make the<br />
case, send them away, the next best thing is that they run back to<br />
their husbands.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay. That's a problem.<br />
JE NNY:<br />
Mm. Because they think if they must get out of there, where are they going to again. They must<br />
go and<br />
look<br />
for another place.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So they end up…<br />
JENNY:<br />
Going back home. No they must<br />
start waking up. Like I woke up, although it was seventeen years<br />
later. You can still wake up now. You don't<br />
need to sit and sleep there and be like a zombie. By the time<br />
you end being a zombie, you'll sit without children<br />
or …dead (Silence).<br />
INTERVIEWER: Thank you very much. I really appreciate your time, and your energy…<br />
JENNY:<br />
It was a pleasure. It was nice to talk it out.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Thanks Jenny.<br />
3. TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH JUBEIDA<br />
INT ERVIEWER:<br />
Jubeida, I don't know what Faisal (Jubeida's nephew who introduced me to her) told<br />
you about<br />
the study, but it's basically about "Coloured" woman leaving abusive relationships.<br />
JUBBE<br />
IDA: Coming to the end of it?<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja, how you experienced leaving the relationship.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Okay. How it started is, we weren't married for long. We got married, we had our own place,<br />
and we had a house, a three-bedroom house, everything in Klipspruit. But that same year his friends were<br />
getting<br />
married also. And then where they were living it wasn't nice because it was in a room. He nagged<br />
me, come<br />
let these people stay with us, they're our age, you know. They just got married, struggling. I<br />
said:<br />
"Fiasal, I don't like to live with people.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I'm very much a person of my own. And he went on and he's a person, if you take long, he<br />
want's<br />
to decide on his own.<br />
63
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: He's like: "Do as I say".<br />
So, they moved in with us. Then afterwards the problem comes in,<br />
now the kitchen stays dirty, the bathroom stays dirty. He feels irritated because he when we alone in the<br />
house<br />
the kitchen is clean, the bathroom is clean.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: You can do what you<br />
want to in the house and here's another couple, you know. And that type<br />
of w ife<br />
was like where ever the husband turn, she used to turn. Now I'm not that kind of person.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You wanna go? Go! Hell, my house is mine. You know that's the kind of person I am.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
But don't sit on my bed - I was very fussy that time- don't sit on my bed, my bedspread must be<br />
stra ight. You wanna sit, sit on the floor (laughing). If my front room is clean, don't dirty my ashtray.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Right.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And what he used to do, he used to come with his friends, just after I cleaned the house and I<br />
draw<br />
my curtains. The house is nice and clean.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Then he comes with his friends. And they'll sit and make a noise and they'll start smoking<br />
bec ause all of them smoke, I don't smoke. And the ashtrays would be dirty. And they go in the spareroom,<br />
they play games and everything till late. And I said: " Faisal but you're not, it's not fair, you're not<br />
thinking<br />
of me, you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
That's when the argument started. And I always promised myself I'll never take a husband like<br />
my father.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm?<br />
JUBEIDA: My father was a drinker.<br />
He used to beat my mom. My mom left him… when I was<br />
three.<br />
IN TERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: So I said always, that's<br />
what I don't want in a man.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: Okay, here I meet this guy, he wasn't drinking but he was smoking. Very nice person… Okay.<br />
We had<br />
our first… not a argument but …like a lovers' quarrel just after our engagement. And I said: "You<br />
know what? I can break it off". And he said: "O, ja just because why of my friends now you wanna break<br />
it o f. Because<br />
I said, I made a joke, I'm a very joke person. And I said "O, jee I didn't know you had<br />
handsome friends. Because he came with this guy and I mean this guy, I know he's<br />
got a girlfriend because<br />
I'm working<br />
with his girlfriend.<br />
64
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: And he took it to be serious.<br />
"Oh, I'm looking at other men already".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know, you thinking<br />
of a divorce. I said I'm not thinking about a divorce or anything. Can't<br />
you take<br />
a joke? Neefie got he's girlfriend.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: They're gonna get married,<br />
we are gonna married. We also engaged, so what? It's just a joke.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: He got upset and he's sister said to me: "O, you don't know Faisal". I said: "Faisal don't know<br />
me".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Okay.<br />
JU BEIDA: If he thinks he's gonna come make a scene by my job, I'll show him very quickly. There's cops.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Okay. He came and we sorted it out. He spoke nicely: "No don't divorce or, no don't break up<br />
The<br />
engagement and everything whatever. A week engagement, what will people think about it. I said: "To<br />
moer<br />
with people".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Uh.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know I can't be bothered with them. Okay, I thought it over. I said: "Just give me time, let<br />
me think over it, because I I can't take this. I don't take shit. I like to make jokes and if you can't take it<br />
tha t's it. Because<br />
I did body building… and I was with a lot of guys.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And it was married men. And all of a sudden, I must give up my friends, I must give up my<br />
partners<br />
I have gym with.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay. That's what he expected from you.<br />
JUBEIDA: Ja! That's what he expected.<br />
If I see the guys in the street then he gets upset. I can't greet them.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Then its like, How? This<br />
guys are…four years gyming with them. Their wives know me and<br />
is married<br />
men.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: I was the shortest in the club. You know? And everyday I was the only woman in the club and<br />
they…funny enough they weren't like the touchy part, you know where men goes out and want to touch<br />
you and<br />
every thing.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja, ja.<br />
65
JUBEIDA: They used to be my partners. They…we used to enjoy ourselves. Here this guy comes and tell<br />
me you can't do it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: Okay, fine You know madly in-love and can't bloody used to it (laughs). I told the guys: "Hey,<br />
wh en you see me with this man…"They said: "No Juby, we've seen him already, we could read it". So,<br />
whenever<br />
we see yous at the bus stop, we wouldn't greet you like 'hi' (in an exited voice) and hug you and<br />
everything,<br />
we'll just make a low sign (laughs). So we started developing signs for ourselves.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So even they noticed<br />
JUBEIDA: Because they're married men. Because they<br />
had kids already, you know. And I'm the youngest.<br />
And the thing is… what happened is, when I met Faisal<br />
nobody came to say and tell me: "Hey, this guy<br />
don' t suit you".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Uh.<br />
JUBEIDA: Nobody. Okay<br />
my mom was the one that said: "Hey, this guy is not for you". But I said: "Ma,<br />
you didn't like my Christian boyfriends,<br />
this is a Muslim guy, maybe it will turn out for the best, may be its<br />
just he's attitude or maybe, its just<br />
the way he looks".<br />
INTREVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
He will become… Okay. So I persuaded with my mom,<br />
because I'm very…headstrong I said "<br />
Ma,<br />
I'll get married to him because it's a Muslim guy".<br />
INTREVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"Even if I must run away, I'll get married to him, because you want I must get married to a<br />
Muslim!"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: I said: "So, I met this<br />
guy, so why not?" Anyway, in the meantime my mom know…he's<br />
mother.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JU BEIDA: So I … You know when you're young, you don't ask family histories.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja. You don't think it's important.<br />
JUBEIDA: You don't think of that. That is not important because you're typical: "I know it all".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Anyway. So, we got married. That day my mom was very upset. Its like our marriage…the<br />
we dding itself …was beautiful, but I've got not photos to show you.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ha, shame.<br />
JUBEIDA: No, he burnt it out, He burnt the whole photos…If I had, If I had a album, my kids would have<br />
known what I was before I went<br />
into the way I am.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
66
JUBEIDA: Dress. I was a tomboy. And so my cousins couldn't believe, "How could you stick out your<br />
life"?<br />
They said: "You're a tomboy". I do everything. I do what boys do. I paint, I knock in nails, I do<br />
everything<br />
that they do.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because I will watch and<br />
I'll do it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because that's the type<br />
of person I am. So okay, I still whore my jeans and top. Then I said :<br />
"Okay I'm getting married Faisal,<br />
I must start to? Wearing scarves and cloaks". "No ,no, no, You're just<br />
perfect."<br />
Fine! You're my husband, you want me that way that type of person".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA:<br />
Then its uh… these guys moved in with us in the house. Then its afterwards I wanna jol with<br />
this guy. How? Me and this guy is<br />
never alone in the house.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: He's in the house, he's wife is there. You're in the house or you go to your mother, I go into my<br />
room. He's a very, very jealous and possessive person.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
He's very jealous. And okay fine, I didn't think, we used to travel the same busses. Afterwards<br />
me and the girl was working together so we traveled to work. He always<br />
used to leave after me… to work,<br />
he used to come home before me from work. This guy used to leave earlier and he used to come later.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So he had like<br />
no reason to suspect anything.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Ja,… but because why also Neefie and them comes from P.E. also. I grew up in Port Elizabeth.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JU BEIDA: You know. We knew each other from that side but when we came to Jo'burg we had no<br />
contact…whatsoever with each other. I went to my families way, they lived in Jo'burg.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I met Neefie through him<br />
again…once more through him I met Haneef. He brought them here<br />
by my<br />
house. So they that's how we started talking again and he didn't like it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Well fine I can't be bothered.<br />
So uh what happened it was in Ramdhaan, (Holy month in the<br />
Islamic religion)… and I didn't know<br />
I was gamiel ( Arabic word for being pregnant) also. We got married<br />
in February, I think Ramdhan was that year in June, July, it was in winter, I remember it was in winter<br />
time.<br />
And every night before trawee (special evening prayers that are performed in the holy month of<br />
Ramdhan)<br />
they leave<br />
the house. Okay fine, go to Mosque but you don't take a kofia (scull cap worn to Mosque by<br />
Muslim men) with. Now Neefie<br />
was in uh biking. Then they come just before fajar (prayer that is<br />
performed before sunrise). Or sehri<br />
time, (period before fajar during which meal is taken, after which the<br />
person<br />
fasts until after sunset) you know.<br />
67
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Okay, you ask questions. I'll<br />
ask you once where have you been. You tell me "Listen, I've been<br />
with<br />
the bikers, I believe. Where the hell you've been I can't be bothered. That's they type of person I am. I<br />
believe<br />
whatever you tell me. You could have tell me shit also, I believe you. Because I… that's the type of<br />
person.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: And me I'll have a argument<br />
now and I want to be quite and don't care. Now he's a person that<br />
likes to carry on. So what happened<br />
that night, we went to the shop and uh the one girl, that was with me at<br />
school,<br />
they had the shop. And the whole time when we're sitting, they were talking about this girl. And I<br />
don't<br />
know what I said or I just said to him… He asked me something because I got up I said I'm gonna<br />
shower<br />
quick. And… he asked me something because I remember we had coke that night. That Friday<br />
night.<br />
He asked me to do something in the kitchen. I said " Why don't you go ask her". And I walked off, I<br />
turned<br />
my back and I went into the bathroom. And Haneef started laughing.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. And he got so cross and he came after me. And that's when he stared hitting<br />
me in<br />
the bathroom.<br />
So now I'm a little bit shorter then him but I went down…<br />
INTERVIEWER: Was that the first time?<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
That's the first time he started hitting me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And because I went down, you know it was like from the back, I didn't see him face on. Now I<br />
ask: "Now why are you hitting me?" And he hit me again in my face.<br />
And that's the thing that I hate<br />
because<br />
I promised myself no man is ever gonna hit me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
My mom used to tell me how my father used to beat her. So all I was afraid of was my nose,<br />
my eyes. But anyway, he beat me, I went down and… the only thing I could grab was his balls ( laughs).<br />
And<br />
I kept on for dear life.<br />
INTERVIEWER: I'm sure. ( laughing)<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
He was blue, I promise you ( laughing). I squeezed it. And that makes them worse mad. And I<br />
think<br />
that was making him worse mad that's why he kept on hitting me (voice serious again).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
INTERVIEWER: And I didn't leave. And finally when<br />
I left he went out of the bathroom. And I went out<br />
of t he<br />
bathroom… and then he grabbed me from the back. He started hitting me again. And I could feel my<br />
lips<br />
cracking (tearful voice), my eyes are popping out and I'm crying.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Shh. Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA; And I can't do anything.<br />
As far as I know, they didn't do anything.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Because why they know his temper. Fine,… and as I went out of the house, he said : "Just go<br />
68
out of the yard I'm gonna kill you". My mom is in Eldo's… I'm in Klipspruit.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Shh.<br />
JUBEIDA: Down the road is his uncle,<br />
up the road is his mother. And I'm the type of person, I don't like<br />
scenery.<br />
Because I know if I'm running up to his mother he's gonna hit me in the street.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: The people of the houses<br />
is gonna come and look, I don't like scenery<br />
INTREVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because my friends live here up here in the road, its gonna be a big thing. Run to his uncle, its<br />
gon na be another thing. Because that way also there's people.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: I maar stood in the yard and I was crying. And he went on and he went on. He's a person that<br />
can harp on old… shit.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
To put it that way- he harps about shit.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: I was crying. It went on, it was about twelve, I went into the house again. I thought: "Okay, I'll<br />
take out my clothes I'll take a shower". He got me down on the bed.<br />
You know that thin pointed brushes?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Uhm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
He started stabbing me on my chest. That's why I say: Thanks for bodybuilding otherwise I<br />
would<br />
have been dead. He would have cracked it whole, this part here (pointing to her sternum)…<br />
INTERVIEWER: The sternum, ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: He would have cracked it because why he broke the thing on me…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Hell!<br />
JUBEIDA: He broke that brush, the back brush.<br />
And I had that brushes to do my hair because that time<br />
I cut my hair very short. Okay, and I was sitting, okay<br />
I was crying. Finally managed to get out I went into<br />
the bathroom<br />
and took a shower. He went to go and sleep, you know. Still the hatred is not there yet.<br />
You're<br />
just asking yourself over and over: " What did I do wrong".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Why is he doing this to me, you know. What did I say wrong. I'm trying to replace<br />
everything<br />
and it didn't want to come back to me. Anyway I showered, it was fasting (voice cracking -close<br />
to tears).<br />
I went into the front room blow dry my hair everything. I said: "Ag, tomorrow's another day".<br />
The next morning when I looked into the mirror, I saw my whole face-blue. I was highly upset. Now I can't<br />
come<br />
to my mother, just now she would told me: "I told you so".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
69
JUBEIDA: How do I go to his family? What do I tell them. Where does it…where do you start?<br />
You<br />
know I can't recall where it started.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Anyway, I left it. I cooked for the afternoon. Well tha t lady, the girl that was with us,<br />
Fozi, she tried to console me: " Juby, you know what? I would go and whatever<br />
…" I said: "Fozi it's easy<br />
to say<br />
'you go'".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: It’s a thing that I promised<br />
myself:" The day I get married, it will be for keeps".<br />
INTEVIEWER: Ja, ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: It's not for just the first argument or the first fight we gonna have, I'm gonna run.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
It is for keeps. Because why I know my family has got a history of divorce. It's my family<br />
history. You know, I'm young, still,<br />
I'm twenty-five years, thinking : "Okay, life, it will come right".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
The Monday…I was blue. I said: "Fozi, I'm not going to work". But I took the earlier bus<br />
because<br />
that time busses didn't come through Eldo's or Klip Town. Took the bus to Klip Town, there on<br />
top. And I took a walk to my mom's<br />
best friend, Auntie Hawa. She looked at me, she said: " Juby, what the<br />
hell happened". I explained to her what<br />
happened. I said: "Please don't tell my mother". In the meantime,<br />
she couldn't<br />
take it (tearful voice). She phoned my mother. I went down to doctor. The doctor said: "Make<br />
a case<br />
against him". I said: "Doc, how do you go about it?" It's the person you love, you got married to him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Maybe, he just lost his head, its fasting time. How do you do it? He say : "Juby, your ears are<br />
blue.<br />
How can you do this to yourself. I said: "Ag, it will come right Doc". You know? And uh… I went<br />
home.<br />
Then my mom… My mom's friend phoned her, my mom phoned his mother. As I got home from the<br />
doctor, because now he don't know I'm not gone to work, he thought I'm gone to work.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And uh he's mother got to me. She asked me: "Juby, how the hell did it happen?" I said:"No,<br />
your<br />
son beat me up like this. And I explained to her what happened". She say: "You know what? I think,<br />
pack<br />
your things, then you go hide for a few days". I said it's easier said then done. You have people living<br />
here<br />
in your house. I say: "They are boarding now. I'm suppose to see that there's food for them". "Ja, but<br />
Foszi' s there the food is in the fridge, she can come and cook and whatever". I said it's easier said the done.<br />
The n she… Then only I got to know that he's father is that type of a person.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay. So his mother took this very seriously.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Ja. No, that’s the only time his mother took it seriously. It was like the first time. And I think<br />
then<br />
her life was playing in front of her. How my father-in-law used to beat her up.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Then she told me the family history.<br />
70
INTREVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JU BEIDA: And I was sitting there.<br />
I said: "Ag ma, it will come right", you know. Maybe I'll give him<br />
another<br />
chance. You know. It's the first time, we're young, it will come right. I stayed. That night my mom<br />
came<br />
with the cops to fetch me. I said: "Ma I'm not going . Its my marriage, I have to work it out. I have to<br />
see where I've gone wrong".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Maybe it's me.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay. So you questioned<br />
yourself.<br />
JUBEIDA: I questioned myself.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JU BEIDA: Because why it's the first time I'm living with somebody else.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. And I'm very head strong, you know. I, I'm very short tempered. I say I said: "Ma,<br />
no". My mom is…very hard. She said: "No you're going now". I say: " He's not here, he's gone to<br />
Mosque". Then my mother started swearing:<br />
"He knew I'm coming that's why he bloody run away. I'm<br />
coming tomorrow and I'm picking<br />
you up with the imam and everything". Because I…it’s the first time my<br />
mom<br />
see me with blue eyes. I've never had blue eyes ever. Even with being tomboy. I've never had blue<br />
eyes.<br />
You know. I've never been in fights with any of my friends. You know tomboys get in fights and you<br />
argue.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I've never been in any of those. Here she comes and she finds me. After six months I'm sitting<br />
with<br />
blue eyes.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm<br />
JUBEIDA: I didn't tell her it was as blue as far as my ear drums. The next day I went to work I asked them<br />
how much is it for a brain scan. So the guy told me: "Listen, medical aid wouldn't be able to…cover it. Its<br />
gonna<br />
be a lot". So he asked<br />
me why. So I said to him "Now you know my situation, Doctor's just worried<br />
abo ut<br />
my brain". I said :"But I feel fine. I'm not off-headed, you know I'm not dizzy or anything. Okay, I'm<br />
fine I'll see how it goes". It went over. He became the loving person again. You say: "O well, life will<br />
come<br />
alright.<br />
Redwan. I fell pregnant with Redwan. Then… the second time, he started, he hitted me. I used to questions<br />
myself:<br />
"Am I not too fast, you answered him wrong", you know? Because I…when I'm cross I can answer<br />
him very ugly.<br />
INTREVIEWER:<br />
Uhm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I said: "Okay maybe…It will come right". When my son was born…we moved down to his<br />
mother. We moved…No.<br />
When we moved out of that house, we moved to Bosmont, just before I gave<br />
birth<br />
to Redwan. Everything was okay, we were in Bosmant in a home and uh….No, the second time I<br />
walked<br />
out of the house I said: "Okay, if you still want this people in the house, you can have them".<br />
Because<br />
by then I left home.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Uhm.<br />
71
JUBEIDA: So, it was still early and I walked to my mother. He didn't know I left. He thought I'm taking<br />
washing<br />
off the line. Meantime, all the washing was off…and I walked out… as if I'm taking washing off.<br />
And<br />
uh I didn't go up to his mom. I came up to my mom. I also said to my mom: "Listen I'm only going<br />
home,<br />
if imam takes me home. Because I've had enough with him".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JU BEIDA: "I can't take this or if he takes those people out of the house because why he wants to perform<br />
in front<br />
of<br />
them".<br />
INYTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: So, I didn't go. He finally found out from my sister, that I'm here, by my mom. Then he came.<br />
So I said: " I'm not coming home. You bring the imam and I'll go home. And if you put those people out".<br />
Okay finally,<br />
they moved the Monday, I went the Tuesday home with imam and everything. We talked it<br />
over.<br />
Okay seems like things will come right. We moved out of there, then we moved to Bosmont into a<br />
one room… with kitchen and everything.<br />
INTREVIEWER:<br />
Uhm.<br />
JU BEIDA: It was fine. I was pregnant with Redwan.<br />
And…Then also things was fine. It was really fine.<br />
Until Redwan<br />
was born. Redwan was…three months, then he told me: "This child is not mine". Then I<br />
said to him: "Do you think my what's<br />
its name is sitting in front of my forehead".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Um.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"Hum? When you found me, you knew I wasn't pregnant. And if you count right, Redwan is<br />
born a year after we got married. A year and three days. No not three days, we got married on the 5th,<br />
he<br />
wa s born on the 14th. So its…nine days. I say: "He was born a year and nine days after that, so who the hell<br />
am I supposed to be with?"<br />
INTREVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"Hum? I don't go to gym, I don't see my friends, I'm only with you". That's when we had our<br />
first argument in his mom's house. She did… nothing. After our first incident she did nothing there (Close<br />
to tears).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
His uncle was the one… that stood in for me. He said: "No, Juby its okay". He…promised me<br />
he'll<br />
kill my son. And that's when I made up my mind. You know, "before you touch my kids, I will show<br />
you.<br />
But touch him. You're gonna die in your sleep boy". And that's where my hatred started building up<br />
slowly.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. That is now<br />
about two years in to the marriage?<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
That is a year, going in to your second year of marriage.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sh. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: But<br />
you still have that forgiveness in it, you know. Ag, we argue now, just now its okay, its<br />
Gonna come right<br />
(in a singing tone). Oh, he asked for mauf (forgiveness). Allah give mauf, who are you as<br />
human?<br />
( In a more serious tone).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja. Okay.<br />
72
JUBEIDA: But, every time he asks mauf (forgiveness), I still…I have a little bit of hatred going with it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: And its that…I'll forgive<br />
you, but I'll never forget you.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: That's the type of person I was.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And I'm still, I think… I still down deep, its still there: " Don't hurt me"<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And especially when it came to my son. Okay, we were three months there. After three<br />
month s then he told me: "Hey,<br />
listen, you too long at home now. I can't support you and the child still.<br />
Yo u better see that you get a job".<br />
How? Its like … It's like : "Hey, he's now said to you, you supposed to<br />
have…."But<br />
then fine, I'll go and work. Went out, I found a job.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I went back to my old job. Because why, they were also nagging me to come back. And I said:<br />
"Okay, fine I'll go back to work". I worked, that's when he started accusing me…I'm<br />
jolling . I said: "Yes<br />
I'm fucking everybody by the banks" . Because by Victory, you got all the banks around there. JSE is<br />
Opposite the street, Commercial Union<br />
was there. "So, yes I'm fucking with all of them" and mainly is<br />
Blacks. " So what<br />
the hell are you gonna do?" You know, I became that… aggressive person.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You say something to me, I retaliate with something better. Even if I know it’s a lie, but I'm<br />
gonna<br />
come back with something that's gonna hurt you like hell.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And I knew I'm doing it. Then uh….Okay, it went on you know, comes and go. And I keep on<br />
promising<br />
myself. I… I went once to Legal Aid, because then Legal Aid was around<br />
the corner. Then my<br />
boss said: "Juby, Give it seven years of your life. Because why in your first seven<br />
years it's when you<br />
start… learning each other". Because<br />
why see that time my boss was married fourteen years and they had<br />
the same problems.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
She said : "Juby". Now me and Annette was born in the same year…and a couple of days<br />
apart.<br />
I'm on the 5th of August, she was on the 28th. So, she said: "Juby, my marriage was the same but<br />
after<br />
my seven years it became smooth. You see how loving me and Helius are. You know? Maybe your<br />
life is gonna come right. Give it seven years of your life".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I said. She said to me: "Because<br />
why the first three years it's very hard. Youce have to learn<br />
each<br />
others problems, you have to learn each others moods. It's very hard to live with somebody you don't<br />
know"<br />
73
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know? " And youce<br />
are just starting to live together. And I think that's where I got that<br />
hope<br />
of : "Oh, let me try. Maybe after seven years it will come right".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Although you did contemplate leaving before then.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You still have …'leaving'. I, I had that in my mind 'I'm gonna leave you'<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Shit on me, I am. Because<br />
I can't take this shit.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: I went to Legal Aid around the corner. And I filled in the forms.<br />
And then it was his part that<br />
he had to fill in. He took the form<br />
and he tear it up. He said: "What the fuck do you think?" (In a<br />
whispering voice). You know, starting<br />
swearing and things like that. "I will talaq (divorce) you when I feel<br />
like it". And then I started building that hatred. Well, I don't know how it happened but my second child<br />
was<br />
on the way.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Three years down the line. Okay,…I sill had that "Hey, Annette said: 'seven years' ". Lets give<br />
it seven years. Lets see what<br />
happens in seven years. You're down to three, going for your fourth year. Give<br />
it another three years, lets see what<br />
happen. Okay, the third year going for the fourth, my second was born.<br />
Okay, things, like I said, we had our<br />
argument…but he started beating me up. There was many a times at<br />
night when<br />
I said: "No". Its like when he feels like making love its now, and that's it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And I thought to myself: "I'm not a animal".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: "Treat me with dignity".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know? There was<br />
many a times I slept on my settee. And I had that "Hey, I can kill you".<br />
You know. Then I said: "Hey, if I kill<br />
you, what's gonna happen to my son. I still had the one.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: And here I was pregnant<br />
with the second one.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
What's gonna happen now.<br />
INT ERVIEWER: Ja. There's a lot of things to consider.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. I have to consider my kids… because why my mom<br />
never left us. You now, she<br />
looked<br />
after us all these years.<br />
74
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: My father wasn't there. Why must I kill this person? I went as far to kill him. With Formulan.<br />
I<br />
had things in my fridge with Formulan in it, for him to suck and dry out.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because I experimented<br />
with Formulan already. Because why the kids used to live with my<br />
mother-in-law during the week.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: Right oh. So, its only the two of us at home.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: So whatever, because why he's the type of person whatever's<br />
nice in the fridge, he eats. You<br />
know. And he don't know no chemicals<br />
at all.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: He don't know because why, he's the type, he wants<br />
everything to be done for him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
He's a … He's a man but he can't put in a nail in the wall. He cannot paint. He don't know<br />
even<br />
how to use a paint brush or if he's just doing it on purpose because I'm the type of person that likes to<br />
do things? That's how he is.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I used to fix my own… plugs and everything. I do everything myself. I'm that type of person. I<br />
don't<br />
like to ask you…twice.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JU BEIDA: I'll ask you once. And he knew that if he's gonna: "Ja, I'll do it now Doll, I'll do it now", just<br />
now I'll take the hammer and I'll do it myself.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JU BEIDA: I don't like to… when I ask you now, you'll do it now or say: "Hey I can't do it", then I know I<br />
mu st do it. But I always used to do everything myself.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JU BEIDA: You know. And that is uh… I think that's…One of my downfalls is I want things done, I want<br />
it now. I don't wanna wait for tomorrow.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: That's what he was playing on, because why he know I'm that type of a person. I pull myself up<br />
quickly. Or I do things myself. And uh…Well,<br />
because of my kids being at my mom-in-law I<br />
experimented with putting Formulan<br />
in everything.<br />
75
INTERVIEWER: So, even though you didn't leave that you were doing…<br />
JUBEIDA: Ja. Because why he takes the Formulan and hey, he caps out at work. They can't trace<br />
it back<br />
to me.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: He could have gotten it anywhere.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because I can get rid<br />
of those things very quick. You know. Only thing you gonna get it, is…<br />
do test<br />
on the things in the fridge<br />
and they will find that there was Formulan in and they can trace it back<br />
to<br />
me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: They can't trace it back at work because I never had slips or anything.<br />
INT ERVIEWER: When did you start having these thoughts now? How long were you married?<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
That was after my second child was born. That the night uh…My second child was<br />
born… Yaseen was born. I was by his mom. I gave birth…at uh…Mary Mount. Then… Yaseen was….a<br />
few weeks. We came out of hospital, he was born the Friday night. Sunday, we gave name. I was that<br />
whole<br />
Forty Days (period after birth during which mother and baby must remain at home except for<br />
emergencies,<br />
under Islamic custom) by his mom. No. Ja, I was forty days by his mom. I couldn't see my<br />
mom.<br />
My mom wasn't even at my child's name giving. Right oh. So its like, you look at things, oh its only<br />
he's family.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Not one of my family are here. But I'm a very jolly-go-lucky person.<br />
IN TERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: I agree with every shit. Makes<br />
you happy? Doll, I'm happy you happy, I'm happy.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: That's type of person I was, you know?<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: Makes them happy-my mom is not here-fine, let them feel happy. They must remember,<br />
they've<br />
got girls too.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because I had two sister-in-laws. And they weren't married. He was the eldest, he was…so he<br />
got first married. Okay fine, I'm very<br />
go-lucky I'm a person, I accept anything.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: As long as the next<br />
person is happy. I got to…um I'm like that. If it makes you happy I'm<br />
happy. Fine. I wouldn't object. Then<br />
uh…Yaseen was a month, we went back home. I was busy feeding<br />
76
Yaseen that night, and I don't know what he did but he started hitting me. And all I could do is protect my<br />
child.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I was sitting on the floor<br />
and I was feeding him. And I think that's where I started, really, I'm,<br />
gonna kill this man. Because I'm working just so hard, like him and this our children. Because…Oh<br />
that…What<br />
happened is, like when I want to go bath, he makes the children cry. And you know I'm like… I<br />
don't<br />
know, I'm like a lion woman, you know?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm<br />
JU BEIDA: That hey, I don't like my children to cry while I'm in the bath (laughing voice). Because I<br />
know I left you, you were sleeping,<br />
you weren't crying. How come now I'm in the bathroom the child is<br />
crying? During the day he isn't crying. And I become very aggressive, like you know. Now I come "Why is<br />
the child crying", "No, I don't know, I played with the child". Then he…He was a very jealous person. He<br />
was,<br />
he's jealous on his own kids. He's jealous on his own kids.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Really. And I think he did on purpose, by hurting the children.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. Because he wanted my attention. And then we would argue. And I mean<br />
Yaseen<br />
was<br />
a baby, Redwan is three years old.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Gee.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know. What the hell. And I couldn't take that. And anyway, when I…then I… It was<br />
Ramdhaan<br />
(holiest month in the Islamic calendar, during which Muslims are obligated to fast) time. I was<br />
looking for<br />
a job. Because why then again he started<br />
complaining, he's working alone, there's not this. I<br />
said : "Faisal, we getting along on your salary, you're not earning much, but why are you complaining?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"Ja, but soon it's gonna be Eid ( Islamic holy day celebrated at the end of Ramdhan) and this<br />
and that. Okay, you're complaining and my one friend, Ragie, gave me phone numbers of two pharmacies<br />
that<br />
need some people. Said, okay fine,- I didn't tell him-I'm going in tomorrow to the Plaza, let me phone<br />
them<br />
from there. So that's when I phoned. I phone Melville. They said come in for an interview. I said:<br />
"Today is not, I'm not dressed properly,<br />
but I'll see youce tomorrow". Then I phoned High Bree pharmacy,<br />
wh ich was opposite the Plaza. I'm not dressed properly for the interview (laughing). And I thought, okay,<br />
they'll also give me a day. Then uh… Mrs. Van Zyl asked uh, no not Mrs. Van Zyl, Mr. Bluaw asked:<br />
"Where<br />
are you?" I say: "No, I'm in the Plaza". He said: "Can you come over now?". I said: Fine, I'll come<br />
over<br />
but I'm not dressed for a interview. He said: "Doesn't matter, just come over". And I went over for the<br />
interview.<br />
Sitting and talking there. And… I left. You know. They say okay we'll let you know. Now I<br />
know<br />
that let you know, it will take a week, two weeks, you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I said : "Oh, I at least I went for an interview, I feel better about myself".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I went over. I went to go buy what I needed for the outfit that my mom-in-law<br />
made and<br />
everything. And I went home. I got home, my landlord goes: "Juby, Juby, where have<br />
you been?" I say:<br />
77
"Why? I've been in the Plaza. I'm not long ago but just now". She said: "No, your mom-in-law phoned.<br />
They<br />
said you must come and start tomorrow". I said: "What?" She said: "Yes, they were still looking for<br />
you and you were missing. Where have you been? You must start tomorrow half-past seven". I said : "Oh<br />
shukar,<br />
Ya Allah ( Oh thank God), I'm going to work". Well the kids already started living with my in-laws.<br />
And<br />
uh that's when I started on the fourteenth of July. With them. And I, because I'm a very independent<br />
person,<br />
I never asked him a cent.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: It was even hard for me,<br />
the three months that I was at home with my kids, to ask him to buy<br />
me pads.<br />
Because I made sure I had<br />
everything when I worked.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: And as with Yaseen at the end, I had to ask him: "Faisal, I need pads". You know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
It was very hard. I mean he's suppose to see. Okay, although he gave me he's money. One<br />
thing, we used to put our money together.<br />
But he's like, if he puts fifty rand in, he want's a hundred rand<br />
out of it. You understand?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
That's the type of person<br />
he was. And that's when I started….When I worked…a year at High<br />
Bree, and now we used to mix a lot of<br />
things. And we had Formulan. Formulan was over flown because of<br />
the supply for clinics. We were the whole salers for Clinic Holdings, you know. So, what the hell is going<br />
to k now? So, when Yaseen turned one…then that's the day when I got the apple cider for the cake. To, to<br />
make the…the topping, the icing.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And I said to the guys: "Hey, just give me a small bottle of Formulan". "For what you want?".<br />
"No,<br />
man for my nails, I'm gonna put it in my<br />
nail polish". They say: "But you not using nail polish". I say :<br />
"He y, my nails are breaking, just look at my fingers" ( in an animated voice). And I got a small bottle, you<br />
know. And I bought the apple cider for the cake. The citric acid for the cake. And I bought the Formulan.<br />
And I looked at it. I stashed it away<br />
in my cupboard. Because now Formulan, I used to use years ago when<br />
I was in the<br />
house, because I used to do… plants and I used to inject the…the locus and things like that.<br />
And<br />
like, they stay normal.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja?<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
So, if you want to have a locus just stay like it is, look alive, you inject it with Formulan. And<br />
I looked<br />
at that: "No man, that thing stays like that, the flower stays like that. Hey! Lets do it on humans.<br />
They<br />
wouldn't trace it" (laughing). They going to stay so stiff also ( both interviewer and Jubeida laughs).<br />
They'll<br />
just get a heart attack somewhere. I'm sure<br />
it's gonna work on humans (laughing). And I say the<br />
only thing<br />
that's gonna happen is if he eats it, he's gonna have a burning feeling, because now Formulan<br />
burn.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Because why that I tried on myself already (both interviewer and Jubeida laughs). It<br />
do burn.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
78
JUBEIDA: Because why I had it on my fingers. And if it touch the skin, it burns like hell. It's fire,<br />
you…There's<br />
not even ice. I had my fingers in the ice that day, to get that burn out. So I know what<br />
Formulan.<br />
So, little doses, he'll have little burns. You know it will burn, it's not really gonna kill him at<br />
once.<br />
It's gonna take time. So, fine. And my kids are not there. So what happened is, where I really started<br />
doing<br />
it was I bought ice quenchers for the kids. And uh… I mean, we as adults, I used to bake for us<br />
weekends<br />
because why my kids come home on Friday nights and uh…things like that, you know. And<br />
when<br />
my kids come, ice quenchers is finish I bought them, the chocolates I buy them is finished, he's eating<br />
it more<br />
all. But I'm buying it for my kids. That's when I decided that day. I got up that weekend. You know<br />
he was a guy of playing pool, and I left him. I said: "It's your… happiness, if it's gonna keep you happy, go<br />
play<br />
pool with your cousins, go out, I'm not worried.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Even though he didn't allow you that freedom?<br />
JUBEIDA: He didn't allow me freedom to come to my mom, its always his family only. You understand?<br />
And I'm the type I wanna clean my house on weekends because I'm not during the week<br />
there. So,<br />
weekends I scrub and polish, clean out, my kids are there, you know I'm happy to have my kids around me.<br />
At night what I used to do on a Saturday afternoon, I'll come home, do washing quick, clean up- because<br />
the Friday night I started- finish up where I ended, pack up my washing because why I'll come home and<br />
I'll bath the kids at five. Five o'clock my kids knew "Mommy, we going in to the shower". Because why I'll<br />
put them their jamies or I'll take them out. We'll only take a drive to Southgate, just for a milk shake or if<br />
it's not for a milk shake, we'll just go and walk around.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
But that was …Fridays. Saturdays, I mean, he has to take us. If he goes out after that, I don't<br />
care.<br />
As<br />
long as my kids went.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know, and that's how it is. And that day I decided, that night, (in a whispering voice) he's<br />
gone<br />
out, the kids are not here, I got syringes.<br />
And I started injecting all the… ice quenchers and I left it in<br />
the bottom<br />
of the fridge. Because I only had<br />
a fridge, I didn't have a freezer. The freezer was here by my<br />
mo m. So, the meat was on top and I put right at the bottom, under all the ice quenchers. It's like I, I knew<br />
which ones, so that I don't give it to my<br />
kids, you know. And those were the ones like "Only for you". And<br />
it just happened<br />
so that he never went that week in to the fridge. That ice quenchers lay for a month in the<br />
fridge.<br />
And I said, no, let me get rid of it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Because the one Saturday morning the kids are gonna go in to that fridge and then they're<br />
gonna<br />
take it. And to see my kids burning like that….<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
CO-RESEACHER: It wouldn't be<br />
nice.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: So I took it out and I threw it away. I did the same with the cake<br />
I baked… and its just that<br />
certain ways Allah kept it that "Hey, don't eat, don’t touch".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And he never did. You know. But that's how<br />
I planned. Already starting that.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
79
JUBEIDA: Slow hatred. I wanna kill him. But I'm gonna do it slowly. Because why if I', gonna do it<br />
immediately,<br />
they gonna catch me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: But slowly, they wouldn't<br />
catch me (laughs).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why he eats all<br />
over, you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Uh.<br />
JUBEIDA: And uh…one that, okay, I decided afterwards "No, it's not gonna work, Juby, leave it. Leave it<br />
in Allah's hands. Allah knows best.<br />
Give it a try. "And …Okay the beating was still there, we had our<br />
arguments, we had our fights. There<br />
was a time, one… Saturday. Yaseen was in the car, then he packed up<br />
my things. Now these cupboards goes on top there (pointing to the cupboards in her bedroom).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Right oh. He took all my things out. He put it in my cases. "I'm taking you to your mom. I said:<br />
"Fine.<br />
Go tell my mother". Cause why already, so far that was the second<br />
talaq (divorce decree that is the<br />
right of the husband. After the third decree the marriage is dissolved) he gave me. "I'm divorcing you. I had<br />
enough of you". Shit with you. I said:<br />
"Fine, take me to my mother". Why don't you do it ? I just had so<br />
much<br />
of you".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"Ja, if I'm gonna leave you, you gonna become murtad (a person who after being a Muslim,<br />
denounces Islam). I said<br />
"What? My mom brought me up all these years alone. I might not have gone to<br />
madressa (religious school),<br />
but I know my kalima (testimony that there is one God and the Muhammad<br />
(peace be upon him) is the messenger<br />
of God)". ( In a very compelling and intense tone of voice).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And I say and that's keeping me a Muslim.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja. Sure.<br />
JU BEIDA: "I know what's right and wrong".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja. Sure<br />
JUBEIDA: "I know how to bath me, I know how to clean me. You didn't make me Muslim".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA: I say: "Who the hell are you". So uh… he packed<br />
up my things. I remember that I said I don't<br />
wanna to go because why then he wanted to take my kids away from me. And he knew that is… my life.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Is my kids.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
80
JUBEIDA: I knew… I remember I got out of the car, while the car was moving. And the another car came<br />
past<br />
and they said: "Ja, leave the bitch on the highway", like you know (in an animated tone).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Jee.<br />
JUBEIDA: And uh it just worked<br />
on me. He drove as far as Viking, then he turned back. I don't know<br />
what made him turn back. Take me back to Bosmant. Okay, we went<br />
back home and the kids was with.<br />
My<br />
kids<br />
were a rack. Yaseen…up till the last, whenever he used to hear me raising my voice "Mommy are<br />
youce<br />
fighting again, huh?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: "Huh? Why are you people fighting?" And I said: "Son, we're not fighting, we just talking".<br />
Because why that's how he got into it. And<br />
uh…then already I decided "I don't want you but for the sake<br />
of my kids. If this is what I have to go through<br />
for my kids, I will do it. I will go through it. Because why<br />
now it's my kids, it's not you anymore".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: "I'm working for my kids". Although it used to break me, because why he used to go make<br />
credit all<br />
over. He'll go buy food on credit. He'll buy<br />
things on credit at work and I have to pay.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
He don't think of first what accounts we have. That's when I decided "Hey, Forshinis gets<br />
closed<br />
down. Sales House account gets closed down because why you feel you want to buy…It's good to<br />
buy but it's<br />
not good to pay".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"I have to see to it. So, my name. My name hangs on credit and I hate a bad name on credit".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: So , I closed all my credit<br />
accounts. I closed Forshini.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So, you were quite in charge of your life?<br />
JU BEIDA: Ja, independent. I …I closed my Forshini account, I closed my Thruworths account. Because<br />
why I'm a person, I like to buy people<br />
things, you know. If I like something I'll go buy it, irrespective what<br />
price. Because I know at the end of the day I'm gonna pay for it.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA:<br />
But I liked that, you know. I used to buy for my kids. And then I thought to myself: "But hey,<br />
he's not paying,<br />
he don't care. He wants to argue about money all the time". It's like then…That's when his<br />
mother<br />
said: "Oh, but he's working the whole year".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I said; "Oh ja, Ma". You know. That's the type of person, I will say "ja". But deep down<br />
something<br />
else will come up.<br />
81
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Then I thought to myself:<br />
"He's working the fucking whole year (in a whispering tone) what<br />
the hell happened to me!<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA: Didn't I work this year?<br />
Don't I deserve also?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: I saved my money. Not he's money, my money. And he wants to spend it. I cant even buy me<br />
a b loody<br />
panty…without reporting (in a rapid tone).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: I can't buy my mother a scarf…without reporting (in a rapid tone).<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. And yet you were also working.<br />
JUBEIDA: And I'm working just as hard as him. To hell with it. That's also when I decided "To hell<br />
with<br />
it man. I'm gonna buy my mother. I'm gonna buy for me".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And …accounts…we closing down. Because why I'm paying it and you're wearing it. That's<br />
when I closed all my accounts. Truworths,<br />
Forshininis, Edgars, Sales House. I had all the accounts.<br />
Bec ause<br />
why he married me with those things because I had a brother that I supported. That's why up till<br />
today my mother says I spoiled my<br />
brother, by wearing expensive clothing. I said: "That's the type of<br />
person…But expensive in a way of<br />
…buying on sale. From the same shop. I like the thing but I'm not<br />
gonna buy it. You're five hundred rand, no ways. I'm gonna wait till you're on sale.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And I used to go buy it… on sale.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: And the girls already knew me at Edgars and Forshinis and that. So, sometimes they used to<br />
keep, deliberately, my size, backwards<br />
until the things go on sale. You know. Then the thing go on sale<br />
and I'll buy it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. Because I used to wear jeans and top. Not ladies' shirts, men's shirts. I used to wear<br />
men's<br />
shirts and skippers underneath.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I used to wear tracksuits<br />
which was men's tracksuits. I used to buy in Truworths in the men's<br />
department. Never in the ladies' department.<br />
But that's how they knew me. Because I was half woman, but I<br />
82
was woman.<br />
INTER VIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. And uh…<br />
I closed down my accounts. So If you wanted to buy, Boy, it was cash.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay. so you worked out, like strategies, to cope around this thing?<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Ja, now we gonna buy…cash.<br />
INTERVIEWER: And how long were you married now?<br />
JUBEIDA: That was… by that time we were married…Ridwan was four, going<br />
on five years. Because<br />
why now we're going for our seven years. Thinking "Okay, it's gonna come<br />
right. In seven years. Lets give<br />
it to the seventh".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: Let's go. Because<br />
why now I still had that, because now my boss was older than me and… I<br />
always take advise from people, you know. I f it works for you, it's suppose to work for me too.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I know what I want in life. And uh…so five years down the line. It's still I have to take shit<br />
from<br />
his mother, his sisters, it's like weekends going through…sometimes we go through to his mother and<br />
them. I spend time there. It's a hell<br />
of a argument coming to see my mom. You know. Okay, and then, but<br />
if<br />
he has<br />
a fight with his family, then my mom is good enough. You understand? When Yaseen<br />
was…two…that<br />
was my five years. He had a …that's when he lost his job.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
At Parkenol. Then we went… Then he started going on with my landlord. You know they're<br />
old people. And everybody used to tell me: "How the hack do you get along with Sis Momeen.<br />
I said me<br />
and Sis Momeen, we fine. I get along with her very well and her husband. There's nothing wrong.<br />
But<br />
bec ause why he's a very rude person. He has no respect for big people. During the day he used to have<br />
arguments with the old lady. So, one<br />
night she told me, she said: "Juby, I can't take it anymore. Faisal plays<br />
t.v whole<br />
night. Whole day he leaves the light on". Which is expensive because, although we pay water<br />
and lights, but it's, it's for both of us, you know. She said: "Why must our water and lights be so expensive,<br />
when<br />
if one person could cut off". She say "I'm cutting off lights here in the big house, why can't he cut it<br />
off? "<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I spoke to him. The he said: "Ag, this old witch", and calling her names and things like that,<br />
you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Being very irresponsible.<br />
JUBEIDA: Irrespective. You know he had no respect for big people. And uh, then uh, she got tired of<br />
him . Because why during the day I'm at work. I come home from work. Jir, but this morning there was two<br />
cups, here's the whole sink full of dishes, you know. There's nothing cooked. When we got married, he<br />
learned<br />
to cook. He'll phone me…They always used to laugh when it was at my first job "Jee, you got a<br />
nice<br />
husband", because<br />
he gets home first, because now he's at Parkenol, I'm coming from town. Then he<br />
phone: "Juby, what<br />
must I cook? Can I make baked beans and mince". Then I say yes. "How do you do it".<br />
And I tell him over the phone. I say you cut the onions, this that<br />
and the other, you fry this first then you go<br />
83
ahead. Or: "When you get home, take out the fish, make the tomato gravy so long". I used to tell him how<br />
to do<br />
it. Then he'll write it down step by step and he'll do it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: When I get home it's like he started already and I'll come finish up, you know. Here I come<br />
hom e,<br />
the man is not working, the bed is not made up. Now I mean, you door opens on your bed. Because<br />
why<br />
we had a …one room now.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes, yes.<br />
JU BEIDA: You know. How? He's not working, the bed is not made up. The house is not sweept out.<br />
Come to the kitchen. The kitchen is dirty.<br />
You know it's like, "Oh shit, not again", you know?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know. You know, you're so irresponsible, you feel like "Hey, I can go back to where I<br />
came<br />
from.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja, ja.<br />
JU BEIDA: You know,<br />
that type of a thing. Already you're dik. Now you don't even want to speak to this<br />
person. Then he comes and talk to you. I said: "But you know what, you know, you didn't make up the<br />
bed,<br />
what was wrong, why you're not making up the bed (as if speaking to a young child), the t.v's playing,<br />
you've<br />
got videos standing here, couldn't you just wash the dishes?" Then he started blaming the old lady of<br />
putting<br />
the water off. Then I said: "Faisal, there's such a thing, there's water in the kettle to wash the dishes.<br />
She puts on the water before I come. You could have washed the dishes. Even if I come and find it…wet<br />
but at leased it's washed. I don't like dirty dishes.<br />
Dirty pots, the way you made your food and things during<br />
the day. You don't think I'm coming from work". You know. And then he started arguments. Now the<br />
arguments<br />
are starting. Okay, I'm a tolerant person (sighing). But I'm a type of person, I'll have and<br />
argument<br />
now, I'll say what I wanted to say and then I'll be quite. Then he started getting mad "I'm talking<br />
to you,<br />
listen to me" and I want to sleep, I'm going to work, you're not working. He used to keep me up all<br />
night.<br />
And he'll nag the whole night, yap, yap the whole night. Then old things from the beginning to the<br />
end comes out. Now you have to listen to that. Jong, I, I adopted that attitude that "Hey, I can look at you,<br />
because<br />
why, you want me to look at you, nè, and I can sleep at the same time. And, I, I can do it! And<br />
that's<br />
what he made me… adopt. That… I look at him, you mos want my face, you want my eyes open, and<br />
I'll sleep. I wouldn't hear a thing he's saying. Then he say: "Did you hear what I'm saying". Then I say:<br />
"Yes,<br />
carry on. Are you finish now?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know and he get cross. And I hate if he touch my face. And he knew that. To start a<br />
argument,<br />
so that I can hit him or he can hit me, he's frustrated now, he used to touch my face.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Or my butt. You know.<br />
And that is how we used to start fighting. One night I, uh, I got tired<br />
of h im hitting me…No, he had… winds, right, he had gastro. And I was lying on the bed and he asked me:<br />
"What can I drink? Here's Lennons". It's for the kids. I said: "Ja, you can drink Lennons". He mixed a<br />
mixture.<br />
He threw everything, you know, baby drops, Rooi lavental, Wit dulsies, Peppermint drops, the<br />
only<br />
thing that wasn't in that mixture was Harlemensies (laughing). And I said: "Yes, put… five drops of<br />
everything<br />
in" and I was lying in bed…I was reading and he's carrying on. And… he drank it. Alright I left<br />
him (laughing). That night I was half<br />
awake, when that wind pushed up, it actually pulled him like a person<br />
wh ose<br />
lying straight up in bed, he was right up in the bed (laughing). Then he woke up and he said: "Hu! I<br />
thought<br />
I'm dead" I said: "What happened". Now I could hear the wind pushing up from his stomach and<br />
84
that wind just came out like your whole last bit came out (laughing). And he was uh, like afraid. "I'm<br />
dying".<br />
He was white. He's… dark of complexion, he's darker than me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Uh.<br />
JUBEIDA: But he was white (laughing).<br />
I said "Is it ?" " Ja, didn't you hear the wind?" I said : "No, I<br />
didn't hear anything". In the meantime I heard it all because why I, I became that type of person-any minute<br />
I could<br />
kill him. I even was thinking of putting wax in his ears.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why he got a ear<br />
problem. You know, I was lying and thinking I could put sugar into<br />
the engine.<br />
But what happen if he have to take me to work that morning? You know, I'm not gonna die with<br />
you. You<br />
gonna die, you die on your own.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: My kids comes first. That is how I became<br />
from five years already.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Planning how to kill this person. The hatred started building up. But in that hatred, there<br />
was a<br />
bit time<br />
for love as well.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know, there was time for love. I don't say we stopped making love in five years.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: We still had our love-making<br />
but there was arguments, there was always a fight. You know,<br />
things<br />
like that. I even went on to fertility drugs. To get me… To take that hatred part…You know if he<br />
touched<br />
me…I had hatred…If he touched me I had that hatred. You know it was like somebody had raped<br />
you. You know, that type of feeling.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
That's what I had when my own husband touched me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know that's what<br />
I had. So, I said to them at work: "What do I do, you know". There was a<br />
tablet…on the market for men. I took it. Just to take…Because why when you take that tablet, you don't<br />
have that<br />
feeling anymore. You know, that it's :I hate this person that you're with.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: It's just to keep still the<br />
marriage going.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm. So, that's what you were willing to do.<br />
JU BEIDA: That's what I …I did it. It's not that I was willing to do it. I did it just to say…Because why<br />
every<br />
time he touched me, it's like I tense up.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
85
JUBEIDA: And, you know, but now when he touch me, then he make an argument out of it. To leave that<br />
argument<br />
out and to have that free love going, you know. "Hey, go on, it's free, it's yours, take it! I'm your<br />
wife<br />
(in an animated tone)".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I went as far as that. And<br />
I bought it from High Bree, I bought it at work. And only the people<br />
fro m work knows that I did. But they never knew what my life was at home.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA: I always put him as the<br />
loving husband.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Really?<br />
JUBEIDA: You know, and the good husband.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JU BEIDA: They never knew what I went through at home.<br />
Then he didn't work, okay. Then, we<br />
moved out, Yaseen was two, we<br />
moved in here by my mom. Then he started he's nonsense, you know,<br />
beating me up. And the worse thing,<br />
I couldn't take it, is when it comes to my mom, you know. And the<br />
kids grew<br />
up, now Ridwan started school. Okay, and my mom went overseas. There's times when he can<br />
be loving and there's times when he can be really horrible. He's a horrible, horrible person.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
There was one night, he and my brother was working…watching t.v. Just a simple, musical<br />
type<br />
of a thing. I'm telling you, did they have a fight in this room. That it had me against my family.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Then I said: " I can't stand<br />
off my husband, for my brother". He is my husband, after all.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. And it was actually:<br />
where do you go from here. Knowing myself he's sisters got<br />
married, he's mom's got a four bedded, bedroom house, she didn't want us there. My mom gave us this flat,<br />
that we<br />
live in, for us to move in here.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: She gave her furnisher<br />
away, so that I could move my furnisher in here, huh. Which his family<br />
didn't<br />
do.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: He didn't think of that.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And…, I mean we lived, how long? Nine years. No. I'm now, Yaseen is thirteen, eleven, two<br />
86
years back- nine years with my mom. And every time we had an argument, my mom will hear it. You<br />
know.<br />
And you know how's mothers.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: "What's wrong". "No,<br />
nothing Ma".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: And she…There was a time when we moved in here, my mom really hated this man but I<br />
sticked it out. I had to come home,<br />
then he say: "Why your mom did that?" There was times I had to choose<br />
between<br />
my mom and my husband. "oh, it's my husband".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "Ma, I can't choose you". There was sometimes I did get dik. The only thing I could run to<br />
was: running to the kitchen with my<br />
kids, doing their homework or go into my room, being with the kids in<br />
the small room. "Because I'm sick<br />
of you two".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"Yous are big adults".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JU BEIDA: " Why the hell are you fighting? Why must I sit and listen?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know, I'm always trapped between the two of them.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA:<br />
It's my mom, it's my husband. If it's not my husband, it's my mother-in-law. Why the hell. No<br />
man. I was living three years with my mom. This is when I said: "Here it's enough is enough<br />
now. You two<br />
fight it out. You wanna fight, fine. I'm gonna be jolly". And I became to create that, that<br />
"Oh, yous<br />
fighting? I'm the jolliest person. I laugh and I joke and I go on with my kids, and, you know, things like<br />
that (In an animated tone). I start, that's how I started sawing. My mom's aunt came to live with us when<br />
she was<br />
sickly. We gave up this room<br />
and we moved into the smaller room. We looked after her. She got<br />
better,<br />
she went home, we moved back into the room.<br />
Then<br />
is uh…he got a job at Garden City. Then I told them, no, he's not working. They said: "No, there's an<br />
opening<br />
there, he can work in the dispensary". He got to work there. Then he worked about two-and-a-half<br />
going<br />
three years, he started stealing. What? Drugs.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Jee.<br />
JU BEIDA: Still Pain and that. Okay, they caught him. That was on a Friday. Jee, my life was hell. It was<br />
like hell because now I'm involved because why it's the same company. INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know, we're the suppliers, they're the receivers. So it's<br />
like I'm sending things to him and<br />
he's bringing it out!<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
87
JUBEIDA: "Shit! What am I gonna do". But anyway. Okay, my boss didn't worry about that, you know.<br />
So he lost the job in September. Then he got his money. Now it's …he bought a massive t.v. Just before<br />
that<br />
we bought…I used to buy anything. Makes you happy… I bought him a… M-net. I bought him… a video.<br />
We had uh…thirty-six centimetre t.v. Oh that<br />
wasn't good enough. He's working now three years; "Oh, lets<br />
buy a seventy-one centimetre". "Fine! If it's gonna make you happy: switch on, switch off. Fine. If it's<br />
gonna<br />
make you happy, buy the thing".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Went to go buy it by Russels.<br />
Because why Russels know me. I've deal with them since I<br />
started working. As you can see, I've<br />
got reinforcements on my wardrobe. That was for that t.v. Reinforced,<br />
tha t's how heavy that t.v was.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: With switching off, switching<br />
on. I connected it. There was wires, I still got the wires in<br />
my …cupboard. Right through, into the front room. And it was connected from that side to this side, to my<br />
neighbours down stairs. We got a hole<br />
in the front room, where the M-net went down to them. Anyway.<br />
Then…after<br />
okay, after everything happened, then he went into jamat (a group of people that engages in<br />
religious<br />
activities and conveys the message of Islam). But he used to go out. I'm telling you if he goes out<br />
Friday,<br />
he used to comes in Saturday morning. He goes out Saturday night, he comes back Sunday<br />
morning.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
And you accepted it.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I accepted it.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why, that's how I started hating<br />
him that hey, what the hell, whatever he do, more time<br />
for me.<br />
INTERVIEWER: You cut yourself<br />
off.<br />
JUBEIDA: Ja. More time for me and my children to spend time together. I can't be bothered. I want to go<br />
shopping,<br />
I have to pay him petrol money. I wanna go on a Sunday morning or something's missing, I have<br />
to go<br />
to ABC,<br />
I have to put fifty rand petrol.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Jee.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
To take me to ABC. But his mother phone, he comes and he goes and fetch her. No petrol,<br />
nothing<br />
gets put in. Hey, what the hell, you know. I started looking at these things. We paid…That time<br />
when<br />
he started working, we bough a Nissan. Right oh, that was already our fourth car. Because why the<br />
third, they stole just a year before that. Just one month payment.<br />
So, now we sitting without a car, we<br />
bought the fourth car, it was a…Nissan.<br />
Right oh. He lost his job, I paid the Nissan finish. Here his money's<br />
coming "Hey, you have to pay", you know. "Let's pay our accounts finish". No, he want's to do this , he<br />
want's to that. He took the money, he went into business with his father<br />
and them. Right oh, Nissan… was<br />
paid finish that time. "Juby, let's go into business, my father and them are going to open a … the obholstry<br />
company".<br />
"Fine! How much do we have to put in to have a share". "A thousand rand". To me a thousand<br />
was<br />
nothing .<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
88
JUBEIDA: Now, one thing, or even with my in- laws. My father-in-law is a person, he always has money.<br />
If I have money I'll borrow him. If he has money I'll borrow him, you know, I'll borrow from him. That's<br />
how…he<br />
used to be with me. And if my mom-in-law wanted something to be done, she'll ask me. "Juby,<br />
tell you father the iron has to be fixed". "Da, the iron is not working". My father-in-law will get up, straight<br />
away<br />
and go fix the iron. My mother-in-law will ask, it takes two weeks to be fixed. I want the ironing<br />
board<br />
to be done… Because why they know I do things.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "Da, the ironing board<br />
is not working". He'll get up…he even made a bigger ironing board,<br />
which my mom-in-law got now, still.<br />
Because why I asked him for it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You see like this room-divider here. I asked him…I moved in here, about three years later I<br />
asked him : "Da, I don't have a room-divider,<br />
the one my mom has is so small. You know, I can't wait till<br />
you make<br />
Ma one". Then he said: "Okay,<br />
I'll see". That time he worked still. Then my father-in-law made<br />
me one at work.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Then he brought<br />
it. This one. He made it, he brought it. Then he brought it up. My brother was<br />
wo rk,<br />
dingese… he just got married. I asked my brother just to assemble it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Because otherwise if I had the things I assemble the things myself. It's just to shoot<br />
the things<br />
together.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
But the cupboards were framed and every thing was done. My father-in-law made this for me.<br />
Then…<br />
We had<br />
a good… relationship.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: But, like I said, when me and my husband had a fight, it was the biggest hatred thing between<br />
us. And for all these years that I was married, and I lived by my mom, whenever we had a fight here, I<br />
promise<br />
you,- according to Islam we suppose to have<br />
mahgrims from both sides (guardians/<br />
rep resentatives)-<br />
I only had mahgrims form his side.<br />
He's one uncle, was always the one we used to go to.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
We had sessions on sessions. There wasn't a month that go by that we don't have a session<br />
with<br />
his uncle.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: And where? By his mother's<br />
house. Not my mother going. Not my brother going. Not my uncle<br />
going.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Only from his side.<br />
JUBEIDA: Only his family<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
89
JUBEIDA: We had sessions.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So, even though there<br />
were like attempts to make things better, but it's only from his<br />
side.<br />
JU BEIDA:<br />
From his side. Only his family. And I promise you, that was one thing of his uncle, he always<br />
tried to fix<br />
this marriage.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Né?<br />
JU BEIDA: Until the end. I went as far as telling him: "You know what, Taha, this is what happened, tell<br />
me if<br />
I'm still married to this man? Because why, he gave me two talaqs (divorce crees) already. He already<br />
told me<br />
how my heart is , he tells me Shaitan ( Satan) is my…teacher, huh. He want's to keep on telling me<br />
that<br />
my salah ( prayers) is not accepted, huh?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Wow.<br />
JUBEIDA: He want's to tell me that I'm worse than a run-away slave.<br />
I'm a murtad (one who abandons the<br />
religion of Islam). I'm a kafir (a disbeliever).<br />
What gives him the right, to call me that.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm!<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Since he's in jamat ?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Huh?<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why that was the time when he stared going into jamat.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. So,<br />
It wasn't just the physical things.<br />
JUBEIDA: No, the physical things stopped<br />
uh, like, let me tell you, when he lost his job. Then he<br />
became…mentally. INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
So now already physically, I build up…very much hatred.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: I didn't even want him to touch my children. You know. So, now he's starting to work on mementally.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: And that is when the real thing came in. Because I used to tell him: "You know what? It's not<br />
like you put these things on me, it's on my dress, that I take off, and it gets washed off. Do you know<br />
how …"Ja!<br />
But you're supposed to forgive and forget". I said : "Ja, Allah say: 'Forgive and forget'. Do you<br />
forgive<br />
and forget?" "Oh, but I love you Poppie ". "Poppie se moer. You love me, then you will forgive<br />
and forget".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
90
JUBEIDA: "You wouldn't bring up old things all the time. You wouldn't go dig into my past. I told you<br />
when<br />
I got married to you that what was my past".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: "You knew every thing,<br />
huh? And still you wouldn't believe. And all my friends that you meet<br />
on the street . I jolled with every body, I slept with every body. So what does that make me? A slut". I said:<br />
"You<br />
made me one. You made me a bitch. And that's when I started becoming… very bitchy. What they<br />
call<br />
now real bitchy.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You throw something at me, I'll throw something better at you. And I'm going to hurt you. And<br />
whether you're gonna hit me…Because<br />
why then I was up to that stage: "Oh, you're gonna hit me, it’s<br />
gonna be there now, just now it's gonna be gone". You know. But I said what I wanted to say.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Cause why, before I used to keep quiet. I used to make a lot of istigaar (prayer that is said<br />
wh en you need guidance in making an important decision), tauwba (repentance). "Ja, Allah, forgive me".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know. I'm weak.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. You know, and things like that. But then when it became to the physical abuse, that<br />
is when he was…. the second year at home. After<br />
paying all the accounts off, after he lost his job at Garden<br />
Cit y. Then<br />
starting to get now…He's mos now in jamat. Now it's all going "I just got it". How it started, I<br />
started thinking, you know, started<br />
feeling… naked at work, without wearing pans or top, used to wear my<br />
mini<br />
skirt.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Because why, now, I'm married and what happened is, I got my first dress from my boss,<br />
when<br />
I went to a dance before I got married. That was the first two dresses in my cupboard. Then… I got<br />
married,<br />
my mom-in-law<br />
started making me dresses, you know I started wearing skirt. That's how I got out<br />
of wearing<br />
pans and top.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Then my kids were born. I said: "No, I have to change because of my kids. I can't let them see<br />
me being like this".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: So, you change a little bit. And then he started deciding, okay going into jamat…It's the right<br />
thi ng. That is what I wanted to do.<br />
Okay, let's start changing my way of dressing.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And it was winter<br />
that year, then I decided, "Hey, I'm gonna wear scarf permanent". Because I<br />
never wore<br />
scarf permanent at work.<br />
I used to wear scarf but then I take it off at work, going out to the<br />
91
Plaza I put on a scarf again. Things like that.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm. I know what you're saying.<br />
JUBEIDA: Then that winter, when they didn't say anything, oh, you know<br />
about the scarf whole year,<br />
whole<br />
three months of winter, then I started wearing it permanent.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: And still they didn't say<br />
anything; up till today.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: They never said a thing that "Hey, you can't wear like that". They started accepting. Then…<br />
my dresses started getting longer.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. Then when I…One day<br />
I was standing at work and it's like " Huh! Something is<br />
loo king up under me ( laughing)" . I thought "Am I naked". My aunt said: "No man, Juby, you're patty-coat<br />
is th en hanging out". I say: "I felt so naked now" ( both interviewer and Jubeida laughs). You know I just<br />
started feeling naked.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Then I said: "Huh-uh, it's high time I started wearing pants".<br />
RESERACHER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. And that's how I got to…making, getting me koertas (long, loose fitting cloacks)<br />
and making pants. For all my dresses I made… I started wearing a pants. You know, that's when I bought<br />
my self<br />
a machine, which was also an effort for him. I bought…Well, the knitting machine I bought when I<br />
was in… Bosmont. And uh…I started<br />
making my own dresses. Then I said to my mom-in-law: "No, now<br />
my dresses<br />
have to go along with pants",<br />
you know. And, that's how I started going into… koerta .<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Okay, also that's when we started becoming…not strict, but starting, you picking up on your<br />
Salah<br />
(prayer).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right, okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: You start thinking of…You<br />
know you're getting conscious of this: "Hey, this thing happened<br />
to you in life, why?" Oh, it's because I'm neglecting this, I'm neglecting that.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: My boys are growing up, they're going to madressa (religious school). I can't read Arabic but I<br />
mu st be an example to them (in a whispering tone).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I want them to live a better life.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sure.<br />
92
JUBEIDA: And that is how my life started changing. But now as we are changing, you're becoming<br />
more…worse<br />
then.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: You're swearing ugly.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You don't have no way<br />
to speaking to my children.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And the day… he could push my mom that she fall, that's when I said: "Enough is enough".<br />
When he started hitting the big one<br />
with fists, like me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Your children.<br />
JU BEIDA: No. Enough is enough. This I can't take. I did buy him a gun. I even went as far, to keep him<br />
happy.<br />
I bought him a gun.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA:<br />
I paid two thousand four hundred. I even went as far as to getting him…a license. He didn't<br />
even<br />
go to a shooting range.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. You just organised everything.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I organised it. We got it done for him. You know. Because why I'm that type of person, if<br />
you' re working, I'll get it for you. You know, cause why….And it was like whatever his friend had he want<br />
it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know. So his one, two friends had guns. I said: "Fine''. And then I still choose the gun<br />
also.<br />
"No man, don't buy a pistol, a forty-five is nicer", you know. Okay fine. I always used to… do things<br />
and then<br />
afterwards I used to say: "Why the hell did I do it?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
But I do it. That's the type of person that I am, you know. And the day he put the bullet through<br />
that,<br />
he lost his head. Right there (pointing to the wall), there's a bullet right in that wall. He forgot there<br />
was<br />
a one up in the bulle…in the gun. And I was doing washing in the bathroom. And he pulled the gun<br />
out. I don't know what he wanted to do. Normally he put it against his head. But<br />
that day he aimed it to the<br />
mirror.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
It went right through. When that shot went off, all I could scream was, I didn't scream Faisal, I<br />
screamed<br />
Ridwan. Because why the kids was around.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: And<br />
then the first thing I looked where's my child (laughing) and I just saw him running in<br />
also. And he was standing here, you know.<br />
But anyway, that was one. And that's when he, that's the time he<br />
93
started with Pagad (people against gangsterism and drugs), when Pagad started in Elsodo's. And he became<br />
very<br />
aggressive.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: He used to bring back problems home. Then it's always arguments. And he was a type of<br />
person, you know like, he'll come and he'll tell me: "Oh Feroza got sick", you know. "Hey what's wrong".<br />
"No she's in an accident", this that and the other. Okay fine, that's tonight. Two days later I'll come and I'll<br />
ask "Hey, how's Feroza, is she okay, didn't you go see her?" " Why the hell do you want to know about<br />
her?<br />
(In a harsh, male tone of voice). It's like, "What's wrong? what the hell do you and Feroza got in<br />
common?",<br />
especially if it's a guy.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja, ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: How? You told me the<br />
person is sick or he was in an accident…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
So it's just concern, how is the person.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sure.<br />
JUBEIDA: And especially if it was people I knew. Because now they<br />
in and out now of my house.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Right.<br />
JU BEIDA: You know. They here,<br />
they come, we go camping together. We go places, you know. I go to<br />
their<br />
place and they come to my place. Then afterwards I got to a stage where I don't go with him to his<br />
friends.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Because why, we come home, it's a fight. We go to them, it's a fight. We go to his family, it's,<br />
we gonna fight. I got a finger that I cut. I cut a finger here already. Which I stitched myself. Also through<br />
him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why, he grabbed the knife out of my hand. You understand? Things like that. Then I<br />
said:<br />
"Why the hell are you going through this Juby?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JU BEIDA: "You go and you give and you give. What about you're life?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I say: "You're gonna go cuckoo man.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
94
JUBEIDA: Because why you don't talk to people about you're life. You always give this honcky dory, nice<br />
thing.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: At home. You, you tell<br />
them: "Oh, it's fine". You tell them there's arguments, but you don't tell<br />
the m everything.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. How<br />
bad it really is.<br />
JUBEIDA: How really deep it goes. Because why, you don't<br />
want to…You still dream of a happy-golucky<br />
life.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: "You wanna go mad? Hey you've got children to live for, huh? You're not gonna get out of this<br />
marriage, you're gonna go mad. How long you're gonna keep this up?" And that happened?…On the<br />
mu ssalah<br />
(prayer mat) (crying). I was making namaz (praying) and it just came: "What life do<br />
you want? How far are you gonna go with this? This man comes home, he fights. He goes out, do his thing.<br />
What<br />
life do you have, huh? He don't have time for you, he don't take your children with you, nothing?<br />
You<br />
have<br />
to pay for every thing. And now you're working for him?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: And it's like he's treating you like shit. And the only time…Where it also get worse is, the only<br />
time he baths is when he want's to be with you? Huh? Because why you say<br />
you istinja (ablution after<br />
using<br />
the toilet), you're clean? You wash like<br />
a Nasara (Christian), that there's not enough hot water? What is it<br />
to get<br />
undressed and to get into the shower?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Every morning.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You're clean. Huh? He<br />
started this business with his father, that's when he bought the bakkie.<br />
The Nissan<br />
was paid finish, then we<br />
trade in the Nissan for the bakkie. Because why now, it's for lounge<br />
suits. I'm a person, you could persuade<br />
me, I'll buy it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "You know, we've got no bakkie, we have to get the lounge suites from point A to point B. We<br />
have<br />
to deliver and every thing. How about it?" "Ha, ja well, let me see what I can do. Let me see what I<br />
can get from the bank. What is my money situation. Let me see. Work it out, how much I have to pay<br />
back".<br />
I was always like, "Tell me how much is my pay-back on the<br />
accounts?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Let me see what accounts I have. Okay, I've got A,B and C accounts, okay, that is minor<br />
things.<br />
That I must finish up in two, three months. Oh, the bakkie is gonna cost me so much. Go for<br />
it! (Silence). You understand?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
95
JUBEIDA: We went for it, we bought the bakkie. Oh, but the bakkie is not for my convenience. I even got<br />
him to transport kids in the bakkie. Hum? Paying the petrol. I went and I applied for a credit card.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Wow.<br />
JUBEIDA: With the credit card, came<br />
the petrol card.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: And my petrol card comes<br />
to two thousand rand. And you pay me a thousand rand for petrol?<br />
From the school children collection.<br />
Where the hell does eating and drinking come from.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sure.<br />
JUBEIDA: You bring Dick, Tom and Harry. Now, me, you bring somebody that's hungry, I pack out my<br />
cupboards, Dear. Whatever there's<br />
two of, I'll give one for that person, one for me. Or even if I take my<br />
last.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Hey, tomorrow will see to himself.<br />
I will buy tomorrow again. I'll give, I'll pack out. That's<br />
how I was. And he knew me for that. He always told me: "You got a good heart. But you got a filthy<br />
mouth". I said: "Who made me like<br />
that?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You made me like that. You made me a witch.<br />
That's what I am. And that's where…But in<br />
tha t there was hatred for this man. I had a lot of hatred and I still have. I don't think if I see him. I don't<br />
think… if I see him tomorrow, I will pick him up in the street. I will make him die (silence). Because why<br />
that's how much hatred I got for him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And uh where it got more is, the night when he came home, he had a small knife And he, I<br />
don't<br />
know, we had some Islamic discussion. And then he said: "For the sake of Islam, I'll kill you and me<br />
kid s in your sleep". I said: "What?" He said: "Ja".<br />
I said: "That's why you're walking with a knife?" He<br />
said: " Ja". I said: "Fine, no problem", you know. I said my kalima, (testimony that there is one God and<br />
the Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the<br />
messenger of God)". went to bed. But now I don't sleep any<br />
more. And that was now, coming for three<br />
years.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I'm not sleeping, you know. Cause why I'm thinking: "When is this man getting up". Whenever<br />
he used to move I used to…be awake, but I never moved.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Wow.<br />
JU BEIDA: To listen: "Hey, when are you going to my children?"<br />
INTERVIEWER: Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why now you're threatening my children. You're not<br />
beating us up any more. But you<br />
have<br />
that,<br />
you know, threatening you.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
96
JUBEIDA: And he is the type of person that can do it. Although he, he don't have guts.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: I've got the guts to do it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: But he is a coward. You<br />
know and he's a rude person. Then he get very rude. He went for hajj<br />
(ho ly pilgrimage<br />
to Mecca) even.<br />
And that happened just after he came back from hajj. Then all this<br />
happened.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Right? He came back and uh…Then he become…He went for hajj, we didn't even talking.<br />
You<br />
know, you've never had…I don't think<br />
there's any woman who can tell you that: "Hey, my husband went<br />
for hajj and I prayed, I asked Allah: Ya Allah, let the time go so quick for him to go". And when he was<br />
there<br />
you ask Allah:" Ya Allah, Make the time so long that he don't come back".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja. Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Or let anything happen….<br />
INTERVIEWER: That was the extend<br />
of how you grew to hate him?<br />
JUBEIDA: That is how I got it. No, but still I put that face on that:<br />
"Hey, my husband is going", you know,<br />
my husband. You know. I still made means to get him money to go. Till the last day, which his mom and<br />
the m came here that Sunday, for his packing. And I burst out crying and I told his brother what happens.<br />
Then his brother went home, he told his father and them. They called us. I went down, still the brave<br />
woman.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Then only, I put everything<br />
on the table.<br />
INTER VIEWER: Wow. What made you do it then.<br />
JUBEIDA: It was…I cried. It's just something in me that went out.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm, okay.<br />
JU BEIDA:I<br />
said to them: "Yous don't know…I've never knew that you can make dua (pray) and Allah<br />
acc ept<br />
it (crying)… Then my sister-in-law turned around and said: " Hey Juby, why didn't you ask for<br />
money? Why didn't you ask for anything else. I said: "That wasn't the<br />
thing I wanted to ask for" (still<br />
crying). INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because I came to that close…<br />
And your brother is going away… (Crying).(Silence). And<br />
that<br />
is why the hatred is so. My brother-in-law offered him money. He goes and make a deal with the guy<br />
97
for… to have extra money. He's father gave money, he's brother gave money. But his ticket was paid for,<br />
his accommodation was paid for. It was like spending-money, you know. And because of we had a fight<br />
and a argument still on the last, and he still didn't ask mauf (forgiveness).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JU BEIDA: Then it's…You know I've never seen people leaving for hajj (holy pilgrimage), where the<br />
house looks dark. You know when my husband left for hajj, it was so dark. There was no noor (light that is<br />
symbolic<br />
of blessings) in it. No noor at all. And uh… Okay that night I told them. I still went to the extend<br />
of : "Hey,"… My brother in-law- said: "Well, you can borrow money to go for hajj, if you promise to pay<br />
it in a certain time of period". I said: "Fine. How much you gonna give him?" He said: "Okay, one thousand<br />
six".<br />
I said: "Fine, no problem". I made an agreement with him: "When do you need your money?" He<br />
said:<br />
"Before I go for my next hajj, I need the money". I said: "Okay Tahir, I'll pay you back. In that time,<br />
before<br />
next hajj, when you're going, I'll give you you're money. Don't worry. It gives me a year to work on<br />
it".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "I'll pay you that one-six". My husband didn't even ask: "Juby, is there money for food for<br />
yous? Is there anything that you need also<br />
money for".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
The day he left, we still road, my brother-in-law went to go draw the money. He went to go<br />
and c hange it by…dingese, Rennies in Fordsburg. And then we went through. To the airport.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I still went that far, I did it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: Then, what happened is, I ran short. I don't borrow money. You can ask my mother. I don't ask<br />
my family …shit. Mauf (sorry) to say it. I'm full of nonsense.<br />
But that year I just, I don't know what<br />
happened but I borrowed seven hundred rand from my<br />
brother.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
He was so happy that I asked him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: He gave it to me. Then I did it on purpose, not to pay him back. In that time. Because why, I<br />
want to see what Faisal is gonna do, you<br />
know. So when he came back from hajj(holy pilgrimage)… He's<br />
not working,<br />
he's still not working. What is he gonna do if I'm telling him: "Hey, you borrowed one six<br />
from your brother- in-law. I have seven hundred rand I have<br />
to pay my brother in the next three months",<br />
you know. He came back, then it was a argument. We had a argument from the day one. You know I<br />
regretted…the day my husband came<br />
back from hajj. You suppose to be happy.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Because why, in that time he was in hajj, there was a fire in Mecca. I don't know if you<br />
remember<br />
the fire.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. I do remember.<br />
98
JUBEIDA: The tents? When the tents were burning.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
I do.<br />
JUBEIDA: That's the year he was<br />
on hajj.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. I regretted the day he came back. I was happy for my uncle-in-laws and friends.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Every hujjaj ( person who undertook the holy pilgrimage), because I went to hajj classes.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
All the hujjaj that I went to at madressa that went, I was happy to see.<br />
INTERVIEWER: You happy to see<br />
them.<br />
JU BEIDA: Then…But that was the only thing I regretted. And can you believe me, since he stepped off<br />
that air<br />
that plane…I took money with in case he has to pay for uh excess coming out, duty money, and<br />
anything.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Okay,<br />
lucky he didn't have to pay because why they came that night. But since we got into the<br />
car, up till the night<br />
we got home, we had a fight.<br />
INT ERVIEWER: Wow, coming form hajj (holy pilgrimage).<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Coming from hajj. We had our first argument. That same night I packed out his bags and I<br />
said:<br />
"What did you buy for your mother and them". And I made<br />
all his parcels, the same night. Normally,<br />
you wait the next day.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Uh.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I did it the same night. Every thing. Out. The next day, my washing machine broke and I<br />
washed<br />
his igram (pieces of cloth that men wear on pilgrimage).I washed his igram with my hand. I called<br />
the guys in : "Hey, my machine<br />
is broken". They came the same day. Because why it was a holiday the next<br />
day. His<br />
family came to visit us.<br />
And still I didn't have that much of a wife…I did the first plate with dates<br />
and zam zam water (holy water) and<br />
things, then I put in on the table. The next day I said to his sisters:<br />
"Yous do it. Your brother came from<br />
hajj, do it. It's my mother's house, I'm doing washing".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I did all his washing. But since that day he came back, our lives were miserable. And I think<br />
that is when, the time when he was in Mecca and he came back, when I really, really made up my mind: "I<br />
don't<br />
want you anymore".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why now, you're<br />
using me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
99
JUBEIDA: And I'm going to go insane.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because I can feel it.<br />
And that is really where we…Oh, once a week was okay. We touch, fine.<br />
You want<br />
it? Oh jee, I need him to bath, okay, let him maar have it. I used to lay there like, I could tell<br />
you:<br />
like a prostitute.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: You have no feelings for a person, but you're sleeping with him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. We have to have…Once more, we had sessions with his family. Then when we had<br />
the last session with his uncle it was<br />
really, really ugly. And … then his uncle even phoned a guy in Cape<br />
Town. We went searching for people on Islamic marriages, I'm telling you. I know all the uluma's (learned<br />
people).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Everybody<br />
whose dealing with what. The one will say: "Listen, I'm not so good on marriage,<br />
phone that one".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Wow.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
That one will<br />
say: "I know so far. When it goes further than that, phone that one". And my<br />
uncle-in-law… One thing<br />
of his uncle, he phoned every body. The only guy in the whole South Africa, that<br />
knows the whole thing in Islamic- I didn't do it -Western marriage.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Right.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I went Islamicaly.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because I wanted to make<br />
sure, I'm doing the right thing. What is my rights as a woman.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JU BEIDA: And my uncle-in-law went as far as phoning… Cape Town. That night it rained. I didn't want<br />
my kids to know what's going on. Because why he made me bad. I'm telling you, he told my periods<br />
everything, was laying on the streets. Everybody knews about it. Then, when my uncle-in-law phoned that<br />
guy,<br />
and that guy told us according to sharia (Islamic law), this is how you go. Still. I said: "For the sake of<br />
Isla m,<br />
I'll try it but if it don't work out then I don't know where to then.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Because why he still said : "According to what happened over the years, it's like we're living<br />
in sin<br />
because why there's no marriage. We suppose to make nikah (marriage) all over. Maybe that's why<br />
our lives are so…up side down.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes. Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because of everything that<br />
was said over the years and things.<br />
100
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: So, that is what's suppose to happen. Then I said and talked to myself: "Every night I come<br />
home,<br />
there is a fight. You don't feel like coming home. You're more happier at work than at home".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You get accused of jolling.<br />
I said: "Jirr, If there was just a man in my life that could make me<br />
happy (in a laughing tone of voice). I would have been so happy ( both Jubeida and interviewer laughs). At<br />
least<br />
like: "Oh, I'm getting out I'm gonna see him, you know (in an animated tone).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA: But there's nobody out<br />
there that really attracts me.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Yes, yes.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know it's like dead. The only things I live for is my children.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: And I've got a mother to look after. And her health is going because why he's accusing<br />
my<br />
mother of trying to break us up. You know. And when my mother is trying do hard to keep us together.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Hell. And uh…That's when it just went hay wire. That 1999 Ramdhaan(holy month in which<br />
Muslims<br />
are obligated to fast), it just went. I started moving out of the bed. I started sleeping on the floor,<br />
bec ause why I couldn't take it anymore. I couldn't…You know, my hatred got, if he touched me I wanted<br />
to kill<br />
him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I really, really. There was a time that I was thinking: " I'm gonna sleep with a knife under my<br />
bed.<br />
The minute he touch me, I'm gonna stab him. You know. If he used to touch me, I used to hit him. We<br />
used to have a fight<br />
here, in this room. We used to say ugly things. Really ugly things to each other. And it<br />
was really<br />
mentally, mentally abuse.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Because why he used to throw ugly things. And that man got a ugly mouth. Really, really he<br />
got a ugly mouth. Since he came from Mecca, I told him once: "You know what? I think you didn't throw<br />
Shaitan<br />
( Satan), Shaitan did throw you. Because why… (referring to the ritual during a Muslim's holy<br />
pil grimage during which he or she symbolic throw stones at Satin).<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Mm. It got<br />
worse.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
It got worse. You, you not…I thought, you're gonna become a better person. We gonna live<br />
more<br />
Islamically. I say: "Now that we got Islam in our lives, it looks like our lives are worse.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Shish.<br />
JUBEIDA: I got to a stage where I asked Allah, mauf (sorry) to say this, "Ya Allah, what am I? Must I<br />
bec ome Christian because of the churches outside (in an angry, urgent tone of voice)?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
101
JUBEIDA: "Or am I Muslim?"<br />
INTERVIEWER: Because you're now really<br />
…<br />
JUBEIDA: Which way do I go. You, you loosing it. Cause why<br />
you read hadith (the sayings and practices<br />
of the Prophet of Islam (peace be upon him)), you read kitab (Islamic books), you read your Qur'an and<br />
this man keeps on…Wherever you try to build up, he's breaking it down. And you know, I got to a stage<br />
where<br />
I told him: "You know what? I think Islam is just for men".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And then, then is when<br />
he also called me a murtad (one who denounces Islam after having<br />
been<br />
a Muslim).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "You're a kafir(<br />
disbeliever). How can you say like that".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I say: "But every thing you say, it's like Islam is just for men".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JU BEIDA: I'm a born Muslim but I became like somebody who came in the deen (religion) .<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why the way you say things for me, it's just for men, it's just for men.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Then where do we women<br />
as Islam stand then?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right. Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: Where do I go to? What<br />
is my rights in Islam?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JU BEIDA: Then I got that kitab (pointing to a book on a shelf). You see, he don't like Faisal's mom.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why that's when we decided: "Hey, I'm working alone,<br />
now we're gonna do our<br />
shopping. We go: market, once a month<br />
we used to go to market, Then in from market, we spend the whole<br />
day, marketing,<br />
groceries, all our shopping,<br />
we do on that Saturday. Then I come home this time (after<br />
four). Then we'd load off. And I mean you can see I was no where else, but went shopping.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: You know I bring the proof. You know?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
102
JUBEIDA: And I don't know, what happened, one Saturday when I went to them and I found the one<br />
kitab<br />
(Islamic book). That green, thick kitab there (pointing to a book on the shelf), with all the rules, all<br />
the<br />
masalas<br />
(rulings) and from… birth until death, and, you know, marriage was in it. And I started reading<br />
the kitab. Because why now I want to find out what is my right as a Muslim woman.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: Now I'm starting to look<br />
because I'm reading.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: I thought to myself….Because<br />
why before I used think everything is in Arabic.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
So, cause I can't read Arabic.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: So…You know, he even went a s far as that<br />
whenever I wanted to try and learn Arabic, I was<br />
jolling with the guys. We went to his friend. This old lady is dead today, she used to sit there when we had<br />
madressa (religious school) . Then it's<br />
her son that teaching us, it's me, it's him sitting next to me, her sonin-law,<br />
daughter-in-law, nephews- and her uncle that's an old man…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I mean he's old enough to be my father- was also there because why we all wanted to learn to<br />
spe ak Arabic, learn Arabic, from the beginning to go into the Qur'an. Reading properly,<br />
the tashweed<br />
(pronunciation) and everything.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
It came, I'm jolling with the man. I gave it up… huh? I started…We started madressa (religios<br />
school)<br />
at his mother's place, starting with suras (chapters of the Qur'an) and everything, also his brotherin-law<br />
and teaching. His brother-in-law will<br />
sit there. I will sit first on the floor. And we all will be sitting,<br />
mother and father sitting there. We used to have the things on the walls. Because why that's the time that<br />
his father decided to go for hajj (holy pilgrimage).<br />
So, we put all the duas (prayers) on the walls. Arabic<br />
learning from 'alif, ba, ta ( first three letters<br />
of the Arabic alphabet).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
All on the wall. We all gonna learn. Eager. Getting brothers, sisters-in-laws everything.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: We used to make it once a week. At the end? If I'm not jolling with Tahir,<br />
I wanted to joll with<br />
Faisal. You know, and it goes on and<br />
on. I mean, we family.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know? How can I jol, we all sitting here? And then they leave first, I'm always the one to<br />
leave last from your mother's place. I don't go out with them nothing. I started withdrawing from that.<br />
People<br />
used to wonder why I'm doing it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
103
JUBEIDA: Because why whenever a man is there, it's like I'm jolling with them.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja, you're being accused.<br />
JUBEIDA: I became that, that self effect that "Hey, if I talk<br />
to you too much I'm jolling with you. You<br />
don' t know it but I'm gonna go tonight home and I'm gonna hear about it". I started withdrawing myself<br />
form<br />
the family.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And here he's doing it.<br />
Now I'm jolling at work, with Eric and I'm jolling with Bashir next<br />
doo r. I said this: "Yes, you know what? You're lucky. Actually over the years… you just tickled me. They<br />
giv ing it better to me (laughs). Because why now I know, its hurting him, you know. Because why he keeps<br />
on telling<br />
you.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So, you didn't care anymore.<br />
JUBEIDA: Now I became<br />
to "I don't care. To hell, you kill me, I know I got it off my system. Or you walk<br />
out here, it's good and well". You know? And uh…the night he took out the gun…but he took out the, the<br />
cartridge and he said: "Shoot me". I said: "Don't dare me. I didn't<br />
say I wanted to shoot you". He said to<br />
me: " Ja, you wanted to kill me, why don't you do it? I say: "You want to kill yourself, put the gun to your<br />
head<br />
and shoot you and see if I care. Do you think I damn care?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"Go ahead boy, blow out your brains. Don't ask me to do it for you".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JU BEIDA: "You're bloody lazy to live.<br />
Go ahead. Do it yourself. Take your own bloody life".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: I say: "I had enough<br />
of you Faisal, I'm tired. You know what? You're a boarder in my house<br />
and I'm sick and tired of having… free boarding and lodging. You know what? From now on you start<br />
paying.<br />
For your washing to be done and to eat in this house".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I ask Allah for mauf (forgiveness) for denying a person food.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: But I got to that stage where I started saying to him: "You've gonna pay for everything in this<br />
house".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. So, were you now more informed about your rights and so on.<br />
JUBEIDA: Now I'm starting to read about my rights and I'm starting to ask people. I'm you know…<br />
Where do I go from here? How do you<br />
go about it. Then I spoke to my same, his uncle, not my uncle.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Not<br />
my family.<br />
104
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: To his same uncle. His<br />
in jamat (religious group), his a tablig (part of a group that spreads the<br />
message<br />
of Islam), he knows more. And I used to phone Thaha. "Thaha, what do I do now?" If this<br />
happened<br />
that happened.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Anything happened, I used to ask Thaha: "How do I go about? How do I do? What do I do<br />
here? " Or he'll phone me: "Juby, what<br />
happened now? How is he?" You know?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And where it broke me more is, one day he went to mosque and he went and asked for lillah<br />
(ch arity) ( in a soft voice). I mean I'm not a lillah case.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja. Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
We don't short food in this house.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I have to walk from work, from Bree street right<br />
up, from Fordsburg, Plaza, every day up to<br />
the bus stop,<br />
for saving that money: I have to buy bread for my children.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know. I …There was two years, I didn't buy me a thing at work… for lunch time.<br />
Because<br />
why that<br />
money I can use for my children.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Oh, today I see something, oh let me buy them biscuits or let me buy them sweets. But when I<br />
get home, you know, O God he's gobbling everything<br />
up.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And my children get one.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
And you sacrificed.<br />
JUBEIDA: And I sacrifice for my children. What the hell?<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Why must I do it? I can't kill myself for this<br />
man. You know. And that is where it just got to<br />
the stage: I felt like killing this man. You know. He'll<br />
buy food. Now, I don't eat cafe food.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And then he'll gobble everything up in front of his children. The only time my children get is<br />
when he's full. It's like: "Here's the<br />
scraps dogs. Eat!"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Wow.<br />
105
JUBEIDA: Huh?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I mean, I make something<br />
for my children, you come and eat it up with your friends.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
It sounds like it hurt you more when it came to your children…<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
It hurt. It hurt me very much… (crying).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: When it came to my children.<br />
And I think that is where I became very much…<br />
More determined, because why, they're<br />
growing up ( crying).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And you ask yourself: "How long are you gonna take this?" To hell<br />
with it, man. Other kids are<br />
surviving.<br />
They will survive.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And I think, once I got that<br />
of : "They will survive on this: Hey, go for it girl".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
There is a law out there. You're not in an Islamic country. It's a Western country.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: Go for it. That whole Ramdhaan (holy month in which Muslims are obligated to fast from<br />
sunrise<br />
to sunset), I baked. Where it also happened worse is, I decided, I saved money, I'm gonna paint this<br />
whole<br />
flat out. Then he say: "Ja, why the hell you wanna paint this flat out?" You can use that money for<br />
this that and the other. I say: "Hey,<br />
your parents went for hajj (holy pilgrimage). Who paid their water and<br />
lights? …Who paid their phone accounts for those months they were gone? Three months".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"I paid for it. Because you're brothers said they don't have money. So, this flat, I live in it, it’s<br />
my mother's, its on her name".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: "I live in it. And I saved<br />
that money. I'm gonna paint this flat".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "You don't have to lift a cent,<br />
Boy".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "All you have to do is: take me with the bakkie and go buy my paint". We went, we went to go<br />
buy the paint. You know I went as far as getting this man to sell gra…uh dingese, vegetables.<br />
To go to the<br />
market. He was too lazy to do it. He<br />
could have had a big thing going. He was the first guy, in Eldo's,<br />
selling greens here at Shoprite. And<br />
it was a big thing.<br />
106
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: But he was too bloody<br />
lazy to get up on a Sunday to go also.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Not willing to make an effort for anything.<br />
JUBEIDA: No. He see like five hundred rand here today. "Oh jee, It's a lot of<br />
money!" He's straight<br />
aw ay is spending this. He's not thinking of buying more things to improve this.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Sure.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Use this to buy that.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I went as far as to selling… meat from home. Then he'll come: "Ma, make me meat I'll pay<br />
Jub y tomorrow". With his friends.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: So, you're eating my profit up and<br />
I must pay?<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. So you were<br />
like just the sensible one, sacrificing…<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I was the one always just to see to get us out of the shit.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja. Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. I'm the one getting us out of the shit and getting nothing out of it (in a rapid tone of<br />
voice).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja, ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know. It's like last night my mom and them laughed, I said: "Gee, I'm two years divorced,<br />
at least<br />
I got a nice panty on, I don't have to stitch them… Or the lastic is done". And they were laughing,<br />
you know (laughs).<br />
Like that, I used to think twice, I'm telling you, I promise you. I used to wear shoes,<br />
which I never did when I was younger, that is cracked soles.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
My feet can't take it. I sacrificed that. And I wore it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: For what? Still for the sake… of my children.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Still for the sake of… having a house. But then I thought: "What the<br />
hell is it use to having a<br />
husband and you're not having… happiness.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You're going through misery. Huh? You can't even sleep, nothing.<br />
You know. You're going<br />
through fights and arguments. What's<br />
the use?! It's like having nothing.<br />
107
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JU BEIDA: Huh? And I stay in the shit. I keep on having accounts. That I pay but it's not mine. I'm not<br />
creating<br />
it but it's in my name.<br />
INT ERVIEWER: It's like you woke up from something. What…<br />
JU BEIDA: Ja, it's like, you know, something like just smacked me very hard and say: "Hey, it's your life.<br />
You had it all the time when you were working. When you were single.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Who had this? But you had<br />
money. You don't have a cent today. My banking accounts are<br />
empty, it's dry. It's like I'm just working<br />
from mouth to hand.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I said: "That I had when I was a child".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: And I promised myself, I said: "One day when I work, when I'm a adult, I'm not gonna work<br />
fro m hand to mouth, like my mother did.". Because why my mother earned… peanuts. Okay, we were<br />
happy. But I don't want that life for<br />
my children (in a rapid tone).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
You want better.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Ja. I want better for my children. "Is this what you wanna do?". I moved out of this room, I<br />
moved<br />
into the small room. The kids I moved into, with him, into this bed.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I tell you, Yaseen used to shit. I used to leave this bedding for months, not cleaning it. Because<br />
why<br />
"Hey, I don't sleep in it. What the hell must I worry?"<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: This room was a sight because I moved in there. He used to come and beg: "Come back into<br />
the room". I say : "I don't want, you. You said mos, you don't want me also (in a calm tone)".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: We got to that: "Listen!<br />
Now it's finish". Ninety -nine, end of '98 going into '99, that's when<br />
we really<br />
decided it's finish. Here we're gonna draw the line. I had enough of you. I will work, we will<br />
carry<br />
on…Okay, I had shit at work as well. Then one day he said to me: "Ag, Doll why don't you leave the<br />
job,<br />
you can work from home. You'll make more money than what you do at work".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I said: "I'll think about it". He became the concerned kind of a husband.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Because why now, there's mos now shit at work.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
108
JUBEIDA: But sill, deep down it's like, there's still shit. You know that's now when I started seeing him<br />
for the person… He prey on other people's grievances.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. So, he was like:<br />
"Oh, if she sits at home, I'll leave her. Shirr! She's gonna be<br />
nothing".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: You know, "I Take a job away from her, she's gonna have nothing". But he don't know I can<br />
still<br />
do it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because<br />
why, that was the year I started making samoosas, I'm making chevro. And I used to<br />
sell from home. Slowly…but surely.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: And I started selling salt. Even if it takes a bag of salt to takes six months to sell, to me…is<br />
seven rands<br />
comes in after two three months (in a rapid tone), I take…I became to that of: "Ya Allah, now's<br />
the time I need it". And I got to the conclusion that whenever I need money, I can sell, make samoosas<br />
this<br />
month<br />
and people will say I'll pay you next month. I say: "Fine, take it". You know I got to that: "I trust<br />
you".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And this month I'll come out with it. And next month I'll be struggle and then all that money…<br />
will<br />
come in.<br />
And it will cover all that holes.<br />
INTERVIEWER: All the holes, ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: So, I said I got to the conclusion that: "Ya Allah, You are Gafiroon (the most forgiving one<br />
and<br />
the one who relieves us from suffering), You know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"So, today I make it. If I make a buck, fine. If I don't make a buck, You will send that buck,<br />
when<br />
I really need it".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And it became like that.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: And I think that is where it killed him more. That: "This woman don't care". She's selling, she<br />
making somoosas, she's sewing, she's doing this…. I became to go into doing things when I get home.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: I come home, I used to sit and sew…for<br />
people. Or I come home and I'll go, decide now, now:<br />
109
Huh-uh I'm going to make…ten dozen of samoosas. I'll go into the kitchen, coming home six o'clock, eat,<br />
finish.<br />
By ten o'clock that ten dozen is finish. Making mince and everything. Rolling out sammosas<br />
everything.<br />
Just to get away from him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: Even if I had to sit till leven, twelve o'clock in my kitchen. I used to do that.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Avoiding him.<br />
JU BEIDA: Avoiding him. Because why now it's, because why the arguments, the fights, it's working on<br />
the children.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: It's working on my mom. So what do you do? You put your head into other things.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Doing. I used to sit and sew till late. Doing all that. When I come in: "Oh, he's sleeping". I<br />
use d to regret it if he don't sleep.<br />
Huh! It's like I could cry and I say: "Ya (oh), Allah I sit and I sew till<br />
twelve o'clock he's still awake (both<br />
Jubeida and interviewer laughs). "Ya (oh) Allah, what did I do today<br />
that was<br />
so bad?", you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Wow.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know, you became like<br />
that you know, "Do I have to go sleep". Then I, you know, I'll<br />
sew quickly. I got to also sleeping with light, due to that man. I can sleep with light on.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know. Things like that. He made me learn because I never could do it. And uh …then I'll<br />
come<br />
in and I'll turn so quick and say me kalimas (religious testimonies) so quick, the minute he say:<br />
"Po ppie".<br />
It's like I'm gggg- death (Jubeida and interviewer laughs). You know, although he'll ruff me and<br />
everything and I'll try not to laugh and<br />
I'm like gggg - I' dead asleep you know. But the minute I feel, I can<br />
feel "Oh, there he's conking, he's out,<br />
then I'm like awake, you know (laughs). But that is how I started<br />
training myself. I trained myself. To go like that you know. And Okay, finely in Ramdhaan (Islamic holy<br />
month<br />
during which Muslims are obligated to fast), when he started going on, he comes, at night and he'll<br />
nag about "When are you going to Jamiat (religeous council of learned men), you mos want this divorce.<br />
You<br />
know?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Sort of taunting you.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Ja. Now it's like. You know. And you're fasting. And you know Shaitan (Satan) is even worse.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA: Then I moved into the other room. I even used to sleep on the floor. We had a mattress, I used<br />
to sleep on the floor. Just to get out of his way. I used to paint<br />
till late in the night everything. I used to go<br />
in that room. And he'll come in there and he'll call me names. And I thought to myself: "Carry on". And he<br />
was<br />
the type of person, you couldn't keep quiet. He'll go on until you answer him. But I thought to myself:<br />
"I'm not<br />
going to do it". I started… That's the time I started making my tahhajud (voluntary prayer that<br />
may be said between midnight and the compulsory<br />
early morning prayer). They say thahhajud….uh<br />
dingese salatul istigara ( prayer that one<br />
says when faced with an important decision) is seven nights, I<br />
ma de<br />
it for I don't know how many months I made.<br />
110
INTERVIEWER: Nè?<br />
JUBEIDA: Just: "Ya Allah, what do<br />
I do. You know".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: I made my tahhajud (voluntary<br />
prayer that may be said between midnight and the compulsory<br />
earl y morning prayer) in that Ramdhaan. And everything. And the one day I don't know, he came in here,<br />
he asked for a pants. I said: "Who the hell do you think? I'm you're made?" The Sahabas (the companions<br />
of the<br />
prophet Muhammad , peace be upon him), did their washing, nè. The Sahabas helped their wives, nè.<br />
Their<br />
wives weren't slaves. I'm not your slave. Do it yourself. That day I made him wash his own…pants<br />
and koerta. And he threw me with money. That's also I realized: "You're money is not worth it".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I… After that, I never started using his money. What I used to do, if he wants money I used to<br />
put it in a envelope. Then everything<br />
he do, or take, I used to take it out of his money.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
This is your money. This is mine.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: I don't have money. You're money is finish, Boy.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I don't have money.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JU BEIDA:<br />
You know. But now I'm still so generous. Because now he's travelling kids. How do you get<br />
parents that<br />
pay transport money. Their kids<br />
need to be transported. I take it : you take money from<br />
som ebody, you must give them the service.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know. Because why I want something, I want to pay for it. I want something good.<br />
Because<br />
why samoosas everything, I eat it, then it's good for you. I can't eat it, then it's not good enough for<br />
the next person.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Sure. Sure.<br />
JUBEIDA: So, I got to that also, where<br />
I used to give him my credit card, if there's no petrol in the bakkie<br />
to get<br />
the children to school. Because why the parents pay. I'll give him: "Go put the petrol".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why that children paid for that.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know. You had to. He took my eldest son, even out of normal school to Islamic school.<br />
Which<br />
he was supposed to pay. He never paid the school.<br />
111
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I paid half of the school fees. He still owe the school eighteen thousand. You know what he<br />
said?<br />
"Ag, it's but Indians, why the hell must I pay it".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Wow.<br />
JUBEIDA: Your child went for education.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
It's only fair.<br />
JU BEIDA: Its fair. You pay. Those people need salaries.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
It needs to be paid.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: I paid it. My son went to Daral-ulum<br />
(theological school, literally meaning house of<br />
knowledge). He even made trouble for the child at Daral-ulum. There's my son, you see what he looks<br />
today?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Will you say that is a child that's hafiz (one who memorized the Qur'an) twenty juzz ( sections<br />
of the Quire' an of which there are thirty)?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Wow.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Huh? Look at him. I took him out, okay. Then mm… It went so far, it was after Ramdhaan.<br />
And<br />
I kept on saying: "I'm going to Jamiat (Council of<br />
religious scholars) , I'm going to Jamiat". And<br />
uh…like it's Ramdhaan (Islamic holy month) time, you<br />
can't do it. But the uh… I got to a straw where I<br />
couldn't take it. I went to go see his<br />
parents. His mother say: "Ja, but it's Ramdhaan and everything.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I say: "Ja, but your son don't think it. I had enough of him. I'm gonna leave your son". My<br />
uncle-in-law<br />
said: "Well Juby, what decision did you get to". I say: "You didn't push me, Taha. Shukar<br />
(thank<br />
you)! You tried everything".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You were there for me but I can't take it with your nephew anymore. They say it's a sin to<br />
divorce..<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: They say it's a sin to talaq (divorce).<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
But I can't take it anymore.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
112
JUBEIDA: I'm going for it. Because why now I know a little bit more. Because why if count of<br />
everything<br />
that he said over the years, there is no marriage. You know. It's fourteen years, how much<br />
longer?<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Do yous want me to kill him? I can do it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: That Eid…(religious holy day celebrating the end of the month of fasting) now normally Eid<br />
day we go to his parents. Right oh,<br />
and one thing I still… My father-in-law, over the years, since I got in to<br />
the family<br />
is: My mother-in-law, for the first two years of our marriage, she used to pick out his clothing<br />
and ironed. And you know, she used to do our sewing and everything. And that year since...the last five<br />
years<br />
of my life I did my own sewing. Because why she always maintained that: "Oh , nobody can sew like<br />
Tasha.<br />
Now Tasha did sewing when she was at college. But mommy finished up the dress but Tasha can<br />
read<br />
a pattern. And I'm a person: Don't tell me I can't do a thing.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I'll show you. I can do it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: I went out, I bought me patterns. As you can see, there's all my patterns.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: And I made my first dress. Polka dots and stripes. I didn't make it just polka dots. It was a flair<br />
dress. Stripes in my sleeves. And pieces of stripes in with polka dots. I made it, I didn't ask her a thing. I cut<br />
it m yself,<br />
as skew as I could, over locked it and everything. And I just put it on one Friday. And then she<br />
ask ed: "Is that a new dress?". I said:<br />
"Yes I made it myself". My father-in-law said: "See, that's a new style<br />
now with stripes and stars" (in a laughing<br />
tone). And she scrutinized it. Okay, there was a few things. You<br />
know like the over locking and the front, the holes, you know. Like, hamming it and things. That was a few<br />
things.<br />
But the rest she didn't find. Okay, and then, button holes. You know when you start of, you still<br />
hesitate<br />
to do things.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sure.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
But don't tell me I can't do a thing. I will show you. I'm gonna try and I'm gonna do it. And<br />
that's<br />
how she got me determined to do my own sewing. Did my sewing and everything. But now I<br />
make…And<br />
then she showed me how to make the koertas (long ,loose fitting cloacks). And I made my<br />
own patterns. She normally makes<br />
a pattern and then I'll draw it from her. And I'll make a pattern. And I<br />
ma de my sons' own koertas. I made his koertas. Everything. And she always used to scrutinize it on Eid<br />
day (religious holy day celebrating the end of the month of fasting).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I leave her, you know. Then she rectify. Well, I'm not a person: Oh don't look!<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Rectify me where I'm wrong. Then I can know next time I can improve on it. And that's how I<br />
learn. And '98, '99 Eid…day (religious holy day celebrating the end of the month of fasting). I stood. I went<br />
down. They could see I was not happy.<br />
I was very unhappy that day. But I still put on a face, you know.<br />
113
Talk to everybody: How are you, everything. And I normally take out my father-in-law's clothing for Eid<br />
day.<br />
I choose for him. Not my mother-in-law, not his daughters.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: He used to tell me: "You<br />
go see what I must wear". Because why we used to go to Bosmont to<br />
my granny-in-law<br />
and them, my mother-in-law's mother and father. So, they live in Bosmont. So, it's like I<br />
took<br />
it out. And that same day: "How are you my baby". "No, Alhamdulillah ( praise be to God), Da. You<br />
Okay?<br />
Fine". But deep inside of me I thought to myself: "Today is the last day you see me here".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Wow.<br />
JUBEIDA: After this yous wouldn't<br />
see me again.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Wow.<br />
JUBEIDA: This is the last Eid I'm gonna iron your clothing. That<br />
I said to myself. Not my sister-in-laws,<br />
nobody knew what I was doing. Nobody,<br />
not even my mother-in-law. And uh I said: "Da, what you gonna<br />
we ar?".<br />
He said "Ag, you know, go check in my cupboard". My mother-law took out her…" Ma. You<br />
gonna<br />
iron?" Her she took out her clothing for ironing, took out my children's clothing for re-ironing to put<br />
on the<br />
bed. Went into his cupboard. As I stood in front of that cupboard, I though : "What shall I let him<br />
wear<br />
for the last Eid? I don't know who's gonna do it next Eid for you. Bakahri Eid (day commemorating<br />
the day when prophet Abraham-peace be upon him-sacrificed a goat instead of his son), somebody is gonna<br />
do it<br />
for you.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. But you knew it's the last.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
That is what I said to myself: "This is the last. I'm not back again here". I took out his clothing.<br />
Went to go iron it. U p to the socks everythin g, I put it on his bed. My mother-in-law's clothing, ironed it<br />
out, put<br />
it on her bed. She went to go shower. I got my kids done. He still laughed: "How are you, okay?"<br />
"Ja". You know everything. And as I'm ironing there I said to myself:<br />
"Ya (oh) Allah, hope they find<br />
somebody to iron their clothing for them. Ironing. You know my<br />
sister-in-laws are in the room also but I'<br />
thinking<br />
it to myself (in a laughing tone).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
You're thinking it to yourself.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Now I knew, because why that became my job for Eid day. It's only me, my families clothing,<br />
my mother and my father-in-law's clothing. Well whoever comes in and they say: "You busy ironing, iron<br />
for me". I'll iron for you. But that day I ironed out, I said: " This is the last. I'm not gonna be here ever<br />
again, to be back to iron this. Next Eid, you'll find somebody<br />
else. And uh with me it's "Ag, maybe you're<br />
just saying it", you know. And I was shocked at myself, thinking<br />
this. I went to Bosmont. I was very quiet.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
They ask: "What's wrong". " No, nothing". Got home he said: "Oh everybody said you're shell.<br />
I said:<br />
" So what? I was talking with everybody, I was mixing with everybody". But I withdrawed myself<br />
form<br />
them.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. Because why<br />
normally I go lay the tables, I help with this.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Help with the dishes, putting food on the table. That Eid it's like: "why you so quite, what's<br />
wrong". "No I'm just<br />
tired, you know my mommy's not so well". Put everything on to it.<br />
114
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JU BEIDA: Painting a big thing.<br />
In the meantime: "How can I tell yous what am I thinking?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: It's not the time. It's not<br />
the time to tell yous that, you know. Because why it's not everybody's<br />
thing. I left<br />
it. Thought to myself: "Ja, last Eid I'm here", then afterwards: "No man, my feet are hurting,<br />
you know mos this sandals and it's choking me (laughs)". And I act like I can't walk and I can walk and you<br />
miserable<br />
and everything.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: My mother-in-law is: "Are you going with me to Galifa?" I said: "No, Ma" She was like<br />
sho cked. Because why wherever she and my father-in-law go , I'm the only one: "Hey, lets go with. I'll<br />
even<br />
walk<br />
with yous".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. My husband<br />
don't wanna to take us, we used to walk. I said: "No". "Why?" "No, I<br />
got the<br />
wrong shoes on, it's hurting". Meantime: "To hell, go yourself. Why the hell must I go, I don't want<br />
to b e with yous today .It's the last,<br />
go". She was like shocked. Because why I've never, for all these years,<br />
said<br />
no. If they said go, I used to say yes lets go. I always used to be game for everything.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: But today is "What happened?" But it's like that's how I felt…that's the time I cut myself off<br />
from<br />
them. After Eid (religious holy day celebrating the end of the month of fasting), that was then<br />
February,<br />
I, no not February, before February. January, ja. After Eid I went to walk. Then I started calling<br />
Jamiat (Council of religious scholars).<br />
It took a effort. And I phoned Jamiat and I asked them: "How do I<br />
go about<br />
to get a talaq (divorce)". Maulana (religious minister) asked me: "How do you mean you want a<br />
talaq?"<br />
Then I explained to him: "Maulana, this is what I'm going through, over the years. What do I do<br />
from<br />
now?" I know I told him everything he's calling me, how he's treating me and things. I say: "I don't<br />
think<br />
there is a marriage anymore". Then he put me through to one of the Maulanas, he's dealing with the<br />
marriages.<br />
He said: "You know what? You have to fill in a form. Then write everything, form the<br />
beginning<br />
to end…for us". That's how come I got that (referring to a letter she showed me earlier).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
That's when I decided: "I'm going to do it ( in a very firm tone)". I send our driver, got the<br />
address,<br />
"Go fetch me the form". I had that form for a week in my bag. I walked for a week with it. "Ya<br />
(oh),<br />
Allah, must I fill it in".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
" What do I do?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. "Where is it gonna<br />
end? But I don't wanna get mad. I'm not gonna end up in a mad<br />
house. And I'm not gonna kill this man.<br />
Because why I kill him, I go to jail" (in a very rapid tone).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
115
JUBEIDA: I still don't see my children.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right. Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: And I'm gonna carry his sin. Killing<br />
him. It's not gonna be worth it. Cause I got to that: killing<br />
is the<br />
only solution out of this marriage. Because why he's going…he's that type that tempers you, he's<br />
going<br />
on with you, you know. He's gonna provoke you.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: Till you do something very bad. I said: "And the only way I can get rid of him, is to kill him".<br />
And I got to that: The whole of Ramdhaan<br />
(holiest month in the Islamic religion during which Muslims are<br />
obligated<br />
to fast) I was thinking of how do I kill this man.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And I think: "It's fasting time. How do you kill a person?" And<br />
that's when it came to me:<br />
"Don't<br />
kill him".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: "Get out of it.<br />
Allah will show you a way". And I asked Allah…Like I said, that whole<br />
Ramdhaan I made salatul istigara (prayer that is said when one needs guidance in making an important<br />
decision), I made tahajjud (voluntary<br />
prayer that may be said between midnight and the compulsory early<br />
morning prayer), I made everything…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
That I could think of.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
All avenues.<br />
JUBEIDA: Read any dua (prayer)<br />
that I could think of. And I used to speak to myself. Like: "Ya (oh)<br />
Allah, show me. Where do I go. What did I do<br />
wrong. But how do I go about it. Because why I don't know<br />
anymore".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I can't kill this person.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: I don't want to lose my children. That was my main concern is: My mother never threw us<br />
aw ay. I kill him, it's like throwing my children back to this family.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Huh?<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I don't want that. And… that's when I made up my mind now after a week:<br />
"Hey! Fill in that<br />
form<br />
and just write". And now you can't write because why now he's around.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
116
JUBEIDA: So, "Oh gee, lekker": "Oh I'm going with PAGAD, I have to go here and there". "No, fine.<br />
Go".<br />
" Oh I have to take this one there"." No, go". That's when I got: "You go, I can write". And that's<br />
when<br />
I started writing the letter. And I wrote it from beginning to the end. Like you'll see, it's like bits and<br />
pieces,<br />
it's just refined to the main things, where it went wrong.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: I went twice to 15 Market<br />
Street. I got twice a form there, to fill in for a interdict. The next best<br />
thing when I have to go in, then I get up and I go to work.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "No it's not…", you know.<br />
And the day I took the forms in… The Friday, the Thursday night, I<br />
finished the letters. Because I normally<br />
draw it up and then I re-write. The Thursday night I re-wrote it, still<br />
not knowing<br />
he got somebody outside. Because why he's also now…No he's staying out late because why<br />
there's<br />
now nothing.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: We didn't sleep with<br />
each other for now, for all this months, you know. Since October…I think<br />
it's since<br />
September of '98 into '99, you know. So, there's now nothing.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Now we just living for the sake of the children. We look at each other, we want<br />
to kill each<br />
other, you know. It's like, hatred now, so what's the use? Now there's nothing. I couldn't care<br />
a damn now.<br />
You know. Now you do what you want<br />
to, come when you want to, couldn't be bothered. You come, you<br />
come shower that time of the night,<br />
I can't be bothered where you've been. I don't question you anymore.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Although you still accusing me. I tell him: "If I stand behind the door, you're also standing<br />
behind<br />
the door, Boy. So, it's your life. It takes two to tango".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "But just remember: my kedingese, don't sit in front of my front head". "Oh! You're still eating<br />
with<br />
that mouth?" I say: "Yes. But yous, it's just a little thing, it tickles me". And it used to go on. And it…I<br />
really<br />
used to put it on hey (laughing). Then one night he asked me: "Really? ", just before I send the letter<br />
to J amiat<br />
(council of religious scholars), "Really, tell me how do you feel about me?" I said: "Really? I<br />
don't want you anymore Faisal. I had enough of you. You see I don't even care what you're doing. If you<br />
don't even come home, I'm not even<br />
gonna be bothered.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"So, do as you please, Faisal". Get out of my life! Give me my freedom back, because why<br />
mad,<br />
I don't want to become. You see, my sister had a nervous break-down. She can't take life.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "Me, I'm not gonna have a nervous break-down. And I'm not gonna end up in a mental home".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"Not for you. You're not worth it. I'm sorry".<br />
117
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: "And how was I in bed?"<br />
I say: "Oh jee! You tickled me all these years".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
You really played on that.<br />
JU BEIDA: I did. Up to the end. It's really now, you know,<br />
I just… let out everything. And then he can get<br />
so cross and<br />
that.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: I just told him what<br />
I felt. And the on the seventh, I think it was the seventh or the first, I wrote<br />
the letter to Jamiat. My driver took<br />
it the Friday, but not thinking, Friday Jamiat close at one, their not<br />
opening<br />
up.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Uh (taking<br />
a deep breath), but anyway the driver had the letter with him and it started raining.<br />
And it's pouring, and the gilab (thunder)<br />
is going. And I went for lunch. And I was standing at Pick and<br />
Pay centre. Now I wanna cross. But<br />
I'm telling you, That gilab…. hit so hard, nè?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
That it felt like something inside of me was just… thorn out, you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I said: "Ya (oh) Allah, did I do something wrong? If my letter gone in, is it so bad that you<br />
take,<br />
uh, uh talaq (divorce) so bad…" (tone rapid and intense)<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"… this had to happen? Allah, if it's wrong, I ask mauf, (forgiveness) but I can't take it".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
You can't. You can't.<br />
JU BEIDA: (Silence). I stood there and it stopped raining. I went over (tearful tone). I say: "Isaac, where's<br />
the letter?"<br />
He say: "I got it in the bike" I say: " Okay. No. It's not my talaq (divorce) (crying)", you know.<br />
"Then<br />
it's meant to be". (Short silence). My maid took it in (trying to compose herself). Then the<br />
Wednesday<br />
Mawlana phoned me: "Can you come in? Is it possible to get an appointment with you?" I said:<br />
"Mawlana, I'll see". He said: "Okay, we'll make it for<br />
the 27th of January". The twenty seventh… I told<br />
him : "Listen, you mos wanted me to go to Jamiat, nè?<br />
I did go. In any case. They would like to see us<br />
bot h" . Nine o'clock he has to be there. "Oh, I've got children to transport". I say: "I don't care".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"Whatever time you can, see that you at Mawlana, at Jamiat, nè. You mos said I must take it<br />
my way. You know how he even had me at a mawlana, here in Eldo's, we went there. I told that mawlana<br />
straight:<br />
"I don't think I want a life with him". "Why Juby?" I gave him my reasons. Nobody could see it.<br />
You<br />
know how many times he phoned our imam, local imam that got us married. He said:" I'm coming to<br />
face<br />
both of you as husband and wife". He went to approach the man at the mosque.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And he heard the man's version of it and uh I was the liar. Then I phoned my uncle, and I said:<br />
"Where<br />
do I go?" He said: "No, you have to go to the Islamic uh council, marriage counselor.<br />
118
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Then he gave me the imams<br />
that's sitting on the council. I said: "But I spoke to them and they<br />
never<br />
did anything. This imam is sitting on the council, he didn't even tell me to go to the marriage<br />
counseling."<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I say: "Marriage counseling<br />
is not gonna help. Taha, you know how many years I'm sitting.<br />
I'm looking<br />
for a out now.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "What grounds do I have?" And that's why I never went to the Islamic council, marriage<br />
council.<br />
I went straight to Jamiat.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA:<br />
I said: "You said I must choose. I choose Jamiat, I didn't choose the Islamic Council. So, you<br />
see that<br />
you're there". When we got<br />
there, Mawlana got up. Okay, he said to him like: "This is her<br />
grie vances". He read out the letter.<br />
He asked me again. I explained to him that we've seen his uncle and<br />
everything. Nobody in the family told me to do it. That's how I feel. I can't live with him anymore.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Before I do something wrong, I'd rather get out of it. What is my legal, Islamic rights.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Right.<br />
JU BEIDA: And you know. Then he asked Mawlana can he have a copy. And Mawlana said: "You can't<br />
ask me. You have to ask her". I was so determined. He asked me: "Can I have a copy". I said "Yes. You<br />
want<br />
to know? You want a copy? Have it". Then he turned around and he told Mawlana: "Everything in<br />
that letter everything she say, is a lie".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
He made me a liar. And I've take a qasam (oath). If I had a gun. Or anything sharp was on that<br />
mawlana's<br />
table, I would have stabbed that man, right there, dead.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: That's how I hated him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I cried. At that moment in point, I burst out crying. I cried in that office.<br />
But if I had anything<br />
that I could have killed that man, I would have done it. Allah made it, there was not even a pencil on that<br />
man's<br />
desk (laughs). Not even a pen.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Nothing in sight (laughing).<br />
JU BEIDA: Nothing sharp, just to inflict any injury, you know, that I was so frustrated that I just wanted to<br />
get it<br />
out of… my sight. I just wanted<br />
to get him out. And then what killed me more is when we came dawn<br />
stairs,<br />
he still went, he went dawn with the escalator, I went dawn with the stairs, you know. And when we<br />
got dawn he said: "You know what? I will give you a talaq (divorce) but I first wanna go show my mother<br />
119
and them this letter, I'll get mine this afternoon by the mawlana. I said: "Fine, do as you please". I went to<br />
work.<br />
And I gave him a copy. I walked off. He still wanted to take me to work. I said: "No". He still had<br />
the<br />
audacity…You<br />
know he's like irritating me to ask: "Are you okay? You gonna be fine?" You know it's a<br />
soft<br />
way.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: I say: "What the hell<br />
do you think? I'll get to work".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I went to work. Because<br />
why now at work they know.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay.<br />
JU BEIDA: But I was so cross…and so angry…I was so hurt that when I told them at work what happened,<br />
I burst<br />
out crying (crying).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: And because why their Christian, but they said: "Juby don't worry, it will come right" (crying).<br />
And that's the day I decided: "No, I'm going to put him of the street, because why he used to come…". You<br />
kno w this same Faisal, you know how jealous he was on him? I was jolling even with Faisal. Faisal is like<br />
my eldest<br />
son.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja .<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Faisal will come in say: "Salam ( Muslim greeting, literally meaning peace) Auntie Juby, how<br />
are you ", hug me, kiss me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes, yes.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I'll cut his hair. He even didn't want me to cut this child's hair.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
UBEIDA: Huh?. Then he used to come<br />
here on Sundays when my son used to come from Daral-ulum<br />
(the ological<br />
learning institute). And he used to threaten me: "I'll kill you". You know?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: And things like that.<br />
And when I went to 15 Market Street I wrote all that down. Then they<br />
said: "Did<br />
he mean it physically or… is it just a saying?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: I said: "It's physically".<br />
I said: "That man is in state of anything".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Right.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"He will do it".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
He's capable.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. He will do anything…and still when you see, when you look at him, it looks<br />
like<br />
120
he could never say it, he could never do it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: I said: "What do I do?<br />
Where do I run from here?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "If you people can't help<br />
me with the interdict, what do I do?" Okay finally, it took me about…<br />
three days before I got a interdict.<br />
I got the interdict. I took one to his mother and them. Send one. He still<br />
insist<br />
he never got it up till today. Okay fine, I left it, then… that same, okay. He went on. He used to<br />
torment<br />
me. He used to phone me at work and carry on. You know, and I used to swear him. Then they<br />
said afterwards at work: "Juby, why do you swear? Just put the phone down on the guy (in an animated<br />
tone)".<br />
I say: "It's not the type of person you put a phone down".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
It's now is the time to get back at him.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Okay. And you<br />
wanted to let it out?<br />
INTERVIEWER: I say: "I want to let it get out now. Now he must<br />
know how I feel".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Now I'm gonna torment him. Because why this is now… because why on the eighth of<br />
February…Because why, ja…the twenty-seventh of uh… January we were by Jamiat. Then on the twenty-<br />
eig ht of…the, the sec…the eighth of February was the last I was by his mother and them. Then he wanted<br />
his rings and he wanted his dawry (bridal gift that the husband gives to his wife when they get married or<br />
later on in the marriage) back.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I said: "Fine, you can have your rings". Because I never used to wear my wedding rings. You<br />
know.<br />
I mean it's something you wear…It's special to you.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: When yous going out,<br />
that's when you wear it. I had ordinary rings, because why he found me<br />
with<br />
rings. I used to wear my ordinary rings but I had a band that I always used to wear. Because I used to<br />
work<br />
in Hillbrow and you don't wear your genuine jewelry there.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: They take a band that you buy, it don't hurts you.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. And…that's why. So when he asked his wedding rings I said: "Do you know what?<br />
You want your rings back. Why don't you…I have to give I back to you in front of a mahram (members of<br />
her clan whom she is not allowed to marry but who can protect her interest, for example her brother)". And<br />
that Sunday<br />
I couldn’t find my uncles, my nephews, nobody. Everybody's gone out all of a sudden. And I<br />
wanted to get it off. He said: "Okay, lets go to my mother. My mother can phone<br />
Taha and Uncle and they<br />
can come<br />
and they can be your witnesses, then you have your…wakils (representatives)<br />
there. I said: "Fine,<br />
because I need wakils to give you<br />
your dowry and your rings back. Because why you… are capable of<br />
making<br />
me a liar.<br />
121
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBE IDA: I said: " I'm tired of you Faisal". When we got there…he gave the letter to his father and them.<br />
So, that mean all the time he was keeping this letter. He told me, maar, they know about the letter.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay. So, he was saving it.<br />
JUBEIDA: So as we walked in this Sunday, it was a Sunday.<br />
He gave…He said: "Da, read! But Da, I want<br />
you to phone<br />
Taha and Uncle". Then his father turned around<br />
and he said: "You know what? I'm sick and<br />
tired<br />
of yous shit! Why don't you people sort your own problems out? Why must I always phone the<br />
family?"<br />
Okay fine, I kept quiet. I wasn't dressed. I had my oldest, dirtiest dress on for that Sunday. I<br />
looked<br />
really like the maid. I couldn't be bothered. "To hell with yous", you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: This is how I looked. And I went just like that to his parents (laughing). They were also like,<br />
shocked: "Ha! She never looks l ike that".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JU BEIDA: But this day I looked, like really, I could tell you shit. I walked in and I sat where I was sitting.<br />
The n and I told them: "Listen, I had enough of your son. I don't want him anymore. I'm telling you straight<br />
now take your son back, I don't want<br />
him. "Oh, but your not thinking of the children. You know what, your<br />
very selfish,<br />
you just thinking of yourself".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Wow.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"What about the children?" I said: "Oh? What about the children? I said: "They'll grow up. I<br />
said: "But me. I'm not gonna get mad with your son. I had<br />
enough of your son. I say: "And before I kill<br />
him or land up in a mad house, I'll rather leave him. My<br />
kids will grow up".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"I'm not selfish. They gonna have their own lives. I have my life now. And I feel I must have<br />
my life… now. Before I'm mad. Because why when I get mad, I wouldn't have a life.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "And if I'm gonna stay<br />
longer with your son, it's gonna be worse. And I can't take it". Oh and<br />
then<br />
they lashed out how they feel. And then they read the letter, it's when he gave them the letter: "Read!"<br />
They<br />
read the letter. Silence for about twenty to half-and-hour, reading through the letter. His father got up<br />
and said: "Oh, that mean this was hatred all the time. There's no love. And, Jubeida, how could you, in all<br />
these years,<br />
remember all this things in here.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
How?<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Mm? "How do you get it right". Because why that mean it hurt them because why everything<br />
in there<br />
is the truth.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: When he asked me…That's I realized that: He's asking me how can I remember everything.<br />
But if something hurts you, again every<br />
year its gonna come (tearful).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes, yes. Of course.<br />
122
JUBEIDA: You're gonna remember: this month was like this for me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Every month is like, you know<br />
you remember it over the years.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sure.<br />
JUBEIDA: The months become, certain<br />
things resemble certain things for you.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: February was my happiest years because why that's the years my children was born in.<br />
January, December is the years I regretted<br />
in my life.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: Because why there's misery, it's money, it's everything.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Mm? So, that's how you remember things.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
So, I left it. To hell with them.<br />
INTERVIEWER: But you were now the bad party?<br />
JUBEIDA: Hey, now I become<br />
the bad one. And they lash out at me. Now, there's nobody… to answer for<br />
me back. Because why I'm the type when I'm very angry<br />
I go very dep…not depressed but I go into myself.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: I wouldn't answer you back.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JU BEIDA: I will tell you : "Carry on."<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Only thing I do is, I'll just start tearing up my shoes or anything that's uh loose.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I'll start tearing it. Because why with my<br />
marriage, I tore a new pair of tekkies up. Because<br />
wh y his mother worked on my nerves, my mother worked on my nerves. Because they wanted the<br />
wedding,<br />
they don't want it my way. And I was frustrated that Sunday.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA:<br />
And by the time they all left, the whole soles of the tekkies that I had on was pulled off.<br />
Because<br />
why I can't…I'm not a person that will rudely interrupt you, you know. I will turn my anger<br />
123
on…myself.<br />
INTER VIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I'll take it out on myself.<br />
So, that Sunday I didn't take it on nothing, not myself, nothing. I just<br />
looked<br />
it. And I sat there: fine, you finish? Then he turned around and he said: "You know what? Faisal. If<br />
I had<br />
a wife like this, I would have left her long time. I don't know why the hell you're sitting still with her.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Wow.<br />
JU BEIDA: That's when I said: "Oh,<br />
so this is what you people think of me". You know it's like: Hey? His<br />
mother got up. And she still blabbed<br />
around there, this that and the other. I didn't even listen to her. Then<br />
she went to the kitchen. Then she asked me: "Juby, tell me, do you still feel like a child in this house?" I<br />
said:<br />
"You what? No! I feel like a maid". She said: "Oh, well I always treated you like a daughter in this<br />
house",<br />
and she's that now keeping herself nice and whatever. You know now the sour grapes came out.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And they had all their says and I got up I said "Okay, jazā kum Állāh (thank you, literally<br />
meaning may God reward you) but I'm going home. "Faisal, just take me to my house please". And I<br />
walked out. And that was the last I've<br />
been there. On the fourteenth of February then my father-in-law, my<br />
mother-in-law, chaste her brother away. The one that was helping us with this marriage and everything.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. The whole time.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
He became the bad person.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: Now it's like,… he…assist me and it's through him that I'm leaving their son, you know. And<br />
thin gs…and uh…and actually on the eight we were there, the ninth…Then we came home and that night he<br />
made me take mubalagh (take an oath) on the Qur'an.<br />
In front of my children, he called my children in:<br />
"Your mother is taking mubalagh on<br />
this Qur'an that she is having an affair.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Gosh.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And I said: "Allah knows best. If anything bad happen to me, Allah knows that I had an affair.<br />
But<br />
if nothing happens to me, Allah knows, He will uplift me".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: "But remember Faisal, my<br />
love that I had for you, is gonna kill you".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "Really, it's gonna kill you. Just remember that. And remember Allah<br />
is slow…but sure".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "Allah knows who is the wrong in this. I am taking mubālagh on this. But whatever you say,<br />
if i t's true, Allah is my witness. And I did it. He…he really broke me down in front of my kids. Okay, I<br />
took it. Then on the ninth he said: " Oh, I'm moving out". I said: "Fine. But you know what? Those suitcases<br />
I w orked<br />
for it. You move out of here, your mother's got JMT (garbage bags) bags, nè, you go take JMT<br />
bag,<br />
boy. Or, you go take… a bag from your mother. You know that old suitcase you came with,<br />
remember<br />
when we got married? You bring that and you put your things in there. But you're not taking<br />
one<br />
124
suitcase of mine that I worked for. You take nothing that I worked for here. You can take what you came<br />
with.<br />
But not of my things". On the ninth, he came that night…He went to fetch the old suitcase from his<br />
mother<br />
(laughs)<br />
INTERVIEWER: Nogal<br />
(laughs).<br />
JUBEIDA: Very old one. He went.. When I came<br />
from work his things were packed. He said: "Jubeida,<br />
…u h,<br />
jazā kum Állāh for everything, and… but I'm going". I said: "Thanks for going. Did you pack? Do<br />
you want beds? Do you want a blanket? (In a sarcastic tone). Boy, here's your blankets. You can take this<br />
one.<br />
The blue one your not getting, your granny bought it. This one your mother bought, you can take it.<br />
You<br />
want bed sheets? This is what your mother bought you, nè. You can have a set. Take it. And you<br />
wanted<br />
your rings, nè. Here's your rings, my baby. Come. I don't want it. It's gonna serve no purpose for<br />
me" .<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA:<br />
He took it because why he wanted it. That was always our fight. When we had a fight, he<br />
wanted<br />
his rings.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Wow.<br />
JUBEIDA: And I said to<br />
him: "Here's it, you can have it". An uh, he took his rings, he went for esha<br />
(evening prayer)<br />
and everything most probably, whatever he did at the mosque, whatever. And uh then he<br />
came. He took his things then he left.<br />
He greeted my mom: "Salam". He left. Now it's, he never had respect<br />
for my mother, he speaks to my mother<br />
as "Ma". I said: "You know what? She's not your mother anymore.<br />
She's<br />
nothing of you. And uh then the rumor went around it's through my mother. It's through my mother<br />
that<br />
I left him. And it's through two slices of bread and a cup of coffee (laughs). He left me. Because he, I<br />
fought<br />
over a cup of coffee and two slices of bread he gave his friend to eat here. That's why he's talaqing<br />
(divorcing)<br />
me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know. And then, like I said, after everything, after he moved out of the house, now I get<br />
all this<br />
stories that, oh, he's seeing this ustaad (teacher) here by the madressa (Islamic school). Because<br />
why he's always there early.<br />
He's buying her breakfast and everything, he's taking her home, he's bringing<br />
her, you know, go fetch her from school. I said: "So, what? Good for him, he found somebody". Why the<br />
hell. I'm telling you the stories that<br />
came to me afterwards of what Faisal is doing and things, nè, that it<br />
couldn't, it didn't even bug me. Afterwards I told my mom: "You know what? I wanna hear nothing of him.<br />
Let him do what he want to. You know. But then he started bugging me at work. Phoning me: "Oh, Jubeida<br />
I still<br />
love you. You know what? We separated now for so many weeks but if you get your haidh<br />
(menstrual<br />
flow) and uh the thing is, if I get you a house, don't you want to come back? We'll give it<br />
another<br />
four months". I said: "What? Four months? I had enough of you, didn't you hear. I don't want you.<br />
Go."<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So he didn't believe it's like over.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Hu-uh. "It's over Faisal. I …want my talaq (divorce). Give my talaq".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA:<br />
"Like you said, you're separated now. But I want my talaq. I'm putting in for a divorce Faisal".<br />
He didn't<br />
believe me. I said: "And you know what? I got a interdict against you. You're not allowed in front<br />
of my door. You come here, I'll put the cops after you.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
125
JUBEIDA: "Watch me". He used to pester me. And I kept on warning him. One Saturday it rained, I was<br />
soaking<br />
wet coming from work. He was right in front of the door. I said: "Faisal, please, I don't want to do<br />
this<br />
but I'll get the cops to pick you up. Don't come in front of my door. There's a interdict out against you.<br />
And<br />
a warrant of arrest will follow soon".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "Stop bugging me. Just<br />
write out my talaq and that's it! You already gave me so many. Give<br />
the last<br />
and lets go"(in an intense tone).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm<br />
JU BEIDA: "No, I still love you". This one day I was so de moer in I phoned his mother. I said: "Listen<br />
here Rukaya, just tell your son, nè: From<br />
Monday to Thursday he wants me back and on Friday, Thursday<br />
to Friday, he's getting married, nè. So please, just get him out of my way. I don't want him anymore". My<br />
poor<br />
mother was the worst creature ever…in this. Like my mother is the centre…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So, everybody is to blame, except him.<br />
JUBEIDA: It's everybody, it's me, it's I'm to be blamed. My mother is to be blamed. Everybody in the<br />
house. But not them. Him and his family, they're the clean ones. They did everything<br />
that was good.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
He's never to be blamed. My mother put him…I said: "Why did my mother put him out?<br />
Because<br />
why he don't respect her house".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
He has no respect for nobody. You know, he sweared his mother of a what's a name, a "H". In<br />
this house.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Wow, his own mother?<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
His own mother. His own mother one day. I was shocked. I think that. I think that's also where<br />
everything<br />
just…build up, you know. He had no respect for his parents.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: His father, many a times, threw him out of the house…when we were married, not to come<br />
there.<br />
You know. So, it's like, I said: "No, your son is good, but just tell your son, he want's to get<br />
married…"<br />
"Oh, no Faisal just sits in the house. You know he loves you so much he's not even going out".<br />
In the meantime I'm hearing all the stories where he's visiting all the ladies (in an animated<br />
tone).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Wow.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Huh? All the single ladies that his visiting and he's going here and whose he getting married to<br />
and everything. Huh? Until the day that this woman that he's married to now, my mother used to go to<br />
madressa<br />
( Islamic school) here. You know on Wednesday for ladies.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: And uh, you know as one<br />
woman to another, "Hey I'm getting married". That's when she<br />
star ted<br />
now, making the rumor: "I'm gonna get married to Faisal Duss". So she told this appa (female<br />
religious<br />
teacher), I don't know if you know her, appa Shamila, Shaffi, of uh Newclare.<br />
126
INTERVIEWER: No.<br />
JUBEIDA: She married to the Jaffi<br />
brothers, one of the Jaffies. And now she's well learned, she went to<br />
India<br />
to learn. And Shamila knows deen (religion), especially from a woman's side she knows everything.<br />
So all Shamila said to her, when she said to Shamila: "Oh, I'm getting married to Faisal Duss", then<br />
Shamila<br />
said to her: "If I'm you I'll make salah-tul istigara (prayer that is said when one is faced with<br />
making<br />
an important decision)". You know before you know anything. Because why I mean you're<br />
suppose<br />
to know this man was a married man.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: But she's bragging now.<br />
So she went to turn around and say: "Ja, I don't know what the appa<br />
said" . And it, I'm telling you, it caused<br />
a whole ugly thing. That you know, he sweared that appa (teacher)<br />
that her<br />
hajj (holy pilgrimage) is not valid and everything and she must go make her hajj over, how can she<br />
be so<br />
jealous because why, what is this woman's name? Who's he married to (speaking to herself). I forgot<br />
this<br />
woman's name. Whatever. Ja, he's gonna get married. Because why they jealous because why she's<br />
getting<br />
married to him. And if he one day talaq (divorce) her he's talaq her for six slices and three cups of<br />
coffee,<br />
not like he talaqed me for two slices and one cup of coffee (laughs).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Laughs.<br />
JUBEIDA: It was a whole thing. I mean, you know the months between February to April, you<br />
know how<br />
it dragged. It felt like six months. With all this stories coming and going. And like, he swears my mother, to<br />
say my mother's watching him by the mosque. Because why if you look out here you can see right by the<br />
mosque.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know. And my mom stands always by the window to watch the kids coming from school,<br />
going to madressra<br />
(Islamic school) and things like that. Now my mom is watching him. And my mother is<br />
sitting and scandalling<br />
at the madressa about them and everything. You know. So…, and every time he<br />
use d to call I say: "Faisal, all I need,<br />
give me my talaq (divorce). I want nothing else". And finally, on the<br />
sixth of April he phoned me. He said:<br />
"Jubeida, it's me Faisal…Duss. You're sure it's my voice?" I say:<br />
"Yes,<br />
it's your voice". "Okay, I'm giving you you're talaq". And he said it like three times over the phone. I<br />
said "Okay. But you know what? I still want it in writing. And I want it in front of a mahram<br />
(representatives<br />
from her family)". "Oh, but Allah is your witness". I say: "Ja, Allah is my witness. But<br />
with<br />
you…anything is possible".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"That you can say you never gave me my talaq (divorce), that I'm mad. I'm cuckoo".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: I say: "I'm sorry".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja. You not willing to take that chance.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I'm not willing to take that chance. "If you put it in writing for me. You talaq (divorce) me.<br />
Finally I accept it. But as from today I will sit my…ihdah (three month waiting period before a divorce is<br />
finalized). I will sit that. It starts from today".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"But…I still want it in writing".<br />
127
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: "From you". I phoned<br />
his uncle after he put the phone down. I said: "Listen, Faisal just phoned<br />
me. He gave me my three talaqs (divorce crees)over the phone now". He asked me: "Are you sure it's<br />
Faisal?"<br />
I said: "Yes. It was sure because why he said it's Faisal. And everything. I know his voice by now<br />
already.<br />
He did give it. What do I do. He said: "Well, now you start. You have your three…months. And<br />
that's<br />
it. You're three cycles is over, the you're a free woman. Right oh. You start from today". Because why<br />
I wanted<br />
to know now how I started my procedure form here to …getting now free". Then he said to me. I<br />
said:<br />
"Okay, jazā kum Állāh (thank you, litteraly meaning: may God reward you). I said: "But now, what do<br />
I do?<br />
I have to do my shopping? Faisal is not nifka-ing (financial support) me. Right oh. Faisal moved out<br />
of the<br />
house so that he don't nifka me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why he's suppose to nifka me for the three months.<br />
RESERACHER:<br />
Ja. Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I have to work.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja..<br />
JUBEIDA: He say: "Okay. You've got<br />
this option in Islam that you go to work, go home straight after<br />
maghrib (prayer that is said just after sunset)<br />
or whatever".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"You're not suppose to have no social life after maghrib (prayer that is said just after sunset).<br />
You go for your shopping. You just go for shopping and come back. That's<br />
your three months that you<br />
have<br />
to d o. Nothing else. No social life.<br />
I said:" jazā kum Állāh (thank you, litteraly meaning: may God reward<br />
you ). That's what I want to know".<br />
You know. And that in that time we still had our arguments. Now it's<br />
the children.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Now he starts fighting my children. Because why he know now, now my life is…my children.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And he started to pulling<br />
the children away. And the way in what…Yaseen was still…small.<br />
It's now that Yaseen is like this. Yaseen<br />
could have…He didn't bother with Yaseen.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: He know my main aim is… The big one. It's Ridwaan. And uh then he said…He used to pick<br />
up Ridwaan<br />
from Daral-ulam (theological<br />
learning institute). Take him there to their house. Then…He<br />
gave<br />
me my talaq (divorce cree) on the sixth. And on the second of May…he…got married… to this<br />
woman.<br />
He still…Ridwaan came, he said: "Ma, it's extension six mosque lunch". I say: "Why must Yaseen<br />
dress<br />
up? Is your father getting married today? (In a playfully harsh tone). "No Ma, he's not getting<br />
married. We're going for the lunch". I said: "No man, you're lying, I'm sure your father is getting married".<br />
No body told me nothing. You know I just say things also.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Laughs.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"He said: "No, Ma man, we're going to extension six for lunch". In the meantime the children<br />
128
also don't know.<br />
INTER VIEWER: Okay.<br />
JU BEIDA:<br />
After the lunch there in extension six, then… they went to the granny. From the granny and<br />
them<br />
they went to Zack Park. And that's when they saw: "Huh, my daddy's getting married". I'm telling you<br />
this one. Then Yaseen came home. That night there was people. "How Yaseen, where's you're koerta and<br />
you're…<br />
kofia? "No, it was Rayhaan's birthday. I said: "Reyhaan's birthday is May. I'ts not Reyhaan's<br />
birthday.<br />
You're telling lies". "No, we were Ma, we were in Zack Park, there was a birthday party (in a<br />
child-like<br />
tone)". He's got sweets in his pockets and everything. My child, you know, he loves nice things.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: One thing, he can't be bothered. Only afterwards he came and he sat behind my back.<br />
"Mommy, you know what? Daddy<br />
got married today (whispering)".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Laughs.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
So I said: "Did she wear my rings (whispering)".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Laughs.<br />
JUBEIDA: Laughs. Because why the kids know my rings you know (laughing).<br />
"No, she wore Mamma's<br />
rings. I said: "Siss, couldn't he afford to buy her rings". You know. "Where they<br />
staying?" "No, by her<br />
mo ther's place". Oh, fine. And about a week or two later, he phoned me. And I don't know, what happened<br />
and I said: "Oh, slamat (congratulations)<br />
I hear you got married". He say: "Ja". I say: "Oh that's nice". But<br />
I say:<br />
" Slamat I'm divorced now". Because why he got married on the second and on the sixth, because<br />
why<br />
he didn't…Then the divorce papers… went through, you know. The same day I filed for divorce and I<br />
filed<br />
for maintenance for the children. You know. So, he didn't fill in the forms. So I had to back to the<br />
sheriff<br />
to pick up the forms. So Faisal came to fetch me. And that same morning when I went to see the<br />
sheriff<br />
I got his uncle. You know and that was now after months, from Eid (religious holy day) till<br />
Bakhari<br />
Eid, till after Bakhari Eid then I met his uncle and we were having a long chat here outside. You<br />
know<br />
at the bus stop. And he still said: "You know Juby, we were all waiting, when are you gonna wake<br />
up…to<br />
smell the coffee.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Wow.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
It took you so many years… to wake up.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You really did a wise decision.<br />
INTERVIEWER: His uncle.<br />
JU BEIDA: His own uncle. His mother's brother…told me that. "We were to afraid to tell you what to do.<br />
We were waiting, when are you gonna<br />
wake up? You finally woke up to see what's happening. Mm? How<br />
cou ld<br />
you take it for so many years? ". And I'm telling you, everybody's asking me: "Juby, after so many<br />
years?<br />
What happened? You finally…It took you so long".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: I say: "Allah gives you that".<br />
You know. Allah gives you that hidyyat (guidance).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
129
JUBEIDA: He gives you that saber (perseverance). You always say: "Tomorrow. Tomorrow it will be<br />
better,<br />
tomorrow it will be better". And at the end of the day you just say to yourself : "Ya (oh) Allah, I get<br />
enough<br />
on my plate. And if Allah feel that it's not gonna go anywhere, it' gonna happen.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why I got that<br />
belief that nothing happen without the gudarat (will) of Allah.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: Nothing. If Allah wants it to happen…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: …it's going to happen. And at the right time, at the right…day. You know right everything.<br />
INTERVIEWER: So, you felt that<br />
you're time will come.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I felt…now my time is right. Because why I'm telling you since I went for the interdict. After<br />
the interdict, I went to file for the divorce. The paper work went, it went smooth.<br />
It's just that, everything<br />
just fell into place like, you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Like… the interdict. The papers, they accepted all the paper work all of a sudden.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. I mean when I, the day when I went for the filing for the divorce, you know. This<br />
lawyer<br />
that helped me also, she just…filled in everything. And she still said: "Don't ask for so little, ask for<br />
so much<br />
money, you know (hurried tone). Tell him you want 'this' maintenance and if the court then find<br />
tha t no it's too much, they bring it down. You're not gonna loose out. You know. At least you're making<br />
something for your children and everything<br />
(hurried tone). All she said to me: "Go buy a twenty rand<br />
stamp".<br />
And the rest of the papers she filled in for me. I went to go buy the stamp. I came back (hurried<br />
tone).<br />
But that day it was like, I could go back to work (calmer tone). You know. And everything just fell<br />
into place. And then she said to me: "You must just get this letter to… the, the dingese the sheriff. You<br />
know.<br />
And …I went. I took a day off the next day and I went to the sheriff. You know. And it's like, I also<br />
came<br />
into Lenz, I didn't know here the sheriff…Because why the nearest…Because why he's in Zack Park,<br />
is…Lenz.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know. Went to go look for the sheriff. And where I got off, the sheriff was just opposite<br />
the road, you know and it just fell all in to place like.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Wow.<br />
JU BEIDA: I said: "Ya (oh) Allah,<br />
You know best".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. "If you want it to happen: shukar (thank you)".<br />
This means it really has to happen.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. And the sheriff took the letter to his… mother's<br />
house. Because why he was still<br />
130
living by his mom. And uh…dingese….But nobody… took notice of reading the letter. They took the letter<br />
and they stuck it all on the cupboard where everybody's letters is.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: He also didn't read the<br />
letter. He left it. Now you get uh…ten days…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: …to reply on that mm your, your divorce papers. And …then Zhoggie phoned me. His uncle's<br />
daughter. "Juby, what's happening?".<br />
I say: " What's happening Zho?". "There was a letter there, and, you<br />
know,<br />
I opened it and I read (laughing). I say: "It's a divorce paper (in a firm tone)".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I say: "Oh, didn't he fill it in?". She said: "No, it's still laying there". Nobody bothering to look<br />
at it. I say: "Oh yes, I did file for a divorce Zhogie. He gave me my talaq (divorce cree)". And then he still,<br />
he went to go brag by that "That oh,<br />
for you know, Yaseen is so old already, it's the first time I bought him<br />
a pair<br />
of school shoes". Because why then I demanding: "Yaseen has no school shoes, you have to buy him,<br />
I've got no money".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JU BEIDA: Cause why also,<br />
I was broke, you know, cause why he left me with a two thousand rand of<br />
petrol…bill, on my credit card…that<br />
I had to pay. You know, and I paid it. He left me with a phone account<br />
of a thousand and something. Which<br />
I had to put the phone on, just incoming calls, no outgoing calls.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Until I could pay it. Now I…it's like, now I really get my budget you know. I had to cut.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And I have to slowly.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
To pay everything off.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And…But like I said, Allah<br />
made it so that …I could pay it off you know. Wherever I asked:<br />
"Listen, can you give me grace, they<br />
could. They did the phone for me so that I could pay it off till I could<br />
pay it full again and things like that. And reconnect the phone. And when I got to the sheriff's office, when<br />
I<br />
gave that<br />
letter, they said: "Fifty-six rand", I could<br />
pay the fifty-six rand. I didn't even… squeal about it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I got into the taxi. It's like: "Shu-hu (as in a sigh of relief), shukar (thanks), I'm going to<br />
be…Juby,<br />
really you? You going to leave him after so many years. Hi-gee, I'm happy (in an animated<br />
tone).<br />
I was…quite a different person when I walked out of …The last thing was when I got to the sheriff's<br />
-office,<br />
is to walk out there, then I really felt: "Oh, gee, I'm gonna be free". Then Okay, the other things<br />
came:<br />
"Oh shit! No he's gonna perform about the children, this and that".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
131
JUBEIDA: Oh well, "Ya (oh) Allah, You know what's best".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: If he has to…whatever.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Then we had another meeting with Jamiat. With the mawlanas (religious ministers). Twice he<br />
didn't rocked up. The third time I got<br />
to there, then mawlana told me: "Listen, it seems like this thing is<br />
gonna<br />
go through because why now he didn't come out for three…dingese. And then he told me about my<br />
children.<br />
That the father got all the rights.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why he, they under age. They're seven.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: The one is nearly mubalagh, nearly baligh (one who has reached<br />
puberty) and the other one is<br />
under, so it's the father's responsibility now. There's no girls so you've got no say. If he takes the children,<br />
there's<br />
nothing you can do.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Islamically.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Islamically. This is mos now…I want my Islamic view.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: I'm still not worried. I did file for the Western because why this is to free me, because why…<br />
through…<br />
his mother and them I was married in court (in a rapid tone).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA: So, I want to have no…dingese…I want no thingies with him, you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: I want to break now free<br />
completely, everything. I want …Irrespective, if he, even if he takes<br />
his furnisher,<br />
I couldn't care. I was<br />
to that stage that: "Hey! He can take the furnisher, he can take the<br />
bakkie,<br />
he can take everything I worked for. As long as I'm gonna get rid of him (in a very rapid tone).<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: Out of my life I'm gonna get him. Free, I don't want him. Really, I want that, you know. And<br />
uh…Then,<br />
when the mawlana told me I'm gonna loose my children, Islamically, everything, I burst<br />
out crying.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: He said to me: "Mommy,<br />
you can cry all you want to but like I tell you, it's gonna be better for<br />
you. If you<br />
loose your children, because<br />
why a woman in Islam gets married again and the next husband,<br />
like you see that man who walked out here (there was a man just came out before me), you see his marriage<br />
is, the<br />
wife got the children. And they have no understanding about the children because why …her, their<br />
arguments<br />
come: she takes her children's part".<br />
132
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: "She never listens to him. And he can't take it anymore".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: So he wants to talaq (divorce)her on that.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm<br />
JUBEIDA: He say: "Everything else, that woman is fine, as a woman in Islam but only because of the<br />
children's sake, the man can't take<br />
it. He says: "If you are the type of woman that wants to get married<br />
again, let<br />
your children go. Even if you do it for the sake of your children but remember, your children is<br />
gonna<br />
grow up.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "They're gonna<br />
come back to you.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "They will see it. So whatever he do, if he takes the children, let them go. But we, I'm telling<br />
you Mommy,<br />
one day, they will come back to you.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I said: "Okay" (close to tears).<br />
INTERVIEWER: Wow. That must have been a big thing for you.<br />
JU BEIDA: If it has to happen like that…(crying)<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:…Ya<br />
(oh) Allah, I accept it (crying).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Then I came to realize,<br />
as I'm walking back to work: "Ja, but kids do grow up", you know.<br />
They will look and they will weight<br />
the scale…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JU BEIDA: … And they will say:<br />
"But Mommy used to do this, Daddy used to do that. Daddy's still doing<br />
this,<br />
Mommy's like that.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know, let's see where it's…gonna be.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Right.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
So, Ya (oh) Allah, You<br />
know what's best. If I have to have the kids, shukkar (thank you). If I<br />
don't have to, it's gonna be my second<br />
time…I'm loosing them. So, no problem by me. And it came that,<br />
oka y, he left Yaseen because why<br />
then, he didn't have much place to stay. Ridwan was at Daral- Unum<br />
133
(Islamic learning institute), coming and going. He used to poison the child's mind. I'm telling you, I had a…<br />
rough<br />
time in ninety-nine. Because why… I even cried over the phone. I even told my son that: "Well if<br />
that's<br />
how you feel, forget about me as a mother. I'm dead to you".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why that's how<br />
far I stood to get my children, you know, to understand. Then he said:<br />
"Ja, what<br />
type of a mother are you, to tell your son that you're dead".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: I said: "That's the type of mother I am".<br />
INTERVIEWER: He's now playing with you.<br />
JUBEIDA: Ja. He's now …He really waved my children in front of me as a carrot in front of a donkey.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes, yes.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I said: "You know what? I'm willing to do that. To write my children off, for the sake of my<br />
happiness and my freedom. Because why<br />
mad! I'm not gonna get, Faisal. You're not gonna make me mad.<br />
I want my freedom. I want my…My life,<br />
that I had, I want it back. Not for jolling, not for going to disco's<br />
or going<br />
to friends, but my life".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUB<br />
EIDA: The life I want. I want it back. And I said: "Even if I must write my son off to you".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "You can have that. But remember,<br />
they're gonna grow up. And you couldn't have that son all<br />
by yourself. We made it together."<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. I cried. My mother looked at me. I said: "Ma, I'll cry but one day, my tears gonna<br />
dry up. And when it dries up, yous are gonna tell me I'm a horrible witch".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And they never believed<br />
me. They never believed me. Until… last year…was it this year? This<br />
year<br />
January.<br />
You see this big son of mine, he tempt me. You know that kids play's you up now.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja. They do.<br />
JU BEIDA: It's like: "Oh Ma, I'll go to my father, oh you just say that". My father: "Oh, I'll go to my<br />
mother".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. And that's how they play<br />
us off. And then, I never phoned him, he always phones<br />
me and<br />
that is where I, I got the upper hand on<br />
him. I he phones me. He gives me a subject: "Oh, Ridwan<br />
this".<br />
Then I jus let go of what I feel about Ridwan. Or, he tells Yaseen… "Oh, you know what, you don't<br />
support<br />
your children, right? Fine. The divorce is through, you're pay two three months. So big deal, Boy!"<br />
You can't afford<br />
looking after your children. So who am I. I'm still your bloody slave! Looking after your<br />
134
loody children. It's mos your bloody children, nê?".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I was just there to give<br />
the thing. You know I just got lekker.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JU BEIDA: So, it's your children.<br />
Fine. But I'm still supporting your children. Huh? So. And I just let go. I<br />
don't give him… a second chance<br />
to answer me (rapid tone). And when he wants to answer, I put the phone<br />
down.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why now, he's frustrated. He didn't get his say.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And I know, it works on him, you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA: So wh en he goes home, he must go moer her (laughs). He has<br />
to go fight with her. He has to<br />
find somebody<br />
to take his frustration out. And that is where, what I'm still,<br />
I'm still playing on it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Cause I know what type of a person he is.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: He's a very short tempered<br />
person. He's a arrogant person. And if you don't give him a<br />
hearing, he gets like very mad. He can even break his hand on a wall.<br />
That's how angry he gets, if he don't<br />
get his<br />
way. And, because I was so long with him, I know what irritates<br />
him. What piss him off.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And lots of people don't.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. And that is what<br />
I do to him now. I'm tormenting him on the other way. Cause I<br />
got so much hatred…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: …that he can die in front<br />
of me, and if water or my spit can help him, I wouldn't even give him<br />
that.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I wouldn't. He played my son up to me and …then Ridwaan tried to tempt me also. And …in<br />
December, he used to come in Ramdhaan<br />
(holiest month in Islam during which Muslims are obligated to<br />
fast) , now we fasting, come and go<br />
as he want to, to his friends and whatever. Okay, you give them that<br />
leniency<br />
in Ramdhaan. Okay, you can boeka (break your fast) here one night, you can sleep there one<br />
night,<br />
it's holiday, things like that.<br />
135
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: But just after Eid (religious<br />
holy day). Eid day what happened is, he gave… I don't know if it's<br />
the truth. Because why like he can lie, his sons can lie.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: He said he gave the child<br />
five hundred rand, the son, the child said he gave him two hundred<br />
rand. Then he came: "Ma…". Then<br />
I was so cross, I said: "Ma, you know what? It's his duty to buy his<br />
children<br />
clothing. I'm no gonna buy. Every year I buy and…he just gets lekker.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: So, this year I'm not buying. He must buy. Because why the year before that I bought Ridwaan<br />
a shoe of six hundred rand. You know.<br />
And he like: "Oh jee, your mother can afford it, huh? Your wearing<br />
ver y expensive<br />
shoes". So he said:<br />
"My mother bought it for me".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: You know. Things like that. Kulthum! My husband hated her. It's like she's instigating me and<br />
you know he blames everyone.<br />
INTER VIEWER: Your mother, now?<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
No, my husband.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja?<br />
JUBEIDA: He…he still don't like her, Kulthum. Because why she's like instigating me, because why<br />
she's a single mother and things like that.<br />
You know he never thought that I could make up my mind…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
…myself. You know. And that it took so many years.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: From two years, that<br />
I could build up. I got all that, you know. And then finally when it came<br />
to mental abuse. You know physical abuse you can take. But when it comes to mental<br />
abuse. It's the worse<br />
thing<br />
any person…can go through.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why, you know what? If you're weak, all that, that the next person is saying to you, it<br />
works<br />
on you. And you start… want to live that…type of life. You're inferior.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: You, you're not the person you really feel you in you. You started breaking up that…selfconfidence.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. So, you doubt yourself, you start believing what they say.<br />
JU BEIDA: You start believing what they say to you, you know. And some people fall into that<br />
trap of<br />
136
start living that type of life.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: If you're not strong enough,<br />
you break.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I'm telling you, I come<br />
from there. I went…when it came to physi…,mentally abuse, that's<br />
when I said: "No, Boy. Now you're<br />
going to far. You're not gonna break me that much".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Mentally is because why, ag well, you're gonna smack me now, you gonna kick me. Good and<br />
well<br />
(loud tone).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I can take that.<br />
I've got the mark for it. But mentally, it sits on you.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: Because why it's words that's thrown at you. And you start… weighing the words, you know.<br />
Where<br />
a punch, you don't weight it. It's there. It's done.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes, yes.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
But words, you start weighing them.<br />
RESERACHER: Mm. They have so much meaning.<br />
JUBEIDA: You say: "Did he mean it this way…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JU BEIDA: "…did he mean it that way. Is it really? What type of a person am I? Am I that type of a<br />
person? (whispering tone)."<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "Am I really becoming that?<br />
(whispering)."<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Some people go in to that direction. That's why I think…That's why a lot of women that<br />
drin ks, they go in to that direction.<br />
They start going in that direction. It's like he told me I'm gonna become<br />
mu rtad<br />
(one who gives up Islam). I will…wouldn't care about my children. Now, the only thing he don't<br />
know<br />
is that, I'm the type of person, don't tell me I can't do a thing.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: I'll show you.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Now, you will do it.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I can, will do it and I can try and better myself. I'm gonna try not to become what you want me<br />
137
to be. I'm gonna try and do it better so that I can proof to you: I can stand on my legs. Like he thought I, I<br />
wouldn't<br />
be able to stand on my legs.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: I wouldn't be able to, to keep up. You know. And things like that. Because why he think I'm<br />
dependent on a man.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Which he couldn't see<br />
that, I do everything myself.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Exactly. Throughout the years.<br />
JUBEIDA: Throughout the years he's married to me, I try and do things for myself. So, how come I'<br />
dependent<br />
on a man.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA:<br />
I take it, women,<br />
that goes from a divorce… down, they have no self-esteem. They pity<br />
the mselves.<br />
They depend on that husband. That man.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And there are men…I feel, like today I feel men is nothing.<br />
You don't have to depend…they're<br />
just another human being.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
They're there to support you. I don't say I'm not gonna get married again. I feel very happy. I<br />
can feel that I achieved what I want…Not<br />
wanted in life. I don't have yet what I want. And uh…but my life<br />
is getting<br />
back on track.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I'm starting to manage things. I'm starting to things that I wanted to do in life. And my life is<br />
much<br />
better…than what it was with him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: Over the years. For this<br />
two years, I've achieved more than what I achieved in my fourteen<br />
years,<br />
fifteen years of marriage, eleven years of living with my mother. I achieved what I wanted to<br />
in…For<br />
that leven years, I achieved in two years.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Like I said, I could even<br />
afford a to buy me a new panty. Really, I weren't lying to you. And I<br />
mean<br />
I can buy now for me, what I couldn't do when I was married.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Which is…It doesn't make sense.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
It doesn't make sense. I mean I was married. I had a companion. It's like, he was suppose to<br />
138
say: "Hey Doll, I see your panties are finished, hey man jirr, go buy you a new panty".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja, ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: "Hey Doll, your shoes are finished. Go buy you a new pair of shoes. Hey man, that dress is not<br />
nice<br />
for work,<br />
get you new dresses. Although I belief in having five dresses for work, Monday to Friday.<br />
And<br />
then Saturday Sunday I wear what I had on Monday or Tuesday. You understand. I still have that. And<br />
If I take one out, I make me a new dress.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Although I can sew, I still<br />
make me as I need a dress.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: You understand.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: But…that is how my life is suppose<br />
to be. You know. And I can afford things. I don't have<br />
that<br />
of: "Oh, if I buy for me, must I buy for him".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I have to ask for this. What is gonna be said.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Things like that. You know. Although, I still have that: I'm gonna get married again. I am<br />
goi ng to get married and I told my mom and them, since the end of last year, I am getting married. Even if I<br />
become<br />
someone's…second wife.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
But I am going to.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: It's not because why:<br />
Oh, I… But the thing is, you're not getting married to the same person.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA: Now you gonna look for what… you really want in life. What I really wanted in a man, now<br />
I'm gonna take deeper. Like I told<br />
my nephew, he must first take out his bank statement for me. And show<br />
me his car papers (laughs).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Laughs.<br />
JUBEIDA: No faking, this my car and<br />
I earn so much.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes, yes.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I want to see his bank statement. Really, you can afford me (laughing).<br />
INTER VIEWER: So, you're gonna<br />
be more careful.<br />
139
JUBEIDA: And do you have car papers, this is not your friends papers (laughs). I don't have to work for<br />
things,<br />
you're gonna give me a life. Even if you have a wife but if he can give me a house. You don't have<br />
to support<br />
my children. Because I'll tell him: "Listen I'll work to see my kids through".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: As long as you give me<br />
my grocery money. You're happy the way we live. Whether you come<br />
once a month, once a week, as long as I got somebody that's a companion. Because why you see my mom<br />
is old.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: She left two or three opportunities for marriage, thinking of her children.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Right oh. She gave her life up for us.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And today? We don't care about her, we have our own<br />
lives to live. Although I'm living with<br />
her, I try and make it as comfortable as I can.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
But you can never do what a companion do.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: You sleep there…You<br />
got a pain, he puts his hand there, you feel happy: Oh jee there's<br />
somebody<br />
caring.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes, sure.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. Even if he's snoring but his hand is there on that pain, it helps with the panado that<br />
you taking, you know (laughing tone) .<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja (laughing).<br />
JUBEIDA: Or you got a problem, you need somebody to talk to. You cannot sit and talk to your children<br />
about things.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
No, you can't.<br />
JUBEIDA: I mean I sit and I joke with Faisal<br />
and them.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: I talk shit<br />
with them. I talk shit with their mother. You know. We joke our lives and<br />
everything. But you still have those certain things you wanna discuss with a close companion.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sure.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Somebody that's intimate to you.<br />
140
INTERVIEWER: Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. And that's<br />
what I'm still looking for.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And I'm still gonna get<br />
that. That's what I'm still gonna do. Because I know, my kids are<br />
gonna get married. On day they gonna say: "Oh hell, here's this old lady again. Huh?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sure.<br />
JU BEIDA: "Oh jee, my mother is still there". Which daughter-in-law is gonna look after me?<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Me? That's so talkative. I sit with another aunty's daughter, she'll put me quick out.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Laughs.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Now, that is now my life is.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Uh.<br />
JUBEIDA: So that's how I got out of it. It took a long<br />
time to build up. I'm a person who can hold out for<br />
years. I can tolerate a lot. Which you get people that<br />
can't.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
My sister…went cuckoo. My sister is divorced as well. We're got a family…In my<br />
family…most<br />
of the women are divorced.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Uh.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
If you look at it, my mom's eldest sister died, she was a divorced but her husband had another<br />
woman.<br />
She even raised that women's child when that woman died. My mom's sister, opposite the road, she<br />
divorced<br />
her husband or they separated.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Uh.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Until he died. My mom left my father.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Okay, after a couple of months, three months, you're talaq has fallen.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Although they, he never gave her a talaq, until he died.<br />
My father was killed. And I only met<br />
him at<br />
the age of fifteen. So to me<br />
he was died long time.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I was a very rebellious child.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
141
JUBEIDA: And I'm a very…headstrong child.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Were all those relationships abusive?<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Uh… no.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Not.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Not really.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: My one cousin got divorced,<br />
remarried again. Right? That's my eldest cousin. And it's mainly<br />
in the girls. The second one was abusive.<br />
My second cousin, my auntie that died's daughter. Her husband<br />
was abusive.<br />
Because he's seeing another woman…<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: …in their marriage. And it took her family to go and fetch her in Bloemfontein, to bring her<br />
home. She's divorced. My…her baby<br />
sister, the husband died after their child was born. She's still divorced.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know. My sister, my baby sister, was married twice. And twice divorced.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
She got three kids out of it. The little one you hear?<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: That's her baby…from the second marriage. She's also a 'don't-care'. You know. She is blaming<br />
eve rybody and everything in life but herself to pull her life right. I say my mom gave us what she could.<br />
She gave us a little Islam, even though we can't read Arabic. Shukar (thanks) for<br />
that, she kept us on the<br />
deen<br />
(religion).<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
She did everything. We must make shukar. It's what we made out of life.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Sure.<br />
JUBEIDA: From school time until now what we want to make out of Islam and out of our own lives.<br />
Right? My other sister got three kids.<br />
She was married once. She's divorced now six years. But she went<br />
cuckoo.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And I mean my eldest<br />
sister is on…medication. Because why she's a mental case. She went<br />
off.<br />
Really.<br />
And…. well it's a bad thing to say but at the end I told my brother, ex-brother-in-law, that: "Listen<br />
here,<br />
my sister is putting you through so much hell, and you still stick it. It seems like it's over between<br />
yous.<br />
Why don't<br />
you do the final things? Now it's considered the husband get the child. You know. If the<br />
children, I if it's<br />
not the wife. And she get maintained even though she is sickly. And the government is<br />
still, up to today that she's living on her own, working, the government is still looking after her. And they<br />
still. And they still see that she gets<br />
her medication and that she get her work.<br />
142
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. And she's<br />
quite happy now.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Nê?<br />
JUBEIDA: She's living on her own.<br />
She was here last here in August. We had a good chat. Now we can, as<br />
sist er,<br />
we can talk to each other. Before we used to fight over the phone. And until one day, I got so mad to<br />
her and I just told her what I felt as a sister.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Now, she is much lighter than me. She looks a White. My sister can pass as White.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know, and then she said she's White, she's not like us. I say: "Oh well, your ass might be<br />
wh ite but I've got a big white ring on my back side that's whiter then yours". You know. And things like<br />
that. Because why I'm, I'm very rebellious,<br />
first of all, like I said.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I'm still like that. And nobody is gonna sit on my head.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And tell me what they want to.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And that is how we<br />
are. And I think after I had a good chat with her also, tell her what is life<br />
all about, I think that's when she realized: "Hey, it's not gonna<br />
help me to be in a mental house every time.<br />
It's not<br />
gonna help me to take all these medication." That up…from that time till now, she's taking a quarter<br />
tab let…a day. Where she used to be on s full three or four tablets a day.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know. So I take it as: You sometimes, you have to cruel to be kind.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And like me the day my son decided: "I'm going to my father!" I said: "Good Boy". This year<br />
January, he said: "I'm going to my father".<br />
I said: "Fine, you wanna go? I'm not crying anymore my baby.<br />
Go. I'll<br />
help you pack". Then the father came here, he asked me: "Now why you're standing behind the<br />
wall?"<br />
I say you're a non-mahram (mahram relative or someone she's not eligible to marry) to me. "Oh, but<br />
you're speaking to other non-mahrams".<br />
I say: "Those ones I want. You I don't want anymore. Sorry, Boy.<br />
So you're a non-mahram. Veil's suppose<br />
to be there. The veils don't have to be there for the others, I want<br />
the m and I'll go for them" (laughs).<br />
You know. Because he always used to give me that of non-mahram.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know when we were married. "You're not suppose to speak to a non-mahram. My<br />
brothers<br />
are non-mahrams and things, you understand.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
143
JUBEIDA: But you accuse me with the non-mahrams, so? The appas (religious teachers) with the<br />
boerkas<br />
(veils) on, with the veils on, they speak to non-mahrams. What's wrong with me?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm. Ja, ja.<br />
JU BEIDA: So, you're a non-mahram, stand by the door, I don't see you, klaar.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Keep you distance.<br />
JUBEIDA: Ja. And I helped him packed. And they<br />
were shocked. My mother was shocked.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So, even though you stayed for their sake, mostly, but sort of, its your turn now.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Ja. It's my turn. Now I lash at him. I don't give him… shit. I don't want to hear about him. You<br />
wanna<br />
tell me how he look? I don't want to know. I can tell you his life is in shambles. His life is shit.<br />
Sin ce his married for the last two years, he sleeps by how many different places, he keeps on moving.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Because why that woman…and that woman, she's not me! Excuse me. She wants her outfits<br />
and week-ends she goes to papa.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Because why her mother died just<br />
after they got married. And my, the day in June, my grandfather-in-law<br />
past away. They, well that's the<br />
only time my mother-in-law phoned to tell my mother my<br />
grand-father-in-law past away. Then my auntie -in-laws…all of them…I must say I've got good in-laws,<br />
they insisted I've been there. I cried,<br />
I didn't want to go. Then they said: "But it's your appa (teacher),<br />
fourteen years. Who the hell is she.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I said: "No, I don't want a situation. Because why I didn't know how it gonna happen.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why that will<br />
be the first day I'm gonna see her really.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: At the mayet (funeral). And they insist. They wanted to come fetch me at work. I said: "No, I'll<br />
come". I went there, the mayet went<br />
out at seven. I went half-an-hour before the mayet (deceased body)<br />
left<br />
the house. I went and…I greeted my mother-in-law. Because why she was in the passage as I came in. I<br />
went to<br />
everybody. Everybody was happy to see me, shaukar (thanks) for that. And they said:<br />
"We thought<br />
you're not coming. We wanted to come<br />
and fetch you actually. I said: "No, I told yous…"<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"…I'll come to the last bit". My mom was there the whole day and uh… After the mayet left I<br />
wanted<br />
to leave. They said no, I must come and eat. They made me stay by telling me to carry the food<br />
from<br />
next door in. And I helped. You know afterwards I became myself again. Washing dishes, carrying<br />
the food, cleaning the tables, you know what she turned around and she went to go and tell them? "Oh,<br />
Juby<br />
was so bar for me. She even served on me, she wanted to see me". And you know when I took that<br />
144
woman's plate, I didn't even know it was her.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja (laughs).<br />
JUBEIDA: I said: "If I knew it was her, I would<br />
have asked her: "Hey, where's my bloody rings?" But<br />
when<br />
he phoned me one night, when we had an argument about the child, I told him: "You know what?<br />
(Oh,<br />
her name is Shanaaz). You know, if you love Shanaaz so much, you wouldn't sleep on her bloody bed.<br />
You<br />
know what? You will buy her a new bed".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "You can't even bloody<br />
afford a bed".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You can't even bloody afford a bed for her, so what love. Do you call that love?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You just got married to show me you can get married. But, boy, I got news for you, it doesn't<br />
hurt me<br />
one bit. Oh, he calls me back<br />
and I put the phone down (laughs). " Oh, you know what? You're<br />
que stioning my love for Shanaaz. " I say: "Yes I do. Cause why if you love a woman, you're not sleeping in<br />
her bed. You're gonna make sure. Even if you didn't buy her furnisher. The first thing you're gonna do: I<br />
don't<br />
wanna sleep in another man's bed".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Even if that bed is new, you're still gonna buy a new bed for her. Huh? I say: "But what did<br />
you do. Shit did you buy her for over the years, huh? Two years, you didn't buy her shit! You're still<br />
sleeping in her bed (laughs)". And she still runs to her father. They were now, in Ramdhaan, they were like<br />
sep arated for a couple of months. She lost about three to four kids already. The one day in Ramdhaan<br />
Ya seen<br />
came, my small one: "Ma,<br />
you know what? Shanaaz is pit in the legs". Then he burst out laughing.<br />
What<br />
the hell? "Ja Ma, Shanaaz is pit in the legs. She has to go to hospital. She's in hospital (laughs)". And<br />
we're<br />
laughing. In the meantime the child is in the tube. I mean now. What does that show you? His life is<br />
not good. His life is a misery.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
So, one of our friends phoned the other day. She said she's going to sue him because he<br />
sweared<br />
her ugly here in the centre. I said: "You know what? To go to him and speak it out, it's not gonna<br />
help.<br />
The only thing where you're gonna<br />
get through to his thick scull? Send him a interdict or sue him.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: She said: "Juby, that is true." You know. She say: "You know why is he going on like this? He<br />
is missing<br />
you because why you spoiled him over the years.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I say: "Well, I just did what any normal person would do to live a happy life".<br />
INTERVIEWER: Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
I say: "Because why I come from a family that was broken up".<br />
What I have now, its never<br />
what I've planned for my children. I always promised myself: I will not divorce.<br />
Because why it's<br />
something that he always used to say:<br />
"You're family, all the women in your family divorce".<br />
145
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Huh? And I said: "One<br />
day, insha-Allah (God willing) my life wouldn't be like that. I will try<br />
and make a success of my marriage.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Huh?<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. So<br />
that was part of the reason why you hung in…<br />
JU BEIDA: It was part of the ….to say : Hey, my life is…this is not what I wanted. Because why when I<br />
got married I told myself I don't want a abusive life. I want a happy life. I always see my life<br />
as being<br />
happy, full of love.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. Having<br />
the caring husband. You know. Even if he don't work but he must be<br />
caring, he must be loving. Like I said<br />
to Faisal, I mean I want a husband that can bath me. He can carry<br />
me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know. It's like: "Oh Doll, I'll do it!" You know. "You did it for me. I'll do it" . Not the<br />
husband that just wants to take all the time. Somebody that just wants you to do all the time for him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
It must be a give and take.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. That's what<br />
I want in life. The they laugh. They say: "Auntie Juby, where…". I<br />
say: "I'm gonna get a husband like that. I want a tall<br />
husband that can carry me ( laughing). You know. No,<br />
and that is… my life really. And I really I'm very happy<br />
the way I am now.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. What do you<br />
think of, of abuse in , among "Coloureds"?<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
It's a typical thing.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "Coloured" wives, it's typical and it's becoming now, it's going in to the Indian community as<br />
well.<br />
Where it was first, uh before, when I was a child I always used to see it in Black people only.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why, you see,<br />
I grew up in Port Elizabeth. I was born in Johannesburg, grew up in<br />
Por t Elizabeth. Where you used to get the "Coloureds" and the Blacks living in a community.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And you always used to see the Blacks, always hitting their wives.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
146
JUBEIDA: You know. And because why they having…Blacks was the first lot to have more than one<br />
wife.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Or either you see the wives<br />
fighting amongst each other, when the husband is like out. Or the<br />
husband coming to beat up the woman.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. And you always<br />
used to see that. And then I lived, we moved to from uh<br />
Cleinsville, we moved to Bethalsdorp.<br />
In the house we lived, there was a couple. They weren't married,<br />
righ t oh. But it was a beautiful woman. She was really looked as White as well. The guy wasn't bad<br />
looking.<br />
But because they were on drugs. Drinking, mainly.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. Because why that time drugs was a out thing. It was mainly<br />
liquor and dagga.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
He used to beat her up. And I always used to say to myself: "Why is this woman taking this<br />
from<br />
this<br />
man?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And…you know that fight like cats and dogs. She's blue, purple, you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: And she goes back to him. She's like putty in his hands. And they all loving again to for Friday<br />
night<br />
to happen again.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Same story.<br />
JUBEIDA: Same old story. I always asked myself: "Why is she doing it?"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: And I could never understand why, you know? In fact I think they do it because why…<br />
sometimes<br />
there's so much love in you.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: You just want to give.<br />
But the next opposite person, don't want to take it. You know. They<br />
take…and, and once they know what's<br />
your weakness, nê?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm?<br />
JUBEIDA: What I found out is the minute they find out what's your weakness. Maybe you love them so<br />
much that you'll give you're life for<br />
them.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Or, okay, you got kids with them.<br />
147
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why "Coloureds<br />
is mainly…kids.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Right? You will fight for that children.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: Because why most of the "Coloured", elderly people, come out of bad homes.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why you must know our "Coloured" people have that trade: Father was abusive, you<br />
come out of a abusive home. Or your<br />
come from uh a jolled father.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Many of the fathers were jolling.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA: So now you carry it over: "I don't want it. Oh my husband can joll,<br />
I'm gonna look the other<br />
way"<br />
.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know.<br />
INTERVIEWER: But you wanna keep it together at all cost.<br />
JUBEIDA: But you wanna keep it together<br />
because why for the sake of my children. My mother used to<br />
do it.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA: It's like I come out of a family, my mother used to do it. My mother<br />
used to stick. My father<br />
used<br />
to beat her up. But she used to stick, she was there for us.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I'm gonna do it. The boys<br />
become again. They become aggressive to their wives. And they<br />
can't understand<br />
why the wives can't take it because why maybe that wife comes out of a family where it's<br />
loving!<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA: And he comes out of …abusive family, so he becomes abusive to that. But the girl is: Oh, my<br />
mother did it, let me try it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You<br />
know. And she's gonna do everything, you know….She'll even be killed. A lot of women<br />
get killed<br />
for that.<br />
148
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Due…And she goes into<br />
denial. The main thing is you go into denial, because why you're still<br />
covering<br />
that mess. Because why you don't want your children to be hurt ( in a whispering tone).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You don't want people<br />
outside, to know what's inside. You give that rosy cover, you know.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And that is what is wrong with our "Coloureds",<br />
that we keep up that front: "Hey people<br />
mustn't<br />
know what's going on."<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: But people can hear, they can see.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I know, the day the day Faisal…broke my finger,<br />
because why I, I, I was, uh I didn't want him<br />
to h it Ridwan. You know what I told them at work? I was playing with the boys and they hurt my finger.<br />
The I go to that : "Hey man, Juby!<br />
Covering up for this ugly… thing! Mm? It's no gonna happen Juby.<br />
You're<br />
gonna do it once,…"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
"…it's gonna go further than this".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And I think that's also…where<br />
I got to that: "Hey, you cannot cover it up".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Its not gonna go.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Because why then you<br />
look, and you sit and think of everything and people you looked<br />
aro und. Because, I'm telling you, I looked at people's lives, before I got married. Because why my one best<br />
frie nd,<br />
my best friend, she got divorced…Due to…her husband jolling.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know. And he used<br />
to come home and lie to her and wants to beat her up. And I used to<br />
run with her in the night when he used to do that. And I always said to myself: " I don't want that type of<br />
life".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And at the end I found<br />
myself in the middle of it!<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
The exact same thing.<br />
149
JUBEIDA: You know. It's only that: I never found out that he was jolling (having an extramarital affair). I<br />
found<br />
out that he was jolling afterwards.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: I think if I knew he was jolling<br />
then, it would have been stopped earlier.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Okay.<br />
JU BEIDA: But I never knew…He did his jolling, or whatever he did outside, so discreet, that only when I<br />
really got to the creed: "Hey, enough is enough", that's when it hit me. And all the stories, I'm telling you.<br />
Stories<br />
things like…Huh? Where was I? Was I in this marriage ( in a joking tone).<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Is this the same marriage.<br />
JUBEIDA: Is it really the man I was married to? Did he really do all these things?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA:<br />
It's just that he was doing it behind my back. And I sticked it out for all these years? Huh?<br />
Then I put one and one together and<br />
I said: "Oh, that's why he did this. So that's why he came and beat me<br />
up because why he was frustrated outside to come and do it here" (soft tone of voice). That's why now,<br />
wh en he do that to me he phones me up (soft tone of voice), so now I can give him back, what he gave to<br />
me (in a loud tone)! Because why now he can't come in and do it to me.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Yes.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
He can't come and hit me.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Ja. Ja, ja.<br />
JU BEIDA: You know. So now he has to do it to somebody else. Give it to the…It's like I say: "Give it to<br />
the bitch!" I wouldn't go face her. You can give it to her.<br />
Now you don't have to mess me around. Now I<br />
can mess<br />
you over the phone. I don't even phone him.<br />
But if he phones me, boy, I can give it to him.<br />
Yo u've never seen my face or my or my voice change<br />
so quick into from …happy…to cross. And then,<br />
very abrupt… and very rude and very he avy like fighting ( in a loud animated and rapid tone). And he say:<br />
"Jubeida! You're fighting again? I didn't phone to fight". I say: " Who the hell is fighting? I'm just telling<br />
you the truth (laughs)".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So now's you're chance to just let go (laughs).<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know. I let go now. I get him back for …what he did to me…in years. And, like what<br />
people<br />
are saying, it seems like it's working. And it's killing him.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: But I told him the day he left: "My love I had for you, boy, I promise you, it's gonna kill you".<br />
And<br />
I, I mean it. It's gonna kill him… slowly.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Do you think you're feelings will ever change?<br />
JUBEIDA: I don't think so. I've, I'm that type of person I can forgive but I can never forget you.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And if you hurt me once, don't think I'm gonna ever. And I can…I've got proof over years,<br />
150
people that hurt me, I don't know if it's psychologically or is it just that it's put out, that people that hurt<br />
over<br />
years as I was a child, nê? Out of the family now, this is people that we lived with.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And as I look at their lives<br />
now, from my side of a adult, I know out of that. You know<br />
bec ause why we were poor and we were dependent on other people and they hurt me and today they don't<br />
have<br />
good lives.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: No, it's some women,<br />
really, they go deep in. You know if you're not strong enough, you go<br />
down. And that is with the "Coloured"<br />
women, they always…Because it's verbal abuse.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm?<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Physical abuse they can take. Because they get their share in. Because why I can tell you,<br />
"Coloured" women are very aggressive.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Right? So if I …You give me two, I give<br />
you one shot and the blood goes: "Hey, I had him<br />
you know"<br />
(in animated tone). She feels happy. But when it comes to verbal abuse.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You know. She starts…living that life. Because why he's abusing and that is what he labels<br />
her with. And she starts to live it.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
They're very weak. And those ones that come out, they go cuckoo. Because why they're… very<br />
dependent<br />
on men.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: It's very seldom that I've seen women-except "Coloured", even White women- that goes into<br />
they<br />
say: "Hey, I can stand on my feet and show him I can do it better".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Right.<br />
JUBEIDA: Unless, she comes out<br />
of a strong family.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
So you think it's a mental thing I mean because a lot of women are very independent,<br />
they<br />
work and whatever but …<br />
JU BEIDA: Ja, but no,…(in a high pitched tone)<br />
INTER VIEWER: …it's a mental thing, it's something up here…<br />
JUBEIDA: …it, it's mentally because why the husband, like I said the men tell you: "You inferior, you<br />
cannot<br />
do without me!"<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JU BEIDA: Because why he throws that in front: "You know<br />
what? I earn eight or three thousand rand.<br />
151
What do you earn, Darling? You earn two-fifty. What you gonna do with two fifty?".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Now you sit and you weigh. "Two-fifty, I've got rent, water and lights to pay. I've got food.<br />
Ay,<br />
I've<br />
got the children. He's gonna walk out, he's gonna leave me with the children". But she don't think<br />
of " Hey, he has to pay maintenance".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: "Then I'm gonna have<br />
extra money". You know. And if she leaves him, obviously there'll be<br />
mo re in. Because why food, you'll buy less food, you don't have to feed him. Because why he eat more<br />
meat<br />
than the children. She don't think that. They don't weight that.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Then she thinks: "Two-fifty, three hundred, put it together, five hundred<br />
rand. Jirr, I'm gonna<br />
be less off". "No! I can't let you go<br />
Darling", you know "I'll take you're abuse, yes I'll take it".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Bull shit! That don't work. You leave the three thousand. You take your two-fifty, you can go<br />
further than three thousand rand. With two-fifty. I'm telling you. And I'm telling you, she sits, she can sit<br />
in that office, she can have what job.<br />
It comes to supporting. And the type of lifestyle we live.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
That is what women can't take. They can't say to themselves…Because why now she say:<br />
"He's<br />
got the car and now I have to go back to taxi. I, he got this, I have to do this. Everything I have to do,<br />
goes according to taxi".<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Because why now she was spoiled with his …BMW his driving or whatever car yous bought<br />
together.<br />
INTERVIEWER: No you have to give up the comfort.<br />
JU BEIDA: I have to give up the comfort. I have to drag my children into the taxi. Oh jee, no more<br />
hairdresser<br />
I have to do my hair myself. What the hell! You wanna have the comfort or you wanna have the<br />
discomfort.<br />
I'll, rather have my comfort with my two-fifty, do my own hair, get in to a bloody taxi or a<br />
buss, drag my children<br />
in to it. And :"Hey, voertsek!" But you get others, I've got a friend, no honestly.<br />
Thr ee years she and her husband didn't touch each other. He's living his life, she's living her life. She is in<br />
suc h depression that she goes running and she gets so skinny. She buys the children any toy. Then she goes<br />
in to depression,<br />
she sleeps the bloody whole Sunday, and the children has to play and mess up the house<br />
like she wants to. When she's finished she gets up. Some Sundays she don't cook. When she's so<br />
depressed.<br />
Then she buys take-aways because why…she earns a good salary.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
And I mean really good salary. So she's an accountant, right? But she don't have the<br />
happiness.<br />
Why<br />
she don't wanna divorce him? Because why today mos people say your provident funds yous have to<br />
share<br />
up equally. Everything have to go evenly. But hey, you and the husband agree: "Listen here, you<br />
want<br />
your freedom, you go, I go. I keep mine is mine, although we're married in community of property,<br />
yours is<br />
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yours. What do you want in the house? You see my salary, my pension fund, my provident fund, is mine<br />
for my children. Right oh? You're not touching it. Get to agreement like that. And listen you're provident<br />
fund,<br />
you want the car, Boy, take the car. What do you want? You want the cupboards. Take the half of the<br />
house.<br />
Then, or you want half of the house? You sell the house then.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You know if it comes to<br />
that. Sell the house, share the furnisher, but my provident fund, I<br />
worked for my company, it's mine. Your provident, whatever you worked for it's yours. But the rest that we<br />
got in the house, we both worked for it, nê?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Share that. But forget about it. She doesn't want to divorce the guy because she's worried<br />
about<br />
the thirteen<br />
years of pension fund and provident fund. And she want's to live in misery? You know with<br />
our reunion, you know what he did? She got a false tooth. He hide that tooth, till after the reunion. Because<br />
why he didn't want her to go. Can you get that? She was so depressed. I said: "What the hell, Merlyn. Is it<br />
worth<br />
it? You see that you're there. Toothless or tooth not. You be there. Even if I must make you a tooth,<br />
you're<br />
gonna be there. Because why this is rubbish. You live, you've go your own way with your car, he<br />
goes<br />
his own way. Just because of one tooth that he's hide away. Then he made her so simple. He came<br />
back<br />
the Sunday early…and he dropped it in the child's… jewelry box. She looked six times in that jewelry<br />
box and she didn't find the tooth. Then all of the sudden, Monday morning, here's the tooth rocked up.<br />
Mm?<br />
Now<br />
I mean is it worth it?<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Huh? My friend was skinny at school. We used to call her Ertjies because why that's how thin<br />
her legs used to be. You must she what<br />
she looks now. She's got three children. They younger than mine. I<br />
sai d to her: "Merlyn, that's not life. Sorry.<br />
I wouldn't go through it". And that's, that's what I say, that's<br />
"C oloured women". They want to go because why they weight their comfort and the discomfort. But you<br />
have more discomfort seeing this man bloody every day in front of your life! Mm? Or you come home:<br />
"Oh<br />
shit!<br />
His gonna come. I wonder what time he's gonna come". I can tell you, you live with a man in a house,<br />
you lay in that bed, you're separate beds, you still lay in the bed and wonder and listening what time is he<br />
coming<br />
in.<br />
INTRERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
Because why that door has open sooner or later because why he's got his own key. Or you<br />
know<br />
that car already. You're gonna hear it. When it pulls up. You're gonna look at the time: "Oh, he's<br />
coming<br />
now. I wonder who he's seeing? Although yous got nothing in common.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: You still ask yourself: " Wonder whose he seeing". You know. Because why you know you're<br />
not seeing anybody .<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: Maybe he's coming from his mom's place or from friends. But you still wonder where.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. You question<br />
so much.<br />
JUBEIDA:<br />
You question yourself. And that…is killing you slowly inside. And me I can't kill myself.<br />
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INTERVIEWER: Ja.<br />
JU BEIDA: Life is too beautiful (laughs) Life is worth living. No, but like I say: We're all out there for<br />
punishment.<br />
We're glutton for punishment and…some can take it, some can't. Some want glamour and<br />
they'll…I<br />
know people that will live, they live together, they live happy, but for glamour. They'll even put<br />
on that<br />
pretending kiss and hugs in front of people. When they get home, jere, it's moer to vloek from her<br />
to New<br />
Canada and back.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Mm.<br />
JUBEIDA: And that's it. I know people.<br />
INTERVIEWER: Mm. Putting up a front.<br />
JUBEIDA: Ja. I can't. My life is real (laughs). There's a real life out there. There's a life to live. That's the<br />
way<br />
is.<br />
INTERVIEWER:<br />
Jubeida, jazā kum Állāh, for everything. I really appreciate your time and your effort.<br />
JUBEIDA: Okay,<br />
no problem.<br />
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